Did Shaq really carry Kobe

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

in their 3-peat run? I have said he did a number of times, only to be called a Kobe "hater."

Here are the stats to prove I am not hating, only telling the truth.




1999-2000 Finals


Shaq scored 43/40/33/36/35/41. He shot 96-157. He averaged 38 PPG and shot 61 % from the field.


Kobe scored 14/2/28/8/26. He shot 33-90. He averaged 15.6 PPG and shot 37% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. He didn't score below 33 in any of the games and Kobe scored below 10 twice. He also didn't have a 30 point game and shot poorly from the field.


2000-2001 Finals

Shaq scored 44/28/30/34/29. He shot 63-110. He averaged 33 PPG and shot 57% from the field.

Kobe scored 15/31/32/19/26. He shot 44-106. He averaged 24.6 PPG and shot 42% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. In this series Shaq didn't score below 28 and averaged 9 more points a game. He also shot 15% better from the field. Kobe had 3 games where he was under Shaq's low for the series and scored less than 20 in two games as well.

2001-2002 Finals

Shaq scored 36/40/34/34. He shot 50-84. He averaged 36 PPG and shot 60% from the field.

Kobe scored 22/24/36/25. He shot 36-70. He averaged 26.8 PPG and shot 51% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. In this 4 game series Shaq once again averaged 9 more points a game and shot 9% better from the field. He didn't score below 34 in this series, while Kobe only had one 30 point game.



Overall advantage- Shaq. The numbers don't lie in these 3 championship series. Shaq averaged a total of 35.7 PPG during the Three-peat. He only scored under 30 two times in 15 games, that's phenominal.

Kobe averaged only 22.3 PPG. That's 13.4 PPG less than Shaq averaged. He scored over 30 only 3 times in 14 games. While being held to under 20 in 5 of those games.


Shaq carried Kobe and the Lakers. The stats prove it.

[Darkthug]

Good work.

[Heretik32]

Mhh.. IHMO they complemeted each other, no real "carrying" being done. Perfect fit for that season.

[mjbulls23]

But how can you argue proof? There is only one proof, only one set of stats. These are them, you can't argue against it.

not stating my opinion, just saying how I predict the thread will end up


but if you want my opinion, yes Shaq was the main reason they won, but KB was also very important to those teams, so I wouldn't use the word "carried"

[BIGSHOT]

The WCF were the true Finals for the Lakers.BTW how do those numbers prove Shaq "carried" Kobe? Looks to me like a dominant 1 st option having a dominant series. It's not like Kobe was avg 14 PPG or something. BTW 99-00 Kobe was not a superstar yet.

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

The WCF were the true Finals for the Lakers.BTW how do those numbers prove Shaq "carried" Kobe? Looks to me like a dominant 1 st option having a dominant series. It's not like Kobe was avg 14 PPG or something. BTW 99-00 Kobe was not a superstar yet.

He averaged 13 points more a game than Kobe throughout the Three-peat.

And I didn't even include the rebounds. Kobe only shot 85 less times than Shaq did, and he could have easily had 50+ shots if he had played the 2nd and 3rd game in the first Finals series.

So I don't really see how the first option excuse works there.

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

I just want to add, that I am not "hating" on Kobe what-so-ever. He is obviously a top player in this league and has been for a while now. I am just simply looking at the stats and making my personal opinion on what I honestly believe.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Replace Shaq with anyone else from that era then you wouldn't have seen Kobe getting one ring even with Phil Jackson...

[ihatetimthomas]

Shaq was the main reason they won. Yes that is true. But no one man can win it by himself. I dont care about the stats. No Kobe=No titles. Plain and simple. You can argue all you want that Shaq "carried" him but thats just not true. Both were needed to 3-peat. This is just another Kobe hating thread. We all know Shaq was the main guy on the Lakers, but Kobe was needed to win. I know they dont win shyt w/o Shaq. Shaq was at his prime and so dominate that no one could handle him. He was their MVP and was the focal point. But theres no reason to say he carried Kobe bc Kobe played well and hit big shots. They won it together. End Thread

[DuMa]

Shaq was the most dominant during the 3peat. only after around 2003 did Kobe's ego come into play and started the rift.

[mjbulls23]

LuCKy_JuNiOr


do you mind me asking who your favorite team/player is?

[Ryansrams]

FG% has nothing to do with he is a 7ft 340pound guy that just dunks and shoots 3 ft hooks. Since when is a center and a 2 guard suppose to be compared on FG%. I guess you can say Kobe carried Bynum to the top of FG% in the league until he got hurt. Kobe haters are so damn cute:oldlol:

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

do you mind me asking who your favorite team/player is?

Suns and Nash. KJ is my all-time favorite though.

I really wasn't a Sun fan until I moved down to Vegas about 14 years ago.

Closest team around and I make that yearly trip to PHX to watch them and the DBacks play every year now. :D

[BIGSHOT]

somebody post their PPS and FGA per game for the latter 2 Finals.and TS% and eFG% to take into account kobes 25%+ adv at the line.

[kingsfan]

End thread...

http://alltalksports.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/shaq-and-kobe.jpg

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

FG% has nothing to do with he is a 7ft 340pound guy that just dunks and shoots 3 ft hooks. Since when is a center and a 2 guard suppose to be compared on FG%. I guess you can say Kobe carried Bynum to the top of FG% in the league until he got hurt. Kobe haters are so damn cute:oldlol:

Kobe shot 4-20 and 8-27 in Games 5 and 6 of the 99-00 series. That's horrible. He also shot 7-22 in Game 1 of the 00-01 series.

He scored 30 three times in 14 games. In those games he shot 23/23/30 shots. Shaq scored 43 points on 31 shots.

[Killer_Instinct]

No.....Slava Medvenko was carried. Kobe actually contributed.

[gts]

shaq was the number one option in an offense designed to use his unique skill sets, every player on the team's roster played a role in making sure the system went through shaq first... that being said did shaq carry the lakers?

lets look at win shares, the only true value of a players worth on a team and how many wins that can be attributed to that players performance
and lets look at them for the season because A. i can't find the for just the playoffs so we'll look at the season and the playoffs combined B because a championship is not won on the post season alone

99 2000 season
shaq 58 win shares
kobe 33 win shares

2000-01
shaq 49
kobe 37

2001-02
shaq 38
kobe 37

2002-03
shaq 40
kobe 45

so we can see that shaq did carry the team to titles, but he certainly did not do it alone

[miller-time]

Shaq was the main reason they won. Yes that is true. But no one man can win it by himself. I dont care about the stats. No Kobe=No titles. Plain and simple. You can argue all you want that Shaq "carried" him but thats just not true. Both were needed to 3-peat.

replace kobe with someone else like iverson would they have won? yes. without another star/superstar? maybe not.

[RoseCity07]

Not going to read your post, not going to go over the numbers anymore, the answer to this question is YES.

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

it has nothing to do with you. :lol

Just thought you were a Lakers fan by coincidence


Oh, :lol. I suppose I had a chance to be, but something about KJ caught my attention to the Suns. Living in Vegas with no sports team is kind of lame. Also I was born in Syracuse, New York, but moved at age 4. :banana:

[YAWN]

Mhh.. IHMO they complemeted each other, no real "carrying" being done. Perfect fit for that season.

I agree. However Shaq was definitely the bigger reason they won. Kobe had his moments but the only real series i can recall KB playing better than shaq in would be 2000-2001? WCF against the Spurs, He averaged around 34 while shaq averaged around 25.

[ihatetimthomas]

replace kobe with someone else like iverson would they have won? yes. without another star/superstar? maybe not.


You never know...I didnt say Kobe was the reason they won. I said he was needed along w/ shaq to win. People keep trying to say Shaq carried him or Kobe was the reason, but fact is, they won it together and wouldnt have won w/o each other. They couldve won a title w/ AI and Shaq, but I believe, and this is my opinion, that they wouldn't have been as dominate. The diff. is is Kobe is a premier defender and AI is not. Kobe got it done on both ends of the court while defending the opposing teams best wing player

[Jorn444Lakers]

Kobe shot 4-20 and 8-27 in Games 5 and 6 of the 99-00 series. That's horrible. He also shot 7-22 in Game 1 of the 00-01 series.

He scored 30 three times in 14 games. In those games he shot 23/23/30 shots. Shaq scored 43 points on 31 shots.

And shaq was shooting long-range jumpers of course.

But anyways, I don't think you're going to get an argument from any reasonable laker fan that shaq was the best player on that team and was their number 1 go-to guy.

Where I tend to draw the line is when people say shaq "carried" kobe to a title like kobe was some scrub role-player who rode shaq's back all the way to every title. Like someone said earlier, both players complimented eachother. If you actually WATCHED THE ****ING GAMES, you can see that kobe had some HUGE games against WC foes, and a lot of times "carried" the team when shaq was out with foul trouble in the fourth and shaq couldn't be counted on to not be counted on to make free throws. I actually watched those games, and both players played an important role and fed off each other. Stats never tell the whole story. Kobe was still one of the most dynamic and best in the league when he was playing with shaq.

And like someone said earlier, i don't take shooting % into account when you are comparing the two because one is a sg and one is a C... taking totally different shots.

[BIGSHOT]

Kobe was every bit as important as shaq.

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

replace kobe with someone else like iverson would they have won? yes. without another star/superstar? maybe not.

Exactly my point, you can take Kobe off the team and add per-say Allen Iverson. Or a prime Grant Hill. And the Lakers still win titles.

If you take Shaq out, you got nothing.

[Jorn444Lakers]

Exactly my point, you can take Kobe off the team and add per-say Allen Iverson. Or a prime Grant Hill. And the Lakers still win titles.

If you take Shaq out, you got nothing.

Take shaq out and replace him with who though?

And yes, they would win a title or two, but not be as dominant. Kobe was always the closer for that team and guarded the other teams pest perimiter player

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

You never know...I didnt say Kobe was the reason they won. I said he was needed along w/ shaq to win. People keep trying to say Shaq carried him or Kobe was the reason, but fact is, they won it together and wouldnt have won w/o each other. They couldve won a title w/ AI and Shaq, but I believe, and this is my opinion, that they wouldn't have been as dominate. The diff. is is Kobe is a premier defender and AI is not. Kobe got it done on both ends of the court while defending the opposing teams best wing player


Shaq already won another title without Kobe, he won it with another "star" at the 2 Guard position. And Shaq wasn't even in his prime. Kobe hasn't won one without Shaq, yet.

[YAWN]

Exactly my point, you can take Kobe off the team and add per-say Allen Iverson. Or a prime Grant Hill. And the Lakers still win titles.

If you take Shaq out, you got nothing.
:confusedshrug:

i can do that too...take Shaq off the team and add per-say Tim Duncan. Or a prime Hakeem. And the Lakers still win titles.

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

:confusedshrug:

i can do that too...take Shaq off the team and add per-say Tim Duncan. Or a prime Hakeem. And the Lakers still win titles.

You're adding a player that would have been better than Kobe Bryant in those years. I am adding players who aren't superior to Shaq but still good.

Add someone who was around Kobe's talent level or PPG in any of those seasons. Then you can ask yourself if they would have won.

[Jorn444Lakers]

Make believe teams in alternate universes are so much fun. Plus, they're pretty solid foundations for basing an argument on. You know, since we know for sure what would have happened in this make believe world.

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

Make believe teams in alternate universes are so much fun. Plus, they're pretty solid foundations for basing an argument on. You know, since we know for sure what would have happened in this make believe world.

Here is an arguement for you.

Kobe has 3 titles, all 3 of which came during Shaq's prime.

Shaq has 4 titles, 3 of which were on the team with Kobe. 1 of which was with another start SG.

Shaq titles without Kobe-1
Kobe titles without Shaq-0

Argue that?

[YAWN]

You're adding a player that would have been better than Kobe Bryant in those years. I am adding players who aren't superior to Shaq but still good.

Add someone who was around Kobe's talent level or PPG in any of those seasons. Then you can ask yourself if they would have won.
Scottie Pippen

haha jk

[Jorn444Lakers]

Here is an arguement for you.

Kobe has 3 titles, all 3 of which came during Shaq's prime.

Shaq has 4 titles, 3 of which were on the team with Kobe. 1 of which was with another start SG.

Shaq titles without Kobe-1
Kobe titles without Shaq-0

Argue that?

Shaq and dwade were carried by the refs. JK

I'm not arguing with you that shaq was the most dominant player on that lakers team :confusedshrug:

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

no this has nothing to do with MJ. At least on my part. I was just using an example

I know, I know, it just seems like that is the main arguement between you to. He thinks Kobe is GOAT and you think MJ is GOAT.

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

Shaq and dwade were carried by the refs. JK



Also I think it would be hard enough to carry Shaq, can you imagine carrying both of them?

That's like 500 lbs. :oldlol:

[BIGSHOT]

Kobe>MJ.Just face it.:pimp:
Better shooter,on ball defender, ball handlers, scorer, more explosive, better 3 point shooter.:pimp:

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

Kobe>MJ.Just face it.:pimp:
Better shooter,on ball defender, ball handlers, scorer, more explosive, better 3 point shooter.:pimp:

Is that you Kobe? Only you would think such a thing.

Kobe>Lebron.

But not Kobe> MJ.

Clearly MJ>Kobe.

Any knowledgeable basketball fan would know this.

[mjbulls23]

Kobe>MJ.Just face it.:pimp:
Better shooter,on ball defender, ball handlers, scorer, more explosive, better 3 point shooter.:pimp:

there we go :applause:

welcome back man :pimp: :banana: :hammertime: :hammertime: :hammertime:

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

there we go :applause:

welcome back man :pimp: :banana:

Coincidence?

Haha, this is quite entertaining, I'm glad this didn't turn out into a hate fest, yet.

[BIGSHOT]

Is that you Kobe? Only you would think such a thing.

Kobe>Lebron.

But not Kobe> MJ.

Clearly MJ>Kobe.

Any knowledgeable basketball fan would know this.
Nope.Kobe>MJ

[BIGSHOT]

there we go :applause:

welcome back man :pimp: :banana: :hammertime: :hammertime: :hammertime:
:confusedshrug:

[mjbulls23]

Coincidence?

Haha, this is quite entertaining, I'm glad this didn't turn out into a hate fest, yet.

ya the haters will be here soon, if they haven't been banned already

[mjbulls23]

:confusedshrug:

just a little humor :lol

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

ya the haters will be here soon, if they haven't been banned already


I heard they come back with new names? Interesting, should ban the IP address.

[Ryansrams]

Kobe shot 4-20 and 8-27 in Games 5 and 6 of the 99-00 series. That's horrible. He also shot 7-22 in Game 1 of the 00-01 series.

He scored 30 three times in 14 games. In those games he shot 23/23/30 shots. Shaq scored 43 points on 31 shots.
Since we are so worried who carried who in the championship please bring up D.Wades and Shaq in their championship. When Shaq got all of the false publicity about bringing a chip to Miami. Wade played out of his mind Shaq was just fat and horrible that whole series

[evinecz]

Yes of course Shaq carried Kobe.

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

Nope.Kobe>MJ

No, No, and no again. Kobe may be the best in the game right now, but he is not GOAT.

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

Since we are so worried who carried who in the championship please bring up D.Wades and Shaq in their championship. When Shaq got all of the false publicity about bringing a chip to Miami. Wade played out of his mind Shaq was just fat and horrible that whole series

Ok? Does that have any relevance to what I am saying?

The point was Shaq carried Kobe to the three-peat, I could care less who carried who with Miami.

Shaq wasn't in his prime anymore.

BTW, I am not a Shaq homer?

[Allstar24]

Replace Shaq with anyone else from that era then you wouldn't have seen Kobe getting one ring even with Phil Jackson...
Since we all seem to know what "would have happened"...replace Shaq with Duncan. Duncan's probably the most unselfish player and wouldn't have any ego issues with KB24. They'd win at least 5 championships together. Guaranteed :D

By the way very refreshing thread :sleeping

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

Yes of course Shaq carried Kobe.

BTW, Iverson = one of my favorite player's ever. Isn't he fun to watch?

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

Since we all seem to know what "would have happened"...replace Shaq with Duncan. Duncan's probably the most unselfish player and wouldn't have any ego issues with KB24. They'd win at least 5 championships together. Guaranteed :D

By the way very refreshing thread :sleeping

Point is take someone who wasn't as good or better than Kobe those 3 years and they don't win the title.

Kobe can't do it as the go to guy.

[Ryansrams]

Ok? Does that have any relevance to what I am saying?

The point was Shaq carried Kobe to the three-peat, I could care less who carried who with Miami.

Shaq wasn't in his prime anymore.

BTW, I am not a Shaq homer?
Bottom line is shaq would have not won without Kobe

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

Bottom line is shaq would have not won without Kobe
How?! He won with D-Wade? Who isn't Kobe.

[Ryansrams]

How?! He won with D-Wade? Who isn't Kobe.
Ok back that up bring the numbers out Mr. number lover.

[BIGSHOT]

No, No, and no again. Kobe may be the best in the game right now, but he is not GOAT.
Yes, he is the G.O.A.T. That's why he's gonna win the chip this with no other great player-unlike Jordan who needed a top 5 player.:pimp:

[BIGSHOT]

Point is take someone who wasn't as good or better than Kobe those 3 years and they don't win the title.

Kobe can't do it as the go to guy.
can't do it as the go to guy?isnt his team a championship ccontender at the moment?:confusedshrug:

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Bottom line is shaq would have not won without Kobe

true that.
without Kobe, Shaq would not have been in the playoffs.
Kobe carried them during the regular season, while Shaq nursed his toe.
Shaq carried them in the playoffs, except for certain stints where Kobe was superhuman (just ask Portland fans).

[gts]

true that.
without Kobe, Shaq would not have been in the playoffs.
Kobe carried them during the regular season, while Shaq nursed his toe.
Shaq carried them in the playoffs, except for certain stints where Kobe was superhuman (just ask Portland fans).
yep... people forget that during those campionship seasons it was shaq who came into camp out of shape, and it was the lakers that carried shaq until he got up to speed....


Ok back that up bring the numbers out Mr. number lover. don't count on it... lol

[R I O T]

can't do it as the go to guy?isnt his team a championship ccontender at the moment?:confusedshrug:He better be with Pau Gasol around.

You have to realize he hasn't even 'lead' his team past the second round yet. I'll gladly give him the benefit of doubt when/if he wins a Championship WITHOUT Shaq. If he's the "greatest of All-time" like you all proclaim him to be then that shouldn't be that hard to do...

[BIGSHOT]

He better be with Pau Gasol around.

You have to realize he hasn't even 'lead' his team past the second round yet. I'll gladly give him the benefit of doubt when/if he wins a Championship WITHOUT Shaq. If he's the "greatest of All-time" like you all proclaim him to be then that shouldn't be that hard to do...

Pau Gasol ain't nothing special.Please.Every great player needs another 2nd option to succed.:rolleyes:
Its going to be fun to watch Kobe get his 4th ring at the age of 29.:bowdown:

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

He better be with Pau Gasol around.

You have to realize he hasn't even 'lead' his team past the second round yet.

would you expect ANY PLAYER to lead their team to the playoffs when their STARTERS were Kwame Brown, Smush Parker, and Luke Walton? ANY PLAYER?

but Kobe DID...where they ran into the #1 or #2 seed. what do you expect? geezzz. Its not like he was playing with even 1 all-star.

[SoCalMike]

would you expect ANY PLAYER to lead their team to the playoffs when their STARTERS were Kwame Brown, Smush Parker, and Luke Walton? ANY PLAYER?

but Kobe DID...where they ran into the #1 or #2 seed. what do you expect? geezzz. Its not like he was playing with even 1 all-star.

They continue to think irrationally on the subject....

p.s. you left off Brian Cook....lol



:pimp:

[kobeFANNER]

Here is an arguement for you.

Kobe has 3 titles, all 3 of which came during Shaq's prime.

Shaq has 4 titles, 3 of which were on the team with Kobe. 1 of which was with another start SG.

Shaq titles without Kobe-1
Kobe titles without Shaq-0

Argue that

2006 Miami Heat Playoff Roster

A. Walker
U. Haslem
S. O'Neal
J. Williams
D. Wade
G. Payton
A. Mourning
J. Posey

2006 Los Angeles Laker Playoff Roster

S.Parker
K.Bryant
L.Walton
L.Odom
K.Brown
S.Vujacic
B.Cook
D.George

Let's all take a really, really, really, deep breath, clear our heads, and take a look at these rosters. Obviously the Heat knew they were going to be in trouble as shaqs decline became more apparent.

The Lakers knew that they had to rebuild. Look at all those players on the Lakers roster, they are all very very very young. The only thing that wen't wrong is Kobe carrying the Lakers and keeping them from having a Lottery pick(Besides Bynum), but who can blame the guy he's a warrior.

[ShowTime LA]

You can say that, but you can also say that without one another, their would have been no championships.

[Ryansrams]

Stat Boy where are you. I have another stat for you to look up, take a look at Gasol's Fg% since he became a Laker. Thank Kobe for that improvment:roll:

[ihatetimthomas]

Shaq won another title bc of Wade. How about we say Wade "carried" O'Neal to his 4th title? Trade wade and kobe on the heat that year, Kobe "carries" diesel to his 4th title. Shaq was in his prime w/ the Lakers. Kobe was not

I just dont understand why people cannot accept that it was both of them that led them to their 3-peat. Shaq was the main option, but Kobe held his own on both ends of the court. They needed each other. Plain and simple

[gts]

You can say that, but you can also say that without one another, their would have been no championships.
just go back to my win shares post early in the thread it shows shaq certainly played the largest part in lakers wins early on, but he didn't do it anywhere near by himself and the final two trips to the finals it was kobe who played as big a part or bigger

[shaoyut]

shaq carried the lakers semi carried the heat and is pulling phoenix down with his weight

[shaoyut]

Shaq won another title bc of Wade. How about we say Wade "carried" O'Neal to his 4th title? Trade wade and kobe on the heat that year, Kobe "carries" diesel to his 4th title. Shaq was in his prime w/ the Lakers. Kobe was not

I just dont understand why people cannot accept that it was both of them that led them to their 3-peat. Shaq was the main option, but Kobe held his own on both ends of the court. They needed each other. Plain and simple
:D

[shaoyut]

2006 Miami Heat Playoff Roster

A. Walker
U. Haslem
S. O'Neal
J. Williams
D. Wade
G. Payton
A. Mourning
J. Posey

2006 Los Angeles Laker Playoff Roster

S.Parker
K.Bryant
L.Walton
L.Odom
K.Brown
S.Vujacic
B.Cook
D.George

Let's all take a really, really, really, deep breath, clear our heads, and take a look at these rosters. Obviously the Heat knew they were going to be in trouble as shaqs decline became more apparent.

The Lakers knew that they had to rebuild. Look at all those players on the Lakers roster, they are all very very very young. The only thing that wen't wrong is Kobe carrying the Lakers and keeping them from having a Lottery pick(Besides Bynum), but who can blame the guy he's a warrior.

lol kwame brown

[Jorn444Lakers]

I know you're not arguing about that, are opinions on Kobe getting carried just differ.

At least you state what you think and you have some stats and some good points.

I'm starting to learn who the "true" Laker fans are on this site.

I just think you're grossly underrating kobe's contribution during the dynasty years.

Shaq always came into the season out of shape, and kobe "carried" them during the regular season while shaq worked on his conditioning. Kobe was the go-to-guy in the 4th quarters for the lakers, both because shaq would get into fall trouble/foul out and he couldnt be counted on to make free throws.

Again, you seem like a reasonable poster, and I have nothing against you, but the way you present your argument you make it seem like kobe was a scrub role player who was just along for the shaq parade.

They needed eachother for those titles. I honestly belive if you replaced kobe with a comparable player on that team, they wouldn't have been as dominant. They would win a title or two, but not become a dynasty.

[clayton]

LOL. They won it together and haters like to seperate Kobe & Shaq. Losers. If you actually watched those games instead of looking for stats from the interweb, Kobe's effort helped the team to wins. Shaq needed Kobe. Kobe needed Shaq. END.

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

Ok back that up bring the numbers out Mr. number lover.

He won the Finals with D-Wade, you're an idiot if you can't figure out that Kobe and D-Wade are not the same people.

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

I just think you're grossly underrating kobe's contribution during the dynasty years.

Shaq always came into the season out of shape, and kobe "carried" them during the regular season while shaq worked on his conditioning. Kobe was the go-to-guy in the 4th quarters for the lakers, both because shaq would get into fall trouble/foul out and he couldnt be counted on to make free throws.

Again, you seem like a reasonable poster, and I have nothing against you, but the way you present your argument you make it seem like kobe was a scrub role player who was just along for the shaq parade.

They needed eachother for those titles. I honestly belive if you replaced kobe with a comparable player on that team, they wouldn't have been as dominant. They would win a title or two, but not become a dynasty.

Right, we are all entitled to our own opinions. Like I stated, Kobe is one of the top, if not the best player in the game right now, but all I am saying is Shaq carried him to his 3 rings.

Kobe was not a "scrub," but he wasn't the go to guy, Shaq did it as the go to guy. And people that are considered all time greats have as well.

Tim Duncan and Michael Jordan, just to name two that people will recognize and can't argue with.

Also about Kobe carrying that team to the playoffs. My outlook on any season is if you make the playoffs and how you perform in them. Regular season is just for seeding and the record books. IMO.

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

Stat Boy where are you. I have another stat for you to look up, take a look at Gasol's Fg% since he became a Laker. Thank Kobe for that improvment:roll:

I have a life?

Also he has only played 27 games with the Lakers. Give him a full 82, we'll see where his FG% is at.

[Lo1a]

in their 3-peat run? I have said he did a number of times, only to be called a Kobe "hater."

Here are the stats to prove I am not hating, only telling the truth.




1999-2000 Finals


Shaq scored 43/40/33/36/35/41. He shot 96-157. He averaged 38 PPG and shot 61 % from the field.


Kobe scored 14/2/28/8/26. He shot 33-90. He averaged 15.6 PPG and shot 37% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. He didn't score below 33 in any of the games and Kobe scored below 10 twice. He also didn't have a 30 point game and shot poorly from the field.


2000-2001 Finals

Shaq scored 44/28/30/34/29. He shot 63-110. He averaged 33 PPG and shot 57% from the field.

Kobe scored 15/31/32/19/26. He shot 44-106. He averaged 24.6 PPG and shot 42% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. In this series Shaq didn't score below 28 and averaged 9 more points a game. He also shot 15% better from the field. Kobe had 3 games where he was under Shaq's low for the series and scored less than 20 in two games as well.

2001-2002 Finals

Shaq scored 36/40/34/34. He shot 50-84. He averaged 36 PPG and shot 60% from the field.

Kobe scored 22/24/36/25. He shot 36-70. He averaged 26.8 PPG and shot 51% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. In this 4 game series Shaq once again averaged 9 more points a game and shot 9% better from the field. He didn't score below 34 in this series, while Kobe only had one 30 point game.



Overall advantage- Shaq. The numbers don't lie in these 3 championship series. Shaq averaged a total of 35.7 PPG during the Three-peat. He only scored under 30 two times in 15 games, that's phenominal.

Kobe averaged only 22.3 PPG. That's 13.4 PPG less than Shaq averaged. He scored over 30 only 3 times in 14 games. While being held to under 20 in 5 of those games.


Shaq carried Kobe and the Lakers. The stats prove it.


You can't really put up stats solely from the Finals to make your argument. The teams they faced in the Finals; Pacers, Sixers, Nets weren't better teams than they faced in the WCF. You have to take into consideration what it took for the Lakers to GET to the Finals. They had to go through the tougher Western Conference and without Kobe's contributions in that race there would be no Finals MVP for Shaquille. Kobe was the one that killed the Spurs, the Kings, etc... enroute to the easy pickings for Shaq in the Finals. So yes Shaq deserved all of his Finals MVPs but without Kobe he might not have had the chance to get one of them much less three. Just my opinion.

[Loki]

Kobe was the one that killed the Spurs, the Kings, etc... enroute to the easy pickings for Shaq in the Finals. So yes Shaq deserved all of his Finals MVPs but without Kobe he might not have had the chance to get one of them much less three. Just my opinion.

You should really go look up the numbers, because they really don't support this argument at all. Kobe arguably outplayed Shaq in one, possibly two playoff series -- Western conference or otherwise -- during the 3 year championship run. And even that isn't clear-cut. For instance, in one of those series, Kobe averaged 33/7/7/51% FG while Shaq averaged 28/13/3 blk/57% FG (vs. SA in 2001).

So yeah. No.

[Manute for Ever!]

Nope.Kobe>MJ

KingD, you will only have a valid point when Kobes resume even slightly resembles this in any way, shape, or form:

~6x NBA Champion (1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997 1998)
~5x NBA MVP (1988, 1991, 1992, 1996, 1998)
~6x NBA Finals MVP (1991-1993, 1996-1998)
~1x NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1988)
~10x All-NBA First Team Selection (1987-1993, 1996-1998)
~1x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1985)
~9x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1988-1993, 1996-1998)
~1985 NBA Rookie of the Year
~1985 NBA All-Rookie Team
~14x NBA All-Star (1985-1993, 1996-1998, 2002-2003)
~3x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1988, 1996, 1998)
~2x NBA Slam Dunk Contest winner (1987, 1988)
~NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
~1x NCAA Men's Basketball Champion (1982)
~1982 ACC Freshman of the Year
~1984 ACC Men's Basketball Player of the Year
~1984 USBWA College Player of the Year
~1984 Naismith College Player of the Year
~1984 John R. Wooden Award
~1984 Adolph Rupp Trophy
~1991 Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year
~2000 ESPY Athlete of the Century
~1990's ESPY Male Athlete Decade Award
~1990's ESPY Pro Basketballer Decade Award
~2x Olympic Gold Medal

But currently, they it looks like this and time is running out:

~10-time NBA All-Star
~9-time All-NBA Selection
~7-time All-Defensive Selection
~3-time NBA Champion
~2-time NBA All-Star MVP
~2-time NBA Scoring Champion
~1997 NBA Slam Dunk Champion
~1996 Naismith Prep Player of the Year
~1996-1997 All Rookie Second Team

Not quite as impressive, is it? Especially without multiple MVPs (or even 1), a DPOY, Finals MVP. Let's not mention that Jordan missed two years of his prime, so all of this was achieved in 13 seasons (with the exception of an all-star appearence) and that Kobe is in his eleventh.
Don't get me wrong, Kobe can play, but you come off sounding like dumb kid with a bad case of extreme idol worship when you make the statements that you do.

[BIGSHOT]

I think you're using the wrong word.Shaq did not "carry" bryant.That would imply that Kobe was some scrub and not a guy who was the best peremeter player in the game.:rolleyes:

[BIGSHOT]

KingD, you will only have a valid point when Kobes resume even slightly resembles this in any way, shape, or form:

~6x NBA Champion (1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997 1998)
~5x NBA MVP (1988, 1991, 1992, 1996, 1998)
~6x NBA Finals MVP (1991-1993, 1996-1998)
~1x NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1988)
~10x All-NBA First Team Selection (1987-1993, 1996-1998)
~1x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1985)
~9x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1988-1993, 1996-1998)
~1985 NBA Rookie of the Year
~1985 NBA All-Rookie Team
~14x NBA All-Star (1985-1993, 1996-1998, 2002-2003)
~3x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1988, 1996, 1998)
~2x NBA Slam Dunk Contest winner (1987, 1988)
~NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
~1x NCAA Men's Basketball Champion (1982)
~1982 ACC Freshman of the Year
~1984 ACC Men's Basketball Player of the Year
~1984 USBWA College Player of the Year
~1984 Naismith College Player of the Year
~1984 John R. Wooden Award
~1984 Adolph Rupp Trophy
~1991 Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year
~2000 ESPY Athlete of the Century
~1990's ESPY Male Athlete Decade Award
~1990's ESPY Pro Basketballer Decade Award
~2x Olympic Gold Medal

But currently, they look like this and time is running out:

~10-time NBA All-Star
~9-time All-NBA Selection
~7-time All-Defensive Selection
~3-time NBA Champion
~2-time NBA All-Star MVP
~2-time NBA Scoring Champion
~1997 NBA Slam Dunk Champion
~1996 Naismith Prep Player of the Year
~1996-1997 All Rookie Second Team

Not quite as impressive, is it? Especially without multiple MVPs (or even 1), a DPOY, Finals MVP. Let's not mention that Jordan missed two years of his prime, so all of this was achieved in 13 seasons (with the exception of an all-star appearence) and that Kobe is in his eleventh.
All that becomes moot when you consider that Kobe has only had 4 yrs a the man on his team. You have to compare them in similar situations.
Besides Kobe is still the better scorer, shooter,on ball defender,more explosive etc.:pimp:

[BIGSHOT]

And what the hell are you listing the Jordan college accomplishements first.LOLOLOLO

[Lo1a]

You should really go look up the numbers, because they really don't support this argument at all. Kobe arguably outplayed Shaq in one, possibly two playoff series -- Western conference or otherwise -- during the 3 year championship run. And even that isn't clear-cut. For instance, in one of those series, Kobe averaged 33/7/7/51% FG while Shaq averaged 28/13/3 blk/57% FG (vs. SA in 2001).

So yeah. No.

Still supports my argument that the route the Finals was where the real race was. Who cares what numbers Shaq or Kobe put up against a pathetic Eastern Conference team? The fact remains that in order to even GET there, Shaq needed Kobe just as much as Kobe needed Shaq. There were a tandem. A true dynamic duo, the ying and the yang. When they were clicking, nobody was beating them. Period. You can just say insert random 2 guard and you would have gotten the same result. Doesn't work that way. Too bad they couldn't put aside all the childish bull****. They were special together.

[dynasty1978]

Here is an arguement for you.

Kobe has 3 titles, all 3 of which came during Shaq's prime.

Shaq has 4 titles, 3 of which were on the team with Kobe. 1 of which was with another start SG.

Shaq titles without Kobe-1
Kobe titles without Shaq-0

Argue that?

Too Easy. D-Wade carried Shaq to the title. Since you chose to compare shaq to kobe's stats in the NBA finals as your premise for "carrying" the same logic applies to wade and shaq, who was a non-factor against dallas. Check the stats buddy.

[Manute for Ever!]

And what the hell are you listing the Jordan college accomplishements first.LOLOLOLO

Just pointing out achievments, ignore the college ones if you want, it still isn't a debate. I'll clarify it for you in my next post.

[Loki]

Still supports my argument that the route the Finals was where the real race was. Who cares what numbers Shaq or Kobe put up against a pathetic Eastern Conference team? The fact remains that in order to even GET there, Shaq needed Kobe just as much as Kobe needed Shaq. There were a tandem. A true dynamic duo, the ying and the yang. When they were clicking, nobody was beating them. Period. You can just say insert random 2 guard and you would have gotten the same result. Doesn't work that way. Too bad they couldn't put aside all the childish bull****. They were special together.

Yeah, but my point was that you're wrong. If you look strictly at the Western conference playoffs from 2000-2002, Shaq clearly outplayed Kobe. So your point is invalid.

[Laker4Lyfe]

in their 3-peat run? I have said he did a number of times, only to be called a Kobe "hater."

Here are the stats to prove I am not hating, only telling the truth.




1999-2000 Finals


Shaq scored 43/40/33/36/35/41. He shot 96-157. He averaged 38 PPG and shot 61 % from the field.


Kobe scored 14/2/28/8/26. He shot 33-90. He averaged 15.6 PPG and shot 37% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. He didn't score below 33 in any of the games and Kobe scored below 10 twice. He also didn't have a 30 point game and shot poorly from the field.


2000-2001 Finals

Shaq scored 44/28/30/34/29. He shot 63-110. He averaged 33 PPG and shot 57% from the field.

Kobe scored 15/31/32/19/26. He shot 44-106. He averaged 24.6 PPG and shot 42% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. In this series Shaq didn't score below 28 and averaged 9 more points a game. He also shot 15% better from the field. Kobe had 3 games where he was under Shaq's low for the series and scored less than 20 in two games as well.

2001-2002 Finals

Shaq scored 36/40/34/34. He shot 50-84. He averaged 36 PPG and shot 60% from the field.

Kobe scored 22/24/36/25. He shot 36-70. He averaged 26.8 PPG and shot 51% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. In this 4 game series Shaq once again averaged 9 more points a game and shot 9% better from the field. He didn't score below 34 in this series, while Kobe only had one 30 point game.



Overall advantage- Shaq. The numbers don't lie in these 3 championship series. Shaq averaged a total of 35.7 PPG during the Three-peat. He only scored under 30 two times in 15 games, that's phenominal.

Kobe averaged only 22.3 PPG. That's 13.4 PPG less than Shaq averaged. He scored over 30 only 3 times in 14 games. While being held to under 20 in 5 of those games.


Shaq carried Kobe and the Lakers. The stats prove it.


:sleeping:sleeping:sleeping Can I ask you a serious question? What's your point? This topic has been discussed ad naseum so what's your point?

Wouldn't you rather talk about what Shaq did tonight for the Suns? Why talk about the past? Why can't we talk about RIGHT now?

[dynasty1978]

:sleeping:sleeping:sleeping Can I ask you a serious question? What's your point? This topic has been discussed ad naseum so what's your point?

Wouldn't you rather talk about what Shaq did tonight for the Suns? Why talk about the past? Why can't we talk about RIGHT now?

Because it's too painful for haters to see Kobe succeed and Shaq get his squad swept....again....gotta go to their happy place.

[BIGSHOT]

Just pointing out achievments, ignore the college ones if you want, it still isn't a debate. I'll clarify it for you in my next post.
It is a debate.You can't simply list their accomplishments because Kobe HAS ONLY HAD 4 YRS AS THE MAN.:pimp:

[BIGSHOT]

Kobe-4 career 60+ games.Only 4 yrs as the man.
Mj-4 60+ games.14 yrs as the man.:roll: :roll: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[konex]

Why don't you post the stats of all the series during those title runs. There were no good bigs in the EC so Shaq dominated in the Finals..

[Manute for Ever!]

This is for you, KingD.

Jordans stats:

~6x NBA Champion (1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997 1998) , ~Kobe 3x
~5x NBA MVP (1988, 1991, 1992, 1996, 1998) , ~Kobe 0x
~6x NBA Finals MVP (1991-1993, 1996-1998), ~Kobe 0x
~10x Scoring Champion, ~ Kobe 2x
~1x NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1988), ~Kobe 0x
~10x All-NBA First Team Selection (1987-1993, 1996-1998), ~Kobe 5x
~1x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1985), ~Kobe 2x
~9x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1988-1993, 1996-1998), ~Kobe 5x
~1985 NBA Rookie of the Year, ~ Not Kobe
~1985 NBA All-Rookie Team, ~Kobe - Second Team
~14x NBA All-Star (1985-1993, 1996-1998, 2002-2003), ~Kobe 10x
~3x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1988, 1996, 1998), ~Kobe 2x
~2x NBA Slam Dunk Contest winner (1987, 1988) ~Kobe 1x
~2x Olympic Gold Medal, ~Kobe 0x

[Lo1a]

Yeah, but my point was that you're wrong. If you look strictly at the Western conference playoffs from 2000-2002, Shaq clearly outplayed Kobe. So your point is invalid.

Clearly outplayed? That's not true. Did you actually watch the games or are you just a stat watcher? It's not always just about numbers. Anyway, my initial response was for the OP. Your reputation precedes you so I'm not about to argue with you. :)

[Manute for Ever!]

It is a debate.You can't simply list their accomplishments because Kobe HAS ONLY HAD 4 YRS AS THE MAN.:pimp:

But you said this...


Kobe was every bit as important as shaq.

That was in reference to all of the titles MORE THAN FOUR YEARS AGO, implying that he was equally "the man". Selective memory is a ***** when you can't remember what you have selected.

[Jimmy2k8]

:rolleyes: How many times has this subject been discussed? Billions of times.

Question: Why can't people forget the past and move on?


Its freakin 2008 and its been 4 years since Shaq and Kobe split up.

[MaxFly]

I'm not sure "carried" would be the proper term. "Carries" conveys the sense that Shaq managed to get the Lakers those championships not with Bryant's help, but rather, inspite of him. It's almost as if Bryant were dead weight and made no significant contributions to the team with Shaq having to pick up the slack that Bryant created. It would be accurate to say that Shaq contributed the most, but to say that he "carried" Bryant is taking it a little far. Your coach doesn't sit you on the bench at the end of close games in order to have the player that you're supposed to be carrying take over.

[MaxFly]

:rolleyes: How many times has this subject been discussed? Billions of times.

Question: Why can't people forget the past and move on?


Its freakin 2008 and its been 4 years since Shaq and Kobe split up.

4 year anniversary is coming up?

[Fedor - Laker]

in their 3-peat run? I have said he did a number of times, only to be called a Kobe "hater."

Here are the stats to prove I am not hating, only telling the truth.




1999-2000 Finals


Shaq scored 43/40/33/36/35/41. He shot 96-157. He averaged 38 PPG and shot 61 % from the field.


Kobe scored 14/2/28/8/26. He shot 33-90. He averaged 15.6 PPG and shot 37% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. He didn't score below 33 in any of the games and Kobe scored below 10 twice. He also didn't have a 30 point game and shot poorly from the field.


2000-2001 Finals

Shaq scored 44/28/30/34/29. He shot 63-110. He averaged 33 PPG and shot 57% from the field.

Kobe scored 15/31/32/19/26. He shot 44-106. He averaged 24.6 PPG and shot 42% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. In this series Shaq didn't score below 28 and averaged 9 more points a game. He also shot 15% better from the field. Kobe had 3 games where he was under Shaq's low for the series and scored less than 20 in two games as well.

2001-2002 Finals

Shaq scored 36/40/34/34. He shot 50-84. He averaged 36 PPG and shot 60% from the field.

Kobe scored 22/24/36/25. He shot 36-70. He averaged 26.8 PPG and shot 51% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. In this 4 game series Shaq once again averaged 9 more points a game and shot 9% better from the field. He didn't score below 34 in this series, while Kobe only had one 30 point game.



Overall advantage- Shaq. The numbers don't lie in these 3 championship series. Shaq averaged a total of 35.7 PPG during the Three-peat. He only scored under 30 two times in 15 games, that's phenominal.

Kobe averaged only 22.3 PPG. That's 13.4 PPG less than Shaq averaged. He scored over 30 only 3 times in 14 games. While being held to under 20 in 5 of those games.


Shaq carried Kobe and the Lakers. The stats prove it.

and the sky is blue...honestly, everyone who knows basketball already knows this... Only the delusional Kobe ******gers think otherwise which I'm sure this thread is directed to.

[Jimmy2k8]

4 year anniversary is coming up?



3 1/2 years* or whatever

[MaxFly]

3 1/2 years* or whatever

Wasn't it June of 04? I'm saying... people just want to celebrate the anniversary. Lol

[Jimmy2k8]

Wasn't it June of 04? I'm saying... people just want to celebrate the anniversary. Lol


Still 2 months away.

Whatever day it was, Kobe haters will have their fun day(actually that's basically every day)

Edit: I am drunk so...

[picc84]

Was this thread really necessary? Everyone knows shaq was the cornerstone of those laker teams. **** you and your ****ty thread. :oldlol:

[MMM]

What is there too argue about
Shaq was putting up historic #'s
he was the cornerstone and the main reason why they were winning titles

But kobe was getting better each year and wasn't your average 2nd player
Anyways instead of rehashing old arguments why don't we take time to appreciate kobe for his game.

I wouldn't say i'm a fan of his but i don't want in 5-10 saying i missed out in appreciating a great talent.

[Manute for Ever!]

At the time, Kobe couldn't even carry Shaqs jock

http://www.juvenileclothing.com/kidsunderwear/briefs/kazaam.jpg

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

and the sky is blue...honestly, everyone who knows basketball already knows this... Only the delusional Kobe ******gers think otherwise which I'm sure this thread is directed to.



You're right, I am not in any way, shape, or form directing this to "hate" on the Lakers or Kobe. This is directed to people, who in other threads, have said Kobe won those championships.

He had one better series and it wasn't even THAT much better than the series Shaq.

[amfirst]

Stupid thread, Did Marion carried Nash?? I mean the Suns about to get swept right? Last year they did better with Marion... :applause:

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

Stupid thread, Did Marion carried Nash?? I mean the Suns about to get swept right? Last year they did better with Marion... :applause:

That's your best arguement?

You really know your basketball.

[dynasty1978]

Stupid thread, Did Marion carried Nash?? I mean the Suns about to get swept right? Last year they did better with Marion... :applause:

this is just a deflection thread, hey how is shaq impacting the suns? his pick n roll d has been legendary and what a difference he's making w/his presence alone:cheers:

[Lebron23]

Bottom line is shaq would have not won without Kobe


Bottom line is Shaq won an NBA Championship with Wade in Miami, and he also led the Orlando Magic in the 1995 NBA Finals with Penny Hardaway as his sidekick.

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

this is just a deflection thread, hey how is shaq impacting the suns? his pick n roll d has been legendary and what a difference he's making w/his presence alone:cheers:

Deflection? I wrote this as Game 3 was starting and I am sorry, I am not a homer nut hugger like some of you. I can take a loss and understand that we are playing a superior team.

Shaq is declining and has been. This isn't about the Suns, it's you biased Kobe fans that don't read the posts, or understand anything about basketball.

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

Bottom line is Shaq won an NBA Championship with Wade in Miami, and he also led the Orlando Magic in the 1995 NBA Finals with Penny Hardaway as his sidekick.

He has led 3 different teams to the Finals and won 4 of them.

Kobe has led no teams to the Finals.

[dynasty1978]

Deflection? I wrote this as Game 3 was starting and I am sorry, I am not a homer nut hugger like some of you. I can take a loss and understand that we are playing a superior team.

Shaq is declining and has been. This isn't about the Suns, it's you biased Kobe fans that don't read the posts, or understand anything about basketball.


it's nothing personal, don't get your panties in a bunch, but look at some of the counter arguments (including one i posted earlier in this thread) and you would know that while shaq indeed was a bigger part of the lakers success (not news), you're "carrying" logic is faulty.

[Remix]

And shaq was shooting long-range jumpers of course.

But anyways, I don't think you're going to get an argument from any reasonable laker fan that shaq was the best player on that team and was their number 1 go-to guy.

Where I tend to draw the line is when people say shaq "carried" kobe to a title like kobe was some scrub role-player who rode shaq's back all the way to every title. Like someone said earlier, both players complimented eachother. If you actually WATCHED THE ****ING GAMES, you can see that kobe had some HUGE games against WC foes, and a lot of times "carried" the team when shaq was out with foul trouble in the fourth and shaq couldn't be counted on to not be counted on to make free throws. I actually watched those games, and both players played an important role and fed off each other. Stats never tell the whole story. Kobe was still one of the most dynamic and best in the league when he was playing with shaq.

And like someone said earlier, i don't take shooting % into account when you are comparing the two because one is a sg and one is a C... taking totally different shots.
Did you watch all the games and remember them clearly?

[mjbulls23]

like I said earlier



another thread that will end up in chaos with the same old arguments :sleeping


and I see your intentions LuCKy_JuNiOr, but it is just not going to get through to some of these posters. I've given up trying to get through to Kobe groupies or haters. I'm considering staying out of any Kobe related tread in the future for the reason that it will always end up the same way in the end.



Also the fact that you used the word "carry" when Kobe was actually very important to those championship teams didn't help your case much either :ohwell:

[Loki]

Why don't you post the stats of all the series during those title runs. There were no good bigs in the EC so Shaq dominated in the Finals..

<ahem>


Yeah, but my point was that you're wrong. If you look strictly at the Western conference playoffs from 2000-2002, Shaq clearly outplayed Kobe. So your point is invalid.

Also, how was Kobe's playoff comp at the SG spot any better than Shaq's comp at the C position during those title runs? Hell, in the one all-time level playoff series that Kobe's ever had (this Denver series might go down as his second), which was when he averaged 33/7/7/51% vs. SA in 2001, he did it against a 52 year old Terry Porter and 6'4" Antonio Daniels -- real defensive stalwarts and noted as great players (sarcasm). :rolleyes: Meanwhile, Shaq that series averaged 28/13/3 blk/57% against two of the best defensive big men to ever play the game, while being doubled by them and with help defense from the entire team.

Seriously, with the SG's and swings that Kobe faced in the playoffs from 2000-2002, he should have DOMINATED them to an even greater extent if he's so superior, since his comp wasn't any better than Shaq's. I'll list them if you'd like...

[Loki]

Clearly outplayed? That's not true. Did you actually watch the games or are you just a stat watcher? It's not always just about numbers. Anyway, my initial response was for the OP. Your reputation precedes you so I'm not about to argue with you. :)

Wow, another Kobe fan who hates objective numbers. Shocking. :rolleyes: :violin:

News flash: When one player averaged 29/13/3 blk/58% FG while being the focus of the defense and the other averages 25/5/6/42% FG while not being doubled, the first player certainly played better despite whatever late game heroics the second player pulled.

[gpfanz]

Shaq is 300lbs u think Kobe carried him :roll:

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

:cheers:
Shaq is 300lbs u think Kobe carried him :roll:

[Diesel J]

<ahem>



Also, how was Kobe's playoff comp at the SG spot any better than Shaq's comp at the C position during those title runs? Hell, in the one all-time level playoff series that Kobe's ever had (this Denver series might go down as his second), which was when he averaged 33/7/7/51% vs. SA in 2001, he did it against a 52 year old Terry Porter and 6'4" Antonio Daniels -- real defensive stalwarts and noted as great players (sarcasm). :rolleyes: Meanwhile, Shaq that series averaged 28/13/3 blk/57% against two of the best defensive big men to ever play the game, while being doubled by them and with help defense from the entire team.

Seriously, with the SG's and swings that Kobe faced in the playoffs from 2000-2002, he should have DOMINATED them to an even greater extent if he's so superior, since his comp wasn't any better than Shaq's. I'll list them if you'd like...

that should end this thread.Great post:cheers:

[dynasty1978]

that should end this thread.Great post:cheers:

wonderful, the thread ends with haters and fanboys in disagreement. what an insightful thread, let's do it again....except next time let's just copy and paste posts about shaq and kobe from 2000 to now since we keep recycling the same material:D

[Loki]

By the way, despite the FACT that Shaq was pretty easily the more dominant player on those teams, and the player more responsible for their success, it's wrong to suggest that he "carried" Kobe. Players of Kobe's caliber don't get carried; they can be the lesser of two players when one is a top 7 all-time player at his absolute peak, but they do not get "carried." Except maybe for 2000. :)

[icemanfan]

End thread...

http://alltalksports.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/shaq-and-kobe.jpg
Dude that is seriously funny.

[BIGSHOT]

But you said this...



That was in reference to all of the titles MORE THAN FOUR YEARS AGO, implying that he was equally "the man". Selective memory is a ***** when you can't remember what you have selected.
No, Shaq was still the first option but Kobe was just as important.:pimp:

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

Dude that is seriously funny.

Yeah it really is.

[BIGSHOT]

http://www.sportsline.com/columns/story/10628481


LOL these pathetic Kobe haters/MJ fans are going crazy at the the thought of Kobe getting his 4th ring.:roll: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

http://www.sportsline.com/columns/story/10628481


LOL these pathetic Kobe haters/MJ fans are going crazy at the the thought of Kobe getting his 4th ring.:roll: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

He hasn't made it out of the first round yet.

[mjbulls23]

http://www.sportsline.com/columns/story/10628481


LOL these pathetic Kobe haters/MJ fans are going crazy at the the thought of Kobe getting his 4th ring.:roll: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

not every MJ fan is a Kobe hater

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

not every MJ fan is a Kobe hater
:cheers:

[Manute for Ever!]

http://www.sportsline.com/columns/story/10628481


LOL these pathetic Kobe haters/MJ fans are going crazy at the the thought of Kobe getting his 4th ring.:roll: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

Do you even realise that a fair portion of the hate is caused by fanboys like you who are completely biased and blind to any form of logic?!? It is retaliation to what ****tards like you say on a daily basis. Kobe the GOAT? Please...

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

Do you even realise that a fair portion of the hate is caused by fanboys like you who are completely biased and blind to any form of logic?!? It is retaliation to what ****tards like you say on a daily basis. Kobe the GOAT? Please...

Great post!

[Manute for Ever!]

not every MJ fan is a Kobe hater

Exactly.

[mjbulls23]

Do you even realise that a fair portion of the hate is caused by fanboys like you who are completely biased and blind to any form of logic?!?

that's the truth. I've been saying that.

He just can't comprehend the fact that a lot of Kobe haters include LeBron fans, Wade fans, Shaq fans, Iverson fans, and so on.

He obviously hates MJ so its useless to argue. The sad part is that I do my best not to generalize all Lakers/Kobe fans into one group. I pretty much let him choose for himself, and I'm now led to believe that either KINGD is either a very defensive regular Kobe fan, or just another groupie

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

that's the truth. I've been saying that.

He just can't comprehend the fact that a lot of Kobe haters include LeBron fans, Wade fans, Shaq fans, Iverson fans, and so on.

Kobe and the fans bring it upon themselves though, the hate just doesn't pop up out of nowhere.

[BIGSHOT]

He hasn't made it out of the first round yet.
hes about to.

[BIGSHOT]

not every MJ fan is a Kobe hater
Yes they are.The majority of Kobe haters are big time MJ fans.Its pathetic i know.:roll:

[mjbulls23]

Kobe and the fans bring it upon themselves though, the hate just doesn't pop up out of nowhere.

yes that's the point. It's pretty obvious to anyone other than the groupies or defensive regular Kobe/Lakers fans (almost like Loki's defense of MJ). They all have different intentions/agendas, but in the end what they all say is percieved the exact same way by everybody else

[BIGSHOT]

Do you even realise that a fair portion of the hate is caused by fanboys like you who are completely biased and blind to any form of logic?!? It is retaliation to what ****tards like you say on a daily basis. Kobe the GOAT? Please...
not really.there are FAR more Kobe hate threads then supportive ones.See what happend after kobes game 1 performance.And Kobe is the GOAT fool.

[mjbulls23]

Yes they are.The majority of Kobe haters are big time MJ fans.Its pathetic i know.:roll:

so every single fan of Jordan is a Kobe hater?

[BIGSHOT]

It's Just so amusing.To see MJ fans be so threatened of Kobe.:oldlol:

[BIGSHOT]

that's the truth. I've been saying that.

He just can't comprehend the fact that a lot of Kobe haters include LeBron fans, Wade fans, Shaq fans, Iverson fans, and so on.

He obviously hates MJ so its useless to argue. The sad part is that I do my best not to generalize all Lakers/Kobe fans into one group. I pretty much let him choose for himself, and I'm now led to believe that either KINGD is either a very defensive regular Kobe fan, or just another groupie
I love MJ. He was just overated. THe VAST majority of Kobe haters are usjually MJ groupies.TRUTH.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

Obviously Shaquille O'Neal was the main man on those Laker teams. I don't think you'll ever find a Lakers fan arguing with that. What we will do is argue when somebody says oh replace kobe with so and so and the lakers still win with shaq. Also Kobe's stats are misleading. The entire Lakers team took many low percentage shots, knowing who was under the basket waiting for the ball. I'll tell you this much, if you did replace Kobe with say, T-Mac, Iverson, etc on them Lakers 3 peat teams....the Lakers are lottery bound this year.

[mjbulls23]

THe VAST majority of Kobe haters are usjually MJ groupies.TRUTH.

and the same can be said vice versa.

[BIGSHOT]

Kobe haters are just pathetic.

[BIGSHOT]

and the same can be said vice versa.
No.

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

Kobe haters are just pathetic.

Can you point out one Kobe hater that has been a consistent poster in this thread?

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

Obviously Shaquille O'Neal was the main man on those Laker teams. I don't think you'll ever find a Lakers fan arguing with that. What we will do is argue when somebody says oh replace kobe with so and so and the lakers still win with shaq. Also Kobe's stats are misleading. The entire Lakers team took many low percentage shots, knowing who was under the basket waiting for the ball. I'll tell you this much, if you did replace Kobe with say, T-Mac, Iverson, etc on them Lakers 3 peat teams....the Lakers are lottery bound this year.



Iverson did it in Philly, Lebron did it in Cleveland, T-Mac has gotten to the postseason in Houston, can you imagine how many championships they would have won if any of them had a prime Shaq on their teams?

[Manute for Ever!]

.And Kobe is the GOAT fool.

Here it is for you again

Jordans stats:

~6x NBA Champion (1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997 1998) , ~Kobe 3x
~5x NBA MVP (1988, 1991, 1992, 1996, 1998) , ~Kobe 0x
~6x NBA Finals MVP (1991-1993, 1996-1998), ~Kobe 0x
~10x Scoring Champion, ~ Kobe 2x
~1x NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1988), ~Kobe 0x
~10x All-NBA First Team Selection (1987-1993, 1996-1998), ~Kobe 5x
~1x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1985), ~Kobe 2x
~9x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1988-1993, 1996-1998), ~Kobe 5x
~1985 NBA Rookie of the Year, ~ Not Kobe
~1985 NBA All-Rookie Team, ~Kobe - Second Team
~14x NBA All-Star (1985-1993, 1996-1998, 2002-2003), ~Kobe 10x
~3x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1988, 1996, 1998), ~Kobe 2x
~2x NBA Slam Dunk Contest winner (1987, 1988) ~Kobe 1x
~2x Olympic Gold Medal, ~Kobe 0x

I am not saying Kobe can't be GOAT, I am saying he isn't and he isn't even close yet. BTW, mjbulls23 has admitted in the past that he is a Kobe fan. Grow up.

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

Here it is for you again

Jordans stats:

~6x NBA Champion (1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997 1998) , ~Kobe 3x
~5x NBA MVP (1988, 1991, 1992, 1996, 1998) , ~Kobe 0x
~6x NBA Finals MVP (1991-1993, 1996-1998), ~Kobe 0x
~10x Scoring Champion, ~ Kobe 2x
~1x NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1988), ~Kobe 0x
~10x All-NBA First Team Selection (1987-1993, 1996-1998), ~Kobe 5x
~1x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1985), ~Kobe 2x
~9x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1988-1993, 1996-1998), ~Kobe 5x
~1985 NBA Rookie of the Year, ~ Not Kobe
~1985 NBA All-Rookie Team, ~Kobe - Second Team
~14x NBA All-Star (1985-1993, 1996-1998, 2002-2003), ~Kobe 10x
~3x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1988, 1996, 1998), ~Kobe 2x
~2x NBA Slam Dunk Contest winner (1987, 1988) ~Kobe 1x
~2x Olympic Gold Medal, ~Kobe 0x

I am not saying Kobe can't be GOAT, I am saying he isn't and he isn't even close yet. BTW, mjbulls23 has admitted in the past that he is a Kobe fan. Grow up.

Kind of ridiculous when people try to argue against the stats. It's the only thing that doesn't lie.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

Iverson did it in Philly, Lebron did it in Cleveland, T-Mac has gotten to the postseason in Houston, can you imagine how many championships they would have won if any of them had a prime Shaq on their teams?

Yeah, I can imagine...they'd have no more than 3 championships....only difference is the Lakers would be in shambles rite now. Can you imagine T-Mac or Iverson leading the 05-06, 06-07, 07-08 Laker teams?

[Manute for Ever!]

Kind of ridiculous when people try to argue against the stats. It's the only thing that doesn't lie.

Stats can be deceiving at times, but this spells it out pretty clearly without mentioning the intangibles that Jordan brough that don't show up on paper.

[crisoner]

Could this pf been put in our permanent Kobe thread?

Just a thought.

:rolleyes:

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

Yeah, I can imagine...they'd have no more than 3 championships....only difference is the Lakers would be in shambles rite now. Can you imagine T-Mac or Iverson leading the 05-06, 06-07, 07-08 Laker teams?

They could have made the playoffs and bowed out in the first round, just like the Lakers have.

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

Stats can be deceiving at times, but this spells it out pretty clearly without mentioning the intangibles that Jordan brough that don't show up on paper.
When stats are THAT far apart from player to player, they aren't as deceiving as they tend to be.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

They could have made the playoffs and bowed out in the first round, just like the Lakers have.

They wouldn't even had made it to the Play-Offs out West. EVER.

[BIGSHOT]

Here it is for you again

Jordans stats:

~6x NBA Champion (1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997 1998) , ~Kobe 3x
~5x NBA MVP (1988, 1991, 1992, 1996, 1998) , ~Kobe 0x
~6x NBA Finals MVP (1991-1993, 1996-1998), ~Kobe 0x
~10x Scoring Champion, ~ Kobe 2x
~1x NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1988), ~Kobe 0x
~10x All-NBA First Team Selection (1987-1993, 1996-1998), ~Kobe 5x
~1x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1985), ~Kobe 2x
~9x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1988-1993, 1996-1998), ~Kobe 5x
~1985 NBA Rookie of the Year, ~ Not Kobe
~1985 NBA All-Rookie Team, ~Kobe - Second Team
~14x NBA All-Star (1985-1993, 1996-1998, 2002-2003), ~Kobe 10x
~3x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1988, 1996, 1998), ~Kobe 2x
~2x NBA Slam Dunk Contest winner (1987, 1988) ~Kobe 1x
~2x Olympic Gold Medal, ~Kobe 0x

I am not saying Kobe can't be GOAT, I am saying he isn't and he isn't even close yet. BTW, mjbulls23 has admitted in the past that he is a Kobe fan. Grow up.
First kobe is 29.
Second, listing their accomplishments is pointless as that does not determine who the better player is.
Kobe is the better scorer.
Shooter.
On-ball defnder.
More explosive.
Ball handler.
3 points shooter.
BOOK it.:bowdown:

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

They wouldn't even had made it to the Play-Offs out West. EVER.

TMac has done it with the Rockets and you're crazy if you don't think Lebron can take a team to at least an 8 seed in the West.

[Manute for Ever!]

First kobe is 29.
Second, listing their accomplishments is pointless as that does not determine who the better player is.
Kobe is the better scorer.
Shooter.
On-ball defnder.
More explosive.
Ball handler.
3 points shooter.
BOOK it.:bowdown:

With the exception of one all-star appearence, MJ achieved all of this by the time he was 36. He missed almost two full seasons of his prime due to retirement and and almost all of his second year to injury. He also entered the league at age 21, so the time frame isn't that much different. Also, you tried to prove Kobe was better because they have the same ammount of 60-point games but MJ played longer and now you say accomplishments are pointless?!? :confusedshrug: Is that just because they don't support your argument?

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

:confusedshrug: How is Kobe the better scorer?

MJ won the scoring title 10 times?

[BIGSHOT]

With the exception of one all-star appearence, MJ achieved all of this by the time he was 36. He missed almost two full seasons of his prime due to retirement and and almost all of his second year to injury. He also entered the league at age 21, so the time frame isn't that much different. Also, you tried to prove Kobe was better because they have the same ammount of 60-point games but MJ played longer and now you say accomplishments are pointless?!? :confusedshrug: Is that just because they don't support your argument?
I'm saying you can't compare their career accomplsihments because
Kobe is only 29
Kobe has only had 4 yrs as the Man while MJ had 14.:rolleyes:

[BIGSHOT]

:confusedshrug: How is Kobe the better scorer?

MJ won the scoring title 10 times?
So? All that shows is that MJ wanted the scoring title.
Kobe has only had 3 yrs where he attempted 23 fGA+.This year, in his prime, kobe attempted only 20 shots per game.MJ on the other hand use to get 23-24 FGA per game even when his team was a championship con.

[guy]

Yeah, I can imagine...they'd have no more than 3 championships....only difference is the Lakers would be in shambles rite now. Can you imagine T-Mac or Iverson leading the 05-06, 06-07, 07-08 Laker teams?

What the hell? They wouldn't be as good, but they would be a playoff team. Both T-Mac and AI have lesser supporting casts and they don't have much less wins then the Lakers.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

What the hell? They wouldn't be as good, but they would be a playoff team. Both T-Mac and AI have lesser supporting casts and they don't have much less wins then the Lakers.

Yao is the leader of the Rockets and Melo is the leader of the Nuggets. And I am not just talking about this year. The future too. Everything, but you already agreed with me so whats the problem? Can you imagine Iverson leading this years Laker team? LMAO...

[Manute for Ever!]

So? All that shows is that MJ wanted the scoring title.
Kobe has only had 3 yrs where he attempted 23 fGA+.This year, in his prime, kobe attempted only 20 shots per game.MJ on the other hand use to get 23-24 FGA per game even when his team was a championship con.

So how did MJ average 8apg when he was 32.5ppg? That is a whole 2apg better than Bryants best and anytime he has averaged that many points or more, he has barly had half the assists. In fact, the year that Jordan averaged 37.1ppg, he averaged the same ammount of assists that Kobe has for his career. MJ's career apg is higher than Kobes. Next.

[guy]

Yao is the leader of the Rockets and Melo is the leader of the Nuggets. And I am not just talking about this year. The future too. Everything, but you already agreed with me so whats the problem? Can you imagine Iverson leading this years Laker team? LMAO...

Yea but to say they would be in shambles and would be lottery bound is crazy. The past few years they would still be a playoff team. And Iverson leading this year's Laker team? Like I said, not as good, but still a top team in the West. You really think AI with Bynum or Gasol, Odom, Fisher and coached by Phil Jackson wouldn't make the playoffs?

And seriously Yao is not the leader of the Rockets. He's missed nearly half the season for the past 3 years. T-Mac has had his injuries but he's been there more then Yao and he's depended on more then Yao, which is why he gets the blame for their losses. And if you ever watch Denver games, you will see that saying Melo is their leader is just not right. AI is their vocal and emotional leader and the one at the end of games that they mostly depend on. I would say both Yao and Melo are equally important, but to say they are the leaders is incorrect.

[Flamboyant]

2000-2001 Finals

Shaq scored 44/28/30/34/29. He shot 63-110. He averaged 33 PPG and shot 57% from the field.

Kobe scored 15/31/32/19/26. He shot 44-106. He averaged 24.6 PPG and shot 42% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. In this series Shaq didn't score below 28 and averaged 9 more points a game. He also shot 15% better from the field. Kobe had 3 games where he was under Shaq's low for the series and scored less than 20 in two games as well.


Shaq carried Kobe and the Lakers. The stats prove it.


I'll just bring up the 2001 Finals to all the Kobe haters(not directly you LuckyJunior), and prove that Kobe was not the side kick, lots of people try to call him. Check the scoring in game 1. Shaq had his best night, with 44 points. Kobe was below the average (7-22 FG, only 15). Did Shaq carry the team? Nope. They lost the game. When Kobe came to his own play, than the Lakers won. I'm not going to argue on who was better, as Shaq was the better punch, especially in the Finals. But except of 2000, Kobe was up there with Shaq too, and it was not Shaq carrying him, but it was both of the carrying the Lakers. Plus, you don't get the finals tickects out of no where. Kobe was usually the main reason when the Lakers were coming from the West, especially on Spurs series, who were generally their main opponent, during the time they were team mates.

Actually MaxFly said it the best: "It would be accurate to say that Shaq contributed the most, but to say that he "carried" Bryant is taking it a little far."

And yes, I agree that Shaq contributed the most.


Exactly my point, you can take Kobe off the team and add per-say Allen Iverson. Or a prime Grant Hill. And the Lakers still win titles.

If you take Shaq out, you got nothing.
. . .and then lots of other posts like:.

Point is take someone who wasn't as good or better than Kobe those 3 years and they don't win the title.


Now, thats the part, you sound like a hater. If you are going to make examples, make them both ways.

You don't say if you "take out" Kobe. You say "replace" him. So yes, "take out" Shaq, you get nothing, but "replace" him with Duncan, or Garnett, and the Lakers still win titles.

And honestly, if you are bringing Iverson MVP of 2001, to replace Kobe, thats the exact same thing, when you bring the MVP of 2002 Duncan, and replace him with Shaq.

[Flamboyant]

The issue is not Kobe this or shaq that. Its Kobe's fans vs MJ's fans. The war started back in 2002 when Michael was with the wizards. The young generation who never watched michael in his prime believed that the Wizards Jordan was the real Michael Jordan. This was a mistake on their part. They assumed that Michael was overrated just by watching his play with the wizards. So right there, they started declaring kobe as better than mike all of a sudden. The comparisons didn't start until mike was back with the wizards. Thats how is legacy was tarnished because had Michael never came back, no one would ever have this conversation. You know why? Because to comparing someone to Mike would have been like comparing one to absolute perfection.

OK, I was watching the NBA way earlier(when Jordan was a bull), but I'd want an answer from you about a question, and you can pretend that I started to watch NBA, when MJ was a wizard.

Can you tell me, why some guys like me(who think Kobe is the GOAT), don't think that Iverson, Vince, T-Mac, are better than Mike also?

----

On more serious note, you can say that MJ is better than Kobe, thats fine with me. But you can't say he's "inarguably" better than him, as player wise they are alikes, and both have some weapon on their game, that seperate them better from each other in those certain things. Some will like Kobe better, and some will like MJ.

[Jacks3]

OK, I was watching the NBA way earlier(when Jordan was a bull), but I'd want an answer from you about a question, and you can pretend that I started to watch NBA, when MJ was a wizard.

Can you tell me, why some guys like me(who think Kobe is the GOAT), don't think that Iverson, Vince, T-Mac, are better than Mike also?

----

On more serious note, you can say that MJ is better than Kobe, thats fine with me. But you can't say he's "inarguably" better than him, as player wise they are alikes, and both have some weapon on their game, that seperate them better from each other in those certain things. Some will like Kobe better, and some will like MJ.
Why do you think Kobe is the G.O.A.T.:confusedshrug:

[dejordan]

hey! it's revisionist history time and idiotic generalizing term time in the same thread. shaq didn't carry kobe. shaq was the laker's first option. every play they ran when he was in stemmed from him catching the ball in the low post (or moving to a postion where the defense compromised its spacing to prevent him from catching the ball), and then either he scored, somebody wound up with an open shot, or kobe got an easy one on one opportunity when the ball swung to the weakside. that's how they played. it was a game plan that worked to the tune of 3 titles & 4 finals appearances in 7 years (5 years under phil jackson).

they didn't dump it to shaq because kobe couldn't score. they dumped it to shaq because shaq made it easier for kobe and everyone else to score (hell, old broke shaq did the same thing for wade and the heat in 05 and 06). could kobe have been more of a focal point? probably. but it would not have made shaq better for kobe to go one on 5 the way it made kobe better when shaq did, so they didn't play that way. i always felt like kobe was the best second option as a scorer that i ever saw. maybe not as good as the wilt / baylor / west trio, but better than any #2 scorer i've ever seen.

also kobe deserves a lot of credit for taking over when shaq would get hurt (i know their winning %age fell off dramatically, but come on. you don't lose your only decent center and first option and not miss a beat) and when shaq's retarded free throw shooting jeopardized leads at the end of games.

[dejordan]

On more serious note, you can say that MJ is better than Kobe, thats fine with me. But you can't say he's "inarguably" better than him, as player wise they are alikes, and both have some weapon on their game, that seperate them better from each other in those certain things. Some will like Kobe better, and some will like MJ.
i still haven't ever heard this from anyone old enough to have seen mike play through the 80s and early 90s. if your vision of mike starts with a 33 year old, then i'd agree. very similar, and i could totally see thinking kobe was the better player. but if you look before that ... i just don't see it. i mean by the stats, by the wins, by the individual physical abilities, by the skills. imo when mike was kobe's age (the 1993 season), he was noticably quicker, stronger, and more expolsive, a better scorer, rebounder, passer, leader, defender ... the only thing i'd really say kobe is better at is making long shots. about 20 feet and out. but if you judged them by the same number of seasons played, i think it would be current kobe v. 97 jordan, and i'd consider current kobe better than a 34 year jordan.

[goldgrill4me]

just go back to my win shares post early in the thread it shows shaq certainly played the largest part in lakers wins early on, but he didn't do it anywhere near by himself and the final two trips to the finals it was kobe who played as big a part or bigger

Unless these numbers are wrong, I dont see how kobe was better in the last two finals than shaq. Shaq's numbers are clearly superior, your win share means little when looking at these stats. Im not saying Shaq carried kobe(other than the first chip) but he certainly was the best player on the team.

2000-2001 Finals

Shaq scored 44/28/30/34/29. He shot 63-110. He averaged 33 PPG and shot 57% from the field.

Kobe scored 15/31/32/19/26. He shot 44-106. He averaged 24.6 PPG and shot 42% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. In this series Shaq didn't score below 28 and averaged 9 more points a game. He also shot 15% better from the field. Kobe had 3 games where he was under Shaq's low for the series and scored less than 20 in two games as well.

2001-2002 Finals

Shaq scored 36/40/34/34. He shot 50-84. He averaged 36 PPG and shot 60% from the field.

Kobe scored 22/24/36/25. He shot 36-70. He averaged 26.8 PPG and shot 51% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. In this 4 game series Shaq once again averaged 9 more points a game and shot 9% better from the field. He didn't score below 34 in this series, while Kobe only had one 30 point game.

[Emile]

By the way, despite the FACT that Shaq was pretty easily the more dominant player on those teams, and the player more responsible for their success, it's wrong to suggest that he "carried" Kobe. Players of Kobe's caliber don't get carried; they can be the lesser of two players when one is a top 7 all-time player at his absolute peak, but they do not get "carried." Except maybe for 2000. :)

The most honest post in the topic, IMO.

I don't expect to see much sound reasoning here because I believe Kobe just can't win with some. Most here, for that matter.
If people now are arguing that Gasol, Bynum or Odom were more important than him or single him out for every bad game, always looking at the negative side of things, even when he wins, then how do you expect that person to say anything other than "Shaq did carry Kobe"? Again, we don't see things as they are, we see them as we are.

Kobe is a basketball legend so anyway, as far as I'm concerned, whether one thinks he was carried to Shaq, was his equal, was lesser of the two and whatnot, somehow doesn't interest me much anymore.
That was 200 years ago and as far as Kobe and the Lakers, I'm living well in the present.

What bothers me though and it bothers me really much is the ridiculous argumentation that it's Kobe fans who make Kobe hated. LOL, it's the single most ridiculous thing that can be read on this board and I believe that is saying something.
It simply isn't going that way, things don't work like that.
Your reason for the Kobe hatred are much deeper, fans just add to it and make you more annoyed but the root of hatred is Kobe himself, not the fans. Fans are an outside factor and don't provoke such feelings within you, the general dislike for Kobe is already there, well established, him probably rubbing you the wrong way. Why I think you use the fans for is to try to reason your hate but I bet deep down that none of you believe it's the fans fault either.
Fans simply aren't that strong of a factor, they might add to the picture but are not the cause. MJ has just as many irrational fans but they won't make you hate MJ, same goes for LeBron, same goes for AI, Manu, anyone really.

[Loki]

So? All that shows is that MJ wanted the scoring title.

Actually, what it shows is that Jordan can blend his high scoring and production into a team concept and have success and Kobe can't, probably because he's less efficient and his style of play (the style that generates his production) isn't as conducive to team ball.

Kobe has never proven that he can blend all-time level production and team success. The one season where he's arguably been on an all-time level production-wise (2006), his team didn't do much. Now that he's scaled his game back, the team flourishes. Now, don't get me wrong, all great players scale their individual games back for the sake of the team, even Jordan -- but Jordan was still able to combine top-tier production and success in a way that Kobe never has and imo never will.

[Manute for Ever!]

Actually, what it shows is that Jordan can blend his high scoring and production into a team concept and have success and Kobe can't, probably because he's less efficient and his style of play (the style that generates his production) isn't as conducive to team ball.

Kobe has never proven that he can blend all-time level production and team success. The one season where he's arguably been on an all-time level production-wise (2006), his team didn't do much. Now that he's scaled his game back, the team flourishes. Now, don't get me wrong, all great players scale their individual games back for the sake of the team, even Jordan -- but Jordan was still able to combine top-tier production and success in a way that Kobe never has and imo never will.

What I tried to show without having to write so much :cheers:

[Loki]

On more serious note, you can say that MJ is better than Kobe, thats fine with me. But you can't say he's "inarguably" better than him,

Sure you can. Because it's true.

[Jacks3]

Actually, what it shows is that Jordan can blend his high scoring and production into a team concept and have success and Kobe can't, probably because he's less efficient and his style of play (the style that generates his production) isn't as conducive to team ball.

Kobe has never proven that he can blend all-time level production and team success. The one season where he's arguably been on an all-time level production-wise (2006), his team didn't do much. Now that he's scaled his game back, the team flourishes. Now, don't get me wrong, all great players scale their individual games back for the sake of the team, even Jordan -- but Jordan was still able to combine top-tier production and success in a way that Kobe never has and imo never will.
Not really. Kobe scored 28 PPG on a 57 win team this year. He also led the league in total pts scored. He easily could have led in the league in scoring but only took 20 FGA per game.:rolleyes:
Kobe=G.O.A.T

[Jacks3]

Kobe is about to get his 4th ring with no other great player around him. pau is just very good.:pimp:

[Manute for Ever!]

Not really. Kobe scored 28 PPG on a 57 win team this year. He also led the league in total pts scored. He easily could have led in the league in scoring but only took 20 FGA per game.:rolleyes:
Kobe=G.O.A.T

You just got banned writing similar crap, move on with you life, KingD/bigshot/Jacks3

[goldgrill4me]

On more serious note, you can say that MJ is better than Kobe, thats fine with me. But you can't say he's "inarguably" better than him, as player wise they are alikes, and both have some weapon on their game, that seperate them better from each other in those certain things. Some will like Kobe better, and some will like MJ.

LOL........:roll: :roll: :roll: You make it seem like MJ >>>>Kobe is a 50/50 split. Its like a 95/5 for MJ. Only a moron who is under the age of 20 would have Kobe over Jordan.

[Jacks3]

You just got banned writing similar crap, move on with you life, KingD/bigshot/Jacks3
What did I say? He said Kobe can't do individually great play with team succes. Yet Kobe avg 28 PPG on only 20 FGA per game, and lead in the league in total pts scored.:pimp:

[Loki]

Not really. Kobe scored 28 PPG on a 57 win team this year. He also led the league in total pts scored. He easily could have led in the league in scoring but only took 20 FGA per game.:rolleyes:
Kobe=G.O.A.T

What's his PER and EFF? Yeah, that's what I thought. When you want to be considered among the greatest players of all-time (as Kobe desires and his fans constantly tell us; see your above "GOAT" comment, which is farcical), it's not enough to finish 8th in PER, 5th in EFF, < 20th in Offensive Rating, 4th in Win Shares, and 9th in Win Shares Above Average. You have to dominate statistically across the board.

28 ppg is nice, but it's not the whole picture. Again, Kobe has never blended all-time level production and team success. One can speculate as to why that is, but imo it's because he's not efficient enough (cue cries of "TS%!" from the groopies) and his style of play (lots of long jumpers, somewhat frequent overdribbling etc.) is not conducive to team ball.

[Manute for Ever!]

What did I say? He said Kobe can't do individually great play with team succes. Yet Kobe avg 28 PPG on only 20 FGA per game, and lead in the league in total pts scored.:pimp:

And I am just pointing out that it appears that you may be on a short leash here on ISH, due to your agenda based posts. Two of your previous accounts are banned for posting this same topic, if you want to talk serious ball, it might be time for you to discuss a different topic, that's all. Notice that there aren't a lot of people agreeing with you?

[Jacks3]

What's his PER and EFF? Yeah, that's what I thought. When you want to be considered among the greatest players of all-time (as Kobe desires and his fans constantly tell us; see your above "GOAT" comment, which is farcical), it's not enough to finish 8th in PER, 5th in EFF, < 20th in Offensive Rating, 4th in Win Shares, and 9th in Win Shares Above Average. You have to dominate statistically across the board.

28 ppg is nice, but it's not the whole picture. Again, Kobe has never blended all-time level production and team success. One can speculate as to why that is, but imo it's because he's not efficient enough (cue cries of "TS%!" from the groopies) and his style of play (lots of long jumpers, somewhat frequent overdribbling etc.) is not conducive to team ball.
LOL.Who gives a damn about PER and EFF.When you're doing 28/6/5/2 and your team is winning 57 and is a championship contender your doing more then enough "blending". Besides according to PER and EFF Kobe has never had a All-Time great season. 05-06 was NOT Kobe's best year.

[Jacks3]

Not to mention
being top 10 in steals.
leading the league in 30+ games, 40+ games, and 50+ games.
leading the league in total pts.
finishing 2nd in PPG
winning MVP
Making All-NBA first team
Making all All-NBA first team defense.
Finishing top 5 in DPOY voting (5th).
grabbing more rebound then anybody not namd Jason Kidd for guards
20+ Double Doubles.
Yeah, he cant combine individual succes with winning.LOL

[Jacks3]

And I am just pointing out that it appears that you may be on a short leash here on ISH, due to your agenda based posts. Two of your previous accounts are banned for posting this same topic, if you want to talk serious ball, it might be time for you to discuss a different topic, that's all. Notice that there aren't a lot of people agreeing with you?
I have no agenda.Put me on your ignore list if you have such a big problem.:oldlol:

[Manute for Ever!]

Not to mention
being top 10 in steals.
leading the league in 30+ games, 40+ games, and 50+ games.
leading the league in total pts.
finishing 2nd in PPG
winning MVP
Making All-NBA first team
Making all All-NBA first team defense.
Finishing top 5 in DPOY voting (5th).
grabbing more rebound then anybody not namd Jason Kidd for guards
20+ Double Doubles.
Yeah, he cant combine individual succes with winning.LOL

When did that happen?

[Jacks3]

When did that happen?
According to Dan Patrick.He spoke to NBA officials and they told him Kobe is gnna win it.I think it's pretty clear he will win it.:pimp:

[Manute for Ever!]

According to Dan Patrick.He spoke to NBA officials and they told him Kobe is gnna win it.I think it's pretty clear he will win it.:pimp:

According to Jennifer Love Hewitt, ghosts are real. We're talking facts, not "what ifs". Let me know when it happens.

[Jacks3]

Seriously though.How many in history have made
All-NBA First team D.
All-NBA First team.
Lead league in total pts.
Finish top 10 in SPG.
Win MVP
Finish top 5 in DPOY voting.
Or something similar to that? 7-8 guys in history?

[Jacks3]

We're talking facts, not "what ifs". Let me know when it happens.
Whatever.:oldlol:
It WILL happend though.:lol

[Manute for Ever!]

Whatever.:oldlol:
It WILL happend though.:lol

It and it very well may happen, but don't quote it as fact to support your your argument until it does. :banghead:

[Jacks3]

It and it very well may happen, but don't quote it as fact to support your your argument until it does. :banghead:
Okay dude. Dont get pissed of.:D

[guy]

What did I say? He said Kobe can't do individually great play with team succes. Yet Kobe avg 28 PPG on only 20 FGA per game, and lead in the league in total pts scored.:pimp:

Kobe can individually play great with team success, just not at the level Jordna could. Its not a knock on Kobe, cause honestly I don't think anyone has ever been able to do that as well as Jordan, which is the main reason he is the GOAT. Jordan, Shaq, and Kareem are the only players to win the scoring title and a championship in the same year, but Jordan did it 6 times, while Shaq and Kareem only did it in one season.

[Jacks3]

Kobe can individually play great with team success, just not at the level Jordna could. Its not a knock on Kobe, cause honestly I don't think anyone has ever been able to do that as well as Jordan, which is the main reason he is the GOAT. Jordan, Shaq, and Kareem are the only players to win the scoring title and a championship in the same year, but Jordan did it 6 times, while Shaq and Kareem only did it in one season.
so what?what if Kobe finishes in 2nd place for the scoring title and his team wins the chip? about the same damn thing to me. dont see what all the fuss about finishing 1st or 2nd is.

[guy]

so what?what if Kobe finishes in 2nd place for the scoring title and his team wins the chip? about the same damn thing to me. dont see what all the fuss about finishing 1st or 2nd is.

If you're going to say Kobe is the GOAT, then even the little differences do matter cause even those contribute in separating the GOAT from everyone else. Its hard to call Kobe the GOAT and separate him from everyone else, when some players have great arguments like this backing up their claims to at least being greater then Kobe.

[Loki]

so what?what if Kobe finishes in 2nd place for the scoring title and his team wins the chip? about the same damn thing to me. dont see what all the fuss about finishing 1st or 2nd is.

Because it's not just about ppg.

Your "Kobe = GOAT" comment is a joke, btw. Trolls like you are why haters even exist. I enjoy watching Kobe, but when it's clear that he's so far away from a guy like Jordan in terms of impact on the average game yet his groopies try to elevate him to that status, it makes it hard to root for him.

Kobe doesn't make it easy either, with his extreme, disproportionate arrogance and immature actions on the court. The only thing Kobe led the league in this past season was jerseys popped.

[gts]

what's MJ got to do with this thread?

[bdreason]

Obviously Shaq was their best player.


Who scored in the 4th quarter though? I'de like to see that stat.

[Loki]

what's MJ got to do with this thread?

When people start illogically calling Kobe "GOAT," it sorta means that other, legitimate GOAT-level players will be mentioned.

[gts]

legitimate GOAT-level players then discuss Kareem the true GOAT of the NBA

[Loki]

legitimate GOAT-level players then discuss Kareem the true GOAT of the NBA

I often wonder why more Magic/Kareem/Wilt fans don't take umbrage at these sort of remarks by clueless groopies regarding Kobe's supposed GOAT-ness.

[Jacks3]

Because it's not just about ppg.

Your "Kobe = GOAT" comment is a joke, btw. Trolls like you are why haters even exist. I enjoy watching Kobe, but when it's clear that he's so far away from a guy like Jordan in terms of impact on the average game yet his groopies try to elevate him to that status, it makes it hard to root for him.

Kobe doesn't make it easy either, with his extreme, disproportionate arrogance and immature actions on the court. The only thing Kobe led the league in this past season was jerseys popped.
LOL @ enjoy watching Kobe.Don't lie. And no, Jordan does not have a much greater impact on games then Kobe does. Only a idiot would say that.
Kobe>Jordan. You're just another hater. Not a surprise coming from a Jordan fan.

[Emile]

Jordan fans IMO do see Kobe as some kind of a threat IMO. Or maybe better to say, a rival.
Even though I doubt they believe Kobe will ever be considered better than Jordan, they do see it as a possibility. At the very least, they know it's out there and they want to kill the talk. But the talk has been around for over 10 years now so clearly, when something is discussed for so long, it means that kobe's getting somewhere. Now sorry if I am wrong but there is something regarding Jordan that Kobe brings out of most of you.

And no, no one can tell me that it's the Kobe fans who are so obnoxious that they make the whole thing going, I'm sorry but it's not true.
For example, if a thread about DeShawn Stevenson or Jose Calderon being better than Jordan was made, no one really would pay much attention to it. We'd share a few laughs and that'd be it. It'd be a comedy topic.
Heck, even take VC. If the same thread was made, we'd all say how Vince could've been great but it is what it is now, due to this and that and that would be all. Take T Mac, someone would post a 40 year old virgin pic, there would be three IBTL posts and we'd go on to discuss something else.
Case in point, someone made a post last week about Iverson being the top 10 player if the Nuggets win a ring. No one payed any attention to it. Now, IMO, what was said was laughable but if the same thing was said about Kobe, you bet some posters would take giant exception to it.
Unlike all of the above, when Kobe is brought up in the vs Jordan talks, then it's real. Folks get defensive, even irrational, argumentative which means that there is an argument in the first place. Then flame wars get started and instead of getting only a handful posts, we get sometimes even thousands. Now, if something isn't there and is laughable to suggest a such thing, then all those emotions wouldn't be provoked. Period. And certainly, not as many people would care for Kobe as they for example don't care for VC or T Mac.
Obviously, the mention of Kobe in that context, vs MJ, ignites many people, gets them riled up so even judging by that, there is something there, whether they want to admit it or not, their emotions certainly are different when it comes to Kobe there compared to anyone else.

And to say it's because of the fans....pleaaaaase.
You know something's in the air at the very least when it comes to Kobe.

That's just my opinion though.

[Carbine]

I'd be more offended if someone referred to me a "Loki" then an "Emile"...you're the ultimate idiot on this forum, a running joke not only in the eyes of Laker fans.

He's only the ultimate idiot to those who disagree with his opinion. It's not like he brings up outrageous things and defends them to no end.

He, like Knoe, provides solid and well-thought posts regarding Kobe which his fans don't take well. He's the most likely to point out the bad things in any given game by Kobe, but those points are most of the time right on point.

It's like someone who is anti-smoking walking into a smoking section and proclaiming how bad smoking is and pointing out all the flaws in it. He's not going to be liked in those areas, but to the neutral person it's a totally different feeling.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

Trolls like you are why haters even exist.

I disagree. Haters exist because they don't have a life. Seriously any normal human being wouldn't have the time to hate on a man they don't even know as much as some idiots do on here. Some of these morons take this sh!t so seriously there putting in a full days worth of work to hate on ish sometimes. Translate that into a full time job and these morons would be making some serious mula.

[Phenomenon]

Wrong, I don't call him an idiot because of his arguments...many times he brings solid points, he's a good poster when he keeps his emotion in check.

He's the ultimate idiot whenever you enter a Laker thread, and LA won the game...guy acts like a little girl, making so many irrational claims you might as well grab some popcorn and watch this clown make a fool of himself.

Two different things.

[Phenomenon]

Let's change the subject then.
How's you boy Steve Nash holding up against SA? They finally going to beat the big bully? Oh snap.

Hey look at the bright side, at least you won't get humiliated by my Lakers this year...that would have hurt more, after D'Antonio's big words earlier in the year.

[Manute for Ever!]

We're talking about Jordan? Really, I thought this thread had to do with Kobe & Shaquille...me bringing up Nash into this is just as irrelevant as Loki bringing up Jordan in every ****ing thread.

But I pray that Phoenix somehow grows a pair and actually beats SA in 7, so that our boys can have the previledge of serving you, your asses.

Is that because you are no match for SA?

[Phenomenon]

Just like you handed it to us in the first round the last two years?

You had your little fun with us, did y'all win any championships though?
I just wanted some redemption in the process...I wanted some Phoenix blood, too bad SA spoiled it for us.

But it's not about the past, it's about right now...at least we have something in common this year...you guys are on a verge of being swept while we on the verge of sweeping. :cheers: Enjoy fishing.


Is that because you are no match for SA?

I do believe SA are a better team without Bynum, but I don't fear them one bit...with Gasol we have a legit shot at beating them, especially with the home court on our side.

[ukplayer4]

i actually refuse to believe that anyone of sound mind honestly believes kobe is better than mj....i know there are a bunch of cretins on here that say it but it must be just for attention...just look at the reasoning- kobe is a better scorer, shooter,deffender,more explosive...... this is just refusal of facts and reality. all facts say otherwise therefore what is the thought process of these people? it goes without saying they are too young to have seen jordan play, but purely going on stats, accomplishments, repute there isnt even grounds for an argument even in the most insane fantasists head.....and the reality is even more lopsided.

[TmacsRockets]

LOL @ enjoy watching Kobe.Don't lie. And no, Jordan does not have a much greater impact on games then Kobe does. Only a idiot would say that.
Kobe>Jordan. You're just another hater. Not a surprise coming from a Jordan fan.

Kobe's numbers are the equivalent to Vince Carter come postseason.

Jordan is the only player in the history of the game to average 30+ ppg for the playoffs and he leads the next closest player by 3.5+ ppg. Jordan averages 33.4 ppg and Iverson averages 29.7 ppg.

And if you want to use era differences, well Iverson came into the league the same year as Kobe and he is 2nd all time in playoffs ppg and 3rd all time in season ppg. Shows how easy it is score these days.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Kobe's numbers are the equivalent to Vince Carter come postseason.

Jordan is the only player in the history of the game to average 30+ ppg for the playoffs and he leads the next closest player by 3.5+ ppg. Jordan averages 33.4 ppg and Iverson averages 29.7 ppg.

And if you want to use era differences, well Iverson came into the league the same year as Kobe and he is 2nd all time in playoffs ppg and 3rd all time in season ppg. Shows how easy it is score these days.

?????

[TmacsRockets]

Not to mention
being top 10 in steals.
leading the league in 30+ games, 40+ games, and 50+ games.
leading the league in total pts.
finishing 2nd in PPG
winning MVP
Making All-NBA first team
Making all All-NBA first team defense.
Finishing top 5 in DPOY voting (5th).
grabbing more rebound then anybody not namd Jason Kidd for guards
20+ Double Doubles.
Yeah, he cant combine individual succes with winning.LOL

Why hasn't Kobe shot a better fg% than his team in 5 years.

In fact, he had a pg in Smush that averaged over 11.5 ppg. When Jordan or Wade got 10+ ppg from their PG's they won titles, Kobe couldn't even get out of round 1. Also Kobe is the leader of the Lakers and he failed to get out of round 1 twice with the GOAT coach in Phil Jackson. Also Kobe shot 37% in the 2000 Finals and 38% in the 2004 finals.

In 35 Finals games, Jordan averaged 33.6 points, 6.0 rebounds and 6.0 assists a game.

In 20 Finals games, Bryant has averaged 22.2 points, 5.2 rebounds and 4.9 assists a game.

[jjayfive]

this thread had aids...........

[TmacsRockets]

?????


Playoffs

Kobe Bryant
24.0 ppg, 44.3% fg, 32.5% 3pt FG, 5.0 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.3 spg, 0.7 bpg, 2.9 tpg

Vince Carter
25.9 ppg, 41.8% fg, 33.2% 3 pt FG, 6.9 rpg, 5.2 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 2.7 tpg

[gts]

Playoffs

Kobe Bryant
24.0 ppg, 44.3% fg, 32.5% 3pt FG, 5.0 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.3 spg, 0.7 bpg, 2.9 tpg

Vince Carter
25.9 ppg, 41.8% fg, 33.2% 3 pt FG, 6.9 rpg, 5.2 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 2.7 tpgwhat's your point? and what does it have to do with the OP?

[Allstar24]

?????
It has to be kgisbigticket posting from his new ID. He is the only moron who insists Vince is a better playoff performer than Kobe :oldlol:

[TmacsRockets]

what's your point? and what does it have to do with the OP?

Someone said Kobe was as good as Jordan, but I showed that he wasnt even as good as Vince in the playoffs.

[gts]

I often wonder why more Magic/Kareem/Wilt fans don't take umbrage at these sort of remarks by clueless groopies regarding Kobe's supposed GOAT-ness.
half the posters on ISH never even saw jordan play except for maybe the twilight of his career, and i'll say very few actually saw kareem or magic, and even fewer saw wilt, i never saw wilt play and there is very little archived film of his days...

i was reading even the nba has no real large amount of footage of the 60's because games were not broadcast except for one game a week, and then the finals of course...

[Mr. Bryant]

what's your point? and what does it have to do with the OP?

His point is that T-Mac and his cousin Wince are stat padders who will never be able to win a championship because they are not team players.

[gts]

Someone said Kobe was as good as Jordan, but I showed that he wasnt even as good as Vince in the playoffs. ahh ok i see..
good luck with the vince carter debate...

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Playoffs

Kobe Bryant
24.0 ppg, 44.3% fg, 32.5% 3pt FG, 5.0 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.3 spg, 0.7 bpg, 2.9 tpg

Vince Carter
25.9 ppg, 41.8% fg, 33.2% 3 pt FG, 6.9 rpg, 5.2 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 2.7 tpg

do you realize you are including Kobe's first 2 years where he averaged 15 and 20 minutes respectively? and he was a kid straight out of high school? at the same age, VC was in college.
your comparison is laughable. try again.

side note: yes, his FG% is nothing spectacular.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Why hasn't Kobe shot a better fg% than his team in 5 years.

In fact, he had a pg in Smush that averaged over 11.5 ppg. When Jordan or Wade got 10+ ppg from their PG's they won titles, Kobe couldn't even get out of round 1. Also Kobe is the leader of the Lakers and he failed to get out of round 1 twice with the GOAT coach in Phil Jackson. Also Kobe shot 37% in the 2000 Finals and 38% in the 2004 finals.

In 35 Finals games, Jordan averaged 33.6 points, 6.0 rebounds and 6.0 assists a game.

In 20 Finals games, Bryant has averaged 22.2 points, 5.2 rebounds and 4.9 assists a game.

I can't believe you just compared Kobe's team of Smush, Kwame & Luke to:
Jordan's Bulls with Pip, Rodman, etc
and
Wade's Heat with Shaq.

Good day to you, sir.

[BloodyRain]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

There are STILL people saying VC is better than Kobe because of the playoff stats. I guess it's true, stats means EVERYTHING.

[TmacsRockets]

do you realize you are including Kobe's first 2 years where he averaged 15 and 20 minutes respectively? and he was a kid straight out of high school? at the same age, VC was in college.
your comparison is laughable. try again.

side note: yes, his FG% is nothing spectacular.

It doesn't matter those are Kobe's stats. If you go to college at 15 years old but get all "C's" your first semester should those grades be thrown out later on?

Nope, they are part of your history, you just gotta make better decisions. Also Kobe wasn't good enough to start his first two years. He didn't become good until Phil Jackson trained him and Shaq molded him. Without Shaq or Phil Jackson, Kobe would have been relegated to a 6th man role his entire career.

[KenneBell]

Nope, they are part of your history, you just gotta make better decisions. Also Kobe wasn't good enough to start his first two years. He didn't become good until Phil Jackson trained him and Shaq molded him. Without Shaq or Phil Jackson, Kobe would have been relegated to a 6th man role his entire career.
:roll:

You are delusional.

[TmacsRockets]

:roll:

You are delusional.


It's true, Kobe didn't become a starter until Shaq molded him.

Kobe didn't become a star until Phil Jackson came.

[v-unit]

How can you tell if he didn't have his same hard work routine? The Lakers staff was really impressed with Kobe's workouts prior to his draft, so you know that he didn't get the work ethic from Shaq or Phil, so how can you tell that he wouldn't be a star?

[dynasty1978]

It's true, Kobe didn't become a starter until Shaq molded him.

Kobe didn't become a star until Phil Jackson came.


Don't be an idiot. Truth is Kobe didn't respect Shaq's work ethic and wanted no part of any "big brother/lilttle brother" relationship so there was no molding whatsoever.

[Laker4Lyfe]

It doesn't matter those are Kobe's stats. If you go to college at 15 years old but get all "C's" your first semester should those grades be thrown out later on?

Nope, they are part of your history, you just gotta make better decisions. Also Kobe wasn't good enough to start his first two years. He didn't become good until Phil Jackson trained him and Shaq molded him. Without Shaq or Phil Jackson, Kobe would have been relegated to a 6th man role his entire career.
This has got to be hands down the DUMBEST thing I've EVER read on ISH and I've read some DUMB stuff.

Wow is this what the Lakers going to the WCF brings? Just hater nonsense?:banghead::banghead:

[gts]

This has got to be hands down the DUMBEST thing I've EVER read on ISH and I've read some DUMB stuff.

Wow is this what the Lakers going to the WCF brings? Just hater nonsense?:banghead::banghead:lol yeah but it does have it's comedy value

[32jazz]

The WCF were the true Finals for the Lakers.BTW how do those numbers prove Shaq "carried" Kobe? Looks to me like a dominant 1 st option having a dominant series. It's not like Kobe was avg 14 PPG or something. BTW 99-00 Kobe was not a superstar yet.

Exactly. In order for a player to "play" in the NBA finals he has to get there & the Western Coference Finals was THE championship those seasons by many accounts.

2000 WCF Finals Kobe was a cub but he showed how valuable he was with the series on the line. Here are the stats I have for Game 6 & 7:


Game 6)KOBE FG .500 / PTS 33 / REBS 2/ ast 6/ blk 3/ stls/4
Game 6)SHAQ FG .412/ PTS 17/ Rebs 11/ ast 5/ BLK 0/ Stls 0

Game 7)KOBE FG. 474/PTS 25/ REBS 11/ AST 7/ Blk 4 /STl 0
Game 7)SHAQ FG. 556 /PTS 18/ REBS 9/ast 5/ BLk 1/ STL 0

So KOBE & SHAQ had an average statline in two(2) close out games (The kid was already clutch & where was SHAQ? Kobe basically outplayed him across the boards:

KOBE .FG%.485/29/6.5/6.5/3.5/2
SHAQ FG% .484/17.5/10/5/.5/0.0

2001 WCF's Average seven Games:

KOBE .511 FG% 32.2PTS/7/7/.4 /.8
SHAQ .539 FG% 27PTS/13/2.5/.8/.6


2002 WCF's Average statline was roughly:

KOBE 28.8/ 6.2/ 4/1.4/1.1
SHAQ 28.4/13.5/1.4/2.1/.7


I will always give more props to the heart & soul(big man) of a team ,but that seems far from SHAQ carrying KOBE.:confusedshrug: You gotta get there to win it. That seems far from a player being "carried".

[riseagainst]

Replace Shaq with anyone else from that era then you wouldn't have seen Kobe getting one ring even with Phil Jackson...

:lol

[jstern]

Replace Shaq with anyone else from that era then you wouldn't have seen Kobe getting one ring even with Phil Jackson...

I think this paints the perfect pictures, because there were guys that you could have definitely replaced Kobe with and the Lakers would have still won. Maybe even 4 championships.

Edit: Wow, this thread is old.

[riseagainst]

I think this paints the perfect pictures, because there were guys that you could have definitely replaced Kobe with and the Lakers would have still won. Maybe even 4 championships.

Edit: Wow, this thread is old.

All speculation.

[Ne 1]

If you ask someone who knows anything about basketball how many rings Kobe Bryant has, they'll probably give you the correct answer

[riseagainst]

[QUOTE=Ne 1]If you ask someone who knows anything about basketball how many rings Kobe Bryant has, they'll probably give you the correct answer

[Poetry]

Shaq would once again win the NBA Finals MVP, but Bryant wasn't too shabby in the playoffs either, averaging 29.4 points, 7.3 rebounds, and 6.1 assists per game.

Compare that to Michael Jordan's playoff stats in 1991-1992 (second championship), in which he averaged 31.1 points, 6.4 rebounds, and 8.4 assists.

However, nobody would dare say Jordan doesn't deserve credit for his team's success.

Shaq didn't carry Kobe, he carried the entire team. Everyone benefited from his presence.

The reason Kobe gets overshadowed during those years is because of what's understood to be the benefit of playing alongside a focal point like Shaq.

Imagine a young LeBron playing alongside a threat like prime Shaq.

Even MJ's accomplishment's would be diminished in the eyes of many people had he benefited from all the defensive attention Shaq drew.

Certainly there were times during the Shaq/Kobe years when they were 1A/1B, more so in the end, when Kobe ascendance was beginning but it was during the infancy of Shaq's decline.

But most of the time, without question, it was Shaq's team

Everyone benefited from Shaq.

Anyone would have benefited playing alongside prime Shaq.

So when viewing the achievements of his teammates, his presence has to be taken into consideration.

Did Pippen help MJ? Of course.

But Pippen isn't drawing the kind of attention Shaq is. So the perception is different.

Remember, MJ is analogous to Shaq in this equation. He was the focal point.

Pippen is the player that benefited from MJ's presence. And of course, Pippen was the piece that put the Bulls over the top. So MJ benefited as well, but to a much lesser degree.

No one is saying Kobe didn't contribute to the Shaq/Kobe dynasty. But only one of those players was indispensable to the Lakers during that era, and as great as he is, it wasn't Kobe.

[boozehound]

shaq was definitely the top banana, not the 1a/1b situation that stans would have you believe as they re-write history. Still, carried is a bit of an overstatement.

[Poetry]

[QUOTE=Ne 1]If you ask someone who knows anything about basketball how many rings Kobe Bryant has, they'll probably give you the correct answer

[imdaman99]

shaq dominated the pathetic east, while kobe dominated the strong west. they both needed each other to win.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

They carried each other. Nothing new to see here.

[LongLiveTheKing]

Yes Shaq carried Kobe.
Playoff Stats-
2000- Shaq 30.7 Points, 56% FG/Kobe 21.1 Points, 44% FG
2001- Shaq 30.4 Points, 55% FG/Kobe 29.4 Points, 47% FG
2002- Shaq 28.5 Points, 53% FG/Kobe 26.6 Points, 43% FG
Looks like Shaq carried him.

[bdreason]

Post the WCF numbers, which were essentially the real Finals.

[YAWN]

Kobe 2000-2001
29/6/5 Regular Season
29/7/6 Playoffs
25/4/8 VS Blazers in First round (Third Best Team They Faced)
35/9/4 VS Kings in Semis (2nd Best Team They Faced)
33/7/7 VS Spurs in WCF (1st Best Team They Faced)
25/8/6 VS Sixers in Finals (4th Best Team They Faced)

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://i.imm.io/Ar4s.jpeg

http://i.imm.io/Ar5B.jpeg

http://i.imm.io/Ar6L.jpeg

http://i.imm.io/Ar9e.jpeg

http://i.imm.io/Arar.jpeg

[Nick Young]

Kobe carried Shaq. End thread

That being said, Shaq was definately the best sidekick Kobe ever had.

[Flagrant 2]

Kobe carried Shaq. End thread

That being said, Shaq was definately the best sidekick Kobe ever had.
Yup. Shaq played with Penny and didnt win shit.

[crisoner]

Watch the freaking games before quoting stupid stats.

Kobe broke down the dee to get Shaq open looks.
It was a perfect combo that lead to three straight titles.
Three of them!

But some kids got agendas so this crap will always be brought up.

[juju151111]

Watch the freaking games before quoting stupid stats.

Kobe broke down the dee to get Shaq open looks.
It was a perfect combo that lead to three straight titles.
Three of them!

But some kids got agendas so this crap will always be brought up.
Broke down D? U stupid? Shaq was averaging 20+ in his rookie season. You stupid?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Broke down D? U stupid? Shaq was averaging 20+ in his rookie season. You stupid?
Both broke down the D

Here's Kobe doing it - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVJWzN4dpPs

Shaq obviously did it by getting a lot of defensive attention.