Kobe Bryant is only 1 game winning shot away from matching Michael Jordan

[griffmoney1984]

There was no kept stat before Jordan came allong. but im pretty sure Jordan hit more than bird,west,magic


Kobe Bryant

(1) 05/10/00 - Lakers 97 - Phoenix 96 (playoffs)
(2) 06/14/00 - Lakers 120 - Pacers 118 (playoffs)
(3) 11/16/00 - Lakers 112 - Kings 110
(4) 02/07/01 - Lakers 85 - Phoenix 83
(5) 02/13/01 - Lakers 113 - Nets 110
(6) 01/02/02 - Lakers 87 - Nuggets 86
(7) 02/22/02 - Lakers 96 - Hornets 94
(8) 05/12/02 - Lakers 87 - Spurs 85 (playoffs)
(9) 12/06/02 - Lakers 105 - Dallas 103
(10) 04/04/03 - Lakers 102 - Grizzlies 101
(11) 04/06/03 - Lakers 115 - Suns 113
(12) 12/19/03 - Lakers 101 - Nuggets 99
(13) 02/17/04 - Lakers 89 - Blazers 86
(14) 03/21/04 - Lakers 104 - Bucks 103
(15) 04/14/04 - Lakers 105 - Blazers 104
(16) 03/12/05 - Lakers 117 - Bobcats 116
(17) 11/02/05 - Lakers 99 - Nuggets 97
(18) 01/07/06 - Lakers 112 - Clippers 109
(19) 01/13/06 - Lakers 99 - Cavaliers 98
(20) 04/30/06 - Lakers 99 - Suns 98 (playoffs)
(21) 01/14/08 - Lakers 123 - Seattle 121


Michael Jordan

(1) Nov. 11, 1984 vs. Indiana, 118-116
(2) Dec. 7, 1984 vs. New York, 95-93
(3) April 24, 1985 vs. Milwaukee, 109-107
(4) Nov. 11, 1986 vs. Atlanta, 112-110
(5) Nov. 21, 1986 vs. New York, 101-99
(6) April 15, 1988 vs. New Jersey, 100-99
(7) Feb. 16, 1989 vs. Milwaukee, 117-116
(8) May 7, 1989 vs. Cleveland, 101-100
(9) May 27, 1989 vs. Detroit, 99-97
(10) Nov. 13, 1990 vs. Utah, 84-82
(11) Jan. 22, 1992 vs. Charlotte, 115-112
(12) Nov. 11, 1992 vs. Detroit, 98-96 (OT)
(13) May 17, 1993 vs. Cleveland, 103-101
(14) March 25, 1995 vs. Atlanta, 99-98
(15) Feb. 11, 1997 vs. Charlotte, 103-100
(16) June 1, 1997 vs. Utah, 84-82
(17) February 13, 1998 vs. Atlanta, 112-110
(18) March 22, 1998 vs. Toronto, 102-100
(19) June 14, 1998 vs. Utah, 87-86
(20) December 22, 2001 vs. New York, 87-86
(21) January 31, 2002 vs. Cavaliers, 93-92
(22) February 15, 2002 vs. Suns, 97-96

Jordans Free Throw Winners ( I dont have a coppy of Kobes Free Throw Winners )

March 26, 1985 vs. Indiana, 120-119
Oct. 25, 1985 vs. Cleveland, 116-115
Feb. 12, 1988 vs. Milwaukee, 95-93
April 3, 1988 vs. Detroit, 112-110
May 19, 1989 vs. New York, 113-111
March 18, 1997 vs. Seattle, 89-87 (OT)





Just thought people might be interested in knowing this

[mjbulls23]

http://i26.tinypic.com/282izx1.jpg

[KokeAyne]

I guess if it makes you feel better...

:violin:

[griffmoney1984]

http://i26.tinypic.com/282izx1.jpg


i checked my list again. turns out hes 1 behind jordan

still pretty good


the fact that Kobes almost matched Jordan already by age 29 should say allot


Jordan hit his 21st at age 40

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

who's kobe bryant?

[griffmoney1984]

who's kobe bryant?


the second best player in the nba according to Lebron fans

:roll:

[KenneBell]

who's kobe bryant?
Some crazy Italian-speaking dude who plays for LA. Just a slighty above average SG.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

actually he's the 3rd best player behind d wade.

[griffmoney1984]

actually he's the 3rd best player behind d wade.


:roll: /10 fold

you could have atleast said someone whos arguably top 5

like paul, garnett, duncan or something..

[KokeAyne]

:roll: /10 fold

you could have atleast said someone whos arguably top 5

like paul, garnett, duncan or something..

So is Kobe better than MJ?

:rolleyes:

:sleeping

[iamgine]

how long be4 this turns into kobe vs myidol thread?

oh i forgot we dont do that anymore..:banana:

[DuMa]

kobe's not even in my top 10

[Spudjjay]

There was no kept stat before Jordan came allong. but im pretty sure Jordan hit more than bird,west,magic


Kobe Bryant

(1) 05/10/00 - Lakers 97 - Phoenix 96 (playoffs)
(2) 06/14/00 - Lakers 120 - Pacers 118 (playoffs)
(3) 11/16/00 - Lakers 112 - Kings 110
(4) 02/07/01 - Lakers 85 - Phoenix 83
(5) 02/13/01 - Lakers 113 - Nets 110
(6) 01/02/02 - Lakers 87 - Nuggets 86
(7) 02/22/02 - Lakers 96 - Hornets 94
(8) 05/12/02 - Lakers 87 - Spurs 85 (playoffs)
(9) 12/06/02 - Lakers 105 - Dallas 103
(10) 04/04/03 - Lakers 102 - Grizzlies 101
(11) 04/06/03 - Lakers 115 - Suns 113
(12) 12/19/03 - Lakers 101 - Nuggets 99
(13) 02/17/04 - Lakers 89 - Blazers 86
(14) 03/21/04 - Lakers 104 - Bucks 103
(15) 04/14/04 - Lakers 105 - Blazers 104
(16) 03/12/05 - Lakers 117 - Bobcats 116
(17) 11/02/05 - Lakers 99 - Nuggets 97
(18) 01/07/06 - Lakers 112 - Clippers 109
(19) 01/13/06 - Lakers 99 - Cavaliers 98
(20) 04/30/06 - Lakers 99 - Suns 98 (playoffs)
(21) 01/14/08 - Lakers 123 - Seattle 121


Michael Jordan

(1) Nov. 11, 1984 vs. Indiana, 118-116
(2) Dec. 7, 1984 vs. New York, 95-93
(3) April 24, 1985 vs. Milwaukee, 109-107
(4) Nov. 11, 1986 vs. Atlanta, 112-110
(5) Nov. 21, 1986 vs. New York, 101-99
(6) April 15, 1988 vs. New Jersey, 100-99
(7) Feb. 16, 1989 vs. Milwaukee, 117-116
(8) May 7, 1989 vs. Cleveland, 101-100
(9) May 27, 1989 vs. Detroit, 99-97
(10) Nov. 13, 1990 vs. Utah, 84-82
(11) Jan. 22, 1992 vs. Charlotte, 115-112
(12) Nov. 11, 1992 vs. Detroit, 98-96 (OT)
(13) May 17, 1993 vs. Cleveland, 103-101
(14) March 25, 1995 vs. Atlanta, 99-98
(15) Feb. 11, 1997 vs. Charlotte, 103-100
(16) June 1, 1997 vs. Utah, 84-82
(17) February 13, 1998 vs. Atlanta, 112-110
(18) March 22, 1998 vs. Toronto, 102-100
(19) June 14, 1998 vs. Utah, 87-86
(20) December 22, 2001 vs. New York, 87-86
(21) January 31, 2002 vs. Cavaliers, 93-92
(22) February 15, 2002 vs. Suns, 97-96

Jordans Free Throw Winners ( I dont have a coppy of Kobes Free Throw Winners )

March 26, 1985 vs. Indiana, 120-119
Oct. 25, 1985 vs. Cleveland, 116-115
Feb. 12, 1988 vs. Milwaukee, 95-93
April 3, 1988 vs. Detroit, 112-110
May 19, 1989 vs. New York, 113-111
March 18, 1997 vs. Seattle, 89-87 (OT)





Just thought people might be interested in knowing this

:eek:

Damn, can you believe how much greatness that is...

[B-Mac]

Who has hit more in the playoffs ?

[2LeTTeRS KD]

You sure tahts the whole list, I really think you're short-changing MJ on a few.

[griffmoney1984]

So is Kobe better than MJ?

:rolleyes:

:sleeping


Career wise? no

skill wise? yes


hes pretty much equal to jordan in everything except defense. and even then Kobe is only slightly behind. ( being a "going on" 6 time 1st team all nba defensive award winner )

but the thing that makes kobes skill set superior is his usage of his off hand and the ability to play the point, and shoot from downtown

Kobe might not ( and probably wont ) ever reach jordans achivements.

but who cares about team achivements, and media voted awards anyway.

as far as scoring averages. each team is different in what it needs from a player. if kobe wanted he could average 40 a game. but his team wouldnt be as good as they are right now. Kobe is the most important decoy in the nba. he draws so much attention that it would be stupid for kobe to force it. the lakers are a pass 1st unselfish team that wins with great ball movement. Lebron didnt take kobes scoring title. kobe let him have it for the betterment of his team

[KokeAyne]

Career wise? no

skill wise? yes


hes pretty much equal to jordan in everything except defense. and even then Kobe is only slightly behind. ( being a "going on" 6 time 1st team all nba defensive award winner )

but the thing that makes kobes skill set superior is his usage of his off hand and the ability to play the point, and shoot from downtown

Kobe might not ( and probably wont ) ever reach jordans achivements.

but who cares about team achivements, and media voted awards anyway.

as far as scoring averages. each team is different in what it needs from a player. if kobe wanted he could average 40 a game. but his team wouldnt be as good as they are right now. Kobe is the most important decoy in the nba. he draws so much attention that it would be stupid for kobe to force it. the lakers are a pass 1st unselfish team that wins with great ball movement. Lebron didnt take kobes scoring title. kobe let him have it for the betterment of his team

Everybody besides Kobe fans?

[Vendetta]

How many times have Michael's teams blown out the competition to the point of no game winner being necessary?

How many times have Kobe's teams blown out the competition to the point of no game winner being necessary?

How many game winning shots has Michael missed?

How many game winning shots has Kobe missed?

Until you answer all of these questions, this thread is meaningless. Not only that, but Kobe throws games so he can attempt game winning shots. Michael only cared about beating the hell out of people.

[ryantheporchkid]

You're missing some game winners, I am sure. Kobe is barely on the Jerry West career level right now. No one can make the Kobe/MJ comparison because there is no handchecking anymore. Bowen would be an above average defender in the late 80s early 90s. It really isn't possible to compare.

[abdubaba]

You're missing some game winners, I am sure. Kobe is barely on the Jerry West career level right now. No one can make the Kobe/MJ comparison because there is no handchecking anymore. Bowen would be an above average defender in the late 80s early 90s. It really isn't possible to compare.

Teams between 1980 and 2000 averaged 2.7 more ppg than teams from 2001 to 2008

Defence is actually better nowadays

so STFU

[griffmoney1984]

How many times have Michael's teams blown out the competition to the point of no game winner being necessary?

How many times have Kobe's teams blown out the competition to the point of no game winner being necessary?

How many game winning shots has Michael missed?

How many game winning shots has Kobe missed?

Until you answer all of these questions, this thread is meaningless. Not only that, but Kobe throws games so he can attempt game winning shots. Michael only cared about beating the hell out of people.


- how many times has Kobes teams blown out the competition? ( kobe sat over 20 forth quarters just this season )

if anything. Kobes played on a higher percentage of title contending teams in his career.

- Probably as many as Jordans missed

- why are you so mad? just accept the fact that it was inevitable for Kobe to eventualy reach this mile stone.

[Kobe24]

Oh, I remember this guy from ESPN boards. Think of PleezeBelieve/all his other screenames.... but worse. Not kidding.

[Vendetta]

- how many times has Kobes teams blown out the competition? ( kobe sat over 20 forth quarters just this season )

if anything. Kobes played on a higher percentage of title contending teams in his career.

- Probably as many as Jordans missed

- why are you so mad? just accept the fact that it was inevitable for Kobe to eventualy reach this mile stone.

When did I say I was mad or even act it?

*shrugs*

It doesn't matter if Kobe hits another 10 game winners for the duration of his career... if I need a bucket and I have to choose between the two, I'm taking Mike every single time.

[mjbulls23]

hes pretty much equal to jordan in everything except defense.

The thing with Kobe's D is that even though he is one of the best when he turns it up, he lets up on his defense when he goes on a high scoring spree. A young MJ didn't let up his D even while scoring 50

Also Kobe is not as consistent, is not as good as MJ in the post, doesn't have his footwork, is not as individually dominant as MJ was in any given game, and hes nowhere near the playoff performer that Jordan was, especially in the clutch..




Teams between 1980 and 2000 averaged 2.7 more ppg than teams from 2001 to 2008

Defence is actually better nowadays

so STFU

:oldlol:

MJ, Magic, Bird, Barkley, etc, played in an era where you actually were allowed to play defense. And Jordan played when despite getting favored by the refs he couldn't get the calls Wade, AI, Bron, and Kobe do. The rules have changed in their favors. The NBA today allows a zone but teams don't really use it well and teams in the 80s used it too they just got away with it(unless they were playing Pat Riley who loved to point it out to refs when his own team wasn't using one).

You cant even handcheck a guy anymore. Much less all the **** Rodman, Moncrief, Jones, Gerald Wilkins, Starks, Dumars, nance, DJ, and such did to MJ. And the athletic difference between the best modern outside defenders and MJs isnt big. The best man to man defender now is probably Bruce Bowen who is hardly an athletic freak. Hes just determined, with good fundamentals, and allowed to play alllllllmost like 90s defenders could. So there is prince. There was Bobby Jones, Gerald Wilklins, Spider Smith(with his 7'6'' wingspan) and Larry Nance who guarded everyone from 2-5. Nance athletically may have no current better of his build. Closest would be Josh Smith. Nance wasl ike 6'10'' both fast and quick(difference) with hops like few ive ever seen.

There are tough bigmen like Ben Wallace now. No current center is either as athletic or skilled on D as Hakeem and Drob were. Or Ewing for that matter if you use pre injury Ewing. Which bigmen now are better disrupting an offense than Zo was? Or Mutombo?

How many pointguards now are better defenders than Gary Payton was? Or Alvin Robertson? Or Derek Harper? How many swingmen are better defenders than Pippen, Jordan, Rodman(who was a swingman type early and the best 3/4 defender later), Cooper Moncrief, and so on? How many 4s are better defenders than Oakley, Williams, and Mccray? I can think of 2. And Jordan played both.

Is this all D team:

Ben
Bowen
AK
Artest
Kidd
Kobe(they had 6 last year with a tie)

really better than this one from 10 years ago?

Payton
Jordan
Pippen
Rodman
Drob



[SIZE="1"]

[KokeAyne]

No matter what anybody says, no matter what stats they bring up, no matter what comparisons they make - people will never remember Kobe the way they remember MJ.

Kobe fans can cry themselves to sleep every night repeating "Kobe is better than MJ" but in 10, 20, 30 years MJ will still be remembered as the greatest player to play the game.

[2LeTTeRS KD]

Career wise? no

skill wise? yes


hes pretty much equal to jordan in everything except defense. and even then Kobe is only slightly behind. ( being a "going on" 6 time 1st team all nba defensive award winner )

but the thing that makes kobes skill set superior is his usage of his off hand and the ability to play the point, and shoot from downtown

Kobe might not ( and probably wont ) ever reach jordans achivements.

but who cares about team achivements, and media voted awards anyway.

as far as scoring averages. each team is different in what it needs from a player. if kobe wanted he could average 40 a game. but his team wouldnt be as good as they are right now. Kobe is the most important decoy in the nba. he draws so much attention that it would be stupid for kobe to force it. the lakers are a pass 1st unselfish team that wins with great ball movement. Lebron didnt take kobes scoring title. kobe let him have it for the betterment of his team

Sorry to take the bait, but I can't help it. What you said isn't true, MJ played point for a whole season and had about 11 straight triple doubles in a row, while Kobe has never played point for an extended period. How does that equal Kobe having superior ability to play point guard? As far as individual skillset, MJ also had superior athleticism (he was quicker, more explosive and had much bigger hands than Kobe) and a better basketball IQ. All Kobe really has on Mike is more range on his J.

[abdubaba]

[QUOTE=mjbulls23]The thing with Kobe's D is that even though he is one of the best when he turns it up, he lets up on his defense when he goes on a high scoring spree. A young MJ didn't let up his D even while scoring 50

Also Kobe is not as consistent, is not as good as MJ in the post, doesn't have his footwork, is not as individually dominant as MJ was in any given game, and hes nowhere near the playoff performer that Jordan was, especially in the clutch..




:oldlol:

MJ, Magic, Bird, Barkley, etc, played in an era where you actually were allowed to play defense. And Jordan played when despite getting favored by the refs he couldn't get the calls Wade, AI, Bron, and Kobe do. The rules have changed in their favors. The NBA today allows a zone but teams don't really use it well and teams in the 80s used it too they just got away with it(unless they were playing Pat Riley who loved to point it out to refs when his own team wasn't using one).

You cant even handcheck a guy anymore. Much less all the **** Rodman, Moncrief, Jones, Gerald Wilkins, Starks, Dumars, nance, DJ, and such did to MJ. And the athletic difference between the best modern outside defenders and MJs isnt big. The best man to man defender now is probably Bruce Bowen who is hardly an athletic freak. Hes just determined, with good fundamentals, and allowed to play alllllllmost like 90s defenders could. So there is prince. There was Bobby Jones, Gerald Wilklins, Spider Smith(with his 7'6'' wingspan) and Larry Nance who guarded everyone from 2-5. Nance athletically may have no current better of his build. Closest would be Josh Smith. Nance wasl ike 6'10'' both fast and quick(difference) with hops like few ive ever seen.

There are tough bigmen like Ben Wallace now. No current center is either as athletic or skilled on D as Hakeem and Drob were. Or Ewing for that matter if you use pre injury Ewing. Which bigmen now are better disrupting an offense than Zo was? Or Mutombo?

How many pointguards now are better defenders than Gary Payton was? Or Alvin Robertson? Or Derek Harper? How many swingmen are better defenders than Pippen, Jordan, Rodman(who was a swingman type early and the best 3/4 defender later), Cooper Moncrief, and so on? How many 4s are better defenders than Oakley, Williams, and Mccray? I can think of 2. And Jordan played both.

Is this all D team:

Ben
Bowen
AK
Artest
Kidd
Kobe(they had 6 last year with a tie)

really better than this one from 10 years ago?

Payton
Jordan
Pippen
Rodman
Drob



[SIZE="1"]

[ryantheporchkid]

I was just looking up that Kblaze post.

[2LeTTeRS KD]

Teams between 1980 and 2000 averaged 2.7 more ppg than teams from 2001 to 2008

Defence is actually better nowadays

so STFU

You're judging defense by points scored? Wow. Thats very dumb, as well as misleading. You can't judge D on how many points are scored in a game, try comparing field goal percentages. Pace is just as important in the number of points scored in a game as quality of defense, percentage is not affected by it therefore making it a much better indicator.

[mjbulls23]

DUDE. teams in hjordans era scored more points. what is your point

the defense is not better. If you go purely by stats then I'll say LeBron is a better scorer than Kobe since he averaged more pts this season :hammerhead:

[BonyFaceNDong]

How many times have Michael's teams blown out the competition to the point of no game winner being necessary?

How many times have Kobe's teams blown out the competition to the point of no game winner being necessary?

How many game winning shots has Michael missed?

How many game winning shots has Kobe missed?

Until you answer all of these questions, this thread is meaningless. Not only that, but Kobe throws games so he can attempt game winning shots. Michael only cared about beating the hell out of people.

Agree. And one more thing: How many game winning assists Jordan had in playoffs alone? Like NBA final winning assists to Paxon and Kerr etc.

How many game winning assists Kobe ever had in his career?

[2LeTTeRS KD]

DUDE. teams in hjordans era scored more points. what is your point

Team's in Jordan's era also took more shots. Again you're point makes no sense.

[yeesterbunny]

- how many times has Kobes teams blown out the competition? ( kobe sat over 20 forth quarters just this season )

if anything. Kobes played on a higher percentage of title contending teams in his career.

- Probably as many as Jordans missed

- why are you so mad? just accept the fact that it was inevitable for Kobe to eventualy reach this mile stone.

Higher percentage of title contending teams? I think you're just in a phase where you think "current is better". MJ faced many oppositions along his way, and he obliterated them all. People only remember winners, and Jordan was the most dominant winner of the 90's. Maybe that is why you are not aware of that, despite era, there are always great title contending teams.

What milestone? Kobe havent even won a champ with himself being the best player on the team. Of course, Kobe still has time to prove himself, and it seems like he's the closest to jordan that we've seen. But until he proves himself, please dont say things like "it is inevitable for kobe to eventually reach this milestone". It's possible, but I highly doubt it.

[abdubaba]

You're judging defense by points scored? Wow. Thats very dumb, as well as misleading. You can't judge D on how many points are scored in a game, try comparing field goal percentages. Pace is just as important in the number of points scored in a game as quality of defense, percentage is not affected by it therefore making it a much better indicator.

at the end teams scored a whoping 2.7 more point per game. that is a lot men. open ur eyes

[2LeTTeRS KD]

at the end teams scored a whoping 2.7 more point per game. that is a lot men. open ur eyes

Open my eyes? If you really think D now is better than it was in the 80s and 90s you didn't watch basketball then. What has happened is defense had advanced so much faster than offense had that David Stern changed the rules of the game to open the game up offensively. Basically the same thing that happened in the passing game in the NFL where basically you can't touch a receiver any more at all without pass interference being called that has inflated all the stats of receivers has happened in the NBA as well.

[abdubaba]

Open my eyes? If you really think D now is better than it was in the 80s and 90s you didn't watch basketball then. What has happened is defense had advanced so much faster than offense had that David Stern changed the rules of the game to open the game up offensively. Basically the same thing that happened in the passing game in the NFL where basically you can't touch a receiver any more at all without pass interference being called that has inflated all the stats of receivers has happened in the NBA as well.

duhhh. ur way teams will be scoring more now. 2.7 more PPG over a 20 year period is a lot.

there are now better athletes and better structured defences. teams those days were just pretenders who sucked at defence.

2.7 MORE PPG. do you know how hard that is to make up for?

geezzzz

[mjbulls23]

teams those days were just pretenders who sucked at defence.


Michael Jordan vs 80's defenses, breakdown & explained. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=kp53zWynjh4)



Kobe Bryant's 81 point game - great offense??? bad defense?? (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Gy8fk1zjrfE)

[Psileas]

1) The list is somewhat flawed in that some of these baskets won't be accepted by everyone as game-winning shots.

2) Game-winning FT's should count as well. Scoring points matters, not scoring exclusively FG's.

3) These lists would mean something if they included game-winners by all clutch players in history. I'm sure Reggie, West, Bird, Havlicek, Magic, Kareem or even Horry, DJ and Stockton, all these guys had a lot of game-winners, as well. I read somewhere that Bird alone scored game winning baskets in the final 5 seconds of 11 games.
Actually, considering that Reggie never played for really dominant teams, he may actually have more game-winners than anyone ever.

[Da_Realist]

Y'all are getting suckered. Some dude finds some stat that says Kobe is near MJ on something and everyone on this board goes crazy trying to defend MJ. Like a dog chasing it's own tail, you're gonna get nowhere but frustrated.

MJ > Kobe. Not because of whatever stats someone can come up with. It's not close. Allow Kobe fans to bask in the fact that some of Kobe's stats *may* stack up in some way, shape, form or fashion.

[Laker4Lyfe]

http://i26.tinypic.com/282izx1.jpg

:applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:
:roll::roll::roll:

[ryantheporchkid]

Michael Jordan vs 80's defenses, breakdown & explained. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=kp53zWynjh4)



Kobe Bryant's 81 point game - great offense??? bad defense?? (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Gy8fk1zjrfE)


those were great great videos.

[brandonislegend]

http://i26.tinypic.com/282izx1.jpg

+1

[~LA's fine$t~]

those were great great videos.

Actually they weren't, they were made by someone of Loki's caliber who has nothing better to do then belittle anything Kobe has done through out his career...no surprise another insecure Bulls fan posted that garbage on here.

As far as the thread itself, this is getting really old now...you kids need to get a life, seriously.

[Pujolsmj23]

MJs game-winners that should b counted werent.EXAMPLES!!!! 1992 ECF Game 6 Game-winning drive jumper with 37 seconds left.Sends them 2 1992 NBA FINALS.11/13/89 vs cavs game-winning layup 39 seconds left...11/30/84 vs Clippers game-winning layup with 59 seconds left.2/21/03 game-winner 43 seconds left...4/24/98 vs nets PLAYOFFS 43 seconds left game-winner.6/11/97 NBA FINALS GAME 5 FLU GAME Game-winning 3 25 seconds left...11/27/95 29 seconds left game-winning jumper...11/24/90 vs nuggets 37 seconds left game-winning jumper.4/7/96 vs Magic 56 seconds left gamewinning jumper.2/15/96 vs pistons 50 seconds left game winning jumper.1988 Playoffs game 2 vs cavs Gamewinning jumper with 59 seconds left...11/9/92 vs pacers gamewinning jumper with 50 seconds left... I COULD GO ON BUT THESE R NOT GAME SEALERS THESE BROKE THE TIE AND R listed as game-winners today and arent listed 4 MJ.NOTICE the 1992 ECF SHOT ON Cavs THATS NEVER SEEN OR SHOWN IT WAS IN PLAYOFFS 2 GO 2 THE NBA FINALS AND ITS NOT LISTED OR REMEMBERED OR HIS FLU GAME 3..THese r just a few Ive listed.MJ hit a alot more than u think .Look these games up 2 see if im lying....MJ IS CLUTCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[KINGD]

Yup.Just another reason why Kobe is the G.O.A.T.

[Kobe=MVP07`]

Michael Jordan vs 80's defenses, breakdown & explained. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=kp53zWynjh4)



Kobe Bryant's 81 point game - great offense??? bad defense?? (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Gy8fk1zjrfE)



if there were zones back in MJs day it would be alot harder for him to score
the zone is designed to cut 1 on 1 penetration

id take handchecking over the zone anyday!

[mjbulls23]

no surprise another insecure Bulls fan posted that garbage on here.

only reason I post those vids is to shut the trolls up. Not insecurity. No need to make completely blind assumptions based on your immediate feelings.


And its not surprising coming from a Lakers fan

I have been doing my best not to generalize you guys in one group, but I'm really not sure anymore since I can't distinguish you guys apart anymore

[mjbulls23]

if there were zones back in MJs day it would be alot harder for him to score
the zone is designed to cut 1 on 1 penetration

id take handchecking over the zone anyday!

cool

[shaoyut]

:roll:
http://i26.tinypic.com/282izx1.jpg

[Poseidon]

http://i26.tinypic.com/282izx1.jpg

How many times are you going to post this gif? I mean it was funny the first several times you posted this, but the " :oldlol: " factor is starting to wear off. Just an FYI.

[mjbulls23]

How many times are you going to post this gif? I mean it was funny the first several times you posted this, but the " :oldlol: " factor is starting to wear off. Just an FYI.

that's good to know

[~LA's fine$t~]

And its not surprising coming from a Lakers fan

I have been doing my best not to generalize you guys in one group, but I'm really not sure anymore since you can't distinguish them apart at times..

You make no sense, what are you generalizing?
My patriotism toward my favorite teams best player? Kobe dropped 81 points, as a Laker fan I have never seen such a feat in my life...you expect me to sit here and quietly watch another Bulls fan post a video disparaging Kobe's accomplishments.

What can't you distinguish exactly? Show me a time where I stooped to your level by posting some lame videos dethroning Jordan of his accomplishments?

I guess you have to be a Laker fan to understand why we get upset whenever we see a great player like Kobe get scrutinized by various people, most of them are insecure Jordan fans.

The only thing I ever did to remotely degrade Jordan on this forum is claim that in my opinion, Kareem is the greatest of all-time.

But you can continue to generalize whatever you like, to be honest...your opinion ain't making me take any NYQUIL's.

[KINGD]

Pathetic how insecure these Jordan fans are.:roll:

[mjbulls23]

You make no sense, what are you generalizing?
My patriotism toward my favorite teams best player? Kobe dropped 81 points, as a Laker fan I have never seen such a feat in my life...you expect me to sit here and quietly watch another Bulls fan post a video disparaging Kobe's accomplishemtn

What can't you distinguish exactly? Show me a time where I stooped to you level by posting some lame videos dethroning Jordan of his accomplishments?

I guess you have to be a Laker fan to understand why we get upset whenever we see a great player like Kobe get scrutinized by various people, most of them are insecure Jordan fans.

The only thing I ever did to remotely degrade Jordan on this forum is claim that in my opinion, Kareem is the greatest of all-time.

But you can continue to generalize whatever you like, to be honest...your opinion ain't making me take any NYQUIL's.


Who said I was talking directly about you? I'm just saying, outside of a couple posters, I honestly can't tell the difference. And not everything I say is aimed as a "personal attack". :oldlol: :hammerhead: Sorry if you took it that way


And which Jordan fan on this board would you consider a Kobe hater (besides Loki & puslomj23 :confusedshrug: )?... there's a bunch of other Kobe haters who have other favorite players too if you haven't noticed.

And once again, the reason I posted the vid is to get rid of the trolls. There's a reason we have a General Kobe Bryant Thread. I honestly don't care about Kobe "fans" degrading MJ anymore, because it's expected. I just cant stand them trolling in this forum and the fact that they tear apart any person mentioned in a sentence with Kobe (yes, even more than MJ "fans"), despite the fact that he is still playing. I've even seen them go as far as bashing Magic Johnson, who is another GOAT candidate. Common sense should tell you why.


Anyways, lets just forget about this. I don't need to get banned over meaningless arguments


nothing personal against you, ~LA's fine$t~ :cheers:

[mjbulls23]

This message is hidden because KINGD is on your ignore list.

:pimp:

[griffmoney1984]

listen. i see allot of angry people calling foul on my list.


but hey... THATS WHY I LISTED THE DATES TEAMS AND SCORES.

LOOK EM UP

just go to yahoo and paste the teams and final scores. every single box score and recap is saved since the late 90's

[~LA's fine$t~]

nothing personal against you, ~LA's fine$t~

:cheers: You too bro.

[KINGD]

[QUOTE=mjbulls23]:pimp:[/
Excellant. Can't stand these pathetic and insecure MJ fans.:pimp:

[Pujolsmj23]

MJs game-winners that should b counted werent.EXAMPLES!!!! 1992 ECF Game 6 Game-winning drive jumper with 37 seconds left.Sends them 2 1992 NBA FINALS.11/13/89 vs cavs game-winning layup 39 seconds left...11/30/84 vs Clippers game-winning layup with 59 seconds left.2/21/03 game-winner 43 seconds left...4/24/98 vs nets PLAYOFFS 43 seconds left game-winner.6/11/97 NBA FINALS GAME 5 FLU GAME Game-winning 3 25 seconds left...11/27/95 29 seconds left game-winning jumper...11/24/90 vs nuggets 37 seconds left game-winning jumper.4/7/96 vs Magic 56 seconds left gamewinning jumper.2/15/96 vs pistons 50 seconds left game winning jumper.1988 Playoffs game 2 vs cavs Gamewinning jumper with 59 seconds left...11/9/92 vs pacers gamewinning jumper with 50 seconds left... I COULD GO ON BUT THESE R NOT GAME SEALERS THESE BROKE THE TIE AND R listed as game-winners today and arent listed 4 MJ.NOTICE the 1992 ECF SHOT ON Cavs THATS NEVER SEEN OR SHOWN IT WAS IN PLAYOFFS 2 GO 2 THE NBA FINALS AND ITS NOT LISTED OR REMEMBERED OR HIS FLU GAME 3..THese r just a few Ive listed.MJ hit a alot more than u think .Look these games up 2 see if im lying....MJ IS CLUTCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[XxNeXuSxX]

Not to mention, he shoots a horrid 21% on gamewinners.
(http://82games.com/random12.htm)
I could also mention how obviously flawed your list is, but I'll play along and request a source.

[XxNeXuSxX]

From the data exerpts from 82games


Carmelo Anthony has not only delivered the most "game winning/tying buckets" in the final moments, he's also done it at a rate that's over twice the NBA average!

Kobe Bryant meanwhile has indeed had seven such made shots over the past three seasons (including playoffs), but at a pretty low conversion rate, even factoring in his free throws.

The other thing with Kobe and a number of go-to guys is that they are not looking to pass the ball! Zero assists in these "final possession" states for Bryant with 32 shots taken (the most for any player with zero assists) says something.

Paul Pierce is one of the few star scorers who also dole out assists in the waning moments, with a nice balance of made baskets, free throws, and five dimes.

LeBron James has had some game winners lately to reach the bottom of the leader list, but there are notable players who haven't had the "qualifying" four game winning baskets.

Steve Nash does lead the NBA during this timeframe in most assists leading to game winning/tying baskets. His own shot however has not been falling.

Hilarious how Ricky Davis was only one behind him for that entire stretch (3 seasons).

[Kobe24]

He has 0 assists but I can recall several times he's passed up game winning attempts to his teammates and they didn't convert. This year alone, he passed up many.

[~LA's fine$t~]

Hilarious how Ricky Davis was only one behind him for that entire stretch (3 seasons).

Yeah it's hilarious how you consider a player's clutch ability only based on his ability to hit late game winning shots. But I agree, Kobe makes poor decisions with the ball on his final shots...he never attempts to drive inside for an easy bucket.

What about bringing your team back from a deficit, or carrying your team in the final minutes?
Kobe is the best at that, that's why he's consider by many the most clutch player in the game. Along side LeBron, Baron and Gilbert.

[XxNeXuSxX]

He has 0 assists but I can recall several times he's passed up game winning attempts to his teammates and they didn't convert. This year alone, he passed up many.

Fair enough.


Yeah it's hilarious how you consider a player's clutch ability only based on his ability to hit late game winning shots.
Who said that? I'm responding to the topic of Game winning shots. And the fact he can't pull away from Ricky Davis (Everyone's "OMG LOSER, BONAFIDE CANCER!!") makes me think it's doubtful he's around Michael Jordan with such a poor conversion rate.



What about bringing your team back from a deficit, or carrying your team in the final minutes?
Kobe is the best at that, that's why he's consider by many the most clutch player in the game. Along side LeBron, Baron and Gilbert.

That's fine, I'd say he has an argument for being extremely clutch throughout the fourth quarter of games. I'm not going to pretend he's not.

[~LA's fine$t~]

I'm sorry, it was my mistake I forgot what this thread was about. I thought it was being clutch in general.

[fishysmiles13]

kobe's not even in my top 10

Whatever you drank last, I wanna try some of that :)

[Loki]

There was no kept stat before Jordan came allong. but im pretty sure Jordan hit more than bird,west,magic


Kobe Bryant

(1) 05/10/00 - Lakers 97 - Phoenix 96 (playoffs)
(2) 06/14/00 - Lakers 120 - Pacers 118 (playoffs)
(3) 11/16/00 - Lakers 112 - Kings 110
(4) 02/07/01 - Lakers 85 - Phoenix 83
(5) 02/13/01 - Lakers 113 - Nets 110
(6) 01/02/02 - Lakers 87 - Nuggets 86
(7) 02/22/02 - Lakers 96 - Hornets 94
(8) 05/12/02 - Lakers 87 - Spurs 85 (playoffs)
(9) 12/06/02 - Lakers 105 - Dallas 103
(10) 04/04/03 - Lakers 102 - Grizzlies 101
(11) 04/06/03 - Lakers 115 - Suns 113
(12) 12/19/03 - Lakers 101 - Nuggets 99
(13) 02/17/04 - Lakers 89 - Blazers 86
(14) 03/21/04 - Lakers 104 - Bucks 103
(15) 04/14/04 - Lakers 105 - Blazers 104
(16) 03/12/05 - Lakers 117 - Bobcats 116
(17) 11/02/05 - Lakers 99 - Nuggets 97
(18) 01/07/06 - Lakers 112 - Clippers 109
(19) 01/13/06 - Lakers 99 - Cavaliers 98
(20) 04/30/06 - Lakers 99 - Suns 98 (playoffs)
(21) 01/14/08 - Lakers 123 - Seattle 121


Michael Jordan

(1) Nov. 11, 1984 vs. Indiana, 118-116
(2) Dec. 7, 1984 vs. New York, 95-93
(3) April 24, 1985 vs. Milwaukee, 109-107
(4) Nov. 11, 1986 vs. Atlanta, 112-110
(5) Nov. 21, 1986 vs. New York, 101-99
(6) April 15, 1988 vs. New Jersey, 100-99
(7) Feb. 16, 1989 vs. Milwaukee, 117-116
(8) May 7, 1989 vs. Cleveland, 101-100
(9) May 27, 1989 vs. Detroit, 99-97
(10) Nov. 13, 1990 vs. Utah, 84-82
(11) Jan. 22, 1992 vs. Charlotte, 115-112
(12) Nov. 11, 1992 vs. Detroit, 98-96 (OT)
(13) May 17, 1993 vs. Cleveland, 103-101
(14) March 25, 1995 vs. Atlanta, 99-98
(15) Feb. 11, 1997 vs. Charlotte, 103-100
(16) June 1, 1997 vs. Utah, 84-82
(17) February 13, 1998 vs. Atlanta, 112-110
(18) March 22, 1998 vs. Toronto, 102-100
(19) June 14, 1998 vs. Utah, 87-86
(20) December 22, 2001 vs. New York, 87-86
(21) January 31, 2002 vs. Cavaliers, 93-92
(22) February 15, 2002 vs. Suns, 97-96

Jordans Free Throw Winners ( I dont have a coppy of Kobes Free Throw Winners )

March 26, 1985 vs. Indiana, 120-119
Oct. 25, 1985 vs. Cleveland, 116-115
Feb. 12, 1988 vs. Milwaukee, 95-93
April 3, 1988 vs. Detroit, 112-110
May 19, 1989 vs. New York, 113-111
March 18, 1997 vs. Seattle, 89-87 (OT)





Just thought people might be interested in knowing this

You do realize that Jordan has game-winners that aren't on his "official" list, right? People just didn't give enough of a damn to compile stuff like that back in the day. I personally know of at least 5 such examples from games i have on tape (vs. Milwaukee in video below, vs. Milwaukee in '87 or '88, vs. Orlando, and vs. Cleveland in the '92 playoffs, and vs. Utah in the "flu" game; there are doubtless many others).

On top of that, "game winners" for guys like Kobe and Melo today ARE NOT counted by the same criteria as the GW's for Jordan were. With Jordan, they only counted shots at the end of game clock or the last score of the game for either team as GW's; nowadays, the other team can score after you put your team up for good (or your team can score FT's etc.) and they still count it as a GW, even if the shot occurs at like the 15-40 second mark. This used to be called a "go ahead" basket (and you can verify this by looking for video of some of Kobe's GW shot games and watching the end of game circumstances); god knows how many of these sorts of shots Jordan had. Basically only "buzzer beaters" were counted on Jordan's GW list; not so for Kobe.

Don't believe me? Watch the 1:27-1:51 mark of this video and follow the commentary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9bzrWTff5U

Why is this not on the above Jordan list? Not only are the criteria they used not the same for each player, but many shots for Jordan simply aren't accounted for period.


And regardless, what's this comparison supposed to prove anyway? Jordan wasn't involved in many close games after 1990. Kobe's FG% on game-winners is something like 25%, while Jordan not coming through on GW's was exceedingly rare, comparatively. All this shows is that Kobe has been involved in a ton of close game situations, took all of the GW shots (he doesn't have an assist in a GW situation in the last 5-6 years; Jordan had a ton of GW assists), and converted on a relatively poor percentage of them. How is that something to trumpet?



You sure tahts the whole list, I really think you're short-changing MJ on a few.

Without question. See above. These are the facts.

[Loki]

Career wise? no

skill wise? yes


hes pretty much equal to jordan in everything except defense. and even then Kobe is only slightly behind. ( being a "going on" 6 time 1st team all nba defensive award winner )

but the thing that makes kobes skill set superior is his usage of his off hand and the ability to play the point, and shoot from downtown


:oldlol:

Holy sh!t is this risible. :oldlol: The only thing in there with even a shred of legitimacy is the bolded portion.

Kobe better with his off hand than Jordan? Not at finishing; not at handling really either, if you look at taking care of the ball. Kobe better at "playing the point"? That's just a joke, really. Kobe pretty much Jordan's equal in every respect? Pass the pipe, kid. :hammerhead:

[Jailblazers7]

The magnitude of the shots that Jordan has hit is what seperates his game winner's.

[Loki]

MJs game-winners that should b counted werent.EXAMPLES!!!! 1992 ECF Game 6 Game-winning drive jumper with 37 seconds left.Sends them 2 1992 NBA FINALS.11/13/89 vs cavs game-winning layup 39 seconds left...11/30/84 vs Clippers game-winning layup with 59 seconds left.2/21/03 game-winner 43 seconds left...4/24/98 vs nets PLAYOFFS 43 seconds left game-winner.6/11/97 NBA FINALS GAME 5 FLU GAME Game-winning 3 25 seconds left...11/27/95 29 seconds left game-winning jumper...11/24/90 vs nuggets 37 seconds left game-winning jumper.4/7/96 vs Magic 56 seconds left gamewinning jumper.2/15/96 vs pistons 50 seconds left game winning jumper.1988 Playoffs game 2 vs cavs Gamewinning jumper with 59 seconds left...11/9/92 vs pacers gamewinning jumper with 50 seconds left... I COULD GO ON BUT THESE R NOT GAME SEALERS THESE BROKE THE TIE AND R listed as game-winners today and arent listed 4 MJ.NOTICE the 1992 ECF SHOT ON Cavs THATS NEVER SEEN OR SHOWN IT WAS IN PLAYOFFS 2 GO 2 THE NBA FINALS AND ITS NOT LISTED OR REMEMBERED OR HIS FLU GAME 3..THese r just a few Ive listed.MJ hit a alot more than u think .Look these games up 2 see if im lying....MJ IS CLUTCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Completely agreed, as I have many of these games on tape. People just don't understand that this sort of stuff wasn't documented back then (even for Jordan) as much as it is now. Anyone can go see this stuff for themselves. All of these and more (including the ones i listed) would be counted as "game winners" today for guys like Kobe/Melo under the criteria they use, and many should have even been counted under the criteria they used for Jordan's list, but they just weren't accounted for.

[omarnyc]

why is it so important to kobe fans that he match or pass jordan in everything?

[miller-time]

why is it so important to kobe fans that he match or pass jordan in everything?

because their god is the one true god.

the one thing kobe will never beat jordan at is being michael jordan.

[BIZARRO]

They have a Michael Jordan/Kobe Bryant detailed comparison on an IMDB site with a trillion stats where MJ>KB that is pretty good and comprehensive:

From that site:

"Game winning shots
Michael Jordan: 33 out of 58 attempts (56.9%)"



This MJ 33 to KB 21 seems a lot more accurate IMO than just a shot difference.

[BIZARRO]

why is it so important to kobe fans that he match or pass jordan in everything?


Because he matches or passes him in almost nothing.

[Pujolsmj23]

Thanks 4 seeing that Loki.People read my post..PG3

[Splash]

Completely agreed, as I have many of these games on tape. People just don't understand that this sort of stuff wasn't documented back then (even for Jordan) as much as it is now. Anyone can go see this stuff for themselves. All of these and more (including the ones i listed) would be counted as "game winners" today for guys like Kobe/Melo under the criteria they use, and many should have even been counted under the criteria they used for Jordan's list, but they just weren't accounted for.

You need to understand that if the shot is not documented then it doesn't count. :hammerhead:

[statman32]

Just to let you know. The threadstarter is the dame guy who wrote this in another thread...



its amaizing how hypocritical people are...


90% of people age's 16-30 smoke weed.

i dont. but absolutely every single person ive ever known has.

and the only reason i dont is because im allergic. my lungs get infected and its verry hard to breath...

i once lived in an apartment with people who smoked and i ended up in the hospital after a month


:roll:

[Pujolsmj23]

I guess if its not on the list it didnt happen.Mj hits a series winning shot in 92 to go to the NBA FINALS and nobody counts it or remembers.If Kobe did 1 of the 20 clutch things MJ did in the highest stage they would say hes better than MJ.MJ has shots youve never seen.If this shot is not remembered no wonder no regular season game would b remembered...1992 game 6 vs Cavs ECF Check it out yourself!!!

[Loki]

You need to understand that if the shot is not documented then it doesn't count. :hammerhead:

And you need to understand that if the shot actually HAPPENED (as can be seen in the videos of the games), then it SHOULD HAVE BEEN documented but wasn't. :hammerhead:

[Splash]

And you need to understand that if the shot actually HAPPENED (as can be seen in the videos of the games), then it SHOULD HAVE BEEN documented but wasn't. :hammerhead:

Good job. :applause:

[Loki]

Good job. :applause:

Indeed. :hammerhead:

[strifed169]

could you list the lebron g/winners

[TmacsRockets]

Yup.Just another reason why Kobe is the G.O.A.T.

Not even close. Jordan is the only player in NBA History to average 30 ppg in the season, playoffs and finals.

In fact Jordan is the only player to even average at least 30.0 ppg in the playoffs for his career. No one else can say that neither do anyone have 6 finals mvp's. Seriously how does Kobe even compare?

When Kobe was in the finals this is what he did:

Kobe in the finals

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/zillgitt/2004-06-15-zillgitt_x.htm

In 35 Finals games, Jordan averaged 33.6 points, 6.0 rebounds and 6.0 assists a game.

In 20 Finals games, Bryant has averaged 22.2 points, 5.2 rebounds and 4.9 assists a game.


It's not even close.

[Dizzle-2k7]

Good shlt Loki.. but still you named maybe 4-6 gamewinners.. so Kobe is still less then a dime away from the GREATEST OF ALL TIME. And Kobe still got a good 5 years left of 25+ppg.. so its very possible he ties or breaks Jordans record.

Would that make him > Jordan? of course not.. but it brings him even closer to the GOAT (how is it even possible he gets closer? theyre mirror images of eachother)

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

In 35 Finals games, Jordan averaged 33.6 points, 6.0 rebounds and 6.0 assists a game.

In 20 Finals games, Bryant has averaged 22.2 points, 5.2 rebounds and 4.9 assists a game.


It's not even close.

:roll:
was Jordan required to dump the ball down to Shaq every damn play? Do you think that would affect his scoring average?

[Da_Realist]

Would that make him > Jordan? of course not.. but it brings him even closer to the GOAT (how is it even possible he gets closer? theyre mirror images of eachother)

It seems like a lot of Kobe fans think chasing numbers is the best way for him to be regarded as the GOAT. It's more than just stats that separate Kobe and MJ.

Stats will just bring Kobe to the table, it doesn't mean he'll get to eat.

I'll give just one reason I feel like there's a larger gap than just pure numbers. I never saw MJ quit. Even when he was beaten on a play, he didn't quit.

Here's something (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkRzE8oroMs) that illustrates what I'm talking about.

In the first play, John Stockton stole the ball from MJ on his way to a layup late in game 4 of the 97 Finals. You can see how MJ stalked him all the way up the court, jumped, and pinned the ball on the glass. The refs made a tough call (No way was that a foul) but that's beside the point. Most stars would have conceded this basket.

The second play occurs in Game 7 1992 ECF against New York. MJ scores a basket, steals the inbounds pass, gets the ball stripped by John Starks who passes to Xavier McDaniel for what seemed to be an uncontested layup. MJ chases him down and strips him as the X-man was stretching for a dunk. Again, most players would have conceded this basket.

The point is...what seperated MJ from others was not just his averages or the way he scored. It was a relentless desire to win no matter what it took. He never quit even when he was beaten. That's not something you can measure by a stat sheet.

So, unless Kobe or Lebron shows this sort of desire on BOTH ends of the court I will not consider either one better than MJ no matter what the stats say.

[mjbulls23]

It seems like a lot of Kobe fans think chasing numbers is the best way for him to be regarded as the GOAT. It's more than just stats that separate Kobe and MJ.

Stats will just bring Kobe to the table, it doesn't mean he'll get to eat.

I'll give just one reason I feel like there's a larger gap than just pure numbers. I never saw MJ quit. Even when he was beaten on a play, he didn't quit.

Here's something (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkRzE8oroMs) that illustrates what I'm talking about.

In the first play, John Stockton stole the ball from MJ on his way to a layup late in game 4 of the 97 Finals. You can see how MJ stalked him all the way up the court, jumped, and pinned the ball on the glass. The refs made a tough call (No way was that a foul) but that's beside the point. Most stars would have conceded this basket.

The second play occurs in Game 7 1992 ECF against New York. MJ scores a basket, steals the inbounds pass, gets the ball stripped by John Starks who passes to Xavier McDaniel for what seemed to be an uncontested layup. MJ chases him down and strips him as the X-man was stretching for a dunk. Again, most players would have conceded this basket.

The point is...what seperated MJ from others was not just his averages or the way he scored. It was a relentless desire to win no matter what it took. He never quit even when he was beaten. That's not something you can measure by a stat sheet.

So, unless Kobe or Lebron consistently shows this sort of desire on BOTH ends of the court I will not consider either one better than MJ no matter what the stats say.


fixed.

I've seen flashes of it from Kobe at times. But consistency is obviously the huge difference. And great post BTW :applause: :applause:

[hateraid]

Keeping this argument relative to the thread title and not a Kobe vs. Michael thread,

The significance of Jordan's game winners > The significance of Kobe's game winners

Game winner aginst the Cavs series winner and his infamous "last shot" (as a Bull) will be forever remembered more than all of Kobe's. Until Kobe has one of those moments he won't be as remembered as more clutch.

[Brunch@Five]

Keeping this argument relative to the thread title and not a Kobe vs. Michael thread,

The significance of Jordan's game winners > The significance of Kobe's game winners

Game winner aginst the Cavs series winner and his infamous "last shot" (as a Bull) will be forever remembered more than all of Kobe's. Until Kobe has one of those moments he won't be as remembered as more clutch.

How is MJ's game winner against the Cavs more important/significant than Kobe's against the Suns 2 years ago? His game-winner in the finals in '04? Game-tying and game-winning shots against Portland in '01 to secure homecourt advantage throughout the playoffs?


MJ has had more significant shots, but Kobe has had his fair share.

[KINGD]

Not even close. Jordan is the only player in NBA History to average 30 ppg in the season, playoffs and finals.

In fact Jordan is the only player to even average at least 30.0 ppg in the playoffs for his career. No one else can say that neither do anyone have 6 finals mvp's. Seriously how does Kobe even compare?

When Kobe was in the finals this is what he did:

Kobe in the finals

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/zillgitt/2004-06-15-zillgitt_x.htm

In 35 Finals games, Jordan averaged 33.6 points, 6.0 rebounds and 6.0 assists a game.

In 20 Finals games, Bryant has averaged 22.2 points, 5.2 rebounds and 4.9 assists a game.


It's not even close.
Yeah. Having Shaq didn't affect his avg.:rolleyes:

[ikoiko]

How is MJ's game winner against the Cavs more important/significant than Kobe's against the Suns 2 years ago? His game-winner in the finals in '04? Game-tying and game-winning shots against Portland in '01 to secure homecourt advantage throughout the playoffs?


MJ has had more significant shots, but Kobe has had his fair share.

MJ's game winner against the Cavs is more important/significant than

1. Kobes game winner agains the suns because: Lakers lost that series

2. His game winner in the finals because: Lakers lost that series

3. The shots against the Blazers because: That was in the regular season.

[Da_Realist]

fixed.

I've seen flashes of it from Kobe at times. But consistency is obviously the huge difference. And great post BTW :applause: :applause:

:cheers:

[LA.MJ&KB#1]

I say make no judgment until Kobe career is over like 5-6 years from now. However, both player will always be remember as one of the greatest that ever played the game.

[Manute for Ever!]

I say make no judgment until Kobe career is over like 5-6 years from now. However, both player will always be remember as one of the greatest that ever played the game.

One will be remembered as "one of", one will be remembered as "the" greatest that ever played the game.

[R11DMAN]

Kobe lovers, I have one question..how many CHAMPIONSHIP CLINCHING shots and assists does Kobe have?

BTW, I'd take 1 Ring winning shot over a 10 game winning shots anyday.

[icemanfan]

Get over your man-crush Kobe is not MJ's equal.

[Lebron23]

http://www.cavsnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/Michael-Jordan-Motorsports.jpg

"People say I passed the TORCH to Kobe and Lebron"


"I want my GOD DAMN TORCH BACK"

[INDI]

How many times have Michael's teams blown out the competition to the point of no game winner being necessary?

How many times have Kobe's teams blown out the competition to the point of no game winner being necessary?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

i wish someone could check these stats because when this point is trying to be made, people forget that the teams he has played on haven't been chopped liver

only 1 season where he didn't make the playoffs and he missed alot of games that year, and 2 seasons of making the playoffs. So in a nutshell he had a bad season (where they were the ones getting blown out) and 2 seasons of alot of close games.

Also Jordan wasn't winning chips soon as he stepped foot in the league therefore he had many close games as well. I wonder how many game winners kobe hit during the 2 seasons where he played alot of close games, cause if we take these years out then there should be ABSOLUTELY no excuses anymore.

[deion2123]

There was no kept stat before Jordan came allong. but im pretty sure Jordan hit more than bird,west,magic


Kobe Bryant

(1) 05/10/00 - Lakers 97 - Phoenix 96 (playoffs)
(2) 06/14/00 - Lakers 120 - Pacers 118 (playoffs)
(3) 11/16/00 - Lakers 112 - Kings 110
(4) 02/07/01 - Lakers 85 - Phoenix 83
(5) 02/13/01 - Lakers 113 - Nets 110
(6) 01/02/02 - Lakers 87 - Nuggets 86
(7) 02/22/02 - Lakers 96 - Hornets 94
(8) 05/12/02 - Lakers 87 - Spurs 85 (playoffs)
(9) 12/06/02 - Lakers 105 - Dallas 103
(10) 04/04/03 - Lakers 102 - Grizzlies 101
(11) 04/06/03 - Lakers 115 - Suns 113
(12) 12/19/03 - Lakers 101 - Nuggets 99
(13) 02/17/04 - Lakers 89 - Blazers 86
(14) 03/21/04 - Lakers 104 - Bucks 103
(15) 04/14/04 - Lakers 105 - Blazers 104
(16) 03/12/05 - Lakers 117 - Bobcats 116
(17) 11/02/05 - Lakers 99 - Nuggets 97
(18) 01/07/06 - Lakers 112 - Clippers 109
(19) 01/13/06 - Lakers 99 - Cavaliers 98
(20) 04/30/06 - Lakers 99 - Suns 98 (playoffs)
(21) 01/14/08 - Lakers 123 - Seattle 121


Michael Jordan

(1) Nov. 11, 1984 vs. Indiana, 118-116
(2) Dec. 7, 1984 vs. New York, 95-93
(3) April 24, 1985 vs. Milwaukee, 109-107
(4) Nov. 11, 1986 vs. Atlanta, 112-110
(5) Nov. 21, 1986 vs. New York, 101-99
(6) April 15, 1988 vs. New Jersey, 100-99
(7) Feb. 16, 1989 vs. Milwaukee, 117-116
(8) May 7, 1989 vs. Cleveland, 101-100
(9) May 27, 1989 vs. Detroit, 99-97
(10) Nov. 13, 1990 vs. Utah, 84-82
(11) Jan. 22, 1992 vs. Charlotte, 115-112
(12) Nov. 11, 1992 vs. Detroit, 98-96 (OT)
(13) May 17, 1993 vs. Cleveland, 103-101
(14) March 25, 1995 vs. Atlanta, 99-98
(15) Feb. 11, 1997 vs. Charlotte, 103-100
(16) June 1, 1997 vs. Utah, 84-82
(17) February 13, 1998 vs. Atlanta, 112-110
(18) March 22, 1998 vs. Toronto, 102-100
(19) June 14, 1998 vs. Utah, 87-86
(20) December 22, 2001 vs. New York, 87-86
(21) January 31, 2002 vs. Cavaliers, 93-92
(22) February 15, 2002 vs. Suns, 97-96

Jordans Free Throw Winners ( I dont have a coppy of Kobes Free Throw Winners )

March 26, 1985 vs. Indiana, 120-119
Oct. 25, 1985 vs. Cleveland, 116-115
Feb. 12, 1988 vs. Milwaukee, 95-93
April 3, 1988 vs. Detroit, 112-110
May 19, 1989 vs. New York, 113-111
March 18, 1997 vs. Seattle, 89-87 (OT)





Just thought people might be interested in knowing this

lol...Griffmonkey is the biggest Kobe nuttjuggler on the ESPN boards..this guy has an extreme obssession with Kobe

[icemanfan]

How many times have Michael's teams blown out the competition to the point of no game winner being necessary?

How many times have Kobe's teams blown out the competition to the point of no game winner being necessary?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

i wish someone could check these stats because when this point is trying to be made, people forget that the teams he has played on haven't been chopped liver

only 1 season where he didn't make the playoffs and he missed alot of games that year, and 2 seasons of making the playoffs. So in a nutshell he had a bad season (where they were the ones getting blown out) and 2 seasons of alot of close games.



Also Jordan wasn't winning chips soon as he stepped foot in the league therefore he had many close games as well. I wonder how many game winners kobe hit during the 2 seasons where he played alot of close games, cause if we take these years out then there should be ABSOLUTELY no excuses anymore.


WHO CARES KOBE<JORDAN you guys want to compare one idiotic stat of factoid after another and for no other reason than an extreme man-crush on Kobe. Get over it. He isn't the 2nd coming of Mike he is the 1st coming of Kobe. No mrun of stats or any other junk is going to make him better than Mike. Compare MVP's, Rings, Endorsements, game winners, fan whiners, what ever. The only thing Kobe has over Mike so far is score in a game (well done) and amount of nut hugging Man Lovers (poor Kobe). The way the game is played now vs the way it was played then makes it completely different anyway. If they called touch fouls on the perimeter then as they do now Mike would have spent all his time at the free throw line. Two hand check defense. It is all changed. Get over you man-love and just enjoy the game. Quit crying because the rest of the world does not bow at the Kobe alter. Most of us would respect his game a lot more IF his fans were not such one sided jack asses determined to have him declared the GOAT. He isn't, he won't be and he does not deserve to be. Get over it.

[Da_Realist]

WHO CARES KOBE<JORDAN you guys want to compare one idiotic stat of factoid after another and for no other reason than an extreme man-crush on Kobe. Get over it. He isn't the 2nd coming of Mike he is the 1st coming of Kobe. No mrun of stats or any other junk is going to make him better than Mike. Compare MVP's, Rings, Endorsements, game winners, fan whiners, what ever. The only thing Kobe has over Mike so far is score in a game (well done) and amount of nut hugging Man Lovers (poor Kobe). The way the game is played now vs the way it was played then makes it completely different anyway. If they called touch fouls on the perimeter then as they do now Mike would have spent all his time at the free throw line. Two hand check defense. It is all changed. Get over you man-love and just enjoy the game. Quit crying because the rest of the world does not bow at the Kobe alter. Most of us would respect his game a lot more IF his fans were not such one sided jack asses determined to have him declared the GOAT. He isn't, he won't be and he does not deserve to be. Get over it.

/thread :applause:

[Pujolsmj23]

Kobes shot in the Finals dont mean a thing cause he played HORRIBLE and they lost...Kobes shot against the Suns dont matter cause in game 6 he airballed the series winning shot and disappeared in game 7,they lost that series 2.MJs shot against Cleveland won the series.In 92 he hits shot that sends them 2 nba finals.2 gamewinners in 97 Finals and 98 has the championship winning shot.All MJS and thats just a few...Won the series and they won the championship or at least that particular series.Kobe plays terrible and loses his series!!!!!!!!!BIG DIFFERENCE!!!!!!!!!!!Ohhh in 93 he knocked cleveland out of the playoffs..91 his gametying shot in Finals THEY WON...Need i go on.Championship assist in 97 also...HEHEHE

[Pujolsmj23]

Kobes stats in all the FINALS R pretty pathetic especially their first title...Let alone the choke job in 04..MJ's worst in 96 r better than Kobes best...Look up all MJS FINALS and youll see theres NO comparison MJ kills him in clutch moments,FG%,PTS,records,FinalsMVPS,EVERYTHING Any year........91,92,93,96,97,98

[gts]

i went shark fishing once, caught a 8 foot bonita shark (good eating) beat that thing with a baseball bat, brought it on board and the damn thing wasn't dead... beat that thing like crazy, but like this thread it just wouldn't die...

[32jazz]

[QUOTE=icemanfan]WHO CARES KOBE<JORDAN you guys want to compare one idiotic stat of factoid after another and for no other reason than an extreme man-crush on Kobe. Get over it. He isn't the 2nd coming of Mike he is the 1st coming of Kobe. No mrun of stats or any other junk is going to make him better than Mike. Compare MVP's, Rings, Endorsements, game winners, fan whiners, what ever. The only thing Kobe has over Mike so far is score in a game (well done) and amount of nut hugging Man Lovers (poor Kobe). The way the game is played now vs the way it was played then makes it completely different anyway. If they called touch fouls on the perimeter then as they do now Mike would have spent all his time at the free throw line. Two hand check defense. It is all changed. Get over you man-love and just enjoy the game. Quit crying because the rest of the world does not bow at the Kobe alter. Most of us would respect his game a lot more IF his fans were not such one sided jack asses determined to have him declared the GOAT. He isn't, he won't be and he does not deserve to be. Get over it.[/QUOTE}

From a guy who isn't really into either one it seems like the Jordan jockers are the one who have this incessant man crush(he retired in 98). Seems like Kobe fans delight in poking fun at the Jordan Jockers.
Give me the Dip ,Big O, Magic or Bird over either one to build a team. :confusedshrug:

[Da_Realist]

It seems like a lot of Kobe fans think chasing numbers is the best way for him to be regarded as the GOAT. It's more than just stats that separate Kobe and MJ.

Stats will just bring Kobe to the table, it doesn't mean he'll get to eat.

I'll give just one reason I feel like there's a larger gap than just pure numbers. I never saw MJ quit. Even when he was beaten on a play, he didn't quit.

Here's something (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkRzE8oroMs) that illustrates what I'm talking about.

In the first play, John Stockton stole the ball from MJ on his way to a layup late in game 4 of the 97 Finals. You can see how MJ stalked him all the way up the court, jumped, and pinned the ball on the glass. The refs made a tough call (No way was that a foul) but that's beside the point. Most stars would have conceded this basket.

The second play occurs in Game 7 1992 ECF against New York. MJ scores a basket, steals the inbounds pass, gets the ball stripped by John Starks who passes to Xavier McDaniel for what seemed to be an uncontested layup. MJ chases him down and strips him as the X-man was stretching for a dunk. Again, most players would have conceded this basket.

The point is...what seperated MJ from others was not just his averages or the way he scored. It was a relentless desire to win no matter what it took. He never quit even when he was beaten. That's not something you can measure by a stat sheet.

So, unless Kobe or Lebron shows this sort of desire on BOTH ends of the court I will not consider either one better than MJ no matter what the stats say.

Has there ever been anyone as great as Marv Albert? :bowdown: I miss Marv and I miss the NBA on NBC.

[Loki]

Good shlt Loki.. but still you named maybe 4-6 gamewinners.. so Kobe is still less then a dime away from the GREATEST OF ALL TIME. And Kobe still got a good 5 years left of 25+ppg.. so its very possible he ties or breaks Jordans record.

Would that make him > Jordan? of course not.. but it brings him even closer to the GOAT (how is it even possible he gets closer? theyre mirror images of eachother)

Perhaps you missed my other point, which was that the criteria used to count "game winners" for each player IS NOT CONSISTENT. So on top of several Jordan ACTUAL GW's that I know about (under the "Jordan criteria"), we also would have OTHER undocumented GW's from MJ (under the "Jordan criteria") as well as shots that would have counted as GW's under the "Kobe criteria" but weren't. All together, they probably add up to a heck of a lot more than 6 shots if you're comparing apples to apples.

[icemanfan]

[QUOTE=icemanfan]WHO CARES KOBE<JORDAN you guys want to compare one idiotic stat of factoid after another and for no other reason than an extreme man-crush on Kobe. Get over it. He isn't the 2nd coming of Mike he is the 1st coming of Kobe. No mrun of stats or any other junk is going to make him better than Mike. Compare MVP's, Rings, Endorsements, game winners, fan whiners, what ever. The only thing Kobe has over Mike so far is score in a game (well done) and amount of nut hugging Man Lovers (poor Kobe). The way the game is played now vs the way it was played then makes it completely different anyway. If they called touch fouls on the perimeter then as they do now Mike would have spent all his time at the free throw line. Two hand check defense. It is all changed. Get over you man-love and just enjoy the game. Quit crying because the rest of the world does not bow at the Kobe alter. Most of us would respect his game a lot more IF his fans were not such one sided jack asses determined to have him declared the GOAT. He isn't, he won't be and he does not deserve to be. Get over it.[/QUOTE}

From a guy who isn't really into either one it seems like the Jordan jockers are the one who have this incessant man crush(he retired in 98). Seems like Kobe fans delight in poking fun at the Jordan Jockers.
Give me the Dip ,Big O, Magic or Bird over either one to build a team. :confusedshrug:
I am not one side or the other. I am a Spurs fan. I watched both play. To me 98 was just a short while back. As for starting a team only Magic in his prime would be a contender vs Mike in his prime. Magic could play all five possitions and proved it at the pro level. That is one hell of a feat IMO and one that I doubt anyone else could equal. That was not that long ago to me either. Oh well, I am old.

[32jazz]

[QUOTE=32jazz]
I am not one side or the other. I am a Spurs fan. I watched both play. To me 98 was just a short while back. As for starting a team only Magic in his prime would be a contender vs Mike in his prime. Magic could play all five possitions and proved it at the pro level. That is one hell of a feat IMO and one that I doubt anyone else could equal. That was not that long ago to me either. Oh well, I am old.

I would also pick Magic (by my criteria). I have followed the careers of arguable GOATS & their impact on their teams is noticeably greater than a MJ or Kobe.
SG's do not have the same impact as a great frontcourt player or Elite point guard. Check out how Russells',Magic's,Chamberlain,Bird,Big O,..(among a few others) and their teams nearly collapse without them.

I will start a thread on it when I have time.

[Da_Realist]

I would also pick Magic (by my criteria). I have followed the careers of arguable GOATS & their impact on their teams is noticeably greater than a MJ or Kobe.
SG's do not have the same impact as a great frontcourt player or Elite point guard. Check out how Russells',Magic's,Chamberlain,Bird,Big O,..(among a few others) and their teams nearly collapse without them.

I will start a thread on it when I have time.

It can go both ways.

Magic lost to Houston 4 straight times in 86. With Kareem. And Big Game James. And he was swept by the 76'ers in 83. No shame in losing to a great team, but he was SWEPT. As defending champs.

Bird was swept by the Bucks in 83. Bird also struggled against Michael Cooper (1985) and Dennis Rodman (87, 88).

I didn't see Chamberlain but I read about how he seemed to have trouble in game 7's (WILT-ed under pressure?)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain)

[joshwake]

Agree. And one more thing: How many game winning assists Jordan had in playoffs alone? Like NBA final winning assists to Paxon and Kerr etc.

How many game winning assists Kobe ever had in his career?

haha.. so true. a very valid point.

I'm no kobe hater, but he is no MJ.

[32jazz]

[QUOTE=32jazz]

It can go both ways.

Magic lost to Houston 4 straight times in 86. With Kareem. And Big Game James. And he was swept by the 76'ers in 83. No shame in losing to a great team, but he was SWEPT. As defending champs.

Bird was swept by the Bucks in 83. Bird also struggled against Michael Cooper (1985) and Dennis Rodman (87, 88).

I didn't see Chamberlain but I read about how he seemed to have trouble in game 7's (WILT-ed under pressure?)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain)

Magic(my GOAT) & Worthy both choked away the 84 finals to the Celtics:banghead: I don't follow what you are saying? No NBA players are super human. I simply said who I felt was the best. I can go back & forth all day with anecdotes of each players failures right?:confusedshrug:

People whined because Pippen could not play(migraine) & the Bulls lost in game 7 against Pistons in 90? If he wasn't that important to MJ/Bulls success why couldn't they seal the deal without Pippen?
Lakers lost Kareem for game 6 in 80 finals & Magic started center(matched up with Dawkins & scored 42pts, 15 rebs., & 6 ast.
Magic sealed the deal why couldn't MJ?
Anecdotal evidence is silly & gets you nowhere. One should compare overall impact. Magic,Big O,Russell,Bird & others are more impactful.

By the way, Kareem should have retired after 85 & was in all reality a role player in the repeat seasons(sharing time with Mychal Thompson & averagig about 12 & 5.

[Da_Realist]

Magic(my GOAT) & Worthy both choked away the 84 finals to the Celtics:banghead: I don't follow what you are saying? No NBA players are super human. I simply said who I felt was the best. I can go back & forth all day with anecdotes of each players failures right?:confusedshrug:




I would also pick Magic (by my criteria). I have followed the careers of arguable GOATS & their impact on their teams is noticeably greater than a MJ or Kobe.
SG's do not have the same impact as a great frontcourt player or Elite point guard. Check out how Russells',Magic's,Chamberlain,Bird,Big O,..(among a few others) and their teams nearly collapse without them.

Although you believe that these players were so great that their teams would have collapsed without them, I tried to point out that sometimes their teams collapsed WITH them.

[32jazz]

[QUOTE=32jazz]



Although you believe that these players were so great that their teams would have collapsed without them, I tried to point out that sometimes their teams collapsed WITH them.
What about the Bulls without Pippen in 90 ECF's? And I'm going to prove to you in a minute how they DID collapse without them.And I'm not talking any particular game or series.

[Da_Realist]

People whined because Pippen could not play(migraine) & the Bulls lost in game 7 against Pistons in 90? If he wasn't that important to MJ/Bulls success why couldn't they seal the deal without Pippen?


Umm...NOBODY beat the 90 Pistons. Not MJ...OR MAGIC OR BIRD! Magic and the Lakers lost to the Phoenix Suns as the number one seed 4 games to 1. Boston lost to the Knicks in the first round.

Besides, if MJ got the same amount of production as Magic got from Wilkes and Nixon against the Sixers, the Bulls would have won.

But I really wasn't trying to flame against two of my favorite players (Magic and Bird), I was just trying to make a point about their impact. They had a huge impact, but noticeably better than MJ? :no:

[Da_Realist]

And I'm going to prove to you in a minute how they DID collapse without them.And I'm not talking any particular game or series.

I don't doubt you. But I can also prove how their teams collapsed WITH them.

[Da_Realist]

Lakers lost Kareem for game 6 in 80 finals & Magic started center(matched up with Dawkins & scored 42pts, 15 rebs., & 6 ast.
Magic sealed the deal why couldn't MJ?
Anecdotal evidence is silly & gets you nowhere. One should compare overall impact. Magic,Big O,Russell,Bird & others are more impactful.


By the way, Magic still played with Jamaal Wilkes, Michael Cooper and Norm Nixon that game. He played GREAT, but so did everyone else. Got the game on dvd and just watched it a few months ago.

Also, Magic wasn't matched up with Dawkins. Dr. J defended him most of that game. Well, tried to.

And Magic jumped on the tip ball, he did not play center. That's media propaganda.

[TmacsRockets]

What about the Bulls without Pippen in 90 ECF's? And I'm going to prove to you in a minute how they DID collapse without them.And I'm not talking any particular game or series.


Pippen did play

http://motorcitybadboys.com/box90eastconffinalsgm7.html

He was 1-10 and Grant was 3-16. Jordan had 31/9/8

[Pujolsmj23]

When u can hit a shot 2 go to the NBA FINALS in 1992 and its never shown or remembered u have a ton of major clutch shots on the biggest stage...

[20 Dimes A Game]

When u can hit a shot 2 go to the NBA FINALS in 1992 and its never shown or remembered u have a ton of major clutch shots on the biggest stage...

Fair point.

[Manute for Ever!]

When u can hit a shot 2 go to the NBA FINALS in 1992 and its never shown or remembered u have a ton of major clutch shots on the biggest stage...

Exactly :cheers:

You know you're good when they can make a Top 10 of your clutch shots and here it is...

MJ's Top 10 clutch shots:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAVACWw0PIk

[Pujolsmj23]

Whats funny on the cavs shot in 89 is that he hit what looked 2 be the gamewinner with 6 seconds left.Then Ehlo made that quick cut to the basket 4 the layup.And MJ hit the shot.OUCH!!!!2 clutch shots in a row...I got the whole game on dvd

[Manute for Ever!]

Whats funny on the cavs shot in 89 is that he hit what looked 2 be the gamewinner with 6 seconds left.Then Ehlo made that quick cut to the basket 4 the layup.And MJ hit the shot.OUCH!!!!2 clutch shots in a row...I got the whole game on dvd

Me too. The highlight that gets shown only tells half the story.:cheers:

[chopchop20]

[QUOTE=mjbulls23]The thing with Kobe's D is that even though he is one of the best when he turns it up, he lets up on his defense when he goes on a high scoring spree. A young MJ didn't let up his D even while scoring 50

Also Kobe is not as consistent, is not as good as MJ in the post, doesn't have his footwork, is not as individually dominant as MJ was in any given game, and hes nowhere near the playoff performer that Jordan was, especially in the clutch..




:oldlol:

MJ, Magic, Bird, Barkley, etc, played in an era where you actually were allowed to play defense. And Jordan played when despite getting favored by the refs he couldn't get the calls Wade, AI, Bron, and Kobe do. The rules have changed in their favors. The NBA today allows a zone but teams don't really use it well and teams in the 80s used it too they just got away with it(unless they were playing Pat Riley who loved to point it out to refs when his own team wasn't using one).

You cant even handcheck a guy anymore. Much less all the **** Rodman, Moncrief, Jones, Gerald Wilkins, Starks, Dumars, nance, DJ, and such did to MJ. And the athletic difference between the best modern outside defenders and MJs isnt big. The best man to man defender now is probably Bruce Bowen who is hardly an athletic freak. Hes just determined, with good fundamentals, and allowed to play alllllllmost like 90s defenders could. So there is prince. There was Bobby Jones, Gerald Wilklins, Spider Smith(with his 7'6'' wingspan) and Larry Nance who guarded everyone from 2-5. Nance athletically may have no current better of his build. Closest would be Josh Smith. Nance wasl ike 6'10'' both fast and quick(difference) with hops like few ive ever seen.

There are tough bigmen like Ben Wallace now. No current center is either as athletic or skilled on D as Hakeem and Drob were. Or Ewing for that matter if you use pre injury Ewing. Which bigmen now are better disrupting an offense than Zo was? Or Mutombo?

How many pointguards now are better defenders than Gary Payton was? Or Alvin Robertson? Or Derek Harper? How many swingmen are better defenders than Pippen, Jordan, Rodman(who was a swingman type early and the best 3/4 defender later), Cooper Moncrief, and so on? How many 4s are better defenders than Oakley, Williams, and Mccray? I can think of 2. And Jordan played both.

Is this all D team:

Ben
Bowen
AK
Artest
Kidd
Kobe(they had 6 last year with a tie)

really better than this one from 10 years ago?

Payton
Jordan
Pippen
Rodman
Drob



[SIZE="1"]

[Manute for Ever!]

The Zone defense has had an impact on the scoring. If they had true zones in the 80's and 90's, I think the averages would be less.

You could make the same argument for now with hand-checking :confusedshrug:

[~LA's fine$t~]

You could make the same argument for now with hand-checking

:oldlol: At people who actually believe a guy like Kobe would be affected more by the hand checking rule then zone defense.

Even the epic shot Jordan made over Utah, sums up zone defense...I mean since when is the last time Kobe took a last second shot with just ONE defender covering him? Think about that for a second.

Kobe would trade in the zone defense for hand checking any day, because it would make his job easier. I hope everyone understand that, because when people bring the hand checking rule...it's like they're trying to tell me that it's just as big of an obstacle for a scorer in this league as zone defense. :rolleyes:

Completely false, and totally laughable. Kobe is way to skilled for that rule to affect his game, he'd be better off if zone defense was never implemented and the hand checking rule was kept in place.

[Manute for Ever!]

:oldlol: At people who actually believe a guy like Kobe would be affected more by the hand checking rule then zone defense.

Even the epic shot Jordan made over Utah, sums up zone defense...I mean since when is the last time Kobe took a last second shot with just ONE defender covering him? Think about that for a second.

Kobe would trade in the zone defense for hand checking any day, because it would make his job easier. I hope everyone understand that, because when people bring the hand checking rule...it's like they're trying to tell me that it's just as big of an obstacle for a scorer in this league as zone defense. :rolleyes:

Completely false, and totally laughable. Kobe is way to skilled for that rule to affect his game, he'd be better off if zone defense was never implemented and the hand checking rule was kept in place.

Did you actually watch the NBA when there was hand-checking? Just curious.

[~LA's fine$t~]

No I just like to hear myself talk, make an emphasis as to why you think hand-checking rule was as big of an obstacle as zone defense for a scorer...I need a good laugh.

[Manute for Ever!]

No I just like to hear myself talk, make an emphasis as to why you think hand-checking rule was as big of an obstacle as zone defense for a scorer...I need a good laugh.

Huh?!? :confusedshrug:

[Loki]

:oldlol: At people who actually believe a guy like Kobe would be affected more by the hand checking rule then zone defense.

Even the epic shot Jordan made over Utah, sums up zone defense...I mean since when is the last time Kobe took a last second shot with just ONE defender covering him? Think about that for a second.

Kobe would trade in the zone defense for hand checking any day, because it would make his job easier. I hope everyone understand that, because when people bring the hand checking rule...it's like they're trying to tell me that it's just as big of an obstacle for a scorer in this league as zone defense. :rolleyes:

Completely false, and totally laughable. Kobe is way to skilled for that rule to affect his game, he'd be better off if zone defense was never implemented and the hand checking rule was kept in place.

You act like Kobe was some world-beater under man to man rules. We already have evidence of how Kobe fares under handchecking without zone defense: it's called his entire career from 1997-2004. Feel free to look up how he fared for yourself.

I also find it laughable to assert that zone has had more of an impact than the decreased physicality of the game when more players than ever (always perimeter players, mind you, not coincidentally) have had high scoring/legendary seasons the past few years than ever before. Please. Don't insult our intelligence.

[Manute for Ever!]

You act like Kobe was some world-beater under man to man rules. We already have evidence of how Kobe fares under handchecking without zone defense: it's called his entire career from 1997-2004. Feel free to look up how he fared for yourself.

I also find it laughable to assert that zone has had more of an impact than the decreased physicality of the game when more players than ever (always perimeter players, mind you, not coincidentally) have had high scoring/legendary seasons the past few years than ever before. Please. Don't insult our intelligence.

:cheers: Pretty much what I was trying to say, I was just being more polite about it:)

[~LA's fine$t~]

You act like Kobe was some world-beater under man to man rules. We already have evidence of how Kobe fares under handchecking without zone defense: it's called his entire career from 1997-2004. Feel free to look up how he fared for yourself.

Do you know when zone defense was implemented by the way? Certainly a lot earlier then 2004. I believe in 2000? If I'm not correct, please correct me. You have evidence that a 20 year old Kobe (who turned 21 in 2000 I believe) didn't have much success under man to man rules? Well awesome, I'm sure that establishes your position on this subject.


I also find it laughable to assert that zone has had more of an impact than the decreased physicality of the game when more players than ever

Of course you would because your objective is to signify how much tougher it was for a guy like Jordan, even though team efficiency and scoring generally was higher across the board in the era when Jordan played. Your entire agenda is solemnly evident.



Don't insult our intelligence.

I wouldn't take that label from you.

[~LA's fine$t~]

Pretty much what I was trying to say, I was just being more polite about it

So, you attempted to say some bias bull**** that is completely untrue?
Gotcha.

[Manute for Ever!]

So, you attempted to say some bias bull**** that is completely untrue?
Gotcha.

The higher scores wouldn't have anything to do with players being more skillful overall, rather than relying on athletcism, would it? And, you still haven't answered my question, did you actually see ball when there was hand-checking?

[XxNeXuSxX]

So, you attempted to say some bias bull**** that is completely untrue?
Gotcha.
It's not untrue at all. All you have to do is look at FTA for these star players. Huge discrepancy...

[~LA's fine$t~]

I just can't see a creative scorer like Kobe being phased by hand-checking more so then he would be constant triple teams and traps. I just don't...I think he'd be more successful if the rules were kept in check from the 90's.


The higher scores wouldn't have anything to do with players being more skillful overall, rather than relying on athletcism, would it? And, you still haven't answered my question, did you actually see ball when there was hand-checking?

Yes I was a basketball fan since the late 80's.

[Manute for Ever!]

Yes I was a basketball fan since the late 80's.

Cool, like I said, I was just curious. Having seen the game evolve since then (which still had doubles and traps, mind you), I just can't fathom how you see that style of ball easier when you can't shake your man as easily, due to him being able to feel where you are going, rather than the defender going by instincts/what he sees, as is the case now.

[~LA's fine$t~]

The higher scores wouldn't have anything to do with players being more skillful overall, rather than relying on athletcism, would it?

There were a lot more defensive anchors back in the day, like Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing etc. Yet the scoring efficiency was still greater during that era, that's because zone defense wasn't implemented back in the day so those players generally had to play man to man defense, which is tougher then when you can;t call for consistent double/triple teams.

Practically every single pre game strategy today when facing the Lakers, is "use zone defense to guard Kobe"...zone defense does make it tougher for scorers to score, which is the #1 reason they implemented it in the first place. Their objective might have been to reshape the NBA and motivate players to get back to fundamental basketball, but that doesn't mean it's not a major constraint against scorers.

[~LA's fine$t~]

I just can't fathom how you see that style of ball easier when you can't shake your man as easily, due to him being able to feel where you are going, rather than the defender going by instincts/what he sees, as is the case now.

Maybe in general certain players would agree with what you're saying, but I don't believe a guy like Kobe who is such a versatile scorer...would be willing to off-set hand-checking with zone defense.

That might be just me, maybe Kobe might totally disagree with me.
But I'm sticking with my prediction, because as a fan...I do believe Kobe will strive as a scorer more so if zone defense wasn't implemented and they kept the rules as is.

[Manute for Ever!]

Maybe in general certain players would agree with what you're saying, but I don't believe a guy like Kobe who is such a versatile scorer...would be willing to off-set hand-checking with zone defense.

That might be just me, maybe Kobe might totally disagree with me.
But I'm sticking with my prediction, because as a fan...I do believe Kobe will strive as a scorer more so if zone defense wasn't implemented and they kept the rules as is.

Fair enough, we all have our opinions :cheers:

[Da_Realist]

Maybe in general certain players would agree with what you're saying, but I don't believe a guy like Kobe who is such a versatile scorer...would be willing to off-set hand-checking with zone defense.

That might be just me, maybe Kobe might totally disagree with me.
But I'm sticking with my prediction, because as a fan...I do believe Kobe will strive as a scorer more so if zone defense wasn't implemented and they kept the rules as is.

I'm not sure. I've never seen Kobe deal with any real physicality. I know you want to believe he would have annihilated the competition but Kobe seems to be more of a whiner even after little touch ticky-tack fouls.

[iggy>]

:roll: /10 fold

you could have atleast said someone whos arguably top 5

like paul, garnett, duncan or something..
d wade is top 5 when heatlthy, prolly top 3, arguably the best. he basically won a championship by himself.

[2LeTTeRS]

There were a lot more defensive anchors back in the day, like Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing etc. Yet the scoring efficiency was still greater during that era, that's because zone defense wasn't implemented back in the day so those players generally had to play man to man defense, which is tougher then when you can;t call for consistent double/triple teams.

Practically every single pre game strategy today when facing the Lakers, is "use zone defense to guard Kobe"...zone defense does make it tougher for scorers to score, which is the #1 reason they implemented it in the first place. Their objective might have been to reshape the NBA and motivate players to get back to fundamental basketball, but that doesn't mean it's not a major constraint against scorers.

If you think there was no doubling and tripling before zones were legal than I have to question if you really watched the games. First off zone isn't even used 1/2 the time in the current NBA, and secondly the doubles got to the ball handler just as quickly as they do now. Honestly back then with as perplex as the rules were a lot of analysts would say teams were playing a form of a "zone" D then and getting away with it because of how Illegal Defense was called. Seeing now that even with zone being legal teams still can't pack defenders into the paint I can't agree with you that the current zone defense rules are as much of a hamper to scoring as handchecking, since the rules were changed to remove hand checking and implement zone defenses to allow teams to play poor defenders and hide their defensive inability. This has allowed teams to get away with playing their 5 best offensive players more even if they're not as effective on defense, and thats why scoring went up.

[2LeTTeRS]

Maybe in general certain players would agree with what you're saying, but I don't believe a guy like Kobe who is such a versatile scorer...would be willing to off-set hand-checking with zone defense.

That might be just me, maybe Kobe might totally disagree with me.
But I'm sticking with my prediction, because as a fan...I do believe Kobe will strive as a scorer more so if zone defense wasn't implemented and they kept the rules as is.

I doubt Kobe, especially young Kobe that still had an improving jump shot, would want to deal with the constant battles associated with having to fight a defender trying to guide you with his hands anytime he tried to drive to the basket. I'm sorry but theres a reason the rules changed, the defenses in the late 90s were getting so physical and effective that teams were scoring less points than they ever had in league history and after a barrage of 84-81 games, David Stern changed the game to free up offenses. Knowing that I can't see how you can claim that defense is better now than it was back then.

[Loki]

Do you know when zone defense was implemented by the way? Certainly a lot earlier then 2004. I believe in 2000? If I'm not correct, please correct me.

Teams didn't employ the zone until around 2004, and most not until 2005.


You have evidence that a 20 year old Kobe (who turned 21 in 2000 I believe) didn't have much success under man to man rules? Well awesome, I'm sure that establishes your position on this subject.

No, I never said that he didn't have success -- Kobe's been a top 5-6 player since 2001. I just disagree with the notion that he would be some sort of world-beater under man-to-man rules, because you're ignoring the evidence we have from the majority of his career from age 18-25 (not 20 as you said).


Your entire agenda is solemnly evident.

What does "solemnly evident" mean? :confusedshrug:


I'm not sure. I've never seen Kobe deal with any real physicality. I know you want to believe he would have annihilated the competition but Kobe seems to be more of a whiner even after little touch ticky-tack fouls.

I agree.

And again, I don't think Kobe's game would suffer under those rules -- I just don't think, like LA's Finest does, that he would somehow be so much better under those rules when the evidence clearly suggests otherwise. I think he'd be about the same, frankly. I don't, however, believe that he would have averaged 35.4 ppg under 2001 rules. Maybe around 33-34 ppg. But for the most part I feel he'd be about the same.

[mjbulls23]

The Zone defense has had an impact on the scoring. If they had true zones in the 80's and 90's, I think the averages would be less.

We still don't have a true zone today because of the 3 second rule. A true zone is seen in NCAA college ball

[Manute for Ever!]

We still don't have a true zone today because of the 3 second rule. A true zone is seen in NCAA college ball

That is true, in true zone you can camp in the key on D as long as you like.

[MaxFly]

If you think there was no doubling and tripling before zones were legal than I have to question if you really watched the games. First off zone isn't even used 1/2 the time in the current NBA, and secondly the doubles got to the ball handler just as quickly as they do now. Honestly back then with as perplex as the rules were a lot of analysts would say teams were playing a form of a "zone" D then and getting away with it because of how Illegal Defense was called. Seeing now that even with zone being legal teams still can't pack defenders into the paint I can't agree with you that the current zone defense rules are as much of a hamper to scoring as handchecking, since the rules were changed to remove hand checking and implement zone defenses to allow teams to play poor defenders and hide their defensive inability. This has allowed teams to get away with playing their 5 best offensive players more even if they're not as effective on defense, and thats why scoring went up.

I think people point to the zone defense as having a large impact on perimeter players, but really, it's not so much the conventional zone... 2 and 3, box and 1... It's the newfound allowance of players to double or shade a player who doesn't have the ball or to shade a player with the ball and bring the double earlier than conventional man defense.

Imagine that under the old rules, you have Chris Paul on a complete iso with Tony Parker on him and all of Chris's teammates are concentrated on the opposite side of the floor so as to give him room to operate in the iso... The defense only has two options... They can send a hard double across the floor or stay on their men and wait for the drive to intervene. They weren't allowed to meander between the person their supposed to be guarding and the person with the ball. You can do that now, and as a result, doubles can come faster before an offensive player makes his move... You're going from a soft double/shading to a hard double.

The new rules make it so that you don't have to be within arms reach of the player you're guarding or in any defensive zone formation. Basically, as long as you're not in the paint, you don't have to be guarding anyone.

[Da_Realist]

The new rules make it so that you don't have to be within arms reach of the player you're guarding or in any defensive zone formation. Basically, as long as you're not in the paint, you don't have to be guarding anyone.

Exactly. For a person with any sort of quickness off the dribble (like Kobe) all he has to do is get past the initial defense. Because of the defensive 3 second rule, bigs can't camp out in the paint like before. Once he's in the paint (which, by the way, covers a large area of the offensive side of the court relative to the basket) he doesn't have nearly the resistance as under previous rules. Stern changed the rules to INCREASE scoring. He knew these rule changes would make it easier to score, not the opposite.

And let's forget that we just don't see the same kind of bigs today as in years past because most of them play finesse basketball. Instead of a league of physically dominant big men like Moses Malone, Patrick Ewing and Hakeem Olajuwon we have Dirk Nowitski, Kevin Garnett and Chris Bosh.

Also...beyond the rules... is there any doubt that there was a level of physicality to the defenses back then that just isn't there today? That level of physicality wears a player down over time. Not only over the course of a game but also over the course of a season. Stamina, resistance and injuries played a much larger role in a player's productivity over time.

[griffmoney1984]

d wade is top 5 when heatlthy, prolly top 3, arguably the best. he basically won a championship by himself.


everyones already seen what wade can do by himself...

( checks standings... points and laughs )


lmfao@ injured... he got that injury mid way through the 2006-07 season.

stop using it as an excuse.


Wade won a championship averaging 20+ free throw attempts per game.

hes a flopper... he even bragged about it in his commercial


hes in my top 10 when healthy.

but he isnt better than Kobe, Garnett, Paul, Lebron and Duncan

[KINGD]

Kobe is not as clutch as Bird/MJ/or Miller. I would have him at 4.

[MaxFly]

Exactly. For a person with any sort of quickness off the dribble (like Kobe) all he has to do is get past the initial defense. Because of the defensive 3 second rule, bigs can't camp out in the paint like before. Once he's in the paint (which, by the way, covers a large area of the offensive side of the court relative to the basket) he doesn't have nearly the resistance as under previous rules. Stern changed the rules to INCREASE scoring. He knew these rule changes would make it easier to score, not the opposite.

Not really... remember, the initial defense now includes soft doubles and players shading you. Back in the day, if you were quick and skilled enough to catch the ball and make your move immediately, you could get in the paint before a double came. Today, if you're good enough, you'll be shaded so that doubles can come faster, so if you catch the ball and beat your man, there's a decent chance you'll end up seeing another defender before you get into the paint.

[workhorse2]

Chasing 23 says that Kobe Bryant has missed 6/22 game winners in the playoffs. Who knew?
http://chasing23.com/2011/02/the-myth-of-playoff-kobe/

[Calabis]

Chasing 23 says that Kobe Bryant has missed 6/22 game winners in the playoffs. Who knew?
http://chasing23.com/2011/02/the-myth-of-playoff-kobe/

Kobe has the regular season clutch gene:lol

[az00m]

http://kobe-bryant-michael-jordan.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=78&Itemid=96

[quote] Jordan had a 0.48079034 shooting percentage in the finals compared to Kobe

[gengiskhan]

Teams between 1980 and 2000 averaged 2.7 more ppg than teams from 2001 to 2008

Defence is actually better nowadays

so STFU

This is where you start going......

:roll:
:roll:
:roll:

:facepalm

[Psileas]

Michael Jordan made 33 out of 58 game winning shots which is a 56.9% shooting percentage

Who verifies this? Such types of stats before 2004 supposedly don't exist. BTW, is there a list of all these 33 game-winning shots?

[SinJackal]

Has anyone found Jordan's game winner % yet?

[LA_Showtime]

Why are people pretending the '80s and '90s teams were so much better defensively? Perimeter defense wasn't nearly as good as it is today; the idea that hand checking would affect Kobe, LeBron, Wade, etc. is laughable. The only argument you guys have is that perimeter players weren't as apt to go into the lane, as they would routinely get clobbered (which is how it should be).

[Knoe Itawl]

Why are people pretending the '80s and '90s teams were so much better defensively? Perimeter defense wasn't nearly as good as it is today; the idea that hand checking would affect Kobe, LeBron, Wade, etc. is laughable. The only argument you guys have is that perimeter players weren't as apt to go into the lane, as they would routinely get clobbered (which is how it should be).

1. So why do you suppose the NBA chose to loosen it's perimeter defense rules? Do you suppose they did it to make the game TOUGHER for perimeter players, who the league is trying to PROMOTE after the Jordan era?

2. Why did so many players go crazy that year following the rule changes? A past his prime Iverson was getting 33ppg, Arenas, Kobe's 35ppg year, etc. etc. All the same year.

3. Why does it always seem to be Laker/Kobe fans who try to degrade previous eras defensively? Seriously, the majority of the time I see this claim that today is some kind of monster defensive era, it's usually them. Others might say it as well, but 8-9 times out of 10 it's Laker/Kobe guys. Is it part of a large contingent's desire to minimize Jordan's era so that his accomplishments can therefore be dismissed? As in "yeah, Kobe will never match Jordan's accomplishments but it's because it was easier for Jordan then, not that Jordan was significantly superior."

I note that fans of Wade, Lebron, and other perimeter players of today don't make this claim anywhere near as much as Kobe guys. Funny how that works.

[Harion]

another Kobe nut tard making a thread to prop up his failed boyfriend, another day in the life of ISH

[LA_Showtime]

1. So why do you suppose the NBA chose to loosen it's perimeter defense rules? Do you suppose they did it to make the game TOUGHER for perimeter players, who the league is trying to PROMOTE after the Jordan era?

2. Why did so many players go crazy that year following the rule changes? A past his prime Iverson was getting 33ppg, Arenas, Kobe's 35ppg year, etc. etc. All the same year.

3. Why does it always seem to be Laker/Kobe fans who try to degrade previous eras defensively? Seriously, the majority of the time I see this claim that today is some kind of monster defensive era, it's usually them. Others might say it as well, but 8-9 times out of 10 it's Laker/Kobe guys. Is it part of a large contingent's desire to minimize Jordan's era so that his accomplishments can therefore be dismissed? As in "yeah, Kobe will never match Jordan's accomplishments but it's because it was easier for Jordan then, not that Jordan was significantly superior."

I note that fans of Wade, Lebron, and other perimeter players of today don't make this claim anywhere near as much as Kobe guys. Funny how that works.

1. The rules might favor perimeter players, but today's perimeter defense is better, period.

2. It was one year. Obviously the year they instill the rules players will go crazy. It's not like Kobe was driving to the rim a lot anyways. He was taking a lot of low percentage shots.

3. I didn't say the other eras were crap. All I said was today's perimeter defense is better than it was in the '80s and '90s. Did I say Kobe was better than Jordan? No. Maybe you're just a paranoid loser.

[Knoe Itawl]

1. The rules might favor perimeter players, but today's perimeter defense is better, period.

2. It was one year. Obviously the year they instill the rules players will go crazy. It's not like Kobe was driving to the rim a lot anyways. He was taking a lot of low percentage shots.

3. I didn't say the other eras were crap. All I said was today's perimeter defense is better than it was in the '80s and '90s. Did I say Kobe was better than Jordan? No. Maybe you're just a paranoid loser.

1. So no answer for why the NBA would change the rules to make the game easier for perimeter players then. Gotcha.

2. So it was coincidence that the following year so many perimeter players had explosions in ppg. Gotcha.

3. Actually, I didn't name you per se, I used your response to springboard into some general observations I had on the issue. For the record, I don't put you on the level of Kobe Klowns however like many more "reasonable" Kobe fans, you can't help but sympathize with some of their positions. Like the perimeter defense nonsense. The NBA didn't change the rules because it was so EASY to score from the perimeter. They did so because they wanted to promote the flashy swingman type player. Most people acknowledge this (well, you know except for yup Kobe Klowns).

And while you didn't SAY Kobe was better than Jordan, it's a slick tactic that a lot of Kobe Klowns have developed. Don't come out and say Kobe is better than Jordan, but do everything you can to diminish his era, accomplishments, etc. That way they leave it up to the naive and ignorant to draw the conclusion they want, ie "Hmmm, Jordan played in a weaker defensive era soooooooooo that must mean that Kobe would have done just as well then."

[Calabis]

Why are people pretending the '80s and '90s teams were so much better defensively? Perimeter defense wasn't nearly as good as it is today; the idea that hand checking would affect Kobe, LeBron, Wade, etc. is laughable. The only argument you guys have is that perimeter players weren't as apt to go into the lane, as they would routinely get clobbered (which is how it should be).

Joe Johnson disagrees with you

Joe Johnson from the Atlanta Hawks was asked about the handchecking rule during the summer of 2010: "It benefits me," said Joe Johnson, one of three players (Mike Bibby and Jamal Crawford are the others) on the Hawks' roster who have averaged 20 or more points in a season. "It definitely changes the game because it gives every guy that extra step. "If we could hand check now, the game would be totally different," Johnson said. "If they couldn't hand check back in the day, there are some guys that would have been even better than they were. It would have been nuts for some of the big-time scorers and perimeter players from the 1980s and 1990s. Can you imagine what [Michael] Jordan would have done in a league where you couldn't hand check."

and from he hated BruceBlitz:

Well folks, I love busting up myths like a fat kid loves chocolate cake. It's been stated by a few uneducated folks out there that in today's NBA, they run "zones", and these "zones" force perimeter players to take long outside contested shots. So let's put this to the test by looking at the statistical evidence from the 2009-2010 season as a whole....

82% of Tyreke Evans's points came from inside of 15 feet and free throws combined.
75% of Dwyane Wade's points came from inside of 15 feet and free throws combined.
71% of Carmelo Anthony's points came from inside of 15 feet and free throws combined.
70% of Kevin Durant's points came from inside of 15 feet and free throws combined.
68% of LeBron James's points came from inside of 15 feet and free throws combined.
68% of Derrick Rose's points came from inside of 15 feet and free throws combined.
66% of Kobe Bryant's points came from inside of 15 feet and free throws combined.
66% of Monta Ellis's points came from inside of 15 feet and free throws combined.
63% of Brandon Roy's points came from inside of 15 feet and free throws combined.
62% of Dirk Nowitzki's points came from inside of 15 feet and free throws combined.
61% of Stephen Jackson's points came from inside of 15 feet and free throws combined.
61% of Deron Williams's points came from inside of 15 feet and free throws combined.
58% of Joe Johnson's points came from inside of 15 feet and free throws combined.
56% of Danny Granger's points came from inside of 15 feet and free throws combined.

Conclusion.... Not one perimeter superstar scored even half of his points from jumpers that were taken from 15 feet and out. So clearly the myth that zones force long distance jump shots is not true. Furthermore, teams rarely run zones. Teams can't hand check, can't chuck, can't hold away from the ball, can't get away with hard fouls to intimidate perimeter players without being suspended, can't stand in the lane longer than 3 seconds, and can't get credit for a charge inside of the circle. Playing physical defense, as well as playing "goalie" in the lane is discouraged.

Also last but not least Jordan era 6 perimeter DPOY(2 of those individuals won it twice) current era 1 Artest

[jstern]

What's their percentage and are we counting game winning shots with 2 minutes left?

[LA_Showtime]

1. So no answer for why the NBA would change the rules to make the game easier for perimeter players then. Gotcha.

2. So it was coincidence that the following year so many perimeter players had explosions in ppg. Gotcha.

3. Actually, I didn't name you per se, I used your response to springboard into some general observations I had on the issue. For the record, I don't put you on the level of Kobe Klowns however like many more "reasonable" Kobe fans, you can't help but sympathize with some of their positions. Like the perimeter defense nonsense. The NBA didn't change the rules because it was so EASY to score from the perimeter. They did so because they wanted to promote the flashy swingman type player. Most people acknowledge this (well, you know except for yup Kobe Klowns).

And while you didn't SAY Kobe was better than Jordan, it's a slick tactic that a lot of Kobe Klowns have developed. Don't come out and say Kobe is better than Jordan, but do everything you can to diminish his era, accomplishments, etc. That way they leave it up to the naive and ignorant to draw the conclusion they want, ie "Hmmm, Jordan played in a weaker defensive era soooooooooo that must mean that Kobe would have done just as well then."

1) How the hell would I know? I'm not David Stern. I have no idea why they've turned today's game into a free throw contest. It sucks, period. My guess is that they wanted to open up the game as it was becoming unbearable for the average fan to watch in the early 2000's. Your average fan also gravitates towards perimeter players like Kobe, LeBron, etc.

2) No, it wasn't a coincidence. But it's obvious part of the reason scoring was so high among perimeter scorers that year was because referees were adjusting to the new rule changes. It's not like they've kept that up. It was a transition year; clearly there are going to be adjustments and that was it, period.

3) A slight tactic? Really? Maybe you're just paranoid. Even the worst Kobe homers on here rarely say Kobe is better than Jordan. People like you use that excuse to parade your own agenda, which is to downplay anything Kobe does, and to pretend like you're just righting the wrongs of the many Kobe fans who don't know what they're talking about. Do you think of yourself as a vigilante? You sure act like it.

[Knoe Itawl]

Also, I'm pretty sure there are perimeter players who go to the line more times than a prime Jordan. Think about THAT for a second, given what we know about Jordan's driving and foul drawing abilities. Too lazy to look it up but pretty sure Kobe, Bron Wade and Durant have all averaged more fts than Jordan's peak per game in at least a season or more.

Guess Showtime thinks they're all better at drawing fouls than prime Jordan.

[LA_Showtime]

Also, I'm pretty sure there are perimeter players who go to the line more times than a prime Jordan. Think about THAT for a second, given what we know about Jordan's driving and foul drawing abilities. Too lazy to look it up but pretty sure Kobe, Bron Wade and Durant have all averaged more fts than Jordan's peak per game in at least a season or more.

Guess Showtime thinks they're all better at drawing fouls than prime Jordan.

I said the rules favor perimeter players, but that perimeter defense as a whole is better today. Learn to read.

[az00m]

Has anyone found Jordan's game winner % yet?

Michael Jordan made 33 out of 58 game winning shots which is a 56.9% shooting percentage

http://kobe-bryant-michael-jordan.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=78&Itemid=96

[LA_Showtime]

Michael Jordan made 33 out of 58 game winning shots which is a 56.9% shooting percentage

http://kobe-bryant-michael-jordan.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=78&Itemid=96

That is a ridiculously efficient percentage. Dang.

[Knoe Itawl]

1) How the hell would I know? I'm not David Stern. I have no idea why they've turned today's game into a free throw contest. It sucks, period. My guess is that they wanted to open up the game as it was becoming unbearable for the average fan to watch in the early 2000's. Your average fan also gravitates towards perimeter players like Kobe, LeBron, etc.

2) No, it wasn't a coincidence. But it's obvious part of the reason scoring was so high among perimeter scorers that year was because referees were adjusting to the new rule changes. It's not like they've kept that up. It was a transition year; clearly there are going to be adjustments and that was it, period.

3) A slight tactic? Really? Maybe you're just paranoid. Even the worst Kobe homers on here rarely say Kobe is better than Jordan. People like you use that excuse to parade your own agenda, which is to downplay anything Kobe does, and to pretend like you're just righting the wrongs of the many Kobe fans who don't know what they're talking about. Do you think of yourself as a vigilante? You sure act like it.

1. They wanted to promote flashy perimeter players by having them SCORE more since the Jordan era was over and he was the most popular player ever. Are you that dense, or do you just not want to admit it because it goes against your theory?

2. So it wasn't coincidence. Thanks for admitting that, which essentially admits that it was made EASIER to score for perimeter players. Everything else you wrote is irrelevant.

3. I explained why even the worst Kobe homers don't do it. They've developed new tactics, ie diminishing Jordan's accomplishments, saying he played against weak defense, etc. thereby leaving it up to others to draw their own conclusions (ie, Kobe MUST be better! He plays in a more difficult era!!!). It's really quite transparent. You may not be one of them, but you certainly espouse some of their propaganda.

[az00m]

In the 2004 NBA Finals, Shaq averaged 26.6 points per game with a .631 field goal percentage, while Kobe Bryant averaged 22.6 points per game with a .381 field goal percentage. However, the main reason Kobe cost the Lakers the title was that he out shot Shaq by nearly six shots despite Kobe shooting 38.1 percent, while Shaq was shooting 63.1 percent. In that series, Kobe’s failure to play though Shaq hurt not only the team’s stats, but his own stats, as well. Playing through Shaq more would have helped his FGP and open up more easy scoring opportunities. Not to mention: logically, why should a player shooting with a much lower FGP average six more shots than a former three times finals MVP who was shooting a much higher percentage?

this is why people hate on that fianls:(

[catch24]

Michael Jordan made 33 out of 58 game winning shots which is a 56.9% shooting percentage

http://kobe-bryant-michael-jordan.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=78&Itemid=96

Holy crap... :bowdown:

Does that link show ALL of his makes and misses?

[az00m]

Holy crap... :bowdown:

Does that link show ALL of his makes and misses?

nope, just a few from the playoffs and kobes

[LA_Showtime]

1. They wanted to promote flashy perimeter players by having them SCORE more since the Jordan era was over and he was the most popular player ever. Are you that dense, or do you just not want to admit it because it goes against your theory?

2. So it wasn't coincidence. Thanks for admitting that, which essentially admits that it was made EASIER to score for perimeter players. Everything else you wrote is irrelevant.

3. I explained why even the worst Kobe homers don't do it. They've developed new tactics, ie diminishing Jordan's accomplishments, saying he played against weak defense, etc. thereby leaving it up to others to draw their own conclusions (ie, Kobe MUST be better! He plays in a more difficult era!!!). It's really quite transparent. You may not be one of them, but you certainly espouse some of their propaganda.

1) Read my last sentence... That's basically what I'm saying. The average fan gravitates towards a certain type of player, which happens to be high scoring perimeter players.

2) It's not irrelevant. That was one year. OF COURSE stats will be inflated. Everyone's adjusting to the new rules.

3) Or maybe I just believe perimeter defense is better today? That doesn't mean I think Kobe > Jordan. The only people who get it confused are people like you who are constantly looking to argue about Kobe as that's the ONLY reason you post here. I guess I can't say anything about about the Jordan era without Kobe Bryant being involved. And you know whose fault that is? People like you.

[az00m]

[QUOTE]Since 2004, Kobe has shot 0.339869281from the field in win or go home playoff games (8 games). Michael Jordan only had 3 win or go home games in the entire 90

[catch24]

I said the rules favor perimeter players, but that perimeter defense as a whole is better today. Learn to read.

I disagree. Maybe team D has been more sufficient (more so in the early 2000s), but I don't see how the rules today favor perimeter players, yet the defense is better now?

[LA_Showtime]

I disagree. Maybe team D has been more sufficient (more so in the early 2000s), but I don't see how the rules today favor perimeter players, yet the defense is better now?

I just think players are better defensively. Scouting and video has gone up exponentially and teams just know what the other teams going to do.

The way it the rules favor perimeter players are when they call those stupid ticky tack fouls.

[catch24]

nope, just a few from the playoffs and kobes

Ah. It'd be nice to see a comprehensive list of Jordan's makes and misses (for both regular and postseason). I'm not saying he didn't make 56% of his GW's, I'd just like to see the 'proof' for myself.

[LA_Showtime]

Just proves kobe isn't as clutch as people make him out too be. Read the article, really well done.

Actually we already knew that, as those statistics have been posted numerous times. :oldlol:

[Knoe Itawl]

1) Read my last sentence... That's basically what I'm saying. The average fan gravitates towards a certain type of player, which happens to be high scoring perimeter players.

2) It's not irrelevant. That was one year. OF COURSE stats will be inflated. Everyone's adjusting to the new rules.

3) Or maybe I just believe perimeter defense is better today? That doesn't mean I think Kobe > Jordan. The only people who get it confused are people like you who are constantly looking to argue about Kobe as that's the ONLY reason you post here. I guess I can't say anything about about the Jordan era without Kobe Bryant being involved. And you know whose fault that is? People like you.

1. Yes, yes. And so they changed the rules to make it EASIER for them to score. Why would they change the rules to make perimeter scoring easier to score and then magically the OPPOSITE happens as you're suggesting?

LA Showtime - "They changed the rules to make perimeter scoring easier and by doing so they made it harder." :hammerhead:

2. You admitted that it was easier (hence the ppg explosion) That goes against your argument. Yes, they adjusted somewhat but it doesn't mean they adjusted so much that it still isn't EASIER to score from the perimeter than in the 80s and especially 90s. That's just ridiculous.

3. Again, if you espouse the notion that defense is better today (despite the FACT that they changed the rules to do the OPPOSITE of what you're suggesting) what other theory is one to draw?

If Jordan played in a weaker defensive era, he had it EASIER than Kobe, no?

[az00m]

I've posted them many times and some people still haven't seen it:violin:

[catch24]

I just think players are better defensively. Scouting and video has gone up exponentially and teams just know what the other teams going to do.

The way it the rules favor perimeter players are when they call those stupid ticky tack fouls.

I don't know about that; if we're talking about the 80's you definitely have a point (even Bird has gone on record saying defenses weren't as prevalent as they are today, "We just tried to outscore the other team."). In the 90's; however, the pace went down considerably and it's no coincidence some of the greatest defensive teams of all-time came from that decade.

[LA_Showtime]

1. Yes, yes. And so they changed the rules to make it EASIER for them to score. Why would they change the rules to make perimeter scoring easier to score and then magically the OPPOSITE happens as you're suggesting?

LA Showtime - "They changed the rules to make perimeter scoring easier and by doing so they made it harder." :hammerhead:

2. You admitted that it was easier (hence the ppg explosion) That goes against your argument. Yes, they adjusted somewhat but it doesn't mean they adjusted so much that it still isn't EASIER to score from the perimeter than in the 80s and especially 90s. That's just ridiculous.

3. Again, if you espouse the notion that defense is better today (despite the FACT that they changed the rules to do the OPPOSITE of what you're suggesting) what other theory is one to draw?

If Jordan played in a weaker defensive era, he had it EASIER than Kobe, no?

Sigh. There's no point arguing with a brick wall. Last time I'm responding to you. We seem to have these types of arguments every other week.

Defense is better today. Advancements in technology have caused teams to know exactly what other teams are doing. Because of this, the NBA changed the rules and allowed less perimeter contact, which has basically made the entire situation moot.

Yeah, the first season was clearly an aberration. That year scoring was easier. But it hasn't been like that since and you know it.

Again, stop bringing up Jordan. Nobody cares what he's doing. Hell, don't bring up Kobe either. You're basically a narrow minded person who can't think rationally because of your stupidity or anti-social tendencies. Just stop it. Don't assume people are ALWAYS trying to downplay Jordan's tendencies and maybe you wouldn't come off as a bitter Jordan fan who can't let anything go.

[LA_Showtime]

I don't know about that; if we're talking about the 80's you definitely have a point (even Bird has gone on record saying defenses weren't as prevalent as they are today, "We just tried to outscore the other team."). In the 90's; however, the pace went down considerably and it's no coincidence some of the greatest defensive teams of all-time came from that decade.

I just don't think perimeter defense as a whole was as good. It probably evened itself out though since big men could basically punish whoever drove to the rim.

[Knoe Itawl]

Sigh. There's no point arguing with a brick wall. Last time I'm responding to you. We seem to have these types of arguments every other week.

Defense is better today. Advancements in technology have caused teams to know exactly what other teams are doing. Because of this, the NBA changed the rules and allowed less perimeter contact, which has basically made the entire situation moot.

Yeah, the first season was clearly an aberration. That year scoring was easier. But it hasn't been like that since and you know it.

Again, stop bringing up Jordan. Nobody cares what he's doing. Hell, don't bring up Kobe either. You're basically a narrow minded person who can't think rationally because of your stupidity or anti-social tendencies. Just stop it. Don't assume people are ALWAYS trying to downplay Jordan's tendencies and maybe you wouldn't come off as a bitter Jordan fan who can't let anything go.

You would rather cast aspersions at me because you can't sufficiently backup your nonsense claim. All you do is talk around shit which is what people usually do when they're trying to avoid an issue.

:oldlol: at advancements in technology. Yup, in the 90s people were just getting around in the horse and buggy. Thank God Facebook came along or basketball players wouldn't have known how to play d!

As far as Jordan is concerned, I just asked you a simple question. If perimeter defense is so much better now, wouldn't it make sense that Jordan had it "easier" than Kobe? Come on, take your theory to its logical conclusion. Don't ***** out.

Oh and :oldlol: at don't bring up Jordan or Kobe in a thread about Kobe and Jordan.

[heyhey]

I don't know about that; if we're talking about the 80's you definitely have a point (even Bird has gone on record saying defenses weren't as prevalent as they are today, "We just tried to outscore the other team."). In the 90's; however, the pace went down considerably and it's no coincidence some of the greatest defensive teams of all-time came from that decade.

there were the pistons and the bulls but what other all time great defensive teams were there in the 90s?

teams played great defense in the 80s and 90s based almost entirely on personnels. Pippen and MJ, Isiah Dumar etc were great individual defenders.

Defense nowdays have much more complicated and cerebral schemes than there ever was in any point in NBA history.

Due to increased funding, advance statistics, defense is much better equiped at shutting down any player on any given night.

[SinJackal]

Michael Jordan made 33 out of 58 game winning shots which is a 56.9% shooting percentage

http://kobe-bryant-michael-jordan.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=78&Itemid=96

That high? :wtf:

Good find. Had no idea he made over half his attempts. I figured it was around 40-45% or something. Very impressive.

[Knoe Itawl]

there were the pistons and the bulls but what other all time great defensive teams were there in the 90s?

teams played great defense in the 80s and 90s based almost entirely on personnels. Pippen and MJ, Isiah Dumar etc were great individual defenders.

Defense nowdays have much more complicated and cerebral schemes than there ever was in any point in NBA history.

Due to increased funding, advance statistics, defense is much better equiped at shutting down any player on any given night.

Right, guess you never heard of those Knicks teams. Or Miami teams coached by Riley, as well as teams that had better defensive big man personnel (Rockets, Spurs, etc.) than teams do now.

And once again :oldlol: at this idea that there is some hyper advanced technology today over what was available then and that that has anything to do with anything.

The defensive big men of this era are a joke compared to Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Mutumbo, Mourning, etc. AND they changed the rules to benefit perimeter players. Yet I'm supposed to believe that this is some kind of monster defensive era?

What team are you a fan of, out of curiousity?

[LA_Showtime]

You would rather cast aspersions at me because you can't sufficiently backup your nonsense claim. All you do is talk around shit which is what people usually do when they're trying to avoid an issue.

:oldlol: at advancements in technology. Yup, in the 90s people were just getting around in the horse and buggy. Thank God Facebook came along or basketball players wouldn't have known how to play d!

As far as Jordan is concerned, I just asked you a simple question. If perimeter defense is so much better now, wouldn't it make sense that Jordan had it "easier" than Kobe? Come on, take your theory to its logical conclusion. Don't ***** out.

Oh and :oldlol: at don't bring up Jordan or Kobe in a thread about Kobe and Jordan.

That's all you do too.

Okay, advancements in technology was too much. Scouting is better. Preparation is better. Video is better. Period.

You're the one who said it was easier. I never did. I also said players who played in Jordan's era were more likely to be flattened when it taking it to the whole. Of course you just discount that. Whatever.

We're talking about defense, not game winning shots. And I figured the title had "Kobe" in it, otherwise you wouldn't be here would you?

[comerb]

the second best player in the nba according to Lebron fans

:roll:

3rd actually

[LA_Showtime]

Right, guess you never heard of those Knicks teams. Or Miami teams coached by Riley.

And once again :oldlol: at this idea that there is some hyper advanced technology today over what was available then and that that has anything to do with anything.

The defensive big men of this era are a joke compared to Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Mutumbo, Mourning, etc. AND they changed the rules to benefit perimeter players. Yet I'm supposed to believe that this is some kind of monster defensive era?

What team are you a fan of, out of curiousity?

What team are you a fan of...? I'm guessing none.

[heyhey]

Right, guess you never heard of those Knicks teams. Or Miami teams coached by Riley.

And once again :oldlol: at this idea that there is some hyper advanced technology today over what was available then and that that has anything to do with anything.

The defensive big men of this era are a joke compared to Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Mutumbo, Mourning, etc. AND they changed the rules to benefit perimeter players. Yet I'm supposed to believe that this is some kind of monster defensive era?

What team are you a fan of, out of curiousity?

I'm a Knicks fan and a Lakers fan.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/magazine/15Battier-t.html

read that article and come back to talk to me about how defense is not better equipped today.

[QUOTE]People often say that Kobe Bryant has no weaknesses to his game, but that’s not really true. Before the game, Battier was given his special package of information. “He’s the only player we give it to,” Morey says. “We can give him this fire hose of data and let him sift. Most players are like golfers. You don’t want them swinging while they’re thinking.” The data essentially broke down the floor into many discrete zones and calculated the odds of Bryant making shots from different places on the court, under different degrees of defensive pressure, in different relationships to other players — how well he scored off screens, off pick-and-rolls, off catch-and-shoots and so on. Battier learns a lot from studying the data on the superstars he is usually assigned to guard. For instance, the numbers show him that Allen Iverson is one of the most efficient scorers in the N.B.A. when he goes to his right; when he goes to his left he kills his team. The Golden State Warriors forward Stephen Jackson is an even stranger case. “Steve Jackson,” Battier says, “is statistically better going to his right, but he loves to go to his left — and goes to his left almost twice as often.” The San Antonio Spurs’ Manu Gin

[LA_Showtime]

I'm a Knicks fan and a Lakers fan.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/magazine/15Battier-t.html

read that article and come back to talk to me about how defense is not better equipped today.

Don't bother. The NBA is clearly a watered down product that caters to perimeter players who would fail to make the league in the glory days of the '90s.

[catch24]

there were the pistons and the bulls but what other all time great defensive teams were there in the 90s?

The Pistons weren't that great in the 90's (other than the first couple of years to start the decade). You're thinking of the 80's Pistons. Well, Chicago was GREAT for near an entire decade. NY, the Pacers, Miami, and Rockets were all GREAT. Those Heat and Knicks series were probably the most physical and grind-it-out defensive battles in history.


teams played great defense in the 80s and 90s based almost entirely on personnels.

Teams didn't really play all that "great" defensively in the 80's. There were a few exceptions, but as you said, a lot of the teams were often based on individual personnel.


Defense nowdays have much more complicated and cerebral schemes than there ever was in any point in NBA history.

Yeah, some of the teams might be more sophisticated and have "complicated defenses", but as the 00's have come to an end, defense (specifically FG% and PPG) have been worse each year. The early 2000's (01-05) was defense -- at an all-time level -- played at its absolute peak with the mid/late 90's following if not being equivalent based on pace and PPG/FG%.

[Knoe Itawl]

That's all you do too.

Okay, advancements in technology was too much. Scouting is better. Preparation is better. Video is better. Period.

You're the one who said it was easier. I never did. I also said players who played in Jordan's era were more likely to be flattened when it taking it to the whole. Of course you just discount that. Whatever.

We're talking about defense, not game winning shots. And I figured the title had "Kobe" in it, otherwise you wouldn't be here would you?

WTF are you talking about "scouting is better, preparation is better, video is better" They had scouts, video and prepared then too. This was about 10-20 years ago not 50. You're just talking out of your ass now.

I asked you to take your statement to its logical conclusion. Jordan was a perimeter player. If perimeter defense is BETTER now (despite the fact that they changed the rules to make it easier for perimeter players to score, a fact you STILL haven't adequately addressed), then that would mean it's HARDER for perimeter players to score today, thus EASIER for Jordan to score then. Thus, it was EASIER for Jordan. Why do you want to come all the way up to the edge and not go over?

I'll ask you again. Simple question. Based on your theory that perimeter defense is harder today, wouldn't that mean Jordan had it easier?

[Knoe Itawl]

I'm a Knicks fan and a Lakers fan.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/magazine/15Battier-t.html

read that article and come back to talk to me about how defense is not better equipped today.

Nuff said.

[LA_Showtime]

WTF are you talking about "scouting is better, preparation is better, video is better" They had scouts, video and prepared then too. This was about 10-20 years ago not 50. You're just talking out of your ass now.

I asked you to take your statement to its logical conclusion. Jordan was a perimeter player. If perimeter defense is BETTER now (despite the fact that they changed the rules to make it easier for perimeter players to score, a fact you STILL haven't adequately addressed), then that would mean it's HARDER for perimeter players to score today, thus EASIER for Jordan to score then. Thus, it was EASIER for Jordan. Why do you want to come all the way up to the edge and not go over?

I'll ask you again. Simple question. Based on your theory that perimeter defense is harder today, wouldn't that mean Jordan had it easier?

Because that wasn't the point of my argument, but is clearly the only reason you confronted me in the first place. I don't go into threads and look to tear down individual players. SMH.

[branslowski]

99-03' Greatest defensive Era...Zone/Man, physical.

[LA_Showtime]

WTF are you talking about "scouting is better, preparation is better, video is better" They had scouts, video and prepared then too. This was about 10-20 years ago not 50. You're just talking out of your ass now.

I asked you to take your statement to its logical conclusion. Jordan was a perimeter player. If perimeter defense is BETTER now (despite the fact that they changed the rules to make it easier for perimeter players to score, a fact you STILL haven't adequately addressed), then that would mean it's HARDER for perimeter players to score today, thus EASIER for Jordan to score then. Thus, it was EASIER for Jordan. Why do you want to come all the way up to the edge and not go over?

I'll ask you again. Simple question. Based on your theory that perimeter defense is harder today, wouldn't that mean Jordan had it easier?

That's clearly what you want me to say. You're a sad individual.

[ginobli2311]

99-03' Greatest defensive Era...Zone/Man, physical.

this is true.

but brans.....you self banned yourself if the lakers lost to cavs. what gives?

[LA_Showtime]

Wonderful. Psycho 2.0 has shown up. This thread should be closed.

[branslowski]

this is true.

but brans.....you self banned yourself if the lakers lost to cavs. what gives?

Lakers lost to Cavs? Nah, you dreamin bro.

It didn't happen, it didn't happen, it didn't happen.....lol

[Knoe Itawl]

Because that wasn't the point of my argument, but is clearly the only reason you confronted me in the first place. I don't go into threads and look to tear down individual players. SMH.

So no answer just like I thought. That's what I was talking about. This is what the Kobe guys do these days. Throw shade at Jordan's era to intimate that he somehow had it easier. When confronted say "Oh no, I wasn't saying that" *whistle*

Otherwise you'd just answer a simple question, instead of avoiding it YET AGAIN.

[ginobli2311]

Sigh. There's no point arguing with a brick wall. Last time I'm responding to you. We seem to have these types of arguments every other week.

Defense is better today. Advancements in technology have caused teams to know exactly what other teams are doing. Because of this, the NBA changed the rules and allowed less perimeter contact, which has basically made the entire situation moot.

Yeah, the first season was clearly an aberration. That year scoring was easier. But it hasn't been like that since and you know it.

Again, stop bringing up Jordan. Nobody cares what he's doing. Hell, don't bring up Kobe either. You're basically a narrow minded person who can't think rationally because of your stupidity or anti-social tendencies. Just stop it. Don't assume people are ALWAYS trying to downplay Jordan's tendencies and maybe you wouldn't come off as a bitter Jordan fan who can't let anything go.

overall defense is better today than it was throughout most of the 90s. coaches focus a little more on defense and have more advanced strategies.

however, PERIMETER DEFENSE is far worse. so when you say defense is better today...its true....but its misleading because we are talking about perimeter players having it easier to score now.

and they do. since 2005 the defense on the perimeter became laughably bad. its starting to improve a little with the refs coming back to reality. but its still really really bad in terms of what you can and can't do as a defender. also, there are not as many great rim protecting centers like there were in the 90s. so now you have soft rules that don't allow much contact at all on the perimeter so guys can get space to shoot or get to the rim/ft line more easily.
and if they get to the rim, there usually isn't a tough obstacle or hard foul in their way.

players have improved also, there weren't as many durant/tmac/wade/kobe/lebron/melo guys back then. but its easier to score from the perimeter.....i still don't get how anyone that actually has watched basketball over the last 25 years disputes this.

[tontoz]

I haven't read through the thread so i dont know if this has been mentioned but Kobe has already played more games than Jordan.

[ginobli2311]

Lakers lost to Cavs? Nah, you dreamin bro.

It didn't happen, it didn't happen, it didn't happen.....lol

i'm just messing with you. glad you came back mate.

i'll be defending the lakers more now that this entire board is writing them off.
:cheers:

[LA_Showtime]

So no answer just like I thought. That's what I was talking about. This is what the Kobe guys do these days. Throw shade at Jordan's era to intimate that he somehow had it easier. When confronted say "Oh no, I wasn't saying that" *whistle*

Otherwise you'd just answer a simple question, instead of avoiding it YET AGAIN.

And you say I just bullshit. Give me a break man. You're so pathetic... all you do is start arguments and whenever people try and discuss basketball with you it turns into a "Oh my God... you are saying Kobe is better than Jordan." There are so many other factors together, but all you do is completely ignore them and use whatever people are saying and turn it into the most ridiculous, mind numbing arguments ever. You're a 5 year old child.

[catch24]

overall defense is better today than it was throughout most of the 90s. coaches focus a little more on defense and have more advanced strategies.

however, PERIMETER DEFENSE is far worse. so when you say defense is better today...its true....but its misleading because we are talking about perimeter players having it easier to score now.

and they do. since 2005 the defense on the perimeter became laughably bad. its starting to improve a little with the refs coming back to reality. but its still really really bad in terms of what you can and can't do as a defender. also, there are not as many great rim protecting centers like there were in the 90s. so now you have soft rules that don't allow much contact at all on the perimeter so guys can get space to shoot or get to the rim/ft line more easily.
and if they get to the rim, there usually isn't a tough obstacle or hard foul in their way.

players have improved also, there weren't as many durant/tmac/wade/kobe/lebron/melo guys back then. but its easier to score from the perimeter.....i still don't get how anyone that actually has watched basketball over the last 25 years disputes this.

Fantastic post, Gino (the bolded especially).

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ginobli2311 again. I got you on a rain check though, bro.

[LA_Showtime]

overall defense is better today than it was throughout most of the 90s. coaches focus a little more on defense and have more advanced strategies.

however, PERIMETER DEFENSE is far worse. so when you say defense is better today...its true....but its misleading because we are talking about perimeter players having it easier to score now.

and they do. since 2005 the defense on the perimeter became laughably bad. its starting to improve a little with the refs coming back to reality. but its still really really bad in terms of what you can and can't do as a defender. also, there are not as many great rim protecting centers like there were in the 90s. so now you have soft rules that don't allow much contact at all on the perimeter so guys can get space to shoot or get to the rim/ft line more easily.
and if they get to the rim, there usually isn't a tough obstacle or hard foul in their way.

players have improved also, there weren't as many durant/tmac/wade/kobe/lebron/melo guys back then. but its easier to score from the perimeter.....i still don't get how anyone that actually has watched basketball over the last 25 years disputes this.

I just believe perimeter defense as a whole is much improved today, but that current rules sort of even out the playing field per say. Honestly the hand checking isn't a huge deal... what really bothers me is whenever the refs are inconsistent, which happens to be a lot.

[ginobli2311]

I just believe perimeter defense as a whole is much improved today, but that current rules sort of even out the playing field per say. Honestly the hand checking isn't a huge deal... what really bothers me is whenever the refs are inconsistent, which happens to be a lot.

how is it much improved though? not trying to start an argument, but if you compared the perimeter defensive stoppers of the 90s to today, i'd take the 90s guys for sure.

i'd take the rim protectors of the 90s.

i'd take the rules of the 90s.

i don't want to hear about advancement in athleticism and so on. the game hasn't changed that much for the era creep to play here. there were plenty of guys back then that were supreme athletes as well. and obviously being a good defender is not dependent on size/athleticism. sometimes those can be weaknesses.

[Knoe Itawl]

And you say I just bullshit. Give me a break man. You're so pathetic... all you do is start arguments and whenever people try and discuss basketball with you it turns into a "Oh my God... you are saying Kobe is better than Jordan." There are so many other factors together, but all you do is completely ignore them and use whatever people are saying and turn it into the most ridiculous, mind numbing arguments ever. You're a 5 year old child.

Good, then you should be able to answer a simple question. So?

[LA_Showtime]

how is it much improved though? not trying to start an argument, but if you compared the perimeter defensive stoppers of the 90s to today, i'd take the 90s guys for sure.

i'd take the rim protectors of the 90s.

i'd take the rules of the 90s.

i don't want to hear about advancement in athleticism and so on. the game hasn't changed that much for the era creep to play here. there were plenty of guys back then that were supreme athletes as well. and obviously being a good defender is not dependent on size/athleticism. sometimes those can be weaknesses.

1) zone, although many will argue it's rarely played nowadays. watch teams like the celtics and lakers. they just load one side of the floor.

2) preparation. obviously video quality has improved and scouting has also gone up. teams know exactly what other teams are going to run.

[catch24]

Good, then you should be able to answer a simple question. So?

Haha, damn dude, you just don't give up do you? I do agree with most of your posts in this thread. I just don't see how perimeter defense is better today despite the league raping it's rules to help scorers from the perimeter put the ball in the hoop.

Gino broke it down perfectly.

[heyhey]

how is it much improved though? not trying to start an argument, but if you compared the perimeter defensive stoppers of the 90s to today, i'd take the 90s guys for sure.

i'd take the rim protectors of the 90s.

i'd take the rules of the 90s.

i don't want to hear about advancement in athleticism and so on. the game hasn't changed that much for the era creep to play here. there were plenty of guys back then that were supreme athletes as well. and obviously being a good defender is not dependent on size/athleticism. sometimes those can be weaknesses.

this was actually my point. Defense in the 90s was more personnel driven. Team played great defense as the result of the individual tenacity of the players.

teams in the 2000s play more complicated and coherent schemes designed to accomplish specific things more widely than before.

so I would say more time and energy is invested into defense now on the coaching level. But there may have been better individual defenders in the 90s.

[ginobli2311]

1) zone, although many will argue it's rarely played nowadays. watch teams like the celtics and lakers. they just load one side of the floor.

2) preparation. obviously video quality has improved and scouting has also gone up. teams know exactly what other teams are going to run.

zone - well....its is rarely used. there is also a three second in the key on defense that prevents for true zone. as for loading one side of the floor? almost every good defensive team since i've been watching the nba does this. shading and pseudo doubling is nothing new. some teams today do it very well. if your litmus test is the boston celtics.....then its a different story. the current celtics are a great defensive team and i'd put them up there with any defensive team of the 90s. but this is about defense as a whole.....for every celtics team there is a suns/warriors/kings/clippers/raptors....etc.

2. i agree. defensive schemes are more advanced and a lot of teams pay more attention to defense. but this does not make up for what happens in the game. the rules simply don't allow you to control/stop guys like kobe/wade/lebron without straight doubles.....and no team is every going to straight double a perimeter player that can pass.

[Knoe Itawl]

Haha, damn dude, you just don't give up do you? I do agree with most of your posts in this thread. I just don't see how perimeter defense is better today despite the league raping it's rules to help scorers from the perimeter put the ball in the hoop.

Gino broke it down perfectly.

I just don't like people avoiding answering a simple question. If you're going to make a statement that has an OBVIOUS conclusion, why p*ssy out about stating that conclusion?

And the funny thing is that guy admitted that they changed the rules to benefit perimeter players yet says that somehow resulted in it being tougher for perimeter players. It really is mindblowing the mental gymnastics some of these guys will come up with.

[ginobli2311]

as for the topic of the thread.

kobe is probably going to pass mj in game winners. (he might have already)

espn just did an analysis of kobe's entire career (every single game played)

kobe is 36 of 115 for 31.3 percent for his entire career.

kobe in the playoffs is 6 of 22 for 27.2 percent. we confirmed the accuracy of this in another thread the other day.

they are doing an analysis of jordan soon they say. i'll be really interested to see what its like.

the number of makes is somewhat misleading. for example, lebron is on pace to have many more game winners than kobe for his career. and lebron already has 5 playoff game winners in just 5 trips to the post season.

as always its about efficiency. and kobe and lebron are simply not that efficient in the situations....they just take a ton of shots.

[catch24]

:oldlol: at getting negged like 40 points for saying Gino had a good post. That's cool.

Enjoy being completely deluded, p*ssy.

[Calabis]

there were the pistons and the bulls but what other all time great defensive teams were there in the 90s?

teams played great defense in the 80s and 90s based almost entirely on personnels. Pippen and MJ, Isiah Dumar etc were great individual defenders.

Defense nowdays have much more complicated and cerebral schemes than there ever was in any point in NBA history.

Due to increased funding, advance statistics, defense is much better equiped at shutting down any player on any given night.

Knicks ever cross your mind?

[LA_Showtime]

:oldlol: at getting negged like 40 points for saying Gino had a good post. That's cool.

Enjoy being completely deluded, p*ssy.

At least you didn't get negged for starting a running thread in the OTC.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

kobe's not even in my top 10

That's why no one respects you as a troll

[griffmoney1784]

lol at people bumping my old threads


and btw kobe passed jordan in game winners 2 years ago

[andgar923]

People still believe the 'zone' non-sense?

KPAH24 aka Alpha Wolf has really brainwashed people.

[LA_Showtime]

People still believe the 'zone' non-sense?

KPAH24 aka Alpha Wolf has really brainwashed people.

It's not that ridiculous. The Lakers and Celtics just load one side of the floor.

[ginobli2311]

It's not that ridiculous. The Lakers and Celtics just load one side of the floor.

but so has every good defensive team in the last 30 years. they just went about it in different ways.

seriously. go back and watch the great defensive teams of the 90s. and then tell me they didn't load up on one side when star players had the ball.

its nothing new man. some teams play good defense. this isn't any different now than it was back the. the difference is that its a perimeter oriented game now because that is what the fans want....and they changed the rules to make it easier for them to score and produce.

[LA_Showtime]

but so has every good defensive team in the last 30 years. they just went about it in different ways.

seriously. go back and watch the great defensive teams of the 90s. and then tell me they didn't load up on one side when star players had the ball.

its nothing new man. some teams play good defense. this isn't any different now than it was back the. the difference is that its a perimeter oriented game now because that is what the fans want....and they changed the rules to make it easier for them to score and produce.

Whatever. I still say defenses are better today. Maybe individual defenders were better back in the late '80s and early '90s, but as a whole I think defense has improved. To each his own.

[andgar923]

Whatever. I still say defenses are better today. Maybe individual defenders were better back in the late '80s and early '90s, but as a whole I think defense has improved. To each his own.


this isn't about one's taste's, it is basically as close as a fact can get. Players today for all their athletic ability aren't allowed to play defense, nor do they know how.

Any advantages that they might have physically or nulled since the rules basically forbid them to play perimeter defense. It has been a series of NBA rule modifications throughout the years that have made it perimeter player friendly. These aren't theories, these are FACTS.

If players can't be physical or stop a player's progress, if a player can't camp in the lane for longer than 3 seconds (if that), if a player can't be touched, if the fine increases have increased and the interpretation of what constitutes as a foul, a flagrant etc.etc. exactly how are defenses today better?

Teams can't do certain things because the rules are against them.

Players in general are either handcuffed or are too dumb to know how to properly play defense.

Defense from past eras are better, because as hard as it is to believe for some you, imagine playing against a team every night, where almost everybody played like Bown or Artest, in regards to their physical nature? Imagine an era where perimeter players could be slowed down, re-directed by slower defenders because the rules allowed them to stop a player's momentum? an era in which the lanes were usually clogged up, so even if the perimeter player did penetrate it was too congested? an era in which what constitutes today for a flagrant foul possible ejection and 2 game suspension (along with a fine), was just a normal foul or at times not even called at all. An era in which one went through an American Gladiators like gauntlet just to get from point 'A' to point 'B' on both offense and defense. No holds barred Hulk Hogan grabbing, pushing, kneeing etc.etc.

NO.... this isn't make believe, or an exaggeration.

This shit was real and players faced this on a nightly basis.

Defensive schemes in which teams had no restrictions. Wanna double off the ball.... go ahead. Wanna camp in the lane? go ahead. You think it, you draw it up, you can do it.

There was scouts and video tapes back then as well. Main difference between today and past eras was today teams are more statistical and formula based. Today there's stats for everything and anything. Statistical and formula existed back then, but not to this level. Back then, if a player couldn't go to their left, scouts just stated.... "he can't go to his left" it wasn't broken down by percentages. if a player had problems when forced to the left block, then coaches drew plays to force that player that way. All of today's statisical formulas go to waste because coaches have their hands tied up. Which is why the Celtics basically run man to man defense about 90 something % of the time... they keep it old school and funky, thus one of the best defenses of their era. Even tho they actually don't run anything the Hawks didn't run in the 80s.

Past eras defense>>>>>> today's

Get over it.

[number23]

this isn't about one's taste's, it is basically as close as a fact can get. Players today for all their athletic ability aren't allowed to play defense, nor do they know how.

Any advantages that they might have physically or nulled since the rules basically forbid them to play perimeter defense. It has been a series of NBA rule modifications throughout the years that have made it perimeter player friendly. These aren't theories, these are FACTS.

If players can't be physical or stop a player's progress, if a player can't camp in the lane for longer than 3 seconds (if that), if a player can't be touched, if the fine increases have increased and the interpretation of what constitutes as a foul, a flagrant etc.etc. exactly how are defenses today better?

Teams can't do certain things because the rules are against them.

Players in general are either handcuffed or are too dumb to know how to properly play defense.

Defense from past eras are better, because as hard as it is to believe for some you, imagine playing against a team every night, where almost everybody played like Bown or Artest, in regards to their physical nature? Imagine an era where perimeter players could be slowed down, re-directed by slower defenders because the rules allowed them to stop a player's momentum? an era in which the lanes were usually clogged up, so even if the perimeter player did penetrate it was too congested? an era in which what constitutes today for a flagrant foul possible ejection and 2 game suspension (along with a fine), was just a normal foul or at times not even called at all. An era in which one went through an American Gladiators like gauntlet just to get from point 'A' to point 'B' on both offense and defense. No holds barred Hulk Hogan grabbing, pushing, kneeing etc.etc.

NO.... this isn't make believe, or an exaggeration.

This shit was real and players faced this on a nightly basis.

Defensive schemes in which teams had no restrictions. Wanna double off the ball.... go ahead. Wanna camp in the lane? go ahead. You think it, you draw it up, you can do it.

There was scouts and video tapes back then as well. Main difference between today and past eras was today teams are more statistical and formula based. Today there's stats for everything and anything. Statistical and formula existed back then, but not to this level. Back then, if a player couldn't go to their left, scouts just stated.... "he can't go to his left" it wasn't broken down by percentages. if a player had problems when forced to the left block, then coaches drew plays to force that player that way. All of today's statisical formulas go to waste because coaches have their hands tied up. Which is why the Celtics basically run man to man defense about 90 something % of the time... they keep it old school and funky, thus one of the best defenses of their era. Even tho they actually don't run anything the Hawks didn't run in the 80s.

Past eras defense>>>>>> today's

Get over it.


This.

[LA_Showtime]

So from what I read, Andgar, you're under the impression the generation you watched is superior to any other product. Interesting. Like I said, to each his own.

I would love for the NBA to allow hand checking and more hard fouls, but it's not going to happen.

[tpols]

So from what I read, Andgar, you're under the impression the generation you watched is superior to any other product. Interesting. Like I said, to each his own.

I would love for the NBA to allow hand checking and more hard fouls, but it's not going to happen.
lol at that exxagerative nostalgic bullshit he's spewing..

[number23]

So from what I read, Andgar, you're under the impression the generation you watched is superior to any other product. Interesting. Like I said, to each his own.

I would love for the NBA to allow hand checking and more hard fouls, but it's not going to happen.


Pretty sure he didn't say that. Pretty sure he said the NBA changed the rules to allow the advantage to the offense because its appealing to casual fans. Yep.

[LA_Showtime]

Pretty sure he didn't say that. Pretty sure he said the NBA changed the rules to allow the advantage to the offense because its appealing to casual fans. Yep.

If he didn't say it, he implied it. Yep.

[LA_Showtime]

lol at that exxagerative nostalgic bullshit he's spewing..

He makes a lot of good points too.

[number23]

If he didn't say it, he implied it. Yep.

So youre saying the rules haven't been changed to favor the offense?

[andgar923]

So from what I read, Andgar, you're under the impression the generation you watched is superior to any other product. Interesting. Like I said, to each his own.

I would love for the NBA to allow hand checking and more hard fouls, but it's not going to happen.

Again.... it isn't an impression, it isn't a case of 'to each his own' it is a damn near FACT.

I've stated this multiple times, and you live in L.A. (I'm assuming) so maybe we can do this.

You show up with your boys, and I'll show up with a ragtag of old timers. We can play for $500 if you want.

Under one condition.

We're allowed to play old school, you're not.

We'll be getting the benefit of today's rules and interpretations.

So if I drive, and I get a hand touching me, it will be called a foul, no ifs or buts about it.

If you have the ball, I will handcheck you, if you happen to beat me and the lane is too crowded, or if my teammate knees you don't be mad that you aint get a foul.... old school means you may not get it. So if you jump up, and my man pushes you down, too bad.

Like I grew up playing..... no blood no foul? pfft there aint no fouls here youngblood.

You set the date and the time if you want.

[LA_Showtime]

So youre saying the rules haven't been changed to favor the offense?

Did I say that? No. You clearly aren't a part of this conservation so will you kindly mind your own business? I wouldn't care except you're asking me stupid questions that I've already answered, and you clearly have an agenda. :oldlol:

[LA_Showtime]

Again.... it isn't an impression, it isn't a case of 'to each his own' it is a damn near FACT.

I've stated this multiple times, and you live in L.A. (I'm assuming) so maybe we can do this.

You show up with your boys, and I'll show up with a ragtag of old timers. We can play for $500 if you want.

Under one condition.

We're allowed to play old school, you're not.

We'll be getting the benefit of today's rules and interpretations.

So if I drive, and I get a hand touching me, it will be called a foul, no ifs or buts about it.

If you have the ball, I will handcheck you, if you happen to beat me and the lane is too crowded, or if my teammate knees you don't be mad that you aint get a foul.... old school means you may not get it. So if you jump up, and my man pushes you down, too bad.

Like I grew up playing..... no blood no foul? pfft there aint no fouls here youngblood.

You set the date and the time if you want.

You sound like an old man who wants to show everybody he's still got it. :oldlol:
I have my opinions and you have yours. I urge you to look up the definition of "fact," as you clearly don't understood its meaning.

[number23]

Did I say that? No. You clearly aren't a part of this conservation so will you kindly mind your own business? I wouldn't care expect you're asking me stupid questions that I've already answered, and you clearly have an agenda. :oldlol:


No agenda. You stated defenses are better today. I'm curious how you came to the conclusion if you "know" the rules have change to give the offense a major advantage. Sounds like you're contradicting yourself bud.

[catch24]

Again.... it isn't an impression, it isn't a case of 'to each his own' it is a damn near FACT.

I've stated this multiple times, and you live in L.A. (I'm assuming) so maybe we can do this.

You show up with your boys, and I'll show up with a ragtag of old timers. We can play for $500 if you want.

Under one condition.

We're allowed to play old school, you're not.

We'll be getting the benefit of today's rules and interpretations.

So if I drive, and I get a hand touching me, it will be called a foul, no ifs or buts about it.

If you have the ball, I will handcheck you, if you happen to beat me and the lane is too crowded, or if my teammate knees you don't be mad that you aint get a foul.... old school means you may not get it. So if you jump up, and my man pushes you down, too bad.

Like I grew up playing..... no blood no foul? pfft there aint no fouls here youngblood.

You set the date and the time if you want.

ROFLMAO!! If that's not an exaggeration then I don't know what is. You're confusing NBA rules with Street Ball play.

[andgar923]

Did I say that? No. You clearly aren't a part of this conservation so will you kindly mind your own business? I wouldn't care expect you're asking me stupid questions that I've already answered, and you clearly have an agenda. :oldlol:

So if according to league officials, the rules were changed to make it a perimeter player friendly league.....

According to coaches, gms, former players, players that played in both eras, today's rules make it easier for perimeter players to be successful....

You still think this is a matter of one's "to each its own"?

NIGGGA YOU STUPID!

And NO I know I don't still got it. But I'll take my old busted knee, out of shape, aint played in 8 years assss>>>>> yours if we play under the conditions I offered.

So.... you up for the game?:basketball

[andgar923]

ROFLMAO!! If that's not an exaggeration then I don't know what is. You're confusing NBA rules with Street Ball play.

You're reading it without context.

A. On one sentence I described what it was like playing in the NBA, which did happen. Maybe not that action which I described on a nightly basis, but it did happen frequently enough.

B. The other sentence was describing streetball play, you somehow joined the two together.... dunno why, they were in separate paragraphs.

[LA_Showtime]

So if according to league officials, the rules were changed to make it a perimeter player friendly league.....

According to coaches, gms, former players, players that played in both eras, today's rules make it easier for perimeter players to be successful....

You still think this is a matter of one's "to each its own"?

NIGGGA YOU STUPID!

And NO I know I don't still got it. But I'll take my old busted knee, out of shape, aint played in 8 years assss>>>>> yours if we play under the conditions I offered.

So.... you up for the game?:basketball

You're the stupid one. You can't decipher between facts and opinions.

According to former players, Kobe's the best player in the league. Is that true? Probably not. According to former players, Wilt would average 50 points today. Not true. According to former players, Jordan would average 100. He wouldn't.

And yes, you would probably beat me if you were allowed to blatantly foul me while I do nothing. But you're clearly exaggerating how the game was played. Your generation needs to move on. Jordan, Bird, and Magic aren't coming back. Deal with it. Watch the new product, or do us all a favor and stop trying to force the old one down our throats.

[andgar923]

You're the stupid one. You can't decipher between facts and opinions.

According to former players, Kobe's the best player in the league. Is that true? Probably not. According to former players, Wilt would average 50 points today. Not true. According to former players, Jordan would average 100. He wouldn't.

And yes, you would probably beat me if you were allowed to blatantly foul me while I do nothing. But you're clearly exaggerating how the game was played. Your generation needs to move on. Jordan, Bird, and Magic aren't coming back. Deal with it. Watch the new product, or do us all a favor and stop trying to force the old one down our throats.

Howabout YOU decipher the FACT that rules were explicitly changed to increase perimeter productivity.

Those are FACTS.

The comments coming from coaches, players, etc.etc. only add to my argument that past eras were indeed better defensively. So don't take my word or my deciphering if you don't want. But I'm sure that they have more credibility than you.

[LA_Showtime]

Howabout YOU decipher the FACT that rules were explicitly changed to increase perimeter productivity.

Those are FACTS.

The comments coming from coaches, players, etc.etc. only add to my argument that past eras were indeed better defensively. So don't take my word or my deciphering if you don't want. But I'm sure that they have more credibility than you.

That's great. Go watch some more tapes of the '80s and '90s and talk to people who care.

I love people like you. I don't understand how you live, when you can't accept change... I mean, come on dude... challenging someone to a pickup game? Really? :roll:

[andgar923]

That's great. Go watch some more tapes of the '80s and '90s and talk to people who care.

I love people like you. I don't understand how you live, when you can't accept change... I mean, come on dude... challenging someone to a pickup game? Really? :roll:

So that's what you gotta say?
:applause:

[LA_Showtime]

So that's what you gotta say?
:applause:

For someone who's clearly over 30 years old you're quite immature. Just an observation. Give it a rest.

[andgar923]

For someone who's clearly over 30 years old you're quite immature. Just an observation. Give it a rest.

My best quality.

On a somewhat related note....

From another thread, just thought it was somewhat relevant.

Dennis Rodman might make the HOF, somebody mentioned that he used to clamp up the opponent's best bigs, which is true. He'd at least give them tons of fits. None of that would've been possible if he played in today's era.

He also wouldn't grab as many rebounds either, since he wouldn't be allowed to grab and push to the same degree.

[LA_Showtime]

My best quality.

On a somewhat related note....

From another thread, just thought it was somewhat relevant.

Dennis Rodman might make the HOF, somebody mentioned that he used to clamp up the opponent's best bigs, which is true. He'd at least give them tons of fits. None of that would've been possible if he played in today's era.

He also wouldn't grab as many rebounds either, since he wouldn't be allowed to grab and push to the same degree.

And your point? I'd prefer a more physical game too. That's not what we're arguing about. We're arguing about one's opinions on today's game. Sorry, I mean "facts."

[catch24]

You're reading it without context.

A. On one sentence I described what it was like playing in the NBA, which did happen. Maybe not that action which I described on a nightly basis, but it did happen frequently enough.

B. The other sentence was describing streetball play, you somehow joined the two together.... dunno why, they were in separate paragraphs.

Huh? You're the one who mixed streetball and 'old school' NBA rules together in the first place:
You show up with your boys, and I'll show up with a ragtag of old timers. We can play for $500 if you want.

Under one condition.

We're allowed to play old school, you're not.

And no offense, but I can't tell what a paragraph is in your post. You write a sentence, then for some odd reason double space, in paragraph form, and do the same thing for your next sentence, lol.