Hey LOKI, come defend your precious PER this time...

[eliteballer]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-1

:oldlol: So Wade's 2006 Finals is the BEST performance of All-Time? Hell, I think MJ's 1991 performance and Shaq's 2000 performance are EASILY better just looking at the numbers.

[NewYorkUSCtrojan]

d-wade is a product made by the NBA. if you take away his free throws and numerous traveling spin moves. along with the traveling spin move, his slashing to the rim is traveling. wade has no defense, no outside shooting, no jump shot, and no leadership skills. wade is nothing!


MAVS should have won that Finals series..

[mhg88]

d-wade is a product made by the NBA. if you take away his free throws and numerous traveling spin moves. along with the traveling spin move, his slashing to the rim is traveling. wade has no defense, no outside shooting, no jump shot, and no leadership skills. wade is nothing!


No defense? Best blocking guard in the league. No jump shot? Midrange is money. No leadership? See 2006 playoffs. Wrong on all counts.


MAVS should have won that Finals series..

:violin: :cry:

[eliteballer]

No defense? Best blocking guard in the league. No jump shot? Midrange is money. No leadership? See 2006 playoffs. Wrong on all counts.



:violin: :cry:

His midrange is not money, dude shoots below 40% from mid-range per nba.com hotzones.

[NewYorkUSCtrojan]

No defense? Best blocking guard in the league. No jump shot? Midrange is money. No leadership? See 2006 playoffs. Wrong on all counts.



:violin: :cry:

Miami fans defending their "NBA MADE UP HERO"...Awwww how cute...

If you take away D_WHISTLE calls..Players would be aggressive with him.

[Kris75]

Not very surprising to see Wade's performance at the top. Unlike others who had overall better numbers, he carried an underdog team in dire straights (down 0-2, down 13 pts in gm 3 with about 6min left) to victory.

His ECF performance against Detroit that year was amazing too. Through mid-way game 5 of the series, he was shooting over 70% (ended up shooting 62%) FG/FA in the first 5 games: 9/11, 11/20, 13/17, 8/11, 11/20

[Emile]

Wade is the shyt. Jordan could never match that level of performance. As the numbers obviously show you.
But anyway, it's easy to get out of this one. Weak era, weak ass defense, handchecking rule, questionable calls, whatever. You lose again, Eliteballer. When there's a will, there's a way.

[grimreaper1377]

Not very surprising to see Wade's performance at the top. Unlike others who had overall better numbers, the refs carried an underdog team in dire straights (down 0-2, down 13 pts in gm 3 with about 6min left) to victory.

Fixed.

[stephanieg]

It's true that Wade was given many questionable calls which resulted in free points but the guy still put up a historic performance. However, this doesn't change the fact that PER is garbage. I'm not sure why Loki (if he does) or anyone else would rely on it in a serious discussion.

[Tainted Sword]

Loki getting owned by per? :oldlol:

This is priceless!

[Killer_Instinct]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-1

:oldlol: So Wade's 2006 Finals is the BEST performance of All-Time? Hell, I think MJ's 1991 performance and Shaq's 2000 performance are EASILY better just looking at the numbers.


http://i26.tinypic.com/4hf7tl.gif :oldlol: :applause:

[Vendetta]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-1

:oldlol: So Wade's 2006 Finals is the BEST performance of All-Time? Hell, I think MJ's 1991 performance and Shaq's 2000 performance are EASILY better just looking at the numbers.

There are anomalies for every single statistic... but the fact that the rest of the top 10 is nothing but 3 other players (Shaq, Duncan and Jordan) that are all top 10 players from all time pretty much destroys your argument that PER means nothing. Besides that, PER becomes a much more effective means of performance measurement over a long stretch of time... not 7 games.

[Kobe24]

LOL. Loki is gonna avoid this thread. After all those months defending the PER, Hollinger gives him a big **** you.

[Loki]

There are anomalies for every single statistic... but the fact that the rest of the top 10 is nothing but 3 other players (Shaq, Duncan and Jordan) that are all top 10 players from all time pretty much destroys your argument that PER means nothing. Besides that, PER becomes a much more effective means of performance measurement over a long stretch of time... not 7 games.

Exactly.

Also, PER is based on league/player averages (in this case, presumably Finals averages for both teams). In Wade's case (and Duncan's in 2003), no one else dominated during those Finals, which would mean that their own dominance would be compared to only non-dominant players playing in the series. In Jordan's case in '91, both Magic and Pippen clearly outplayed any non-Wade and non-Duncan player in the '06 and '03 Finals. In other words, there wasn't the deviation from other players in the series that Wade and Duncan enjoyed because, well, there were better players playing in Jordan's series. This also explains how a 41/9/6/51% series from Jordan in '93 only measured a 27.6 in PER -- because Barkley averaged something like 27/14/53% that series (and Pip put up like 21/9/8). This is exactly what the case is, since 41/8.5/6.3/51% (Jordan's 1993 Finals averages) is well beyond Jordan's season averages that year in every category, yet he recorded a 29.7 PER that season and supposedly only a 27.6 PER during the Finals. That's because he had other players playing in those Finals (Barkley, Magic, Pippen in both '91 and '93) who played at a very high level while Wade and Duncan didn't.

Pretty easy to understand, actually. Basically, there was a greater deviation from Wade and the other players in the '06 Finals than there was between Jordan and other players in his best Finals because, well, there were better players having better series in those Finals.

[juju151111]

Wade is the shyt. Jordan could never match that level of performance. As the numbers obviously show you.
But anyway, it's easy to get out of this one. Weak era, weak ass defense, handchecking rule, questionable calls, whatever. You lose again, Eliteballer. When there's a will, there's a way.
Check the ft #S with him against MJ 91 performance.please don't talk crap.Also this is all time finals per.Which is 6 gms.On less u think wade is wayyyyyyyyy better then kb because he not even on the list.Exactly the #s dont lie dwade had the best overall finals ever followed by timmy then the GOAT.wait a sec where is the great kb ohh yeah i forget not a big time finals guy.:(

[juju151111]

I dont always agree with loki, but he just owned u guys bad. reseach before u speak kome nutgaggers

[2LeTTeRS]

Check the ft #S with him against MJ 91 performance.please don't talk crap.Also this is all time finals per.Which is 6 gms.On less u think wade is wayyyyyyyyy better then kb because he not even on the list.Exactly the #s dont lie dwade had the best overall finals ever followed by timmy then the GOAT.wait a sec where is the great kb ohh yeah i forget not a big time finals guy.:(

I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic.

[juju151111]

I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic.
U have no idea wat he was refering to do u?

[mhg88]

I dont always agree with loki, but he just owned u guys bad. reseach before u speak kome nutgaggers

:oldlol: Everyone's all like "oh Loki getting owned by PER, he's going to avoid this thread, etc" then he just exposes their lack of knowledge. Owned

[juju151111]

:oldlol: Everyone's all like "oh Loki getting owned by PER, he's going to avoid this thread, etc" then he just exposes their lack of knowledge. Owned
LMFAO nobody is even responding to his post and normally kobe nutggagers respond in 30secs to loki.This is just too funny.Ownage at it's finest.

[Tainted Sword]

This thread wasn't made to bash Jordan for the sake of Kobe, you idiots. It was made to point out the fallacies in the per system. I mean, does anyone honestly think Wade’s 2006 finals run was the best in NBA history? Per says so, but we all know it's not true...

[2LeTTeRS]

U have no idea wat he was refering to do u?


Yes I do. Emille was being sarcastic when he said "Wade is the shyt. Jordan could never match that level of performance." How can you not decipher that just from reading the rest of the post?

[juju151111]

Yes I do. Emille was being sarcastic when he said "Wade is the shyt. Jordan could never match that level of performance." How can you not decipher that just from reading the rest of the post?
hmm i am talking about the rest of the post when he says it's because of weak era crap.He trying mimick a MJ fan.It doesn't matter tho.

[juju151111]

[QUOTE=Tainted Sword]This thread wasn't made to bash Jordan for the sake of Kobe, you idiots. It was made to point out the fallacies in the per system. I mean, does anyone honestly think Wade

[Loki]

[QUOTE=Tainted Sword]This thread wasn't made to bash Jordan for the sake of Kobe, you idiots. It was made to point out the fallacies in the per system. I mean, does anyone honestly think Wade

[Tainted Sword]

It might have been the largest deviation from his peers playing in that Finals series, yes. That's what PER measures. Think about it:

In '91, Jordan averaged 31.2 pts/6.6 reb/11.4 ast/2.8 stl/1.4 blk/55.8% FG, but:

- Magic averaged like 22/7/13
- Pippen averaged like 21/9/7

In '93, Jordan averaged 41.0 pts/8.5 reb/6.3 ast/51% FG, but:

- Barkley averaged 27/13/6/50%
- Pippen averaged 21/9/8

In 2001, Shaq averaged 33/16/56% FG, but:

- Iverson averaged 36/6/4
- Kobe averaged 25/8/6

Who played on that sort of level during the 2006 Finals besides Wade? No one. Dirk played well, but not spectacularly. PER normalizes the "average" player to a 15 PER based on averages (in this case team/player averages for the Finals series in question) and then measures each player's deviation from that. I'm also not sure if Hollinger only compared within teams as opposed to comparing every player in the entire series (which would further explain it, since Wade was a one man team in that Finals, essentially).
Yeah, I understand why Wade

[Loki]

[QUOTE=Tainted Sword]Yeah, I understand why Wade

[2LeTTeRS]

[QUOTE=Tainted Sword]BTW, you

[gts]

Still no response.Come on kobe nutgaggers.I never thought i would see the day that u guys get shut down so bad u don't even respond.LMAO I guest it's time to go spread ur nonsense in other threads huh?Oh well someone close this thread IT'S OVER.why would anyone with a lick of common sense want to waste their time debating with somebody that has this kind of attitude?

your post screams "i'm a narrow minded idiot"

it would be nothing more than an exercise in futilty...

[juju151111]

why would anyone with a lick of common sense want to waste their time debating with somebody that has this kind of attitude?

your post screams "i'm a narrow minded idiot"

it would be nothing more than an exercise in futilty...
lol i am not talking about my post kobe nutgagger.I am talking about Loki which kobe nutgaggers don't waste anytime to respond to his post normally, but now they just S^.LOL i just find it funny.:oldlol: please don't cry now:cry: Kobe is still the best today, but h will never be the BEST EVER.

[juju151111]

LOL.. Shaq in 2002 averaged more points, many more rebounds, exactly the same assists and a much higher FG% and his PER is somehow lower. Wow, what a great stat formula!

:hammerhead:
Huh??Wait wat are u comparing shaq 2002 stats too.Please explain???Also read Loki post on Page 1 to understand Per better if u need to.

[Fatal9]

Exactly.

because Barkley averaged something like 27/14/53% that series

* 27/13/47.6%

I notice you have a tendency to make minor adjustments like this.

[jmill]

* 27/13/47.6%

I notice you have a tendency to make minor adjustments like this.

Funny thing is there's not really an excuse for it either because it's really easy to go verify his actually numbers.

[juju151111]

Funny thing is there's not really an excuse for it either because it's really easy to go verify his actually numbers.
Doesn't matter really.27,13,47% is still great.The point he was making was wade didn't go against barkley and pips stats.

[Loki]

* 27/13/47.6%

I notice you have a tendency to make minor adjustments like this.

I edited it prior to your post to read 50%. Actually no, check my long post on page 2 -- I wrote 50% there, but forgot to correct my initial post.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Loki, PER does not take into account who was playing against each other in a game or series. You need to read Hollinger's definition again:


The Player Efficiency Rating (PER) is a rating of a player's per-minute productivity.

To generate it, I created formulas -- which I outlined in tortuous detail in the book "Pro Basketball Forecast" -- that return a value for each of a player's accomplishments. That includes positive accomplishments, such as field goals, free throws, 3-pointers, assists, rebounds, blocks and steals, and negative ones, such as missed shots, turnovers and personal fouls.

Two important things to remember about PER is that it's per-minute and pace-adjusted.

It's a per-minute measure because that allows us to compare, say, T.J. Ford to Jose Calderon, even though there is a disparity in the minutes they played.

I also adjust each player's rating for his team's pace, so that players on a slow-paced team like Detroit aren't penalized just because their team's games have fewer possessions than those of a fast-paced team such as Golden State.

Bear in mind that this rating is not the final, once-and-for-all answer for a player's accomplishments during the season. This is especially true for players -- such as Bruce Bowen and Jason Collins -- who are defensive specialists but don't get many blocks or steals.

What PER can do, however, is summarize a player's statistical accomplishments in a single number. That allows us to unify the disparate data on each player that we try to track in our heads (e.g., Corey Maggette: free-throw machine, good rebounder, decent shooter, poor passer, etc.) so that we can move on to evaluating what might be missing from the stats.

I set the league average in PER to 15.00 every season.

Among players who played at least 500 minutes in 2006-07, the highest rating was Dwyane Wade's 29.04. The lowest was Collins's 3.02.

[2LeTTeRS]

Loki, PER does not take into account who was playing against each other in a game or series. You need to read Hollinger's definition again:

That article does not specify if when listing the PER during a playoff series if all the other players in that games players are examined or the leauge average for that season is what is normalized as 15.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

That article does not specify if when listing the PER during a playoff series if all the other players in that games players are examined or the leauge average for that season is what is normalized as 15.

True, but it explains how it is calculated. Now then... Hollinger looked at more than just one year to calculate the Finals performance. He even states as much when he says:


That's where this project comes in. Using both numbers and a healthy dose of opinion, my task today is to rank the top 50 individual NBA Finals performances since the merger. I've included the player efficiency rating (PER) of every player in the top 50 as a guide, but this wasn't my only measuring stick. Basically, everything counts: competition, defense, clutch play, winning, durability ... it all matters.

He wasn't just looking at the competition in the Finals. The other players in the Finals did not really matter at all when considering the rating.

[XxNeXuSxX]

Exactly.

Also, PER is based on league/player averages (in this case, presumably Finals averages for both teams). In Wade's case (and Duncan's in 2003), no one else dominated during those Finals, which would mean that their own dominance would be compared to only non-dominant players playing in the series. In Jordan's case in '91, both Magic and Pippen clearly outplayed any non-Wade and non-Duncan player in the '06 and '03 Finals. In other words, there wasn't the deviation from other players in the series that Wade and Duncan enjoyed because, well, there were better players playing in Jordan's series. This also explains how a 41/9/6/51% series from Jordan in '93 only measured a 27.6 in PER -- because Barkley averaged something like 27/14/53% that series (and Pip put up like 21/9/8). This is exactly what the case is, since 41/8.5/6.3/51% (Jordan's 1993 Finals averages) is well beyond Jordan's season averages that year in every category, yet he recorded a 29.7 PER that season and supposedly only a 27.6 PER during the Finals. That's because he had other players playing in those Finals (Barkley, Magic, Pippen in both '91 and '93) who played at a very high level while Wade and Duncan didn't.

Pretty easy to understand, actually. Basically, there was a greater deviation from Wade and the other players in the '06 Finals than there was between Jordan and other players in his best Finals because, well, there were better players having better series in those Finals.

Actually, you're completely right. Owned Eliteballer :)

[XxNeXuSxX]

This thread wasn't made to bash Jordan for the sake of Kobe.
Yes, yes it was. Look at the OP, look at a history of all his threads created. Thank you.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

[quote]All calculations begin with what I am calling unadjusted PER (uPER). The formula is:

uPER = (1 / MP) *
[ 3P
+ (2/3) * AST
+ (2 - factor * (team_AST / team_FG)) * FG
+ (FT *0.5 * (1 + (1 - (team_AST / team_FG)) + (2/3) * (team_AST / team_FG)))
- VOP * TOV
- VOP * DRB% * (FGA - FG)
- VOP * 0.44 * (0.44 + (0.56 * DRB%)) * (FTA - FT)
+ VOP * (1 - DRB%) * (TRB - ORB)
+ VOP * DRB% * ORB
+ VOP * STL
+ VOP * DRB% * BLK
- PF * ((lg_FT / lg_PF) - 0.44 * (lg_FTA / lg_PF) * VOP) ]

Most of the terms in the formula above should be clear, but let me define the less obvious ones:

factor = (2 / 3) - (0.5 * (lg_AST / lg_FG)) / (2 * (lg_FG / lg_FT))
VOP = lg_PTS / (lg_FGA - lg_ORB + lg_TOV + 0.44 * lg_FTA)
DRB% = (lg_TRB - lg_ORB) / lg_TRB

I am not going to go into details about what each component of the PER is measuring; that's why John writes and sells books.

Problems arise for seasons prior to 1979-80:

* 1979-80

[Loki]

Loki, PER does not take into account who was playing against each other in a game or series. You need to read Hollinger's definition again:

You're wrong. This is how SEASONAL PER is calculated. Obviously when calculating PER for a SINGLE SERIES, he's using the averages from THAT SERIES as opposed to the entire season for the entire league.

Can't believe you don't grasp this.


So looing at the formula, it isn't the competition per se as it is league pace and team pace factors in.

Yes, and in THIS CASE, the "league" = the two teams playing in the Finals and all the players therein.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Yes, and in THIS CASE, the "league" = the two teams playing in the Finals and all the players therein.

Then you are missing the point as well. Pace has nothing to do with competition on who is on the court but has everything to do with how the team plays. A player's PER does not change because he is playing a great player. A player's PER however may be affected because he is playing a slower team therefore having less opportunities to get statistics. But when you factor in pace... the PER evens out.

Jordan can have a 30 PER in the fast paced 80's or the slow paced 90's. It makes no difference what the individual competition is since it garners the team's influence.

For example:

Jordan goes up against a team that averages 95 PPG. They have no real superstars but they get their points, rebounds, collectively as a team. Then he goes against a a team that has a superstar or two on the team bbut they still only average 95 PPG. But they don't get their points, rebounds, etc as a collective team, they rely on their superstars for most of the output. Will his PER be higher playing against one team or the other? NOPE. They will be the same.

[sic]

Give me tha 2006 Wade in any NBA finals anytime. Specially after watching the great closer (:roll: ) kobe choking against detroit in the finals and now against the Celtics.