1 year later: 100 Greatest Players of All-Time According to ISH

[L.Kizzle]

OK, a year ago the greatest threads in ISH history was started. We went through 100 plus days figuring out who were the best. Now a years later, looking back at the list, what would y'all change? Which legend is too high or too low, which current player moved up and which current player was too high to begin with?

Here is the list ...



ISH 100 Greatest NBA Players of All-Time
1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Earvin 'Magic' Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Tim Duncan
11. Jerry West
12. Julius Erving
13. Moses Malone
14. Elgin Baylor
15. Bob Pettit
16. John Havlicek
17. Karl Malone
18. George Mikan
19. David Robinson
20. Isiah Thomas
21. Charles Barkley
22. John Stockton
23. Bob Cousy
24. Kobe Bryant
25. Rick Barry
26. Scottie Pippen
27. Clyde Drexler
28. Gary Payton
29. Willis Reed
30. Patrick Ewing
31. Allen Iverson
32. Walt Frazier
33. Elvin Hayes
34. George Gervin
35. Jason Kidd
36. Dave Cowens
37. Kevin Garnett
38. Bob McAdoo
39. Nate Thurmond
40. Wes Unseld
41. Kevin McHale
42. Dolph Schayes
43. Dominique Wilkins
44. Bill Walton
45. Sam Jones
46. Kevin Johnson
47. Dennis Rodman
48. Dirk Nowitzki
49. Steve Nash
50. Billy Cunningham
-----
51. Nate 'Tiny' Archibald
52. 'Pistol' Pete Maravich
53. Tracy McGrady
54. Hal Greer
55. Jerry Lucas
56. Robert Parish
57. Earl 'the Pearl' Monroe
58. Bernard King
59. Artis Gilmore
60. Alex English
61. James Worthy
62. Joe Dumars
63. Bill Sharman
64. Reggie Miller
65. Paul Arizin
66. Sidney Moncrief
67. Dave DeBusschere
68. Dave Bing
69. David Thompson
70. Lenny Wilkens
71. Adrian Dantley
72. Bob Lanier
73. Neil Johntson
74. Walt Bellamy
75. Vince Carter
76. Spencer Haywood
77. Ray Allen
78. Dennis Johnson
79. Paul Pierce
80. Dikembe Mutombo
81. Connie Hawkins
82. Chris Webber
83. Chris Mullin
84. Grant Hill
85. Mitch Richmond
86. Dan Issel
87. 'Jumpin' Joe Fulks
88. Alonzo Mourning
89. Shawn Kemp
90. Mark Price
91. Anfernee 'Penny' Hardaway
92. Tommy Heinsohn
93. George McGinnis
94. Tim Hardaway
95. Mel Daniels
96. Bob Davies
97. Tom Chambers
98. Maurice Cheeks
99. Ben Wallace
100. Mark Aguirre

[Lebron23]

Kevin Garnett is now officially a top 25 player of all time.

[LBJ 4 MVP]

Kobe obviously moved way up. I didn't join ISH until we were at about #56, and I was voting from that point on. It was very fun and caused for alot of good basketball arguments.

[Emeka Okafor xD]

how the **** is ben wallance in that ****en list? :(

[SCY]

Robertson is nowhere near the top 10. If people knocked Garnett for never winning a title before this year, then you do the same for Robertson for riding a top 3 center's coattails to his only and undeserved championship. He was a useless role player at that time. Garnett's stats may be the greatest we've ever seen from a PF.

:oldlol: What kind of useless role player averages 18 points, 9 assists & 5 boards in the playoffs?

[LBJ 4 MVP]

:oldlol:What kind of useless role player averages 18 points, 9 assists & 5 boards in the playoffs?
It doesnt matter because he played in a WEAK ERA:oldlol:

[SCY]

I agree that he's overrated actually, but calling him a "useless role player" was overboard.

[L.Kizzle]

What kind of top 8 player of all-time misses the playoffs 4 straight seasons, plays terrible defense, and rides the coattails of the greatest center of his decade to his only championship?

Robertson is barely a top 8 PG in league history, let alone a top 8 player. He should be around the 25-30 range of all-time.
What kind of player had the misfortune of playing in the same conference as the Celtics, 6ers, Hawks and Knicks in the '60s.

[Glove_20]

KJ too low

GP about right

AI too high


Obviously Ray, KG, and Pierce could get some boosts

[guy]

I know I'm going to get hated on but I would move Shaq, Hakeem, and Duncan ahead of Russell and Oscar. After this year, Kobe, KG, Pierce, and Allen should be moved up. Kobe should be in the top 15, KG in the top 25, Pierce in AT LEAST the top 50, while Allen should just be moved up. And how the hell is Vince Carter ahead of Chris Webber? Thats just wrong. And am I missing something cause I don't see Wade or Lebron on that list? They've definitely played long enough and accomplished enough to be on the list. They've definitely surpassed guys like Shawn Kemp, Mark Price, Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, Tim Hardaway, Ben Wallace, Vince Carter, Mitch Richmond, and probably more.

[artificial]

Thank god the idiot from the weak era wasn't here when that list was done. Furthermore, his opinions shouldn't be in anyway considered for the intellectual health of this topic/list.

Garnett probably moved himself into the top 30 with this year's ring and DPOY. Kobe's MVP also probably gained him 2, maybe 3 spots. Pierce may have moved himself ahead of Ray, maybe not. Jason Kidd is too high.

I was freaked to see Ben Wallace, but having won 4 DOPY's, he surprisingly deserves it.

[Voulnet]

I'd move garbage like Cousy, Pettit and Mikan down to 70-80. Either that, or just completely take them off the list.

Move Bryant up to the 10-14 range, and way ahead of West, since he wouldn't be any good today, choked in the Finals, and rode Wilt's coattails to a few titles.

Robertson is nowhere near the top 10. If people knocked Garnett for never winning a title before this year, then you do the same for Robertson for riding a top 3 center's coattails to his only and undeserved championship. He was a useless role player at that time. Garnett's stats may be the greatest we've ever seen from a PF.

This list proves why Bill Russell may be the most overrated athlete in the history of American sports. What has he done to deserve a spot ahead of Shaq? Russell might be lucky to have 1/2 of Miami Shaq's impact if he played today. We're going rank a player who led his team to a 3-peat while averaging the absolute greatest Finals stats for a C in NBA history over an offensively challenged, one-dimensional Bill Russell? Not a chance. Shaq should be around 5-6. Move Russell down to 18-20.
You're a disgrace to basketball fans. George Mikan was a basketball team by himself, the guy won a f*cking championship playing with a broken hand.
You're a true disgrace to basketball, calling one of the Lakers and the NBA's greatest legends garbage. Go read something about Mikan before you shoot off your mouth.
The same goes for your comments about Bill Russell, who, deservedly, is the NBA's greatest winner.
11 Rings are not a fluke.

[highwhey]

There's a few players that belong in front of Duncan.

[L.Kizzle]

Mikan would either be the 12th man on the worst NBA team today or in the D-League. You could even argue (if you really wanted to) that he wouldn't be good enough to play for any D1 school today. It's not hard to win a championship when the second best player of your era was Bob Pettit, another overrated '50s HOFer who would be useless today. All '50s players would be garbage today, including Mikan and Pettit. I've probably forgotten more about Mikan than you ever knew about him.



Bill Russell is not the greatest winner in NBA history, which has been proven in this thread: http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92329

Russell was a good player, like I said. Being top 20 all-time means that only 19 other players in NBA history were greater than you.
But it's not about who would be the best today or who would make a team in 2008, it's what they did in their time.

It's kind of like the Beatles or Sly and the Family Stone. Would those bands be top selling artist in 2008, no because that's not what is popular now, but are they still great, of course.

[L.Kizzle]

If their time had no competition, they should be penalized for it. When a player like George Mikan -- who was considered the greatest basketball player of the first half-century -- averages 23/10 in the worst era ever, he should not be ranked ahead of true legends like Barkley, Kobe, Robinson Drexler, Iverson, Ewing, etc.
The only player who you could say had no real comp is George Mikan. His biggest comp were centers Clyde Lovellete and Neil Johnston, not really household names but HOF'ers. Even the other great earlier players had comp at their position, but he was really the only one at center.

[dhenk]

If anything, Kobe has to move down.
The MVP is a useless accomplishment if you can

[TheAnswer]

Iverson>Drexler

[w00terz]

KJ too low

GP about right

AI too high


Obviously Ray, KG, and Pierce could get some boosts

AI is a better player than GP you freaking douche bag.

:lol

[D-Fence]

But it's not about who would be the best today or who would make a team in 2008, it's what they did in their time.

It's kind of like the Beatles or Sly and the Family Stone. Would those bands be top selling artist in 2008, no because that's not what is popular now, but are they still great, of course.We did count era's against players. That was talked about quite a bit. And, if we didn't--if all eras were considered equal, Mikan would be considered the GOAT, or at least top 5; instead, he was #18, and that was even argued. Joe Fulks was the best player in the league for 2 seasons, within the top 2 for another, would've been a 2-time MVP, 2-time Finals MVP, and was a 2-time scoring champ, and a champion and he's at #87. The old-time players were also greatly penalized because many didn't know who they were.


The only player who you could say had no real comp is George Mikan. His biggest comp were centers Clyde Lovellete and Neil Johnston, not really household names but HOF'ers. Even the other great earlier players had comp at their position, but he was really the only one at center.Eh, 7 other players on the list played against Mikan. Center Ed Macauley was getting some support near the end of the list, too. One thing that seems to be forgotten is that Mikan did have some quality teammates; he didn't win championships by himself. Jim Pollard should've made this list. Vern Mikkelsen had a case, too. Slater Martin is in the Hall of Fame. Lovellette was Mikan's teammate (not opponent), and he made for a very good big off the bench to begin his career. For Mikan's pre-Lakers NBL title, he played with Bobby McDermont, a Hall of Famer. Not playing with a shot clock--the way basketball was played back then is probably just not easy for many to appreciate. Anyhow, going from top 5 to #18 is a significant era penalty, especially if you consider his influence on the game, his status as a pioneer worth anything. Ask Bill Russell who inspired him.


OK, a year ago the greatest threads in ISH history was started. We went through 100 plus days figuring out who were the best. Now a years later, looking back at the list, what would y'all change? Which legend is too high or too low, which current player moved up and which current player was too high to begin with?I don't agree with this list from top to bottom. That's not too important, though. It wasn't an easy list to make. Regardless, there are some really bad placements. Not even getting into crossing eras, there are some questionable placements. Erving is over Moses even though he was second to Moses when they were on the same team. Baylor shouldn't be over Pettit. Bill Sharman was not better than Paul Arizin and Neil Johnston. With fewer participants near the end of the list, the list became more misplaced, too. I don't think Penny Hardaway or Tom Chambers are within the 100, to just name two. And, as already mentioned, current players would climb the list (Garnett was too low anyhow). I guess we'd have to make room for LeBron James and Dwyane Wade, too.

[mlh1981]

Something to consider..........

Players from the "old days" didn't have any of the advantages that today's athletes enjoy. They flew on regular commercial planes, didn't have the same nutrition/workout technological advances that many of today athletes have, and many had offseason jobs, so they weren't able to concentrate as heavily on the game 24/7/365 as todays greats do.

[Nevaeh]

[QUOTE=dhenk]If anything, Kobe has to move down.
The MVP is a useless accomplishment if you can

[daballa13]

Iverson deserves to be higher than Ewing IMO

[brwnman]

BS. Where is Milt Palacio? You can't hold it against him that the backboard is too hard. He plays in a strong backboard era, if he didn't, all of his layup attempts would go in, this is just too much hatred against him...

[Nets fan 93]

LOL I dont know why but I just started cracking up when I saw Big Ben on the list

[sick_brah07]

i had a big ass arguement with some idiot who tried to convince me cousy was better then kobe, there should be a list for 100 most skillful players and another 100 for players that acomplished the most

[EvinWizzle]

Iverson too low

[VCMVP1551]

My top 20.

1.Michael Jordan
2.Magic Johnson
3.Shaquille O'Neal
4.Kareem Abdul Jabbar
5.Wilt Chamberlain
6.Hakeem Olajuwon
7.Bill Russell
8.Larry Bird
9.Tim Duncan
10.Jerry West
11.Isiah Thomas
12.Scottie Pippen
13.Moses Malone
14.John Havlicek
15.Kobe Bryant
16.Kevin Garnett
17.Charles Barkley
18.Oscar Robertson
19.Karl Malone
20.Julius Erving

[Koop1]

Ben ****ing wallace is on this list
be ****ing wallace
BEN WALLACE IS ON THIS ****ING LIST
this is a jokee
I expect to see Gilbert on it at the end of next year when he starts torching niggasss again

[Koop1]

im not a kobe fan
but personally i feel , kobe Bryant is 93489054894398048905895 X better than ****ing larry Bird
Larry Bird over kobe bryant
LOLLLLLLL

[Junny]

Something to consider..........

Players from the "old days" didn't have any of the advantages that today's athletes enjoy. They flew on regular commercial planes, didn't have the same nutrition/workout technological advances that many of today athletes have, and many had offseason jobs, so they weren't able to concentrate as heavily on the game 24/7/365 as todays greats do.

I agree. Stripping a great player of his status "because he played in a weak era" is just wrong. Things were different back then. Every phucking single era is going to be different. Just ease up and accept people's achievements.

[dhenk]

im not a kobe fan
but personally i feel , kobe Bryant is 93489054894398048905895 X better than ****ing larry Bird
Larry Bird over kobe bryant
LOLLLLLLL

Does anyone else feel a little bit ashamed? :ohwell:

[Junny]

Ben ****ing wallace is on this list
be ****ing wallace
BEN WALLACE IS ON THIS ****ING LIST
this is a jokee
I expect to see Gilbert on it at the end of next year when he starts torching niggasss again

DPOY, championship, sure it may come as a surprise but are you really THAT surprised?

[TheAnswer]

Iverson too low
Yep agreed..He should be around 26 not higher than Kobe..but higher than GP and Drexler

[plowking]

Yep agreed..He should be around 26 not higher than Kobe..but higher than GP and Drexler

No way. GP is better then Allen Iverson. Iverson is a great player, but GP is amazing.

And does anyone else think Steve Nash is way too high on that list? Honestly, I think the guy doesn't deserve to be there, and I don't care about the MVP's. Hardaway is better then him and he is way down in 99th spot I think it was.

Nash simply is a product of his system.

What makes Nash better then Billups? Billups led his team to a championship and was the finals MVP. While Nash has shown for three straight years he cannot take the team with the best supporting cast in the league to a championship. They had 3 legit stars, a terrific scorer, a lockdown defender and a big bodied centre. Yet Nash couldn't get them over the line with one of the best supporting casts in recent times.

[Revelation]

My top 20.

1.Michael Jordan
2.Magic Johnson
3.Shaquille O'Neal
4.Kareem Abdul Jabbar
5.Wilt Chamberlain
6.Hakeem Olajuwon
7.Bill Russell
8.Larry Bird
9.Tim Duncan
10.Jerry West
...........

Bird at #8? Don't you think that is a little low? Most people put him at #4 or 5. If Magic Johnson is #2 then Bird can be no worse than #4 (In my opinion).

[cliffhagan]

Here's just a few thoughts I had while perusing the list. I might be thinking wrong though as I need to update my lists.

WAY Too High (15 spots +):
Wes Unseld
Bill Walton
Patrick Ewing
Dennis Rodman
Kevin Johnson
Anfernee Hardaway
Ben Wallace
Tom Chambers
Shawn Kemp
Joe Fulks

Too High (8-15 spots):
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
George Mikan
Willis Reed
Dave Cowens
Gary Payton (I'm a huge Glove fan too)
Kevin McHale
Steve Nash
Tracy McGrady
Robert Parish
Vince Carter
Tim Hardaway


Kinda Too High (4-8 spots):
Tim Duncan
Dirk Nowitzki (I'm a HUGE Dirk fan too)


WAY Too Low (15 spots +):
Bob Lanier (How is Wes Unseld AND Bill Walton 30 spots ahead of Bob Lanier???)
Pete Maravich
Kevin Garnett (even before he won his title he was higher)

Too Low (8-15 spots):
Kobe Bryant
Dave DeBusschere
Spencer Haywood

Kinda Too Low (4-8 spots):
Jason Kidd


Missing (Debatingly) / Fringe guys:
Cliff Hagan (Tom Chambers, Joe Fulks, Chris Mullin over Cliff Hagan????)
Bailey Howell
Clyde Lovellette (I can see how you'd leave him off though)
Jack Sikma (I'd pick him over Walton)
Ed Macauley (I'd pick him over Walton)
Vern Mikkelsen
Harry Gallatin
Maurice Lucas
Rudy LaRusso
Marques Johnson
Bob Dandridge
Tom Gola


I'm going to re-update my lists and see how they match up...

[Skywalker]

Pierce moves up the most out of all the guys on the list Id say.

[VCMVP1551]

Bird at #8? Don't you think that is a little low? Most people put him at #4 or 5. If Magic Johnson is #2 then Bird can be no worse than #4 (In my opinion).


I can't put Bird above guys like Shaq and Kareem because they won more, scored more and played better defense.

I can't put Bird above Wilt because of his scoring and defense, he's below Hakeem because of defense aswell.

Maybe as an overall player I'd put Bird ahead of Russell come to think of it actually.

[Revelation]

I can't put Bird above guys like Shaq and Kareem because they won more, scored more and played better defense.

I can't put Bird above Wilt because of his scoring and defense, he's below Hakeem because of defense aswell.

Maybe as an overall player I'd put Bird ahead of Russell come to think of it actually.

I understand your reasoning; however, you place Magic at # 2 all-time while he was never considered a good defender. In fact, I would say due to effort and determination that Bird was a better defensive player than was Magic.

Further, Hakeem Olajuwon and Russell were great defensive players but neither was offensively on Bird's level. Though I should say that Olajuwon was a terrific offensive talent.

As for Shaq, I can't really argue with you putting him so high even though most would put him at #6 or 7.

Here is my top 10, in case you were wondering.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Larry Bird
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Bill Russell
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Tim Duncan
10. Oscar Robertson

HM: Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Moses Malone, Julius Erving

[Psileas]

Too High (8-15 spots):
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Kareem was voted at #3 and I agree with him being ranked there, after Wilt and Jordan. I believe he could make a case for #1, but no way can he be argued to be 8-15 places after 3rd. That would put him at #11-18. Who else could be ahead of him and why? The absolute worst scenario for me would be to rank him below Wilt, Jordan, Russell, Magic, Bird, Shaq and close to Oscar, Hakeem, West, Duncan and Dr.J. But certainly not below all of them. I see no criterion whatsoever to argue such a low rank.

[VCMVP1551]

I understand your reasoning; however, you place Magic at # 2 all-time while he was never considered a good defender. In fact, I would say due to effort and determination that Bird was a better defensive player than was Magic.

Yeah but Magic won 2 more titles, repeated as champion and made 5 more Finals appearances.

Had Bird not started getting injured a lot while he was still in his prime I think he would have ended up even higher.


Further, Hakeem Olajuwon and Russell were great defensive players but neither was offensively on Bird's level. Though I should say that Olajuwon was a terrific offensive talent.

I disagree as far as Hakeem. He had probably the best post moves of any big man but he also had a shooting touch out to 15-17 feet aswell as being a great passer for a big man. There is a reason why successful teams choose to build around low post players so often.


Here is my top 10, in case you were wondering.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Larry Bird
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Bill Russell
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Tim Duncan
10. Oscar Robertson

HM: Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Moses Malone, Julius Erving

Good list, while mine is different I can't say you had any bad choices.

[Sicknote]

I think Pippen and Kobe should either switch spots or both move up one.

[Revelation]

Here's just a few thoughts I had while perusing the list. I might be thinking wrong though as I need to update my lists.

Too High (8-15 spots):
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
George Mikan
Willis Reed
Dave Cowens
Gary Payton (I'm a huge Glove fan too)
Kevin McHale
Steve Nash
Tracy McGrady
Robert Parish
Vince Carter
Tim Hardaway


Can you explain why? I am not a Kareem fan but his accomplishments and statistics seem to clearly place him in the #2 - #5 range on any list.

[cliffhagan]

Kareem was voted at #3 and I agree with him being ranked there, after Wilt and Jordan. I believe he could make a case for #1, but no way can he be argued to be 8-15 places after 3rd. That would put him at #11-18. Who else could be ahead of him and why? The absolute worst scenario for me would be to rank him below Wilt, Jordan, Russell, Magic, Bird, Shaq and close to Oscar, Hakeem, West, Duncan and Dr.J. But certainly not below all of them. I see no criterion whatsoever to argue such a low rank.

You know, this thread has made me rethink my all-time ranks, so I think they are definitely subject to change and I'm probably smoking something. :) That list above I made while glancing at my current all-time ranks, and probably needs tweaked. That being said, I'd probably still pick these guys over Kareem (not in order):


Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Bob Pettit
Julius Erving
Larry Bird
Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
Oscar Robertson
Magic Johnson

As far as criteria for choosing them....uh....let me get back to you. :D I'm gonna try and do an extended, thorough reranking of NBA players all-time. Yeah, I'm REALLY bored at work.

[cliffhagan]

Can you explain why? I am not a Kareem fan but his accomplishments and statistics seem to clearly place him in the #2 - #5 range on any list.

Now you guys are making me doubt myself. Ugh.


I just realized that Kobe can't work with teammates and probably needs moved down on my lists...

Crap.

[Dasher]

Beefs:

Karl Malone and David Robinson over Zeke.

Pippen over Nique. One guy was a second fiddle the other guy was the man.

Pistol Pete is way too high.

Sidney Moncrief was a better player than Joe Dumars.

Benard King is way too low, and Andrew Toney and Walter Ray Richardson should have been on the list.

Robert Parish over Artis Gilmore is a joke.

TMac and Vince Carter should have been closer together. Vince has accomplished more in the league and should be higher on the list than Tracy.

Dennis Johnson(RIP) should not be on the list.

Bill Walton is way too high. He did not play at a high level long enough to be that high on the list.

[statman32]

This dude really thinks Kobe/David Robinson/Erving/Pettit are better than Kareem. :lol

[cliffhagan]

This dude really thinks Kobe/David Robinson/Erving/Pettit are better than Kareem. :lol


I know. What an idiot! Oh wait....:cry:

[statman32]

I know. What an idiot! Oh wait....:cry:
But seriously. Have you looked at Kareems stats/accomplishments/rings/etc. I don't see how you came about rankings him behind those guys. You're being cool about it so I won't insult you but COME ON!

[D-Fence]

Here's just a few thoughts I had while perusing the list. I might be thinking wrong though as I need to update my lists.

WAY Too High (15 spots +):
Wes Unseld
Bill Walton
Patrick Ewing
Dennis Rodman
Kevin Johnson
Anfernee Hardaway
Ben Wallace
Tom Chambers
Shawn Kemp
Joe Fulks

Too High (8-15 spots):
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
George Mikan
Willis Reed
Dave Cowens
Gary Payton (I'm a huge Glove fan too)
Kevin McHale
Steve Nash
Tracy McGrady
Robert Parish
Vince Carter
Tim Hardaway


Kinda Too High (4-8 spots):
Tim Duncan
Dirk Nowitzki (I'm a HUGE Dirk fan too)


WAY Too Low (15 spots +):
Bob Lanier (How is Wes Unseld AND Bill Walton 30 spots ahead of Bob Lanier???)
Pete Maravich
Kevin Garnett (even before he won his title he was higher)

Too Low (8-15 spots):
Kobe Bryant
Dave DeBusschere
Spencer Haywood

Kinda Too Low (4-8 spots):
Jason Kidd


Missing (Debatingly) / Fringe guys:
Cliff Hagan (Tom Chambers, Joe Fulks, Chris Mullin over Cliff Hagan????)
Bailey Howell
Clyde Lovellette (I can see how you'd leave him off though)
Jack Sikma (I'd pick him over Walton)
Ed Macauley (I'd pick him over Walton)
Vern Mikkelsen
Harry Gallatin
Maurice Lucas
Rudy LaRusso
Marques Johnson
Bob Dandridge
Tom Gola


I'm going to re-update my lists and see how they match up...Yeah, I'd update your list. I kind of agree with some of those re-rankings, but others seem ridiculous. Hagan isn't over Fulks. I guess Hagan might be a favorite of yours, but he's still only a 2-time 2nd Teamer and Fulks had three seasons of being one of the two best pro basketball players. 15+ spots would take Fulks off the list, and you suggest he could be replaced by guys he outperformed in his own time and other old-timers who came shortly after him--Mikkelsen, Gallatin, etc.

You'd have to really rate durability high to put Sikma and Macauley over Walton.

I don't think Pete Maravich was ranked low enough. I pushed to put him low on the list. If I'm counting right, you want his short career of no-D flash over Walton and several other winners and team players. I disagree with that.


You know, this thread has made me rethink my all-time ranks, so I think they are definitely subject to change and I'm probably smoking something. That list above I made while glancing at my current all-time ranks, and probably needs tweaked. That being said, I'd probably still pick these guys over Kareem (not in order):


Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Bob Pettit
Julius Erving
Larry Bird
Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
Oscar Robertson
Magic JohnsonNo way Robinson, Erving, Bryant, Oscar Robertson! are ahead of Kareem. Psileas had it right as to about how low you can put him. Robertson is an especially strange pick. The Big O would've been second fiddle to prime Kareem at any age.

I'd like to see what your list looks like with some more thought. From the information you've given here, it's perplexing.

[Nevaeh]

Now you guys are making me doubt myself. Ugh.


I just realized that Kobe can't work with teammates and probably needs moved down on my lists...

Crap.
Having watched more of Kobe this passed season, I have to say this is simply not true, and I'm not a Kobe Groupie by any stretch. When this dude is playing "within the system" there's simply no one better to watch, because he can pick you apart both driving (scoring and dishing), or coming off screens for the long 3.

I think his problem is subconsiously(sp), he starts getting a feeling that the coaching staff is trying to steal or limit his "shine", so he goes into panick mode, and starts making dumb offensive decisions (MJ went through this a bit during his first championship run in '91)

If Kobe can just blank out all of the nonsense in his head, face his limitations (yes KB fans, he has some), and play within the system, it's a wrap. And to think he came so close this year with a busted, relatively new line-up:eek:

[cliffhagan]

But seriously. Have you looked at Kareems stats/accomplishments/rings/etc. I don't see how you came about rankings him behind those guys. You're being cool about it so I won't insult you but COME ON!

Ok Ok. D-Rob probably shouldn't be above Kareem. But my (blind) reasoning was this:

*I definitely consider Dream above Kareem. Dream was 1000x better defensively than Kareem. Kareem has gaudy defensive #'s, but he was a subpar defender IMO.
*The Admiral was one of Dream's peers and in some cases better than Dream.

Now that I really have pondered it, Kareem > Admiral due to longevity.

My main knock on Kareem, whether valid or not, is that Magic extended his career. Kareem had many successful seasons well beyond any normal player should have, but I mean really. A 7 foot skeleton could have averaged double figures (although Kareem did more) with Magic giving them the ball and Big Game James flanking him. Know what I'm saying?

Anyway, I'm going to really review my rankings. My rankings were done over a year ago and my ranking philosophies have changed a bit.

Like Kobe. He's probably gonna go down on the list. To me, he might be the most INDIVIDUALLY talented / skilled player ever. I mean, he's insane. But the fact that his NBA Live ratings would be:
Scoring: 99
Amazingness: 99
Kill Everyone Take Over Mentality: 99
Getting others involved: 99 +/- 99
Teammate Rating: -1000
Leading by example: uh...

...means he's going down in my book.

But Bob Pettit? The dude owned Bill Russell on more than one occasion. I consider Bill Russell #2 behind Wilt all-time for bigs, so that's not bad.

And I have to admit I have a secret man crush on Dr. J. But Dr. J is so vastly underappreciated, IMO. Maybe not underrated, but definitely underappreciated. I mean combined NBA / ABA stats he had like 30K points, 10K boards, 5K assists and 2K steals and almost 2K blocks (and that's only because they didn't keep track his rookie season) in like 1240 games. I mean, that's pretty impressive. Probably the only guy to have those numbers.


The reason why I'm cool about it because I love hearing others' opinions, especially when there's actual thought and logic put into them. And I mean there will never be a 100% consensus about rankings, so I think that varying arguments can be valid depending on criteria and perspective. So I don't mind if you guys think I'm insane. :lol:

[D-Fence]

People need to stop ranking Bird over Russell. There are plenty of bad rankings, but this one just stands out because of the Celtics. Take Auerbach's word on this one, Russell was greater.

[EricForman]

But it's not about who would be the best today or who would make a team in 2008, it's what they did in their time.

It's kind of like the Beatles or Sly and the Family Stone. Would those bands be top selling artist in 2008, no because that's not what is popular now, but are they still great, of course.


I like your basketball point.

But please do not compare the Beatles in a negative favor to today's music.

Beatles **** on everything today. Nothing today is close.

[cliffhagan]

Yeah, I'd update your list. I kind of agree with some of those re-rankings, but others seem ridiculous. Hagan isn't over Fulks. I guess Hagan might be a favorite of yours, but he's still only a 2-time 2nd Teamer and Fulks had three seasons of being one of the two best pro basketball players. 15+ spots would take Fulks off the list, and you suggest he could be replaced by guys he outperformed in his own time and other old-timers who came shortly after him--Mikkelsen, Gallatin, etc.

You'd have to really rate durability high to put Sikma and Macauley over Walton.

I don't think Pete Maravich was ranked low enough. I pushed to put him low on the list. If I'm counting right, you want his short career of no-D flash over Walton and several other winners and team players. I disagree with that.


First let me say that I'm a big Fulks fan. The reason (well one of a few) I'd take Hagan anyday over Fulks is playoff performance. I mean, Joe's teams didn't even make the playoffs any of the years that he was lighting up the nets. And the few times they did, he sucked. :lol: Hagan always stepped it up in big games. They beat Bill Russell and the Celtics. I don't care when that happened; if you can say that, your team was freaking good.

And I don't know that I would put Vern and Harry above Joe; I was just putting them as "fringe" type players.


Easy Ed gets the nod for me over Walton, but not by much. But (I really like to start sentences with conjuctions, in case you didn't notice) the fact that was he was traded for Bill Russell means he was pretty dang good.

Sikma also isn't very far ahead of Walton.

Warning: I'm a Jazz fan. Somewhat bias towards Pete. But I mean c'mon. Who played D in the 70s? Lol. Ok, there were a few, but I don't think he was atrocious. Not Steve Nash levels at least. But the things he could do with the ball were just amazing. I mean, how is Steve Nash ahead of him? Pistol's 1000x better than Nash.

[cliffhagan]

Having watched more of Kobe this passed season, I have to say this is simply not true, and I'm not a Kobe Groupie by any stretch. When this dude is playing "within the system" there's simply no one better to watch, because he can pick you apart both driving (scoring and dishing), or coming off screens for the long 3.

I think his problem is subconsiously(sp), he starts getting a feeling that the coaching staff is trying to steal or limit his "shine", so he goes into panick mode, and starts making dumb offensive decisions (MJ went through this a bit during his first championship run in '91)

If Kobe can just blank out all of the nonsense in his head, face his limitations (yes KB fans, he has some), and play within the system, it's a wrap. And to think he came so close this year with a busted, relatively new line-up:eek:

Oh don't get me wrong. I agree with you. And that's just my point with Kobe. Why is it just mental? He has the ability, but chooses not to.

My Kobe man crush is diminishing...who's next for me?

[VCMVP1551]

That being said, I'd probably still pick these guys over Kareem (not in order):



David Robinson
Bob Pettit
Julius Erving
Kobe Bryant
Oscar Robertson

Please try to make a case for those players over Kareem and I'll destroy it.

[Psileas]

My main knock on Kareem, whether valid or not, is that Magic extended his career. Kareem had many successful seasons well beyond any normal player should have, but I mean really. A 7 foot skeleton could have averaged double figures (although Kareem did more) with Magic giving them the ball and Big Game James flanking him. Know what I'm saying?

On the other hand though, playing for the deepest team of the championship will hurt your productivity. Honestly, I believe that all the other players of the Lakers were benefitted more by Magic's passing. Kareem didn't need a PG of Magic's caliber to take his sky hook. Neither was he the guy who was finishing most of Magic's fastbreaks in the 1983-89 period (Worthy and Scott were). Neither was he the receiver of most of his "laser-beam-among-multiple-opponents" passes.
After all, Magic missed more than half the 1981 season, with Kareem being close to 34. This didn't hurt his productivity.

[VCMVP1551]

On the other hand though, playing for the deepest team of the championship will hurt your productivity. Honestly, I believe that all the other players of the Lakers were benefitted more by Magic's passing. Kareem didn't need a PG of Magic's caliber to take his sky hook. Neither was he the guy who was finishing most of Magic's fastbreaks in the 1983-89 period (Worthy and Scott were). Neither was he the receiver of most of his "laser-beam-among-multiple-opponents" passes.
After all, Magic missed more than half the 1981 season, with Kareem being close to 34. This didn't hurt his productivity.

100% right. Post players need great PG less anyway because they usually create their own shots by posting up. Kareem's career was extended because he stayed in excellent shape, played a finesse game not a power game so he didn't take the same pounding and his game was based on skill not athleticism. His passing skills, footwork and skyhook remained with him and that was enough to be an effective player in his late 30's/early 40's.

[cliffhagan]

Please try to make a case for those players over Kareem and I'll destroy it.

They all are ahead of Kareem in the all-time points list...

[Psileas]

But Bob Pettit? The dude owned Bill Russell on more than one occasion. I consider Bill Russell #2 behind Wilt all-time for bigs, so that's not bad.

Kareem owned Wilt (OK, old Wilt, but still an MVP candidate) more than once as well. After 1985, the 37+ year old Kareem also owned young Hakeem more than once.

[VCMVP1551]

They all are ahead of Kareem in the all-time points list...

Obviously you're joking meaning you can't make a case and just hate Kareem for some reason.

[Dasher]

They all are ahead of Kareem in the all-time points list...
Kareem is the all-time points leader.

[RainierBeachPoet]

*I definitely consider Dream above Kareem. Dream was 1000x better defensively than Kareem. Kareem has gaudy defensive #'s, but he was a subpar defender IMO.


Now that I really have pondered it, Kareem > Admiral due to longevity.

My main knock on Kareem, whether valid or not, is that Magic extended his career. Kareem had many successful seasons well beyond any normal player should have, but I mean really. A 7 foot skeleton could have averaged double figures (although Kareem did more) with Magic giving them the ball and Big Game James flanking him. Know what I'm saying?

Anyway, I'm going to really review my rankings. My rankings were done over a year ago and my ranking philosophies have changed a bit.



But Bob Pettit? The dude owned Bill Russell on more than one occasion. I consider Bill Russell #2 behind Wilt all-time for bigs, so that's not bad.

And I have to admit I have a secret man crush on Dr. J. But Dr. J is so vastly underappreciated, IMO. Maybe not underrated, but definitely underappreciated. I mean combined NBA / ABA stats he had like 30K points, 10K boards, 5K assists and 2K steals and almost 2K blocks (and that's only because they didn't keep track his rookie season) in like 1240 games. I mean, that's pretty impressive. Probably the only guy to have those numbers.


The reason why I'm cool about it because I love hearing others' opinions, especially when there's actual thought and logic put into them. And I mean there will never be a 100% consensus about rankings, so I think that varying arguments can be valid depending on criteria and perspective. So I don't mind if you guys think I'm insane. :lol:

kaj is actually one of the best defensive players in nba history. just by looking at the defensive teams over the years, there is no one who has more selections than kareem, duncan and bobby jones at 11 (hakeem has nine). in the 70s, kareem was simply a dominant defensive force

guys shouldnt be penalized for playing with other good players. greatness is never really accomplished individually-- it is always done within the team context. some teams were just more complete, unified and well rounded than others. guys should not be penalized for being part of good teams. or else it would be very difficult (and untimately vacuous) to even individually talk about russell, wilt, bird and magic. in fact, what makes the great players-- how they added to the success of the team that they were on

i havent seen pettit but i suspect he is rated lower because of our limited access to actually seeing him

i do agree with your dr j assessment. he was feared and people were in awe of his game and his most exciting years were in the aba

[D-Fence]

First let me say that I'm a big Fulks fan. The reason (well one of a few) I'd take Hagan anyday over Fulks is playoff performance. I mean, Joe's teams didn't even make the playoffs any of the years that he was lighting up the nets. And the few times they did, he sucked. :lol: Hagan always stepped it up in big games. They beat Bill Russell and the Celtics. I don't care when that happened; if you can say that, your team was freaking good.I think you're mistaken. Fulks best seasons were the first three seasons of the league (1947 to 1949). In those seasons, his Warriors made the Playoffs each season, the Finals in 1947 and 1948, and they won the league's first championship--back when it was the BAA and not the NBA. If they had a Finals MVP back then, Fulks probably would have been it even the year they lost. He averaged 26.2 PPG and 23.5 PPG in those two Finals. Games of 37 and 34 points--scoring that was way above everyone else in the dead-ball era. Nobody but Mikan was better than Fulks then, and Mikan didn't switch leagues until '49.

Fulks scored 63 points in a game when his team averaged fewer than 84 PPG and no team in the league averaged as high as 85 PPG. Nobody topped that until Elgin Baylor a decade later, with a shot clock.

After that, Fulks was less sensational. He had some seasons as a role player. And, only in Fulks' last 2 seasons, one of which he spent mostly on the bench, did he not make the Playoffs. Still, Fulks averaged more PPG during a season than teammate Paul Arizin. The Warriors didn't make the Playoffs those 2 seasons largely because they lost Arizin to military service.

Hagan was good, but he wasn't that good--not the kind of dominance Fulks had for 3 seasons. And, by the way, the season Pettit, Hagan and the Hawks beat the Celtics also happened to be when Bill Russell fractured his ankle, causing him to miss two complete games and part of two more. I don't know if they win otherwise... they didn't the other seasons. They still had problems putting away the Celtics minus healthy Russell.


As to Nash and Maravich. Not much difference defensively. But, I'd say Nash has been more of a team player. He doesn't just pass for the assist and play flashy for the sake of his own glory. And, Nash doesn't hesitate to sacrifice his own scoring. I think that's reflected in his higher honors (MVPs deserved or not) and more wins.


That aside, it's nice to see someone claim to be a "big Fulks fan," and have an ancient player's name as their user name. And, this is nicely said:
The reason why I'm cool about it because I love hearing others' opinions, especially when there's actual thought and logic put into them. And I mean there will never be a 100% consensus about rankings, so I think that varying arguments can be valid depending on criteria and perspective. So I don't mind if you guys think I'm insane.But, still, I'd update that list.

[cliffhagan]

I think you're mistaken. Fulks best seasons were the first three seasons of the league (1947 to 1949). In those seasons, his Warriors made the Playoffs each season, the Finals in 1947 and 1948, and they won the league's first championship--back when it was the BAA and not the NBA. If they had a Finals MVP back then, Fulks probably would have been it even the year they lost. He averaged 26.2 PPG and 23.5 PPG in those two Finals. Games of 37 and 34 points--scoring that was way above everyone else in the dead-ball era. Nobody but Mikan was better than Fulks then, and Mikan didn't switch leagues until '49.

Fulks scored 63 points in a game when his team averaged fewer than 84 PPG and no team in the league averaged as high as 85 PPG. Nobody topped that until Elgin Baylor a decade later, with a shot clock.

After that, Fulks was less sensational. He had some seasons as a role player. And, only in Fulks' last 2 seasons, one of which he spent mostly on the bench, did he not make the Playoffs. Still, Fulks averaged more PPG during a season than teammate Paul Arizin. The Warriors didn't make the Playoffs those 2 seasons largely because they lost Arizin to military service.

Hagan was good, but he wasn't that good--not the kind of dominance Fulks had for 3 seasons. And, by the way, the season Pettit, Hagan and the Hawks beat the Celtics also happened to be when Bill Russell fractured his ankle, causing him to miss two complete games and part of two more. I don't know if they win otherwise... they didn't the other seasons. They still had problems putting away the Celtics minus healthy Russell.


As to Nash and Maravich. Not much difference defensively. But, I'd say Nash has been more of a team player. He doesn't just pass for the assist and play flashy for the sake of his own glory. And, Nash doesn't hesitate to sacrifice his own scoring. I think that's reflected in his higher honors (MVPs deserved or not) and more wins.


That aside, it's nice to see someone claim to be a "big Fulks fan," and have an ancient player's name as their user name. And, this is nicely said:But, still, I'd update that list.

Yeah, you make some good points. I had a moment of mental dyslexia in that I meant to say that his teams didn't really fair particularly well in the playoffs (along with his production decreasing), but your right about the BAA success.

I guess I'm just more about all-around vs. lights out scorer. HAGAN OWNS!!!! j/k I wish I had more time to hop on here and write stuff. I like this board. Lots of knowledgable guys...

Man I'm gonna ponder more of this stuff in between the 3 meetings I have this afternoon. Man I hate work. I wish someone would hire me to just ponder and study NBA stuff all day long. :lol:

[BIZARRO]

OK, a year ago the greatest threads in ISH history was started. We went through 100 plus days figuring out who were the best. Now a years later, looking back at the list, what would y'all change? Which legend is too high or too low, which current player moved up and which current player was too high to begin with?

Here is the list ...



ISH 100 Greatest NBA Players of All-Time
1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Earvin 'Magic' Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Tim Duncan
11. Jerry West
12. Julius Erving
13. Moses Malone
14. Elgin Baylor
15. Bob Pettit
16. John Havlicek
17. Karl Malone
18. George Mikan
19. David Robinson
20. Isiah Thomas
21. Charles Barkley
22. John Stockton
23. Bob Cousy
24. Kobe Bryant
25. Rick Barry
26. Scottie Pippen
27. Clyde Drexler
28. Gary Payton
29. Willis Reed
30. Patrick Ewing
31. Allen Iverson
32. Walt Frazier
33. Elvin Hayes
34. George Gervin
35. Jason Kidd
36. Dave Cowens
37. Kevin Garnett
38. Bob McAdoo
39. Nate Thurmond
40. Wes Unseld
41. Kevin McHale
42. Dolph Schayes
43. Dominique Wilkins
44. Bill Walton
45. Sam Jones
46. Kevin Johnson
47. Dennis Rodman
48. Dirk Nowitzki
49. Steve Nash
50. Billy Cunningham
-----
51. Nate 'Tiny' Archibald
52. 'Pistol' Pete Maravich
53. Tracy McGrady
54. Hal Greer
55. Jerry Lucas
56. Robert Parish
57. Earl 'the Pearl' Monroe
58. Bernard King
59. Artis Gilmore
60. Alex English
61. James Worthy
62. Joe Dumars
63. Bill Sharman
64. Reggie Miller
65. Paul Arizin
66. Sidney Moncrief
67. Dave DeBusschere
68. Dave Bing
69. David Thompson
70. Lenny Wilkens
71. Adrian Dantley
72. Bob Lanier
73. Neil Johntson
74. Walt Bellamy
75. Vince Carter
76. Spencer Haywood
77. Ray Allen
78. Dennis Johnson
79. Paul Pierce
80. Dikembe Mutombo
81. Connie Hawkins
82. Chris Webber
83. Chris Mullin
84. Grant Hill
85. Mitch Richmond
86. Dan Issel
87. 'Jumpin' Joe Fulks
88. Alonzo Mourning
89. Shawn Kemp
90. Mark Price
91. Anfernee 'Penny' Hardaway
92. Tommy Heinsohn
93. George McGinnis
94. Tim Hardaway
95. Mel Daniels
96. Bob Davies
97. Tom Chambers
98. Maurice Cheeks
99. Ben Wallace
100. Mark Aguirre


The ridiculous ISH overrating of Jason Kidd continues....

There is no universe where Kidd is as good as Garnett, McAdoo, McHale, Dominique, Dirk, McGrady, Bernard King, and James Worthy.

Every single one of these players is easily superior to him.

[-primetime-]

we gotta do this again this off season

after the draft talk has cooled down

[Remix]

I think Webber should be higher...

[LBJ 4 MVP]

we gotta do this again this off season

after the draft talk has cooled down
I'll run it if enough people want to do it.

[mrpuente]

got my vote to do it again

[~LA's fine$t~]

I'll run it if enough people want to do it.

It'll be more interesting to see top 50 players of the past season, to be honest.

[L.Kizzle]

we gotta do this again this off season

after the draft talk has cooled down
Let's go, although I'll be damned if I'm startin' the threads again

[Glove_20]

All I have to say is KJ = underrated. Though he's gotten more respect than usual here.

On the other hand, AI = Overrated bigtime.

[momo]

I'd move garbage like Cousy, Pettit and Mikan down to 70-80. Either that, or just completely take them off the list.

Move Bryant up to the 10-14 range, and way ahead of West, since he wouldn't be any good today, choked in the Finals, and rode Wilt's coattails to a few titles.

Robertson is nowhere near the top 10. If people knocked Garnett for never winning a title before this year, then you do the same for Robertson for riding a top 3 center's coattails to his only and undeserved championship. He was a useless role player at that time. Garnett's stats may be the greatest we've ever seen from a PF.

This list proves why Bill Russell may be the most overrated athlete in the history of American sports. What has he done to deserve a spot ahead of Shaq? Russell might be lucky to have 1/2 of Miami Shaq's impact if he played today. We're going rank a player who led his team to a 3-peat while averaging the absolute greatest Finals stats for a C in NBA history over an offensively challenged, one-dimensional Bill Russell? Not a chance. Shaq should be around 5-6. Move Russell down to 18-20.

Much of that is just silly and myopic. And calling Jerry West a choker is just trolling. Factoring modern players skill and athleticism is a good policy, but if we are going solely on that we can just take anyone who played before the 70s off the list. Stupid. :hammerhead:

Greatness has to count for something.
http://hoopedia.nba.com/images/c/cf/MikanVsKnicks.jpg

Factoring changes in the game has to count. At one point the jump shot was not yet invented... at another point players trying to dunk were guaranteed to be intentionally clotheslined and probably injured. Shot clock?


I am fine with the most of the list while it is still in the obvious greats stage... shuffle a guy up a few spots or down maybe, but it all comes out in the wash. It starts to get nutty late... probably due to lack of exposure for some players and "modern bias" for lack of a better word. Bob Dandridge should be on, the Sidney Moncrief/Benard King type guys are short changed.
Probably Kevin McHale and George Girvin too.

I think superstar role players like Michael Cooper should get some dap, especially when you have guys like Penny Hardaway on :D

[LBJ 4 MVP]

It'll be more interesting to see top 50 players of the past season, to be honest.
We already did top 20...

[Low End Theory]

All I have to say is KJ = underrated. Though he's gotten more respect than usual here.

On the other hand, AI = Overrated bigtime.

Where would you put each of them?

[haji_d_robertas]

I like the list. It's democratic. People can whine all they want, but the votes count at the end of the day.

[L.Kizzle]

All I have to say is KJ = underrated. Though he's gotten more respect than usual here.

On the other hand, AI = Overrated bigtime.
Glove as I said, KJ was one of my favs in the '90s, but you overrated him greatly. I think you started voting for him at 29, TWENTY-NINE. Than you said he was a top 40 player all-time, I believe and this was last year. So if he was top 40 in 2007, then when the NBA 50 was picked, he would be basically a top 30 player all-time ...

[Glove_20]

Glove as I said, KJ was one of my favs in the '90s, but you overrated him greatly. I think you started voting for him at 29, TWENTY-NINE. Than you said he was a top 40 player all-time, I believe and this was last year. So if he was top 40 in 2007, then when the NBA 50 was picked, he would be basically a top 30 player all-time ...

How do I overrate him? The things he has done/did only legends have done. I don't put him at 29th or anything, thats GMAT. I say Top 40. Mid to high 30s.

[d_white089]

Dirk wouldn't make my top 200 of all time? 48???? I donno if he's in the top 48 active players...

[L.Kizzle]

How do I overrate him? The things he has done/did only legends have done. I don't put him at 29th or anything, thats GMAT. I say Top 40. Mid to high 30s.
You rank him top 40 All-Time right now, in 2008?

[Glove_20]

You rank him top 40 All-Time right now, in 2008?

For sure

[L.Kizzle]

For sure
You do realize if you consider him top 40 All-Time now (2008) than 10+ years ago around NBA at 50 time (1996) he would have been considered top 30 All-Time (when you consider in the past 10+ years or so 10 or so player have surpassed him like Duncan/Kobe/KG/ect.)

That's pretty damn high if you ask me?

[Glove_20]

You do realize if you consider him top 40 All-Time now (2008) than 10+ years ago around NBA at 50 time (1996) he would have been considered top 30 All-Time (when you consider in the past 10+ years or so 10 or so player have surpassed him like Duncan/Kobe/KG/ect.)

That's pretty damn high if you ask me?

Who cares what he would've been 10 years ago? Karl Malone was a Top 10 player 10 years ago. Shaq or Duncan weren't even close to Top 10. Things change big time. He's the most underrated player afterall.

[statman32]

Who cares what he would've been 10 years ago? Karl Malone was a Top 10 player 10 years ago. Shaq or Duncan weren't even close to Top 10. Things change big time. He's the most underrated player afterall.
Since 96 who has shown that they are higher up than KJ on the greatest players of all time list?

[Glove_20]

Since 96 who has shown that they are higher up than KJ on the greatest players of all time list?
Gary Payton
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
KG
Arguably Kidd

[L.Kizzle]

Gary Payton
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
KG
Arguably Kidd
Iverson
Nash
Dirk

Then you could argue some others like
Webber
McGrady
ect.

[Glove_20]

Iverson
Nash
Dirk

Then you could argue some others like
Webber
McGrady
ect.

You did not just say Nash has passed Kevin Johnson. Or Iverson. KJ has played at a high level just as long as Nash. And Iverson? He was no where near the individual player as KJ. Nowhere near. It's like the difference between Arenas and Kobe.

[statman32]

Gary Payton
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
KG
Arguably Kidd
So you though he was the 34th best player of all time in 96?

[Glove_20]

So you though he was the 34th best player of all time in 96?
Sure

[L.Kizzle]

Was KJ every a top ten player in the league in any season he played? Maybe once or twice, but that doesn't get you a top 30-40 All-Time ranking.

When KJ was playing, he was in that second tier of stars that included the likes of Tim Hardaway, Mitch Richmond, Chris Mullin ect, (lol Rum-TMC, no pun intended) which is not a bad group at all. Hell, some considered those guys to be better than KJ, and no one ranks them even top 60, so why would KJ be ranked 20-30 plus spots higher then his comp?

[Glove_20]

Was KJ every a top ten player in the league in any season he played? Maybe once or twice, but that doesn't get you a top 30-40 All-Time ranking.

When KJ was playing, he was in that second tier of stars that included the likes of Tim Hardaway, Mitch Richmond, Chris Mullin ect, (lol Rum-TMC, no pun intended) which is not a bad group at all. Hell, some considered those guys to be better than KJ, and no one ranks them even top 60, so why would KJ be ranked 20-30 plus spots higher then his comp?

There were comparisons of Magic and KJ. There were comparisons of Isiah and KJ as well. During KJ's peak he was actually better than Isiah despite Isiah winning 2 titles during that period. But yeah, many articles were written comparing Magic and KJ. Not saying he was as good though.

No one compared Richmond to Jordan, or Hardaway to Magic.




And plus, KJ played in the "golden era" of basketball. Magic, Bird, Jordan, all these great players. It was a very tough era, Magic/MJ had the 1st team locked.

[L.Kizzle]

There were comparisons of Magic and KJ. There were comparisons of Isiah and KJ as well. During KJ's peak he was actually better than Isiah despite Isiah winning 2 titles during that period. But yeah, many articles were written comparing Magic and KJ. Not saying he was as good though.

No one compared Richmond to Jordan, or Hardaway to Magic.




And plus, KJ played in the "golden era" of basketball. Magic, Bird, Jordan, all these great players. It was a very tough era, Magic/MJ had the 1st team locked.
Richmond was compared to Jordan, Timmy to Magic and Mullin to Bird. The compare a lot of players to past players, doesn't mean anything. They compared Zo to Russell a ton back then, does that make Zo a top 30 player all-time, hell no.


KJ played in the same era as Mitch/Tim/Mullin also (ll three played in the Golden era also.) I know it was a tough era, but Zeke, Clyde and Stock managed to squeeze a few first teams in their. Hell, KJ spent most of his years making the 2nd teams with Mitch Richmond. Tim Hardaway also made a first team as a guard, something KJ couldn't do.

[Doomsday Dallas]

OK, a year ago the greatest threads in ISH history was started. We went through 100 plus days figuring out who were the best. Now a years later, looking back at the list, what would y'all change? Which legend is too high or too low, which current player moved up and which current player was too high to begin with?

Here is the list ...



ISH 100 Greatest NBA Players of All-Time
1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Earvin 'Magic' Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Tim Duncan
11. Jerry West
12. Julius Erving
13. Moses Malone
14. Elgin Baylor
15. Bob Pettit
16. John Havlicek
17. Karl Malone
18. George Mikan
19. David Robinson
20. Isiah Thomas
21. Charles Barkley
22. John Stockton
23. Bob Cousy
24. Kobe Bryant
25. Rick Barry
26. Scottie Pippen
27. Clyde Drexler
28. Gary Payton
29. Willis Reed
30. Patrick Ewing
31. Allen Iverson
32. Walt Frazier
33. Elvin Hayes
34. George Gervin
35. Jason Kidd
36. Dave Cowens
37. Kevin Garnett
38. Bob McAdoo
39. Nate Thurmond
40. Wes Unseld
41. Kevin McHale
42. Dolph Schayes
43. Dominique Wilkins
44. Bill Walton
45. Sam Jones
46. Kevin Johnson
47. Dennis Rodman
48. Dirk Nowitzki
49. Steve Nash
50. Billy Cunningham
-----
51. Nate 'Tiny' Archibald
52. 'Pistol' Pete Maravich
53. Tracy McGrady
54. Hal Greer
55. Jerry Lucas
56. Robert Parish
57. Earl 'the Pearl' Monroe
58. Bernard King
59. Artis Gilmore
60. Alex English
61. James Worthy
62. Joe Dumars
63. Bill Sharman
64. Reggie Miller
65. Paul Arizin
66. Sidney Moncrief
67. Dave DeBusschere
68. Dave Bing
69. David Thompson
70. Lenny Wilkens
71. Adrian Dantley
72. Bob Lanier
73. Neil Johntson
74. Walt Bellamy
75. Vince Carter
76. Spencer Haywood
77. Ray Allen
78. Dennis Johnson
79. Paul Pierce
80. Dikembe Mutombo
81. Connie Hawkins
82. Chris Webber
83. Chris Mullin
84. Grant Hill
85. Mitch Richmond
86. Dan Issel
87. 'Jumpin' Joe Fulks
88. Alonzo Mourning
89. Shawn Kemp
90. Mark Price
91. Anfernee 'Penny' Hardaway
92. Tommy Heinsohn
93. George McGinnis
94. Tim Hardaway
95. Mel Daniels
96. Bob Davies
97. Tom Chambers
98. Maurice Cheeks
99. Ben Wallace
100. Mark Aguirre


Uhhmm... maybe I've had a few too many drinks, but where the f*ck is Lebron James?

He automatically makes the top 100.

Put him at #100 and figure it ut from there if you have to, but he is in the top 100.

If Lebron James never played a game again... he should still make the list.
(or maybe I missed a set of rules or something)

[D-Fence]

Uhhmm... maybe I've had a few too many drinks, but where the f*ck is Lebron James?

He automatically makes the top 100.

Put him at #100 and figure it ut from there if you have to, but he is in the top 100.

If Lebron James never played a game again... he should still make the list.
(or maybe I missed a set of rules or something)A rule on minimum seasons was arranged just to eliminate the debate on ranking James and Wade. It wasn't clearly stated, though, and led to reoccurring confusion.

[otmtheshank]

I pretty much have the same stance as I did a year ago. Moncrief should be considerably higher...at the least above Dumars. DJ should be above Dumars as well. I'm not sure if I said this last year, but Tim Hardaway should be a little higher; he's certainly comparable if not equal to a number of guards on the list. Of current players, VC and KG are the only ones I find underrated. Then of course, there's the massive amount of pre-merger legends that D-Fence was lobbying to get in, that probably should be in. I'm still disappointed that Sharman got in ahead of Arizin. I remember that round, and it just came out of the blue without anyone giving a reason as to Sharman>Arizin. Lastly, Wes should be lower, Thurmond should be higher, Bobby Jones should fill Penny's spot, and Reggie Miller should be completely off the list without an honourable mention.

[L.Kizzle]

Richmond was compared to Jordan, Timmy to Magic and Mullin to Bird. The compare a lot of players to past players, doesn't mean anything. They compared Zo to Russell a ton back then, does that make Zo a top 30 player all-time, hell no.


KJ played in the same era as Mitch/Tim/Mullin also (ll three played in the Golden era also.) I know it was a tough era, but Zeke, Clyde and Stock managed to squeeze a few first teams in their. Hell, KJ spent most of his years making the 2nd teams with Mitch Richmond. Tim Hardaway also made a first team as a guard, something KJ couldn't do.
BUMP for Glove_20

[YAWN]

kg, malone, kobe, dumars, pierce should be higher.
carter, dirk, nash are too high.

[72-10]

I must say... this is quite a well made list. Looks very similar to mine

Jordan
Abdul-Jabbar
Russell
Chamberlain
Johnson
Bird
Robertson
West
O'Neal
Erving

is how I roll. Dr. J is too low. He was too important and influential to basketball to be left out of the top 10.

[brandonislegend]

magic = 1a
jordan = 1b

[72-10]

magic = 1a
jordan = 1b

What would even put Magic close to Jordan's level? He accomplished about half of what Jordan did.. with considerably more help throughout his career than Jordan had. Magic wasn't much of a defender, never even made an All-Defensive 2nd team. They have the same initials, that's about where the comparison should end.

[ForceOfNature]

Kobe should be higher, he has vaulted into the top 20 of all time now. Garnett should also be higher.

KJ should be lower, and Ben Wallace making the list has made me sick from day one.

To make it clearer:

Who should be higher (ALL because of this past season, Webber because of the LA-Sacramento fix):
- Kobe Bryant
- Kevin Garnett
- Paul Pierce
- Chris Webber

Also should be higher, but not necessarily because of the past year:

- Tim Hardaway

Who should be lower:
- Kevin Johnson
- Ben Wallace
- John Havlicek
- Isiah Thomas
- Dirk Nowitzki
- Dave Cowens

I said it last year, and I'll say it again - It's amazing that Glen Rice is not on this list.

[72-10]

Kobe should be higher, he has vaulted into the top 20 of all time now. Garnett should also be higher.

With the way he performed in the Finals? Disagree. I fail to see what he's accomplished that surpasses those names in front of him. Still has not led a team to a championship despite gaining a very strong supporting cast this year and a Hall of Fame coaching staff (albeit a bit overrated). Kobe needs a ring to move up.

Garnett could stand to rise a little now, although he really didn't show up much in the Finals.



KJ should be lower, and Ben Wallace making the list has made me sick from day one.

Agreed.

BTW Glen Rice should be on the list definitely, as should Bobby Jones.

[Psileas]

What would even put Magic close to Jordan's level? He accomplished about half of what Jordan did.. with considerably more help throughout his career than Jordan had. Magic wasn't much of a defender, never even made an All-Defensive 2nd team. They have the same initials, that's about where the comparison should end.

3 MVP's, 3 Finals' MVP's, 5 rings and 4 more finals' appearances, 2 ASG MVP's, with stats like 138 regular season and 30 playoff triple doubles and multiple assists' and steals' titles are certainly more than "half" the things Jordan accomplished. He did have more help, but he was still his team's best player in 1982-91. And in Jordan's era, there was no Larry Bird and Boston Celtics and there wouldn't be even if Jordan was absent-I don't think any player would lead his team to more than 2 titles (which is the maximum I think either Hakeem, Malone or K.Ewing would win), even with Jordan absent.

[72-10]

3 MVP's, 3 Finals' MVP's, 5 rings and 4 more finals' appearances, 2 ASG MVP's, with stats like 138 regular season and 30 playoff triple doubles and multiple assists' and steals' titles are certainly more than "half" the things Jordan accomplished. He did have more help, but he was still his team's best player in 1982-91. And in Jordan's era, there was no Larry Bird and Boston Celtics and there wouldn't be even if Jordan was absent-I don't think any player would lead his team to more than 2 titles (which is the maximum I think either Hakeem, Malone or K.Ewing would win), even with Jordan absent.

No... it is very impressive of course but it really is about HALF of what Jordan accomplished, although it was probably slightly tougher competition for some of these awards during Magic's career vs. MJ's career. Jordan had to deal with Bird and the Celtics throughout the 80s not to mention the Bad Boyz from Detroit. The East was actually much stronger than the West during the 80s.

Most to the point though, Magic was no great shakes on defense. Never made a defensive team.

[Psileas]

No... it is very impressive of course but it really is about HALF of what Jordan accomplished, although it was probably slightly tougher competition for some of these awards during Magic's career vs. MJ's career. Jordan had to deal with Bird and the Celtics throughout the 80s not to mention the Bad Boyz from Detroit. The East was actually much stronger than the West during the 80s.

Most to the point though, Magic was no great shakes on defense. Never made a defensive team.

Double Magic's numbers and accolades and you'll get more than Jordan accomplished. Only if you consider MVP's/Finals' MVP's is Magic only at 50% (55% to be exact) of Jordan. But Jordan doesn't have 10 titles or 18 Finals' appearances, neither double Magic's stats.
Magic wasn't a great individual defender, but he was very active in the team defense sector. Plus, he was the greatest rebounder ever to play in the position-and I mention this because rebounding is always a forgotten aspect, since it doesn't belong clearly in defense or offense.
The same players and teams Jordan faced in the first rounds, Magic did as well: Bird and the Celtics, he did, Isiah and the Pistons, he did.

[72-10]

Double Magic's numbers and accolades and you'll get more than Jordan accomplished. Only if you consider MVP's/Finals' MVP's is Magic only at 50% (55% to be exact) of Jordan. But Jordan doesn't have 10 titles or 18 Finals' appearances, neither double Magic's stats.
Magic wasn't a great individual defender, but he was very active in the team defense sector. Plus, he was the greatest rebounder ever to play in the position-and I mention this because rebounding is always a forgotten aspect, since it doesn't belong clearly in defense or offense.
The same players and teams Jordan faced in the first rounds, Magic did as well: Bird and the Celtics, he did, Isiah and the Pistons, he did.

*5 MVPs (should have been 7; 1997 and 1990)
*6 Finals MVPs/6 rings
*3 All-Star Game MVPs (was not awarded MVP when he recorded the only triple double in All-Star history, and yes he played on the winning team)
*Rookie of the Year
*Defensive Player of the Year
*10 times All-NBA First Team
*9 times All-Defensive First Team
*10 scoring titles, led the league in points 11 times, 3 steals titles, finished in the top ten in the league in assists one season
*Holder of 70-some NBA records

So yeah, it's about half. And I know I'm missing stuff. More of everything.

Finals appearances do not matter, especially when the Lakers were playing in a much easier West. There was not a single team the likes of the Celtics or the Pistons at that time. Jordan's Bulls played in a division that nearly had five 50-win teams some seasons. Winning it all is what matters.

Magic had so much more help during his career it's ridiculous. First of all, a HOF coach for the vast majority of his career, Pat Riley. Several HOFers playing alongside him. Kareem, James Worthy. Michael Cooper was pretty valuable, A.C. Green was there every night, literally.

Jordan is nearly a tie with Magic in rebounding and I believe a bit better on the offensive glass. There were a couple seasons in which Jordan led his team in rebounding. Both the best rebounding guards along with the Big O.

You can sell the "team defense" motto somewhere else because Jordan is arguably the greatest defensive guard in the game's history. Magic never MADE even a 2nd team for defense, while Jordan SET THE RECORD for All-Defensive First Teams, set tons of records for defense, and is one of the few guards to ever win DPOY. BTW Jordan is hands down the greatest shotblocking guard in the game's history, and over the course of his career established himself as arguably the greatest ballthief in the game's history.

[Carbine]

I'm with 72-10 on this one. I believe Michael should be viewed as the best perimeter player to ever play the game. He's not easily the GOAT perimeter player, but there is a noticeable gap.

[72-10]

Fair enough, Magic accomplished 60% of Jordan's accomplishments.:rolleyes:

It's so much easier to say half.

[Psileas]

*5 MVPs (should have been 7; 1997 and 1990)

And Magic could very well have 4 (the ones he did, along with 1982).


*3 All-Star Game MVPs (was not awarded MVP when he recorded the only triple double in All-Star history, and yes he played on the winning team)

Magic won 2, without winning it in 1985, although he had 21 pts, 5 rebs, 15 assists in 31'. He also played for the winning team.


*Rookie of the Year
*Defensive Player of the Year
*10 times All-NBA First Team
*9 times All-Defensive First Team
*10 scoring titles, led the league in points 11 times, 3 steals titles, finished in the top ten in the league in assists one season

*9 times All-NBA First Team (should be 10, along with the 1982 one).
*4 assists' titles (was top-2 in every 60+ game season he played except his rookie one), 2 steals titles, 1 FT% title, finished in the top ten in the league in FG% one season.


*Holder of 70-some NBA records

Considering some of them are records like "most 30-point playoff games", I bet Magic holds a lot of similar assists' and triple doubles' records.


Finals appearances do not matter, especially when the Lakers were playing in a much easier West. There was not a single team the likes of the Celtics or the Pistons at that time. Jordan's Bulls played in a division that nearly had five 50-win teams some seasons. Winning it all is what matters.

Finals' appearances do not matter to you because it doesn't serve you. I could similarly say that after 1991 MVP's shouldn't count because of the much easier competition compared to the 80's (prime Magic and Bird were tougher to beat than Karl Malone or Drexler), All-D teams shouldn't count because of Jordan's tremendous athletic advantages and so on...And if winning is all that matters, Magic is at 83% of Jordan (5 titles vs 6).


Magic had so much more help during his career it's ridiculous. First of all, a HOF coach for the vast majority of his career, Pat Riley. Several HOFers playing alongside him. Kareem, James Worthy. Michael Cooper was pretty valuable, A.C. Green was there every night, literally.

Yet, plenty of people consider the '96 Bulls the greatest overall team ever. They weren't shabby, anyway. We know how good Pippen was, we know how good Rodman was, how valuable Kukoc was, how valuable a shooter like Steve Kerr was and a role player Harper was. I certainly can't name a team with more weapons during their title runs (the '97 Rockets were the only ones who could raise a point, and still, behind the Big-3 (whenever they were healthy), they didn't have the role players Chicago had. And I certainly can't name a team with more weapons than most of the Lakers' own opponents in the 80's Finals.


Jordan is nearly a tie with Magic in rebounding and I believe a bit better on the offensive glass. There were a couple seasons in which Jordan led his team in rebounding. Both the best rebounding guards along with the Big O.

Using rebounding rates, Jordan was about 85% of the rebounder Magic was and no, he wasn't a better offensive rebounder either (his rate was 82.5% of what Magic's rate was). Jordan's best rate (set in 1989) was surpassed by Magic's best rates 4 times and equalled once more.


You can sell the "team defense" motto somewhere else because Jordan is arguably the greatest defensive guard in the game's history. Magic never MADE even a 2nd team for defense, while Jordan SET THE RECORD for All-Defensive First Teams, set tons of records for defense, and is one of the few guards to ever win DPOY. BTW Jordan is hands down the greatest shotblocking guard in the game's history, and over the course of his career established himself as arguably the greatest ballthief in the game's history.

What does Magic's team defense has to do with any of the rest? All-D teams are nice, but if Magic was as hyped among voters as Bird was in his early years, he'd have at least a few all-D 2nd team selections. If Bird could do so in 1982-84, I have no doubt Magic could as well.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

*5 MVPs (should have been 7; 1997 and 1990)
*6 Finals MVPs/6 rings
*3 All-Star Game MVPs (was not awarded MVP when he recorded the only triple double in All-Star history, and yes he played on the winning team)
*Rookie of the Year
*Defensive Player of the Year
*10 times All-NBA First Team
*9 times All-Defensive First Team
*10 scoring titles, led the league in points 11 times, 3 steals titles, finished in the top ten in the league in assists one season
*Holder of 70-some NBA records

So yeah, it's about half. And I know I'm missing stuff. More of everything.

Finals appearances do not matter, especially when the Lakers were playing in a much easier West. There was not a single team the likes of the Celtics or the Pistons at that time. Jordan's Bulls played in a division that nearly had five 50-win teams some seasons. Winning it all is what matters.

Magic had so much more help during his career it's ridiculous. First of all, a HOF coach for the vast majority of his career, Pat Riley. Several HOFers playing alongside him. Kareem, James Worthy. Michael Cooper was pretty valuable, A.C. Green was there every night, literally.

Jordan is nearly a tie with Magic in rebounding and I believe a bit better on the offensive glass. There were a couple seasons in which Jordan led his team in rebounding. Both the best rebounding guards along with the Big O.

You can sell the "team defense" motto somewhere else because Jordan is arguably the greatest defensive guard in the game's history. Magic never MADE even a 2nd team for defense, while Jordan SET THE RECORD for All-Defensive First Teams, set tons of records for defense, and is one of the few guards to ever win DPOY. BTW Jordan is hands down the greatest shotblocking guard in the game's history, and over the course of his career established himself as arguably the greatest ballthief in the game's history.

where do you take into account the FACT that Jordan played against weaker, diluted competition in the 90s...when he won all those accolades?

Jordan didnt win squat until the Lakers, Celtics AND Pistons were old, tired and done. He DID win a lot...after two expansions. Dont get me wrong, Jordan utterly dominated the competition in front of him. But you SHOULD take into account the times/circumstances.

[Psileas]

ΒΤW, Jordan wasn't "hands down" the greatest shot blocking guard ever. George Gervin has just as good a case, and so would Jerry West if they officially counted blocked shots in his era.

[72-10]

ΒΤW, Jordan wasn't "hands down" the greatest shot blocking guard ever. George Gervin has just as good a case, and so would Jerry West if they officially counted blocked shots in his era.

No, Jordan is hands down the greatest shot blocking guard. That's why Jordan holds all of the records for blocked shots by guards, in a season, in a career, etc. Also the first player in history to post 200 steals and 100 blocks in a season, and still the only guard to do it... and he did it twice (Jerry West might have done this, the blocks would have been the tough part). I don't know why you think West was some premium shot blocker... he was known for ballthieving not rejections. Jordan's block percentage is higher than Gervin's as well, and that's despite Gervin retiring at the age of 33 while Jordan ruined his numbers with two seasons with the Wizards.

In case you forgot, too, Magic retired at the age of 31. Do you think his numbers really took a fall at all? You need to take that into mind as well when comparing him with other players. Jordan didn't actually play that many more games than Magic, but he did play at much older ages and under more challenging physical conditions than Magic.

I read what you wrote above, you made some good points, mostly about the rebounding, but the bottom line is that Magic accomplished about 60% of what Jordan did. Magic holds some records, almost all of them are in assists. He holds maybe about 30 records total. He actually doesn't hold triple-double records... Jordan actually holds more of those. I don't see the point in continuing an argument... Jordan was clearly the greater player, as Magic himself has reiterated countless times.

[72-10]

The comment about the late 90s Bulls is rather irrelevant BTW. Jordan had a great team for a few years, Magic had great players around him his entire career. Jordan played the first half of his career on a poor team.

[72-10]

where do you take into account the FACT that Jordan played against weaker, diluted competition in the 90s...when he won all those accolades?

Jordan didnt win squat until the Lakers, Celtics AND Pistons were old, tired and done. He DID win a lot...after two expansions. Dont get me wrong, Jordan utterly dominated the competition in front of him. But you SHOULD take into account the times/circumstances.

This statement has made you look like a fool. There's no fact to what you said, in fact at best it would be speculation, and most of it is in fact untrue.

The late 80s and early 90s was when he achieved a majority of his legacy... you know, championships, MVPs, Finals MVPs, other major awards, myriads of records. The Lakers were in their 20s in 1991. So were the Pistons. You're a fool if you think teams are "old" when they're still in their 20s. Jordan didn't beat these teams earlier in his career simply because he didn't have a good team around him... it has nothing to do with teams "getting old", as you like to assume. By the way, he had taken the Pistons to the brink in the Eastern Conference Finals with little help around him the previous two seasons as well.

Ever heard of the 90's Knicks?:confusedshrug: Yeah, they were pretty good. They were there every year against the Bulls. The 92 and 93 Knicks looked like a championship team. Maybe you've heard of the Cavs. These were 55-60 win teams. And the teams the Bulls faced in the Finals were great too... the Blazers, who had made the Finals and West Finals the previous two year... the Suns, who were one of the best teams to never win a ring.

Don't be fooled, they faced great teams in the second run too. That is of course assuming that you've heard of the Magic, Knicks, Pacers and Heat. Or the 64-18 Sonics, or 64-18 Jazz, or the 62-20 Jazz.

[Loki]

The Pistons' average age in '91 when Chicago swept them was 29. The Lakers' average age was 28 or so. LOL @ people calling them "old" when Jordan and Chicago were dominating the league at age 34-35, with an average team age of like 33-34.

Also, I think people (almost always Laker fans, amusingly) who talk about the other teams (Boston, Detroit) falling off are deluding themselves. Jordan's Bulls of '91-'98 would have certainly beat the '89/'90 Pistons considering that Jordan almost singlehandedly took them to 6 and 7 games in the ECF those years with his team disappearing in crucial games and down the stretch of games. Imagine Jordan playing those Pistons with any of his championship squads? The only Bulls team I can see Detroit beating is the '98 Bulls, since they were old and injured in the playoffs that year.

[Psileas]

No, Jordan is hands down the greatest shot blocking guard. That's why Jordan holds all of the records for blocked shots by guards, in a season, in a career, etc. Also the first player in history to post 200 steals and 100 blocks in a season, and still the only guard to do it... and he did it twice (Jerry West might have done this, the blocks would have been the tough part). I don't know why you think West was some premium shot blocker... he was known for ballthieving not rejections. Jordan's block percentage is higher than Gervin's as well, and that's despite Gervin retiring at the age of 33 while Jordan ruined his numbers with two seasons with the Wizards.

Wilt has the records for most points in a season and Kareem the record for most career points, but this doesn't mean that either one was "hands down" the best scorer ever. Jordan's rate was a bit higher (in the NBA alone, since, if you add ABA, Gervin takes the upper hand). Yes, Jordan played in older ages and as a 32+ year old he was a better blocker than Gervin was at the same age. But Gervin also missed a few young prolific seasons due to the ABA, and I mention this because many ignore the ABA numbers.
West was a prolific defender in general. Unfortunately, only numbers from 1974 are available, but even then, he averaged 0.74 bpg, while being close to 36 and playing only 31 mpg.


In case you forgot, too, Magic retired at the age of 31. Do you think his numbers really took a fall at all? You need to take that into mind as well when comparing him with other players. Jordan didn't actually play that many more games than Magic, but he did play at much older ages and under more challenging physical conditions than Magic.

What's the reason for this mention?
I do take this into mind, but I also consider the fact that he started his career at the age of 20 or that he missed more than half a season when he averaged more than 21 ppg, 8 rpg, 8 apg, 3 spg.


I read what you wrote above, you made some good points, mostly about the rebounding, but the bottom line is that Magic accomplished about 60% of what Jordan did. Magic holds some records, almost all of them are in assists. He holds maybe about 30 records total. He actually doesn't hold triple-double records... Jordan actually holds more of those. I don't see the point in continuing an argument... Jordan was clearly the greater player, as Magic himself has reiterated countless times.

Eh, no, actually Magic holds many triple doubles' records: Most career playoff triple doubles, most playoff triple doubles in a season, most triple doubles in a series (tied), most series averaging a triple double, most triple doubles in Finals, most consecutive triple doubles in Finals (tied) etc.

[guy]

The Pistons' average age in '91 when Chicago swept them was 29. The Lakers' average age was 28 or so. LOL @ people calling them "old" when Jordan and Chicago were dominating the league at age 34-35, with an average team age of like 33-34.

Also, I think people (almost always Laker fans, amusingly) who talk about the other teams (Boston, Detroit) falling off are deluding themselves. Jordan's Bulls of '91-'98 would have certainly beat the '89/'90 Pistons considering that Jordan almost singlehandedly took them to 6 and 7 games in the ECF those years with his team disappearing in crucial games and down the stretch of games. Imagine Jordan playing those Pistons with any of his championship squads? The only Bulls team I can see Detroit beating is the '98 Bulls, since they were old and injured in the playoffs that year.

A funny argument is when people try to discredit Jordan for saying he never beat a top 5 player, then someone will bring up Magic in 91, but then the haters will say "Oh but Magic was old and past his prime and he didn't have Kareem." I never got that. Magic was 31 years old and was 2nd in MVP voting that year, and he had Worthy, while Jordan had Pippen, but apparently to some people Magic needed one of the greatest centers of all-time for it to be fair.

[catzhernandez]

I'd move garbage like Cousy, Pettit and Mikan down to 70-80. Either that, or just completely take them off the list.

Move Bryant up to the 10-14 range, and way ahead of West, since he wouldn't be any good today, choked in the Finals, and rode Wilt's coattails to a few titles.

Robertson is nowhere near the top 10. If people knocked Garnett for never winning a title before this year, then you do the same for Robertson for riding a top 3 center's coattails to his only and undeserved championship. He was a useless role player at that time. Garnett's stats may be the greatest we've ever seen from a PF.

This list proves why Bill Russell may be the most overrated athlete in the history of American sports. What has he done to deserve a spot ahead of Shaq? Russell might be lucky to have 1/2 of Miami Shaq's impact if he played today. We're going rank a player who led his team to a 3-peat while averaging the absolute greatest Finals stats for a C in NBA history over an offensively challenged, one-dimensional Bill Russell? Not a chance. Shaq should be around 5-6. Move Russell down to 18-20.

Wow. :oldlol:

I didn't know it was possible for somebody to talk out of their ass THIS much.

Jerry West rode Wilt's coattails to a 'few' titles? Wilt only won 2 titles, and he and Jerry only won ONE together, so I'm not sure how that makes ANY f*cking sense.

Hey Bullz/5235, get a f*cking clue, you're an idiot who knows nothing of the NBA, now and especially EVER.

[BIGSHOT]

kobe=#1

[ThaRegul8r]

No, Jordan is hands down the greatest shot blocking guard. That's why Jordan holds all of the records for blocked shots by guards, in a season, in a career, etc. Also the first player in history to post 200 steals and 100 blocks in a season, and still the only guard to do it... and he did it twice (Jerry West might have done this, the blocks would have been the tough part). I don't know why you think West was some premium shot blocker... he was known for ballthieving not rejections.



“Although they didn’t keep track of the stats as they do today, I would say that Jerry West blocked more shots and had more steals than any guard who ever played in the NBA.”

Funny how people talk without knowing what they're talking about. People from that era talk about West's long arms for a man his height and how he'd block shots and get steals.

*shakes head*

[72-10]

Funny how people talk without knowing what they're talking about. People from that era talk about West's long arms for a man his height and how he'd block shots and get steals.

*shakes head*

I know what I'm talking about. West was a great defender clearly, but his shotblocking skill is not considered to be Jordan's equal. What is so hard to grasp about this concept? He didn't play on teams where he basically had to do everything for the team. He blocked shots, but not with the frequency that Jordan did.

[ThaRegul8r]

I know what I'm talking about.

You said, and I quote: "he was known for ballthieving not rejections." I just proved you wrong. That was just one quote I happened to have so I could quote exactly, but other people have talked about West's long arms and how he blocked shots and got steals. So evidently you didn't know what you were talking about. Furthermore, how could you make the statement, "[h]e blocked shots, but not with the frequency that Jordan did," when blocks weren't even recorded until 1973-74, which was his last season in the league? And that one year we do have West's blocks, he blocked 23 shots in 31 games in 967 minutes (0.9 blocks per 36 minutes) at 35 years old, while Jordan at 34 blocked 45 shots in 82 games and 3,181 minutes (0.5 blocks per 36 minutes). Based on the stats we actually have, the fact of the matter is that Jordan didn't block shots with the frequency that West did when you compare them at approximately the same age. So, no, you do not know what you're talking about.

[72-10]

You said, and I quote: "he was known for ballthieving not rejections." I just proved you wrong. That was just one quote I happened to have so I could quote exactly, but other people have talked about West's long arms and how he blocked shots and got steals. So evidently you didn't know what you were talking about. Furthermore, how could you make the statement, "[h]e blocked shots, but not with the frequency that Jordan did," when blocks weren't even recorded until 1973-74, which was his last season in the league? And that one year we do have West's blocks, he blocked 23 shots in 31 games in 967 minutes (0.9 blocks per 36 minutes) at 35 years old, while Jordan at 34 blocked 45 shots in 82 games and 3,181 minutes (0.5 blocks per 36 minutes). Based on the stats we actually have, the fact of the matter is that Jordan didn't block shots with the frequency that West did when you compare them at approximately the same age. So, no, you do not know what you're talking about.

Wow.:roll:

Let me get this straight. Your sample size - for career projections - is 30 games.

Wow, you've really outdone yourself with stupidity on this one. I don't even know what to say.:confusedshrug:

Oh by the way, pace used to be ridiculously fast back in the 60s and 70s compared to the 90s, especially the late 90s, you know, like when Jordan was 34 and no longer needed to block shots lmao.

[GoStanford]

how the **$%*#$^*#*$^#*$ did ben wallace make the list?

[ThaRegul8r]

Wow.:roll:

Let me get this straight. Your sample size - for career projections - is 30 games.

Wow, you've really outdone yourself with stupidity on this one. I don't even know what to say.:confusedshrug:

I don't know why people just say when they legitimately didn't know something. There's no shame in that. You said West wasn't known for rejections, and you were wrong.


Ironically, West has always been more skilled defensively than offensively, even in the early years when his image was that of a gunner. The players, though, were aware of the darting eyes on the skinny little pointy-eared rookie guarding them before they appreciated the classic jump shot. Bill Sharman, West's coach, feels that he is one of the few players who can play both his man and the ball at large. As numerous as his steals are, Sharman marvels more at the shots West blocks. "He must have blocked three times as many as any guard in history," he says. West himself takes a silly pride in shot blocking, rather like the dumb, stacked blonde who yearns to play Ophelia.
-- February 7, 1972

You said West didn't block shots with the frequency of Jordan, when blocks weren't kept until the last year of his career when he was 35 years old, and the stats we do have do not support your assertion. And this was at the very end of West's career. So if West was doing this at the end of his career, common sense says he did better during his prime. We can see what Jordan did at the same age, and yes, Jordan did a lot better than that in his prime. It's not exactly rocket science. West once had a game in which he had 12 steals and 10 blocked shots. How many guards since blocks have been recorded have blocked 10 shots in a game? But he wasn't known for rejections, you say.

Again, you were wrong on both your assertions.

[72-10]

I don't know why people just say when they legitimately didn't know something. There's no shame in that. You said West wasn't known for rejections, and you were wrong.

I didn't say he wasn't known for rejections, I said he wasn't known for rejections in comparison to Jordan. You need to work on reading comprehension.


You said West didn't block shots with the frequency of Jordan, when blocks weren't kept until the last year of his career when he was 35 years old, and the stats we do have do not support your assertion. And this was at the very end of West's career. So if West was doing this at the end of his career, common sense says he did better during his prime. We can see what Jordan did at the same age, and yes, Jordan did a lot better than that in his prime. It's not exactly rocket science. West once had a game in which he had 12 steals and 10 blocked shots. How many guards since blocks have been recorded have blocked 10 shots in a game? But he wasn't known for rejections, you say.

Again, you were wrong on both your assertions.

There are no reliable stats.:banghead: I think I've explained this twice already. And by the way, stats that are not recorded as an official stat might as well be thrown out. There is no credibility to them lol.

[Loki]

West once had a game in which he had 12 steals and 10 blocked shots.

When was this? Link?

[GMATCallahan]

Was KJ every a top ten player in the league in any season he played? Maybe once or twice, but that doesn't get you a top 30-40 All-Time ranking.

When KJ was playing, he was in that second tier of stars that included the likes of Tim Hardaway, Mitch Richmond, Chris Mullin ect, (lol Rum-TMC, no pun intended) which is not a bad group at all. Hell, some considered those guys to be better than KJ, and no one ranks them even top 60, so why would KJ be ranked 20-30 plus spots higher then his comp?

With all due respect, you're either deliberately or misguidedly trying to lower K.J.'s full level of play.

First, K.J. made four All-NBA Second Teams in his career (1989, 1990, 1991, 1994), which almost means that by definition he was a top-ten player at least four times. From 1989-1991, he was the only guard who finished on the All-NBA Second Team each season at a time when Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson (arguably the two greatest guards in basketball history) possessed a joint stranglehold on the First Team slots. In 1989 and 1990, K.J. and Stockton were the two Second Team guards, and in 1991, K.J. actually finished on the Second Team with Clyde Drexler at guard while John Stockton dropped down to the Third Team. During none of those three seasons did Tim Hardway or Mitch Richmond (or Isiah Thomas, for that matter) make any of the three All-NBA Teams.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/all_league.html

So one can just as easily assert that K.J. was in the same tier as John Stockton, Clyde Drexler, and Isiah Thomas, sometimes out-ranking them in the All-NBA Teams. In fact, once K.J. entered the NBA, Thomas never made another All-NBA Team and K. Johnson finished ahead of Drexler in the All-NBA Teams rankings in 1989, 1990, and 1994, while matching him in 1991. Once K.J. became a starter, he only finished behind Drexler in the All-NBA Teams twice, in 1992 (when Drexler was First Team and K.J. was Third Team) and in 1995 (when Drexler was Third Team and K.J. didn't make it after missing 35 games to injury).

Indeed, examine NBC's original introduction graphics for the '90-'91 season (when the network assumed NBA coverage from CBS). The eight players that NBC chose to feature were all follows:

Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Isiah Thomas
David Robinson
Charles Barkley
Kevin Johnson
Karl Malone
Magic Johnson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDHJBbm9ZEs&feature=related

So you could just as easily say that that was the group of stars that K.J. belonged in. Indeed, in the 1991 MVP balloting, K.J. finished seventh, ahead of such luminaries as Dominique Wilkins, Larry Bird, Patrick Ewing, John Stockton, Isiah Thomas, and Hakeem Olajuwon.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1991.html#mvp

And that result marked K.J.'s second top-eight MVP ranking in three years.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1989.html#mvp

Indeed, there was certainly a sense back then that the only guards better than K.J. at that point were Jordan and Magic. Consider these article quotations:

After Hours, It Was Showtime; [FINAL Edition]

MICHAEL WILBON. The Washington Post (pre-1997 Fulltext). Washington, D.C.: May 17, 1990. pg. d.01

... The only point guard in the league better than Kevin Johnson is Magic. ...


Suns Find a Forum to Show That They Have Come of Age; [Home Edition]

RANDY HARVEY. Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 16, 1990. pg. 6

... Kevin Johnson is the player that Isiah Thomas is supposed to be, the real Pocket Magic. He even has the right last name.

There is no doubting him now. After he played less than his best in the first two games, the Suns' coaches told him that he was thinking too much, that he was taking only what the Lakers gave him. They told him to take what he wanted.

He was the second-best Johnson on the court Tuesday night, but not by much. While the Lakers' Magic scored 43 points and had seven assists, the Suns' Kevin had 37 points and eight assists.

It didn't matter who the Lakers put in front of him, Byron Scott, Larry Drew or Michael Cooper, none could prevent Kevin Johnson from driving into the lane and creating a basket.

He also doesn't back down. The Lakers' 7-1 center, Vlade Divac, threw the ball at Kevin Johnson early in the game. Johnson later paid Divac back with a forearm to the Adam's apple. ...


February 17, 1997

This Sun Is Ready To Set

Point guard Kevin Johnson vows he'll quit at age 31, even though he's as good as ever

Tim Kurkjian

... Johnson will leave the league a different player from the one who burst into prominence with Phoenix in 1988-89, when he averaged 20 points and 10 assists a game for the first of three straight seasons. Then, next to Jordan, he was the most un-guardable player in the NBA, a blur with a flair for acrobatic finishes. ...

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1009471/2/index.htm


June 04, 1990

Out West, Some Home Cookin'

Home court mastery left ferocious run-and-gun rivals Phoenix and Portland tied at 2-2

Hank Hersch

... With fearless and peerless point guard Kevin Johnson penetrating at will, Phoenix led by as many as 46 points in Game 3 en route to a 123-89 rubout. Or, as Portland forward Jerome Kersey so aptly put it, "They controlled the game from the very onslaught." Game 4, a 119-107 Phoenix laugher, produced an almost like number of sneaker tracks across Blazer foreheads, with Johnson and forward Tom Chambers combining for 65 points. KJ also dished out 17 assists. ...

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1136797/index.htm


May 28, 1990

Desert Heat

Kevin Johnson and Jeff Hornacek are an opponent-wilting duo that has Phoenix vying for an NBA title

Jack McCallum

... Johnson is one of those players who come along only a few times a decade, a wunderkind whose talents are uniquely tailored to the pro game. Besides Jordan, is there any other player who so quickly became that much better than anyone thought he would be? Utah's Karl Malone? Dumars, perhaps? At any rate, it's a short list. By the midway point of last season—only his second in the NBA—KJ had already elevated himself into that class of point guards just below Magic, where he is clustered with Detroit 's Thomas, Utah's John Stockton, and Mark Price, the man for whom KJ was sacrificed by Cleveland. ...

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1136824/index.htm


April 24, 1989

Kj!

Guard Kevin Johnson of Phoenix gets a big lift making assists—on and off the court

Rick Reilly

... New York Knick coach Rick Pitino calls KJ "the toughest player we've played in two years." Charles Barkley of the Philadelphia 76ers says Kevin "might be the best pure point guard in basketball." According to Chicago Bulls coach Doug Collins , "Every time he gets the ball, he has a chance to break your defense." And Collins 's main man, Michael Jordan, who is now playing point guard for the Bulls, says, "I don't see how Cleveland could have let him go."

The Cavaliers did just that in February 1988. Cleveland , which already had a top-of-the-menu point guard in Mark Price, sent Johnson, then a rookie, to Phoenix along with two also-tradeds—center Mark West and forward Tyrone Corbin. In return, the Cavs got forwards Larry Nance and Mike Sanders.

But none of the others involved in the deal—Nance comes close—is having the kind of season that the 23-year-old (barely), 6'2" (in sneakers), 188-pound (after dessert) Johnson is. He was the NBA 's Player of the Month in February, when he averaged 24.5 points and 13.0 assists, and he didn't take March off, either (23.9 and 13.0). Whom does KJ remind you of? He can penetrate like Magic. He's as quick with the ball as Stockton. He's as good with his left hand from close-in as Larry Bird. His attitude is part Mailman Malone, part pit bull. He has dunked over a pair of All-Star centers—7'4" Mark Eaton of Utah and 7-foot Kevin Duckworth of the Portland Trail Blazers. And he's durable; at week's end he was fourth in the league in minutes played.

Beyond that, says teammate Tom Chambers, KJ "has the quickest first step I've ever seen." Because the only way you can save TV face once he's by you is to push, grab or trip him, Johnson goes to the foul line regularly. Once there, he's virtually a lock: He made 57 straight free throws earlier this season and was shooting .882 from the line as of Sunday. ...

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1068319/index.htm


NBA PLAYOFFS A WEAKNESS? If Lakers Have One, It May Be Playing One-on-One Defense; [Home Edition]

SAM McMANIS. Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 19, 1989. pg. 1

... The Suns, however, present matchup problems because they often play without a center. They also favor a fast-break offense-"You can't really call it a passing game," Riley said-and spread the court for Kevin Johnson in half-court situations.

Johnson is the Western Conference's version of Detroit's Isiah Thomas, but he may even be quicker and more of a scoring threat. In six games against the Lakers this season, he averaged 22.5 points and 16 assists.

Probably drawing the assignment against Johnson will be Scott, with considerable relief by Cooper. Both talked as if it would be their toughest assignment in the playoffs, even if they end up playing Thomas and the Pistons again in the finals.

"The fact that he can shoot and drive presents a problem," Scott said. "You can't play him just one way. You can't say, `I'll play him back and make him shoot the jumper,' because that's what he likes to do. You've got to get up on him and play him as tough as possible."

And risk having Johnson simply drive around him for a layup or easy assist.

"You can't be scared of his quickness, because he might beat you anyway," Scott added. "Myself and Coop are more aware now what he likes to do and what he does best. We can't relax at all when we're on him. When you relax or straighten up, just for a second, he's gone."...


Phoenix' Johnson Is Suns' Rising Star; [FINAL Edition]

Chris Cobbs. The Washington Post (pre-1997 Fulltext). Washington, D.C.: May 16, 1989. pg. e.06

... Johnson has needed only two pro seasons to establish himself as a legitimate NBA star. Some observers believe he's approaching an elite group, composed of Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan and Charles Barkley, that deserves consideration for most valuable player. Barkley himself has said that K.J. may be the league's premier point guard.

There's no disputing his value to a team that only a couple of years ago was wracked by a drug scandal that shook the franchise.

The Suns, who rebounded to win 55 regular season games this year, are engaged with the Golden State Warriors in the best-of-seven Western Conference semifinals. ...


Changing of the Guard

McManis, Sam. Sporting News. St. Louis: Feb 11, 1991. Vol. 211, Iss. 6; pg. 6

Abstract (Summary)

Earvin "Magic" Johnson has been named the NBA's Most Valuable Player for the last two seasons, but now Kevin Johnson, point guard for the Phoenix Suns, may supplant Magic as the best player on the court.

[GMATCallahan]

THEY'RE THE GAME'S BEST

By John Jackson
Date: 04-21-1991, Sunday
Section: SPORTS
Edition: All Editions -- Sunday
Column: NBA NOTEBOOK

The Record (Bergen County, NJ)

The regular season concludes today, which means it's awards time in
the National Basketball Association. The envelopes, please . . .

MOST VALUABLE PLAYER -- Michael Jordan. So what if it's an obvious
choice. The Chicago Bulls superstar is about to win his fifth straight
scoring title and has led his team to the best record in the Eastern
Conference this season. What more does he have to do? Entering the
weekend, Jordan was averaging 31.5 points per game, shooting 53.8
percent from the field, and handing out 5.6 assists.

Karl Malone of Utah, Kevin Johnson of Phoenix, Clyde Drexler of
Portland, and Magic Johnson of the Los Angeles Lakers, last year's
winner, deserve consideration, but their seasons cannot compare to
Jordan's.

... ALL NBA TEAM -- First team: forwards Charles Barkley and Karl
Malone, center Hakeem Olajuwon, and guards Michael Jordan and Kevin
Johnson.

Second team: forwards Chris Mullin and James Worthy, center David
Robinson, and guards Mitch Richmond and Magic Johnson.

Third team: Forwards Dominique Wilkins and Larry Bird, center
Patrick Ewing, and guards Clyde Drexler and John Stockton.

First team comments: Barkley (28.3 points, 57 percent shooting,
10.3 rebounds) and Malone (29 points, 52 percent, 12 rebounds) are the
class at forward. Olajuwon (21.1 points, 13.7 rebounds, 3.9 blocks),
despite missing 25 games with an eye injury, has been the best of the
elite three centers in the league. Jordan is a no-brainer and Kevin
Johnson (22.1 points, 10.2 assists, 2.1 steals) has the best stats among
the slew of top point guards.

Other comments: Mullin and Richmond may be surprise picks, but each
has had an outstanding season. The choice between Magic Johnson and
Stockton was a tossup and Robinson edges Ewing with his better
rebounding numbers. ...


Indeed, let's consider some of those stats. In 1991, Kevin Johnson became the only player in NBA history to average at least 20.0 points, 10.0 assists, a .500 field goal percentage, and 2.0 steals in the same season, and he and Magic Johnson are the only players to ever average at least 20.0 points, 10.0 assists, and a .500 field goal percentage in a season, each accomplishing the feat twice (Magic in 1987 and 1989 and K.J. in 1989 and 1991).

Then consider 1990: Magic (the MVP) averaged 22.3 points, 11.5 assists, and a .480 field goal percentage, while K.J. averaged 22.5 points, 11.4 assists, and a .499 field goal percentage (along with Oscar Robertson and Tiny Archibald, K.J. and Magic are the only players to average at least 22.0 points and 11.0 assists in a season). Does that mean that K.J. was better than or equivalent to Magic? No, but it did mean that K.J. could go toe-to-toe with his taller rival. For instance, even though Magic Johnson averaged 36.0 points in Games Three, Four, and Five of the 1990 Western Conference Semifinals, K.J.'s average of 29.7 points and 11.3 assists over those same three games helped the Suns win each contest to eliminate the league-best, 63-win Lakers, four games to one.

Indeed, K.J. wasn't just about individual statistics; in his first seven full seasons in Phoenix from 1989-1995, the Suns (which hadn't posted a winning record since 1983 and which had averaged 33.0 wins per year from 1985-1988) won the most regular season games in the NBA (394, an average of 56.3) and the second-most playoff games (46), trailing only Chicago in that regard. Nor was K.J. simply carried by famous teammate Charles Barkley, for K. Johnson played in more Western Conference Finals without Barkley (1989, 1990) than with him (1993).

Nor was K.J. just a flash in the pan. He received the NBA's Player of the Month Award over eight years apart, first at age 22 in February 1989 (24.5 points, 13.0 assists, 4.2 rebounds, 2.0 steals, 0.5 blocks, .495 field goal percentage, .897 free throw percentage) and then again at age 31 in April 1997 (23.2 points, 9.7 assists, 3.2 rebounds, .524 field goal percentage, .417 three-point field goal percentage, .873 free throw percentage).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/psplit.cgi?player=johnske02&year=1989

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/psplit.cgi?player=johnske02&year=1997

Only Oscar Robertson tops or matches K.J.'s number of seasons averaging at least 20.0 points and 9.0 assists (five) and 19.0 points and 9.0 assists (six), and K.J.'s seven seasons averaging at least 9.0 assists are only matched by Robertson, Magic Johnson, John Stockton, and Jason Kidd. Over nine seasons as a starter from 1989-1997, K.J. averaged 19.8 points, 10.0 assists, and a .497 field goal percentage in 599 regular season games. Add 92 playoff games during that stretch, and in 691 total contests over nine seasons from 1989-1997 (regular season and postseason), K.J. averaged 20.0 points, 10.0 assists, and a .493 field goal percentage. In NBA history, the only player who combined elite performance in all three statistical categories (the three most vital for a lead guard) for a span of around a decade better than K.J. was Magic, and Robertson is the only other one in the ballpark.

Clearly, from 1989-1997 (a good-sized chunk of NBA history), K.J. was one of the five best guards in the game overall. As for Tim Hardaway, Mitch Richmond, and Chris Mullin, they don't quite stack up to K. Johnson. Richmond and Mullin were excellent scorers and dangerous perimeter shooters, but they didn't excel at making their teammates better and usually failed to play for elite teams, especially when they were stars. And even in his prime, Hardaway proved significantly less efficient than K. Johnson. For instance, in nine seasons from 1989-1997, K.J. (as noted earlier) averaged 19.8 points, 10.0 assists, a .497 field goal percentage, and an .839 free throw percentage, whereas in nine seasons from 1990-1999 (Hardaway missed the entire 1994 season), Hardaway averaged 19.4 points, 9.0 assists, a .442 field goal percentage, and a .778 free throw percentage. They were similarly explosive and each featured devastating cross-over dribbles, but K.J. was a better shooter from the field and the foul line, a superior mid-range jump-shooter, and an even better penetrator, playmaker, finisher, and defender. Hardaway featured more range and was a little stronger physically, but other than that, I can't think of where he was more effective or necessarily equivalent to K.J., who was even quicker and more athletic yet also more cerebral. Hardaway wasn't as adept as a floor leader and he reached the free throw line less while jacking up quite a few more shots per game (15.4 career FGA to K.J.'s 12.5) to score an average of even fewer points.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardati01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnske02.html

The consequences of those differences could be seen clearly enough in the playoffs. Whereas K.J. played in one NBA Finals, three conference finals, and seven conference semifinals, Hardaway played in zero nba finals, one conference finals, and just two conference semifinals. Indeed, he was a 39% career playoff field goal shooter, compared to K.J.'s 47%.

But you can also take Hakeem Olajuwon's word on it from page 282 of his 1996 autobiography, Living the Dream, about the 1995 Western Conference Semifinals:

... So it came down to game seven back in Phoenix.

Charles Barkley was the Suns' most visible player, he was a superstar and his presence was felt. He was effective but with our defensive rotation we were making him pay. We put Robert Horry on him, and Robert is 6'10", active, and hard to shoot over, an excellent defender who gets key rebounds. Barkley is an excellent passer so he would find the open man, he did his damage, but we took that blow. Game seven was Kevin Johnson's.

K.J. finishes better than almost any guard in the league. He has one of the best crossover dribbles in the NBA. Tim Hardaway crosses over but then he has to hit his jump shot, K.J. crosses over and beats you and goes to the basket. That's different. He's coming full speed, then all of a sudden he changes direction and sees a clear path to the basket. When he's on his game, by the time I come over to block him I'm always a second too late, he's putting it on the glass before I get there. If I go too soon he draws the foul as well. He knows how to get you to foul him and how to make the basket at the same time. K.J. went to the foul line twenty-two times that night and hit twenty-one.

Every time I looked K.J. was driving. When he wasn't penetrating he was pulling up and hitting his jump shots. He was just incredible. It's a trial just being on the same court with someone who is playing so well. I tried to encourage Kenny Smith and Sam Cassell, who were guarding him. I said, "You've got to contain him. When he's crossing over I can't get there. If you can delay him for a second I can help you. Meet him way out front, don't just let him come. Make him play defense on the other end. Don't worry, you're not by yourself, he has to beat the whole team, he has to beat us!'"

I was having a hard time. ...

Indeed, in three career Game Sevens, K.J. averaged 31.0 points (third all-time behind Michael Jordan and George Gervin among those who played in at least three Game Sevens) and 10.0 assists (tied for fourth behind Magic Johnson, John Stockton, and Bob Cousy).

So to simply state that K.J.'s comparisons are Hardaway, Mullin, and Richmond is totally fallacious. That might be one piece to the puzzle, but just because it's the piece that you like the best, you shouldn't highlight it as if it's the only piece. One could much more easily and correctly state that K.J.'s comparisons should be John Stockton, Isiah Thomas, and Clyde Drexler, and remember that from 1989-1991, K.J. was the only guard to make the All-NBA Second Team each season when Magic and Jordan were dominating the First Team. In those days, as I've shown, K.J. was arguably the second-best point guard behind Magic (even though there were other great ones in the game, such as Stockton and Thomas) and the second-most unstoppable player (or at least guard) behind Jordan. Indeed, circa 1991, one could compare K.J. to Magic as much as Hardaway, and Charles Barkley reflected that K.J. was the best point guard in the league that season.

November 09, 1992

Hot Head

After eight fiery years with the Sixers, Charles Barkley is raging in Phoenix and trying to toughen the talented Suns

Rick Reilly

...Still, Barkley admits that most of the weight is on him and KJ. "He's gotta play great; I gotta play great," says Barkley. "I want him to play like he did two years ago. He was the best point guard in basketball. He was unstoppable. ...

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1004463/4/index.htm

Whether astute or not, that quotation (like all the others that I've provided, along with all the statistics and information) show that K.J. was on a higher level that you're imagining. Indeed, Tim Hardaway, Chris Mullin, and Mitch Richmond basically marked the bottom of his range and hardly the extent of it. Instead, a more accurate and veracious historical assessment would place K.J. with guys like Stockton, Thomas, and Drexler, somewhere between Jordan, Magic, and Bird on the one hand and then players such as Hardaway, Mullin, and Richmond on the other. And to quote Charles Barkley's old deodorant commercials, "Anything less would be uncivilized."

[GMATCallahan]

Richmond was compared to Jordan, Timmy to Magic and Mullin to Bird. The compare a lot of players to past players, doesn't mean anything. They compared Zo to Russell a ton back then, does that make Zo a top 30 player all-time, hell no.


KJ played in the same era as Mitch/Tim/Mullin also (ll three played in the Golden era also.) I know it was a tough era, but Zeke, Clyde and Stock managed to squeeze a few first teams in their. Hell, KJ spent most of his years making the 2nd teams with Mitch Richmond. Tim Hardaway also made a first team as a guard, something KJ couldn't do.

No one seriously compared Mitch Richmond to Michael Jordan as an overall player, and the difference is that Kevin Johnson actually posted similar numbers to Magic Johnson while they were still in the league together (hence the "pocket Magic" reference), something that the much more inefficient Tim Hardaway didn't really do over a sustained stretch. Besides, can you provide proof for your assertions, as I've done? And any comparison between Bill Russell and Alonzo Mourning was just as a historical reference for some similar skills. Since they missed each other by over two decades in the NBA, that comparison didn't actually mean anything in terms of how they competed on the court.

Isiah Thomas stopped making the All-NBA First Team as soon as Michael Jordan blossomed into an MVP candidate in his third season in the NBA in 1987. That year marked the last time that Thomas made an All-NBA Team of any kind, because as soon as Stockton and K.J. emerged in the late eighties, Thomas became a no-show on the All-NBA squads for the remainder of his career (in fact, Thomas made his final All-NBA Team at age 25 in 1987).

And Clyde Drexler only made one First Team, in 1992. Usually, K.J. placed better than him in the All-NBA Teams, as noted in my earlier post.

K.J. only made the All-NBA Second Team with Richmond once, in 1994. In 1989 and 1990, K.J. made it with John Stockton, while in 1991, K.J. made it with Drexler while Stockton dropped to the Third Team.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/all_league.html

So let's stick with what actually happened, not with what we think happened or what we want to think happened.

And of course, the reason why K.J. didn't make the First Team was because his three best statistical regular seasons (1989-1991) happened to coincide with Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan still reigning supreme and receiving MVPs during those years. Over those three seasons, K.J. averaged 21.7 points, 11.3 assists, 3.8 rebounds, 1.7 steals, a .507 field goal percentage, and an .854 free throw percentage, numbers not too different from Magic's averages during those years of 21.4 points, 12.3 assists, 7.1 rebounds, 1.6 steals, a .489 field goal percentage, and a .907 free throw percentage. And K.J. led stellar Phoenix teams as well, ones that won the third-most regular season games (164, an average of 54.7) from 1989-1991 (trailing only the Lakers and Pistons) and which reached the Western Conference Finals in 1989 and 1990. (And, yes, that was long before Charles Barkley arrived in Arizona.)

So again, K.J. was just more unlucky than anyone else in his timing, as he was averaging approximately 22 points, 11 assists, 4 rebounds, 2 steals, 51% field goal shooting, and 85% free throw shooting over that three-season stretch. But since Magic was averaging about 21 points, 12 assists, 7 rebounds, 2 steals, 49% field goal shooting, and 91% free throw shooting, he received the First Team nods. (Oh, and should I note that Michael Jordan averaged 32.5 points, 6.6 assists, 7.0 rebounds, 2.8 steals, 0.8 blocks, a .534 field goal percentage, and an .850 free throw percentage from 1989-1991?)

Finally, let's consider that K.J. may have been deserving of a First Team slot or two later on, but that the voters may have made a questionable, debatable, or flat-out poor choice. In 1994, for instance, the voters gave a First Team guard slot to Golden State's Latrell Sprewell, who averaged 21.0 points, 4.7 assists, a .433 field goal percentage, and a .774 free throw percentage. Not only does that selection now seem bizarre considering that Sprewell never again made another All-NBA Team of any kind in eleven more years in the league (and he hadn't made one previously), but K.J. averaged 20.0 points, 9.5 assists (fifth in the NBA), a .487 field goal percentage, and an .819 free throw percentage that season. Included were a game where K.J. recorded a triple-double with steals, one where he passed for 25 assists, and another where he became the last player (so far) to score at least 40 points with more than 15 assists in the same game.

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1993&b=19931209&tm=phx

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1993&b=19940406&tm=phx

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1993&b=19940403&tm=phx

And then in the 1994 Western Conference First Round, K.J. smoked Sprewell to the tune of 26.7 points, 9.3 assists, just 3.0 turnovers, and a .492 field goal percentage in the Suns' three-game sweep.

Johnson's 38 Ignites Suns Over Warriors

The Washington Post, May 2, 1994

Kevin Johnson's shooting eye was out of kilter, but not his legs.

After hitting just 5-of-16 shots in the first half against the Golden State Warriors, Johnson got orders from Phoenix Coach Paul Westphal to cut out the long-range stuff.

"He literally said, `Don't shoot any more jump shots,' and stuff like, `Get some layups and get people involved,' " Johnson said after scoring a playoff career-high 38 points, including 17 in the third quarter when Phoenix took the lead for good in a 117-111 victory yesterday at America West Arena.

The win put the Suns ahead 2-0 in the best-of-five Western Conference playoff series.

Johnson, using his one-on-one skills to blow past Latrell Sprewell, scored 15 points in the final 5:02 of the third quarter on mostly layups. He hit 10 of his last 15 field-goal attempts and set a Suns playoff record with 31 shots attempted, breaking a record Westphal set (30) in 1979.

Danny Ainge started the fourth quarter with a three-pointer, putting Phoenix ahead 94-86, and clinched the game with 3:05 to play on an 18-footer from the corner that made it 116-104.

The Suns didn't make another basket, but the 12-point lead was too much for the Warriors to overcome.

"They played exceptionally well into the third quarter, and once we started to make our run, they got confused and started to talk to each other," said A.C. Green, who earned two championship rings with the Los Angeles Lakers.

"At the first sign of adversity, they started to crack, and I said, `Now's the time to take them.' "

Coach Don Nelson didn't see it that way.

"Things went right for them and wrong for us," Nelson said. "Maybe we lost our composure, but they tightened up their defense and became very physical."

Charles Barkley scored 20 for the Suns, who shot 44 percent to the Warriors' 51 percent, and Dan Majerle had 17, including six on a pair of three-pointers in the fourth quarter.

"I thought we were doing okay when we were keeping them down," Chris Mullin said. "But I thought when Ainge made those threes and Majerle got open for a three-pointer or two, I thought that hurt us. Besides that, there was Kevin, but he hurt us all game."

Mullin scored 19 of his 32 points in the third period, Sprewell added 19 for the Warriors and Chris Webber had 17.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199405010PHO.html

Or consider 1997. Who do you think was the better point guard, the All-NBA First Team selection Tim Hardaway, who averaged 20.3 points (seventeenth in the NBA), 8.6 assists (seventh), 3.4 rebounds, a .415 field goal percentage, a .344 three-point field goal percentage, and a .799 free throw percentage? Or Kevin Johnson, who averaged 20.1 points (twentieth), 9.3 assists (third), 3.6 rebounds, a .496 field goal percentage (thirty-first), a .441 three-point field goal percentage (third), and an .852 free throw percentage (fifteenth)? K.J. became the first player in NBA history to rank in the top-three in assists average and three-point field goal percentage in the same season (John Stockton in 2001 and Steve Nash in 2008 have since joined him), a testament to his combination of passing and shooting skill. Indeed, in the '96-'97 season, the Suns went 1-11 (.083) without K.J. (despite featuring Sam Cassell and a rookie Steve Nash at the point in his place) and 39-31 (.557) with him.

Yet somehow, K.J. didn't even make the All-NBA Third Team that year as even Anfernee Hardaway (20.5 points, 5.6 assists, 4.5 rebounds, .447 field goal percentage, .318 three-point field goal percentage, .820 free throw percentage in 59 games, 11 fewer than K.J.) made it instead. Indeed, that just shows you how underrated Kevin Johnson had become.

The Hardaways weren't better than K.J.; they were just better-hyped.

[GMATCallahan]

Just to add a couple more quotations:

PRO BASKETBALL; Speedy Johnson Races to the Top

GOLDAPER, SAM. New York Times. (Late Edition (East Coast)). New York, N.Y.: Feb 10, 1991. pg. A.6

... Johnson is often compared with outstanding players past and present, and the same names keep coming up. An informal survey of several players, coaches and general managers produced opinions that the right-handed Sun guard can penetrate like Magic Johnson, is as quick with the ball as John Stockton, and is as good with his left hand as Larry Bird.

But the name that surfaced most often in the comparisons was that of Nate (Tiny) Archibald, the only player ever to have led the N.B.A. in both scoring (34.0) and assists (11.4). He did it playing for the Kansas City-Omaha Kings in the 1972-73 season.

"He's quicker than I was and is a better shooter," Archibald said last week at the Legends Game at Madison Square Garden. "He has great determination. He'll do anything it takes to win." ...

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE4DB1430F933A25751C0A9679582 60


Shining again

Powell, Shaun. Sporting News. St. Louis: Feb 3, 1997. Vol. 221, Iss. 5; pg. 27, 1 pgs

... The Suns have a star on their hands. He plays point guard. But he's not Jason Kidd.

Over the last few weeks, Kevin Johnson has played as well as any point guard in the league. With Kidd nursing a broken collarbone back to health-he isn't expected to return until after the All-Star break-KJ. is enjoying what is easily his finest stretch of the season. Over a recent 12-game span, KJ. averaged 22 points, 9.6 assists and two steals while playing 40 minutes a night. The quick step off the dribble is back, and so is the pullup jumper. Once again, Johnson is demonstrating that, when healthy, he's capable of playing as well as any small guard. ...

[Glove_20]

BUMP for Glove_20

Bump for L.Kizzle :D

[GMATCallahan]

Just to add one more revealing quotation:

Johnson: Lakers Out of Gear;Guard Says Playoff Mode Not Reached in Loss to Suns; [FINAL Edition]

David Aldridge. The Washington Post (pre-1997 Fulltext). Washington, D.C.: May 17, 1990. pg. d.01

...That Phoenix ousted the Lakers does not rank as an all-time upset. The Suns won 50-plus games during the regular season. They have all-stars Kevin Johnson and Tom Chambers, and excellent role-players in Jeff Hornacek, Eddie Johnson, Dan Majerle and former Laker, Kurt Rambis.

They can beat the Lakers in transition. And they have someone who can can out-Showtime Showtime: Kevin Johnson.

"Kevin Johnson is a unique player," Lakers Coach Pat Riley said. "We tried to do everything we could with him. He just rose to the occasion."

Plus, the Suns were itching for another crack at Los Angeles after getting swept last season in the Western finals. But no one expected this-beating Los Angeles twice in three games at the Great Western Forum after losing 21 straight here.

The Suns pounded them inside with center Mark West and Rambis, shot the lights out from the perimeter with Hornacek, and had Kevin Johnson to break down the Lakers' defense any time he desired.

"We just got outplayed," forward Orlando Woolridge said. "They are a team that plays the same style that we do, but they just did it better. ...


The Lakers' loss to the Suns in the 1990 Western Conference Semifinals marked the only time in Magic Johnson's thirteen-season NBA career that his team lost a playoff series to an opponent that did not start a center who had made an All-Star Game in his career. It also represented the only time that Magic's Lakers lost in the Western Conference Playoffs to someone other than a Houston club that featured either Moses Malone or Hakeem Olajuwon at center.

[GMATCallahan]

... also about that series:

Trail Blazers Get No Rest In the West; Surprising Suns Set for Game 1 Visit; [FINAL Edition]

David Aldridge. The Washington Post (pre-1997 Fulltext). Washington, D.C.: May 21, 1990. pg. d.08

... Guard Kevin Johnson is real, all right, as are Tom Chambers, guard Jeff Hornacek and swingman Dan Majerle. Phoenix gave the Lakers a number of looks. Since Magic Johnson was the only Lakers player firing offensively, the Suns could afford to save their energies for offense.

"It's so difficult for anybody to guard one guy," Kevin Johnson said. "Any time you do that, you're going to be exposed somewhere else."

The Suns' Johnson exposed the Lakers everywhere. He embarrassed Byron Scott in the open court, and when Los Angeles tried to double-team him, he found Hornacek and Majerle for wide-open jumpers.

Not that he hasn't been scoring himself. In the playoffs, he's averaging 20.9 points per game, with Chambers right on his heels at 20.8. Center Mark West is pulling down 11.6 rebounds, fifth in the playoffs, and his .602 field goal percentage is third.

Johnson and Chambers were deadly with the pick-and-roll play. Both shoot well from the perimeter, posing a double threat and making their two-man game among the best in the league. ...

[D-Fence]

When was this? Link?
Wasn't my assertion, but here's a link. According to the article, West himself claims to have achieved a fantastic quadruple-double without assists: 44 points, 12 rebounds, 12 steals and 10 blocks, while supposedly missing only 1 field goal attempt.

http://espn.go.com/sportscentury/features/00016601.html

[L.Kizzle]

I'm not trying to lower KJ, I'm just saying he's not a top 30-40 player All-Time. You don't need to post those article, I seen them before, he's just not a top 30-40 player. Now if his career continued the way it was goin' of course he would probably be ranked that high, but it didn't. And being All-NBA 2nd team doesn't mean he was automatically a top 10 player. Remember it's 2 C and 4 guards/forwards so that's leaving of a center that could be Dream/Pat/D-Rob any of those seasons.

[Glove_20]

I'm not trying to lower KJ, I'm just saying he's not a top 30-40 player All-Time. You don't need to post those article, I seen them before, he's just not a top 30-40 player. Now if his career continued the way it was goin' of course he would probably be ranked that high, but it didn't. And being All-NBA 2nd team doesn't mean he was automatically a top 10 player. Remember it's 2 C and 4 guards/forwards so that's leaving of a center that could be Dream/Pat/D-Rob any of those seasons.

:confusedshrug:
Come on Kizzle. You basically argued against 5% of the points made, just a small little part of the 5-6 posts on "defining the Top 10 players" and besides that just said what you have been saying. And in case you didn't know, only the italicized are articles and the rest, a large chunk, are real argument paragraphs.


So, come on, you say "Why is Kevin Johnson so good?". And then when the argument is made, you only have something to say about 5% of it. Seems to me you are more ignoring why KJ is so good and then asking why is he he so good, doesn't make any sense.

So if you really don't think he's that good, try breaking all the arguments and then saying something before you go back to what you always say.

It's like saying "LBJ is overrated".
*Arguments are made of why LBJ is so good*.
Then you come, argue 5% of the arguments, and then say "LBJ is overrated"

Thats how bad you sound.

[GMATCallahan]

I'm not trying to lower KJ, I'm just saying he's not a top 30-40 player All-Time. You don't need to post those article, I seen them before, he's just not a top 30-40 player. Now if his career continued the way it was goin' of course he would probably be ranked that high, but it didn't. And being All-NBA 2nd team doesn't mean he was automatically a top 10 player. Remember it's 2 C and 4 guards/forwards so that's leaving of a center that could be Dream/Pat/D-Rob any of those seasons.

It is fine for you to possess that opinion. However, it is just an opinion, nothing more, and just because you say that he isn’t, that doesn’t mean that he isn’t in actuality. And I’m not saying that he necessarily is, either, but certainly, a case can be made in what is very much an open-ended debate with few necessarily right or wrong answers.

Would you say that it’s fair to argue that Kevin Johnson is arguably one of the ten greatest point guards in NBA history? And wouldn’t you say that point guard is generally one of the most important positions because of the responsibilities involved in floor leadership and the value of facilitation? If so, then it’s possible to argue that Kevin Johnson is one of the thirty or forty greatest players ever. That argument becomes that much stronger if you see how whatifsports.com, utilizing “statistical technology” (instead of the usual bogus or fallacious criteria that most folks employ, such as notoriety, hype, and publicity), chooses to rank the greatest point guards of all-time.

#5 Kevin Johnson (Cleveland, Phoenix: 1987-2000)

Probably the biggest surprise ranking on this list, “KJ” did not do anything better than all of the rest, yet had no flaws. His only minor downfall was health as he missed 15 or more games in six of his 12 seasons. Still, Kevin Johnson should be a Hall of Famer for what he did on the court and, by the looks of it, he could be one off the court as well.

Stats: 25.2 pp48, 12.8 ap48, 4.7 rp48, 2.1 sp48, 3.0 A/TO, 1.43 pps

http://www.armchairgm.com/Article:Top_10_Point_Guards_of_All-Time

So there’s even a case to be made that K.J. was one of the five best point guards ever, and one could argue that no point guard melded explosiveness, efficiency, and playmaking as effectively as K. Johnson. Then you could consider the word of Ken Shouler, the editor of and a writer for Total Basketball: The Ultimate Basketball Encyclopedia. He believes that K.J. should be in the Hall of Fame and that the former Sun is unjustly is undervalued.

Kevin Johnson

KJ was a slithery blur attacking the basket. Whenever great, small guards are discussed, Johnson is overlooked. That shouldn't be. ...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=shouler_ken&id=2822048

Why is it that people who’ve closely studied the historical record and the statistics seem to possess a higher opinion of Kevin Johnson than those who haven’t?

When, during this March 2001 Phoenix Suns telecast, Hubie Brown stated that Kevin Johnson was one of the greatest players that he’d ever seen, do you think that Brown was delusional?

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=2000&b=20010307&tm=PHO

Or do you think that Brown knows basketball?

When, during this November 2006 Phoenix Suns telecast, Bill Walton stated that Kevin Johnson was one of the “brilliant” players of his era, do you think that Walton was misguided?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200611240PHO.html

Or do you think that Walton knows basketball?

When, during this March 2005 Phoenix Suns telecast on ESPN, longtime NBA color commentator Steve “Snapper” Jones said, “Everybody forgets what a great player Kevin Johnson was,” who do you think that he might have been referring to?

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=2004&b=20050330&tm=Pho

Again, why do you think that some individuals who followed matters more closely display a greater appreciation for Kevin Johnson than laymen or people who just take their cues from the mainstream media?

As for a spot on the All-NBA Second Team, I know that it doesn’t necessarily make one a top-ten player, but it’s just a mathematical standard. Furthermore, even if you want to argue that one or two of the great centers who didn’t make the All-NBA Second Team were better than K.J., were Second Team forwards such as Tom Chambers, Chris Mullin, Dominique Wilkins, and Shawn Kemp also better than K. Johnson? It certainly could be argued that in several seasons, Kevin Johnson was one of the eight or nine best players in the NBA.

Furthermore, if you’re going to say that the ten best players don’t necessarily derive from the First and Second All-NBA Teams, then I could argue that K.J. was also a top-ten player in some years where he didn’t make the Second Team, such as 1992 (when he made the Third Team) and 1997 (a season that I described earlier).

Finally, I think that you’re underrating Kevin Johnson’s longevity. Obviously, it didn’t end up comparing to that of, say, John Stockton’s, but K.J. was an elite point guard for about a decade. In 1997, he was arguably the greatest point guard in the game and the second-best guard after Michael Jordan, and I’ll copy certain portions of my previous posts:

Nor was K.J. just a flash in the pan. He received the NBA's Player of the Month Award over eight years apart, first at age 22 in February 1989 (24.5 points, 13.0 assists, 4.2 rebounds, 2.0 steals, 0.5 blocks, .495 field goal percentage, .897 free throw percentage) and then again at age 31 in April 1997 (23.2 points, 9.7 assists, 3.2 rebounds, .524 field goal percentage, .417 three-point field goal percentage, .873 free throw percentage).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ke02&year=1989

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ke02&year=1997

Only Oscar Robertson tops or matches K.J.'s number of seasons averaging at least 20.0 points and 9.0 assists (five) and 19.0 points and 9.0 assists (six), and K.J.'s seven seasons averaging at least 9.0 assists are only matched by Robertson, Magic Johnson, John Stockton, and Jason Kidd. Over nine seasons as a starter from 1989-1997, K.J. averaged 19.8 points, 10.0 assists, and a .497 field goal percentage in 599 regular season games. Add 92 playoff games during that stretch, and in 691 total contests over nine seasons from 1989-1997 (regular season and postseason), K.J. averaged 20.0 points, 10.0 assists, and a .493 field goal percentage. In NBA history, the only player who combined elite performance in all three statistical categories (the three most vital for a lead guard) for a span of around a decade better than K.J. was Magic, and Robertson is the only other one in the ballpark.


Shining again

Powell, Shaun. Sporting News. St. Louis: Feb 3, 1997. Vol. 221, Iss. 5; pg. 27, 1 pgs

... The Suns have a star on their hands. He plays point guard. But he's not Jason Kidd.

Over the last few weeks, Kevin Johnson has played as well as any point guard in the league. With Kidd nursing a broken collarbone back to health-he isn't expected to return until after the All-Star break-KJ. is enjoying what is easily his finest stretch of the season. Over a recent 12-game span, KJ. averaged 22 points, 9.6 assists and two steals while playing 40 minutes a night. The quick step off the dribble is back, and so is the pullup jumper. Once again, Johnson is demonstrating that, when healthy, he's capable of playing as well as any small guard. ...


February 17, 1997

This Sun Is Ready To Set

Point guard Kevin Johnson vows he'll quit at age 31, even though he's as good as ever

Tim Kurkjian

… He still beats the quickest defenders off the dribble, and he still gets tremendous elevation on his jump shot. In fact, Johnson may be smarter, more versatile and better than ever. …

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1009471/index.htm


Now, without the injuries, or if the Suns had been able to finish off the Rockets in the Western Conference Semifinals and win the championship in 1994 and/or 1995, then some might be talking about Kevin Johnson as a top-twenty all-time player, as they do with John Stockton and Isiah Thomas. (K.J. was arguably at his absolute peak in those two series against Houston, averaging 27.2 points, 9.6 assists, 4.0 rebounds, a .502 field goal percentage, a .421 three-point field goal percentage, and an .856 free throw percentage in the 14 total games, including 35.5 points, 10.5 assists, just 2.0 turnovers, and a .967 free throw percentage in the two Game Sevens.) Regardless, K.J. was still one of the game’s great guards for approximately a decade, not just a guy a like Michael Ray Richardson who flashed across the sky briefly and then quickly faded from view.

[GMATCallahan]

Here is another example of K.J.'s level of effectiveness and relative longevity. Remember, when you're talking about a star lead guard, points per game, assists per game, and field goal percentage are probably the three most important statistical categories and they mesure one's ability to be prolific yet efficient.

Landing that kind of player would be akin to finding a diamond in the rough, and from 1995-2004 (a span of ten consecutive seasons), only one point guard combined as much as 15.0 points, 9.0 assists, and a .470 field goal percentage in any one season, and that was K.J. himself in 1996 (18.7/9.2/.507) and 1997 (20.1/9.3/.496). From 1998-2004, there was no player in the NBA who combined those numbers (15.0/9.0/.470), and at K.J.'s statistical peak, he was one of two players in league history (along with Magic Johnson) to average at least 20.0 points, 10.0 assists, and a .500 field goal percentage.

The point, of course, is that the multi-talented playmaker is highly rare. There are currently only three 15.0/9.0/.470 guards (or players) in the NBA in Nash, Paul, and Williams, and it's difficult to even find three at one time. In fact, let's chart how many 15.0/9.0/.470 players there have been through the years:

2008: three (Chris Paul, Steve Nash, Deron Williams)

2007: one (Steve Nash)

2006: one (Steve Nash)

2005: one (Steve Nash)

2004: none

2003: none

2002: none

2001: none

2000: none

1999: none

1998: none

1997: one (Kevin Johnson)

1996: one (Kevin Johnson)

1995: none

1994: three (John Stockton, Kevin Johnson, Rod Strickland)

1993: one (John Stockton)

1992: two (John Stockton, Kevin Johnson)

1991: five (John Stockton, Magic Johnson, Kevin Johnson, Tim Hardaway, Pooh Richardson)

1990: three (John Stockton, Magic Johnson, Kevin Johnson)

1989: four (John Stockton, Magic Johnson, Kevin Johnson, Terry Porter)

1988: one (Magic Johnson)

1987: two (Magic Johnson, Sleepy Floyd)

1986: five (Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, Reggie Theus, Maurice Cheeks, Sleepy Floyd)

1985: one (Magic Johnson)

1984: one (Magic Johnson)

1983: one (Magic Johnson)

1982: one (Magic Johnson)

1981: none

1980: one (Michael Ray Richardson)

1979: two (Kevin Porter, Norm Nixon)

1978: none

1977: none

1976: none

1975: none

1974: none

1973: one (Tiny Archibald)

1972: two (Jerry West, Tiny Archibald)

1971: one (Jerry West)

1970: none

1969: one (Oscar Robertson)

1968: one (Oscar Robertson)

1967: one (Oscar Robertson)

1966: one (Oscar Robertson)

1965: one (Oscar Robertson)

1964: one (Oscar Robertson)

1963: one (Oscar Robertson)

1962: one (Oscar Robertson)

1961: one (Oscar Robertson)

1960: none

1959: none

1958: none

1957: none

1956: none

1955: none

1954: none

1953: none

1952: none

1951: none

1950: none

1948: none

1947: none


So here's the rundown on the seasons with at least 15.0 points, 9.0 assists, and a .470 field goal percentage in NBA history:

Magic Johnson: ten (1982-1991)

Oscar Robertson: nine (1961-1969)

Kevin Johnson: seven (1989-1992, 1994, 1996, 1997)

John Stockton: six (1989-1994)

Steve Nash: four (2005-2008)

Tiny Archibald: two (1972, 1973)

Sleepy Floyd: two (1986, 1987)

Jerry West: two (1971, 1972)

Maurice Cheeks: one (1986)

Tim Hardaway: one (1991)

Norm Nixon: one (1979)

Chris Paul: one (2008)

Kevin Porter: one (1979)

Terry Porter: one (1989)

Michael Ray Richardson: one (1979)

Pooh Richardson: one (1991)

Rod Strickland: one (1994)

Reggie Theus: one (1986)

Isiah Thomas: one (1986)

Deron Williams: one (2008)

So in over sixty total seasons of NBA history so far, only eight players have recorded multiple seasons of at least 15.0 points, 9.0 assists, and a .470 field goal percentage, and only five (Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson, Kevin Johnson, John Stockton, and Steve Nash) have posted at least three such seasons.

[It's A VC3!!!]

Vince carter is on it:D

[ThaRegul8r]

I didn't say he wasn't known for rejections, I said he wasn't known for rejections in comparison to Jordan. You need to work on reading comprehension.

My reading comprehension is just fine, thank you very much.



I don't know why you think West was some premium shot blocker... he was known for ballthieving not rejections.

There's your exact statement. "I don't know why you think West was some premium shot blocker... he was known for ballthieving not rejections." What am I not comprehending? You made an absolute statement, not a statement in comparison to Jordan. I gave you a quote and a Sports Illustrated story from that time that proved you wrong. Don't get mad just because you actually came across someone who could prove you wrong. As I said before, you could've just said, "Oh, I didn't know that," and there would have been no shame.




There are no reliable stats.:banghead: I think I've explained this twice already.

No, I was the one who told you the stats weren't even recorded until West's last year. Furthermore, if there were no reliable stats, you would have no basis for saying that Jordan was a better shotblocker than West and blocked shots at a higher frequency. Unless of course, you're going by the rationale that Jordan had to have done everything better than anyone else ever because he's Jordan? :rolleyes:


And by the way, stats that are not recorded as an official stat might as well be thrown out. There is no credibility to them lol.

Ah, so now you go from saying that West "blocked shots, but not with the frequency Jordan did," to "stats that are not recorded as an official stat might as well be thrown out" when the stats that are available to us don't corroborate your argument. I always find it interesting how people switch up when actual evidence doesn't support unsubstantiated assertions. If they had proven your point you sure as hell wouldn't be saying they weren't credible.

[Jailblazers7]

:confusedshrug:
Come on Kizzle. You basically argued against 5% of the points made, just a small little part of the 5-6 posts on "defining the Top 10 players" and besides that just said what you have been saying. And in case you didn't know, only the italicized are articles and the rest, a large chunk, are real argument paragraphs.


So, come on, you say "Why is Kevin Johnson so good?". And then when the argument is made, you only have something to say about 5% of it. Seems to me you are more ignoring why KJ is so good and then asking why is he he so good, doesn't make any sense.

So if you really don't think he's that good, try breaking all the arguments and then saying something before you go back to what you always say.

It's like saying "LBJ is overrated".
*Arguments are made of why LBJ is so good*.
Then you come, argue 5% of the arguments, and then say "LBJ is overrated"

Thats how bad you sound.

This post is a perfect example of why nobody likes to talk to you. You had one thought and dragged it out into a post that could have been said in 3 or 4 sentences.

[Glove_20]

This post is a perfect example of why nobody likes to talk to you. You had one thought and dragged it out into a post that could have been said in 3 or 4 sentences.

"Nobody likes to talk to me"? :oldlol:

This post is a perfect example why you are a ret@rd.


First of all most here don't get the point of a post right away, so I repeated it 3 times to make sure that everyone understands that post. Especially Kizzle who goes back to the same thing every 3 months like no argument has ever been made and like I was saying in that post.

[Chicago76]

Looking at them based upon ranks of others playing their positions:

Power Forwards: Wes Unseld is way too high. Same goes for Rodman. Let me ask it this way. If we were drafting players tomorrow would you really take either of these players over Lucas, Cunningham, Nowitzki at their positions or 20 spots ahead of a Bob Lanier? No way. Chambers at 97 is generous. Nance was a better player in every way except the scoring and Nance's scoring wasn't bad. I'd even take Terry Cummings over Chambers.

Small Forwards: Bernard King with healthy knees over his entire career is a top 50 player. King on bum knees for much of his career is maybe a top 70 or 80 player. English and Dantley put up great numbers, consistently, for a longer period of time than King. Vince Carter being within 5 spots either way of Dantley and Pierce is ridiculous.

Shooting guards: two guys that always seem overhyped due to their showmanship are Monroe and Maravich. When you crunch the numbers, both were great scorers on really bad teams. Maravich was little else. Monroe became a good 2nd/3rd option on good teams. Not top 50-60 material. Dumars is a little generous at 62. He had a couple of magical seasons and his defense was excellent (not in Moncrief's league, but close). He started slowly in the league and faded quickly, however. Would you rather have Joe Dumars' 7 good years or Reggie Miller's 14 good years? You've got to go w/ Miller's longevity.

Center: no way does Wallace belong on this list. Sikma yes. Wallace no. Reed at 29 is too high. He's pretty indistinguishable from Cowens, Lanier, Thurmond, Parish, and Gilmore. Even Mel Daniels really. He's at #29 while a lot of these guys are 20 - 40 spots lower. If you combined all of Bill Walton's minutes into healthy 36 minute a night seasons, he'd have 4.5 of them. The rest of his career (5.5 years)...it's like he's a 12th man. I don't care if every minute he played was MVP caliber, a 45% MVP, 55% DNP is not a top 50 player.

Point guards: there is no way on God's green earth that Isiah Thomas is the third best point guard to ever live. No way. He's easily a top 8 PG, maybe as high as 5, but I couldn't tell someone with a straight face he was the third best PG of all time. I won't argue the Cousy-Thomas comparison due to era differences though. Thomas was a good scoring PG, but he wasn't very efficient. He was a 20 ppg scorer in a fast era (17-18 ppg in Payton or Stockton's era). He was a turnover machine. Stockton was way more efficient as a scorer and assist man and Payton was a way better defender. Don't know if you want to call him a PG or a SG, but Frazier might be one of the most underrated guards of all time. Definite top 25 player.

[Hejira]

^ Good Post

Alot of your issues with the list can probably be explained by two factors, I think. One is the "greatest" vs "best" conundrum. I have trouble with it myself, but it basically weighs accomplishments (greatest) vs talent level/skills (best). Meaning, someone like Unseld who has an MVP and a title would rank higher than, say, Tracy McGrady who is a easily Top 50 in terms of overall talent and skillset. (and borderline Top 50 for accomplishments). That's just an example.

The other issue is that once you get past the stone cold locks - the definitive all-time greats - you reach a vast pool of players all who have an argument for a Top 100. You have posters who value different things in a player, have varying degrees of knowledge and interest in the sport, and different backgrounds. 99 out of 100 people might agree that Magic Johnson is a top 10 player. But it's alot harder to get your player in at spot #96 when the young fan is pushing for Dwyane Wade, the Gen-X fan is pushing for Chris Mullin, and the old-timer is pushing for Guy Rodgers.

So, it's hard to put a whole lot of stock in the end of the list. I think it's overall pretty good. No one sticks out as definitely undeserving. I don't really think Tom Chambers was better than Larry Nance, or Marques Johnson, or Bobby Dandridge (to name three). But they all are reasonable picks, imo.

[Chicago76]

I think the way to answer this is to judge what they managed to accomplish on the court at each players peak with longevity factored in. Answer the following question: If you were to start an NBA expansion team tomorrow, would you take A) Bill Walton, knowing that he would only be able to give you basically 3 seasons of ball in his 20s or B) a lesser talent at his peak, who could give you 36 minutes a night for 15 years like a Miller or a Dantley?

30 GMs out of 30 today would take option B, so I don't see how a Walton is rated as greater, better, whatever you want to call it.

I do agree with you on the difficulty here. There are team biases, era biases, peak value vs. longevity biases, etc. It is really difficult to assess players outside of the upper echelon, but that doesn't mean there were some significant misses. For example:

Player A: 18.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 2.1 apg, 47% FG
Player B: 17.1 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 2.6 apg, 55% FG

Player A played about 10% longer with both logging 30,000+ minutes, so no major longevity issues for either. Player A also made a couple of all-NBA teams after player B left the same team and he was asked to score 25 to 27 for two years. Player B generally played for the better teams and was more consistent. He also made three defensive teams, while player A was known to be a poor defender. Player A made one more all-star game (4 vs. 3).

Accolades aside, player B was a better rebounder, passer, defender, and shooter. He was also a comparable scorer considering he averaged 1 ppg less on 2 less field goal attempts per game. It might be close, but I can think of no reason player A (Tom Chambers) is in the top 100 and player B (Larry Nance) is not.

You could make a similar comparison between Dandridge/Johnson and Chambers. He just stuck out to me as probably the most out of place player on the list.

[Hejira]

Yeah, I would certainly take Larry Nance for my team over Tom Chambers. I am a big Nance fan. If he were playing today... doing those high-flying dunks and blocking 2-3 shots a game while putting up 19 and 8... there would be 100 threads about him on here. If Chambers doesn't have those two big late-career seasons with Phoenix where he averaged 25 and 27 a game, he doesn't come close to the Top 100. I think most would agree though that KJ was the best player on that team. I might also take Terry Cummings over Chambers.

To the first point, the Walton vs 15 year solid player... thats the classic peak vs career value argument. I actually disagree with you, I think most gms would take Walton knowing what they know (remember that among those 3-4 healthy seasons he brought his team a championship and was possibly on his way to another one in his MVP year). Like the saying goes, if you lose 50 games the following year they do not take down the Championship banner. I think Walton is definitely one of the hardest players in history to rank. Right up there with Sabonis and the early, early guys like Cousy, Schayes, Johnston, Mikan, Fulks, etc.

[Chicago76]

To the first point, the Walton vs 15 year solid player... thats the classic peak vs career value argument. I actually disagree with you, I think most gms would take Walton knowing what they know (remember that among those 3-4 healthy seasons he brought his team a championship and was possibly on his way to another one in his MVP year). Like the saying goes, if you lose 50 games the following year they do not take down the Championship banner. I think Walton is definitely one of the hardest players in history to rank. Right up there with Sabonis and the early, early guys like Cousy, Schayes, Johnston, Mikan, Fulks, etc.

Or even some of the other guys on the top 100 with short careers like Daniels, McGinnis, Reed, Hawkins, and Thompson.

Walton is the definitely an oddball player in more ways than one. Walton's stats will never fully explain his greatness at his peak but looking at them:

Age G MP FG% TRB AST BLK PTS
22 35 32.9 0.513 12.6 4.8 2.7 12.8
23 51 33.1 0.471 13.4 4.3 1.6 16.1
24 65 34.8 0.528 14.4 3.8 3.2 18.6
25 58 33.3 0.522 13.2 5 2.5 18.9
27 14 24.1 0.503 9 2.4 2.7 13.9
30 33 33.3 0.528 9.8 3.6 3.6 14.1

You've got to acknowledge the championship, but it's interesting that the guy only played 2000+ minutes once in his career (the championship year). The argument for him is that he was unlucky to be hurt, but when he's hurt all the time, I'm assuming that's what you would expect from a hypothetical Walton on a team you're building. The other side of the argument is that the championship year represented the perfect storm: Walton's only nearly healthy season, a good supporting cast including the underrated Lucas that did all the dirty work, a selfish Sixers team that underachieved in the final, an unpredictable 76/77 post-merger season that gave Portland the once in a lifetime chance of picking up perfect pieces from the ABA (Lucas and Twardzik).

A key point: yes, he won a title, but if we drafted a Walton clone tomorrow, that doesn't guarantee a championship. Walton gave his team one chance to win the title one time (which they did as the universe aligned for them that year--not to discount his performance, he was amazing). You could draft a Bill Walton clone today and you might miss that chance. Maybe the one year he plays 2000+ minutes is a year where he starts healthy and finishes hurt. You definitely wouldn't have the ABA to pick over to build a team overnight around him. Maybe it takes another three years without the merger, in which case Walton would already be washed up.

If you miss that one perfect chance when you draft him, you're in rebuilding mode with zero championships within 5 years. Compare that to a less brilliant but more durable player like Robert Parish. Clearly, Parish is a guy that benefits from playing with some real greats in Bird, McHale, and Johnson, but the point is, his longevity gives you the luxury of time to build a team with him. It might not give you a guaranteed title, but he gives you more chances at a title. As a GM, the odds might be in your favor taking longevity. A Walton might give you one 50-50 chance at a title. A Parish might give you 10 10% chances. If this is the case, you're actually less likely to walk away with no titles taking Robert Parish.

[72-10]

Walton's greatness is also elevated relative to most players because he always brought his best for the biggest games. That's evident from his Final Four and NBA Finals performances.

It also seems like he had a magnet for the ball. Later in his career, he'd get like 10 rebounds in 10 minutes of playing time.

[kshutts1]

wow.. Ben Wallace.. who the hell voted for him?

Anyway... KG, EVEN BEFORE THIS SEASON, should have been much higher. As a player, he is on par with Duncan and Malone.. just never won a title. But neither did Malone. If nothing else, put Malone and KG right next to eachother, but with KG being the "higher ranked" one.

[72-10]

Statistically Malone accomplished much more than Garnett has.

[CaNt Be ToUcHeD]

too many decent players from weak eras

[nycelt84]

I really think a brand new list should be compiled since some guys like Pierce have moved up and I don't see why Ben Wallace is on this list.

[Aidan]

Yeah, Wallets sucks now, but for a while he dominated on Defence.

Any player with 4 DPOYS deserves a spot.