One of the biggest misconceptions in the NBA

[VCMVP1551]

This has annoyed me for a long time. People always say "Shaq often showed up to camp out of shape"

From an article prior to the 1999-2000 season.


Without a solid partner under the boards, the 7'1" O'Neal has a heavy load to carry. Jackson wishes that weren't so literally true. Although he won't say what he thinks his center's ideal weight is, Jackson has made it clear that he thinks O'Neal played with too many pounds last season, and he wasn't thrilled when big Shaq reported to training camp roughly the size of a small shack -- not particularly flabby, just huge. O'Neal said he weighed in at 340 pounds, at least 10 heavier than last season. "The more I lift weights, the higher the number's going to be," O'Neal says. "I'm not really concerned about numbers. I'll bust any big man's butt no matter what I weigh."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2000/nba_preview/teams/lal/

So some people thought Shaq was too heavy heading into the 1999-2000 season.

Shaq at 340 pounds on media day 1999.
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg34/NBA7902/Shaq19992000.jpg

Shaq went on to have his best season and probably the greatest season a center has ever had. He led the league in scoring, finished second in rebounding, third in blocks and 1st in FG% while leading the Lakers to an NBA best 67 wins. He also led the Lakers to a 12-3 record in the games Kobe missed and he played. His numbers for the regular season were 29.7 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 3.8 apg, 3.0 bpg, 57.4 FG%, his playoff numbers were 30.7 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.1 apg, 2.4 bpg, 56.6 FG%, his Finals numbers were 38.0 ppg, 16.7 rpg, 2.3 apg, 2.7 bpg, 61.1 FG%. Of course he was awarded regular season and finals MVP but he also finished 2nd in defensive player of the year voting. Shaq also played over 40 minutes per game in the regular season, over 43 minutes in the playoffs and over 45 in the Finals.

The next season Shaq was clearly a bit heavier despite it being reported he was down to 325 pounds. He was probably in the 350-360 range but continued to dominate the league.

He finished 3rd in scoring, 3rd in rebounding, 5th in blocks, 1st in FG% and led the Lakers to 56 wins while the Western Conference was as tough as it's ever been. In the regular season he averaged 28.7 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 3.7 apg, 2.8 bpg, 57.2 FG%, in the playoffs 30.4 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.2 apg, 2.4 bpg, 55.5 FG% and in the Finals he averaged 33.0 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 4.8 apg, 3.4 bpg and 57.2 FG% against defensive player of the year Dikembe Mutombo. Shaq also led the Lakers to a 15-1 record in the playoffs which is the best in NBA history and of course he won Finals MVP and the title. He was robbed of regular season MVP as well. The fact that he finished 3rd in voting that year is the single biggest travesty in NBA history. He played 39.5 minutes per game during the regular season over 42 during the playoffs and 45 mpg in the Finals.

In 2002 during the playoffs it was reported that he weighed 382 pounds. Yet he was still dominating the league. People joked about his weight and thought he was too heavy then too. Here is an example.


Heck, one scout says O'Neal weighed in at 382 before the playoffs, which would make him the heaviest athlete in major professional sports. Hockey's Steve McKenna is officially 255 and baseball's Calvin Picketing tips in at 278. The blubberiest NFL player, Cowboys lineman Aaron Gibson, is 380 pounds, making him at least worthy of the same scale as O'Neal's. Little wonder Burger King's Shaq pack is a bacon cheeseburger, fries (with melted cheese for dipping) and a Coke, not a grilled chicken sandwich, a side of arugula and a Crystal Light.

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-11372454_ITM

Shaq at 382 pounds during the playoffs in 2002.
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg34/NBA7902/Shaq20012002.jpg


During the regular season Shaq finished second in scoring and 1st in FG% averaging 27.2 ppg, 10.7 rpg, 3.0 apg, 2.0 bpg, 57.9 FG%, in the playoffs he averaged 28.5 ppg, 12.6 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.5 bpg, 52.9 FG% and in the Finals he averaged 36.3 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 3.8 apg, 2.75 bpg and 59.5 FG%. Once again he won the title and Finals MVP and while his minutes were cut to just over 36 per game during the regular season, he averaged nearly 41 for the playoffs and over 41 in the Finals. He also led the Lakers to 58 wins which was good for 2nd in the league and he finished 3rd in MVP voting.

I don't know how much Shaq weighed in 2002-2003 but he looked bigger than he did the previous season when he was 382 pounds. That season he averaged 27.5 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 3.1 apg, 2.4 bpg, 57.4 FG% and a career best 62.2 FT%. He also played nearly 38 mpg and the only reason the team only won 50 games was because Samaki Walker and Slava Medvedenko started a lot of games, 6 players on the team shot below 40% and their older role players declined a lot. The team was 45-22 in the games Shaq played. The Lakers also beat the higher seeded Timberwolves in the first round and gave the Spurs a pretty tough series in the second round. If Robert Horry's shot didn't rim out in game 5 then the Lakers most likely would have won their 4th straight title. And that was with Shaq at around 400 pounds that season.

Shaq at 332 pounds
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wL6CYWJcx_I
http://youtube.com/watch?v=AMX1FGwyr38
http://youtube.com/watch?v=R6vmwGwlq1Q
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Dy-0RWbbzd8

Shaq at 340 pounds
http://youtube.com/watch?v=WRZLS-cMTtA
http://youtube.com/watch?v=xz6EmBWGQnE
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8w77-64MXC0
http://youtube.com/watch?v=q6XBAZglfmE

Shaq at 350-360 pounds
http://youtube.com/watch?v=aCvTmmj6QUo

Shaq at 382 pounds
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6pqww6GBHcE
http://youtube.com/watch?v=5Eu2NrAqQr4

Shaq at around 400 pounds
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kVsWuHblBwU

So if Shaq was by far the best player every season from 1999-2000 to 2001-2002 then how was he out of shape considering he still had his athletic ability? I don't see how the most athletic and dominant big man could be out of shape.

Yet another misconception about Shaq. Instead of appreciating what he's done everyone just looks to try to diminish what he's done.

[Myth]

Yet another misconception about Shaq. Instead of appreciating what he's done everyone just looks to try to diminish what he's done.

Looks like you have misconceptions as well :hammerhead:

[lacasner]

Very strong arguements can be made that everytime shaq made a play on offense, he committed an offensive foul. People bash shaq because of this and because he isn't particularly talented, just gargantuan.

[VCMVP1551]

Very strong arguements can be made that everytime shaq made a play on offense, he committed an offensive foul. People bash shaq because of this and because he isn't particularly talented, just gargantuan.

That was quite possibly the dumbest thing I've read on this board.

[shadow]

A couple of things-
1. There's a difference betwee mucle mass and fat. "Flab" implies fat, which what being out of shape does generally.

2. As he get's older and his body wears down, that extra weight becomes harder to carry. Plus when you have more fat and less muscles compared to before, it becomes worse.

I get you're trying to defend shaq, but I think the reason his critics lashed out at him was becuase had he kept himself in shape he would've probably had an even more successful career than what he's ended up with.

Finalyl if you still don't believe he was out of shape when playing for the Lakers, compare him in LA vs his first two years in Miami when he was motivated. There was a huge difference.

[VCMVP1551]

Finalyl if you still don't believe he was out of shape when playing for the Lakers, compare him in LA vs his first two years in Miami when he was motivated. There was a huge difference.

In his prime in Los Angeles Shaq was averaging 27-30 ppg, 10-14 rpg, 3-4 apg, 2-3 bpg and shooting 57-58% on championship teams and championship contenders.

Shaq never approached that level with Miami. it's true he deserved the MVP in 2005 and he won a title in 2006 but in Los Angeles he was on a whole different level. Look at Shaq at 340 pounds, he doesn't look like he has much fat at all.

[Chicago76]

So if Shaq was by far the best player every season from 1999-2000 to 2001-2002 then how was he out of shape considering he still had his athletic ability? I don't see how the most athletic and dominant big man could be out of shape.

Yet another misconception about Shaq. Instead of appreciating what he's done everyone just looks to try to diminish what he's done.

He still had his athletic ability because Shaq, even at his weight, is still an incredible athlete. That doesn't mean he couldn't have shown up in better shape to be even more dominant than he was, which was always the knock on him.

[Interminator]

Very strong arguements can be made that everytime shaq made a play on offense, he committed an offensive foul. People bash shaq because of this and because he isn't particularly talented, just gargantuan.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Scott Pippen]

Very strong arguements can be made that everytime shaq made a play on offense, he committed an offensive foul. People bash shaq because of this and because he isn't particularly talented, just gargantuan.

:confusedshrug:

[SCY]

Shaq did get away with a lot on offense, but it kind of evens out considering how defenders were allowed to play him.

[Younggrease]

Having watched the Lakers and heard commentary on many games..I often heard the listed weights on Shaq were incorrect in many instances.


I don't see how the most athletic and dominant big man could be out of shape.

another ignorant statement....Anyone could be out of shape and Shaq started at least one season where he could not sustain his normal level of energy for full games. You could see him get really tired as games went on. But if your werent watching and just looking back on stats from 5 years ago instead of watching the games you wouldnt see that. You would just have youtube highlights, listed weights(which are never very accurate), and media day pictures

[highwhey]

Imagine stepping in a European sports car weighing 400 LBS :eek: That's if your head can fit.

[Jimmy2k8]

averaged 27.5 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 3.1 apg, 2.4 bpg, 57.4 FG% and a career best 62.2 FT%. He also played nearly 38 mpg and the only reason the team only won 50 games was because Samaki Walker and Slava Medvedenko started a lot of games, 6 players on the team shot below 40% and their older role players declined a lot.


erm no. You're forgetting that Kobe Bryant was also on that team.

[VCMVP1551]

Having watched the Lakers and heard commentary on many games..I often heard the listed weights on Shaq were incorrect in many instances.

Yes that's why I listed him as his weights reported during the training camp as well as the weigh in prior to the 2002 playoffs, NOT his 315 listing.



another ignorant statement....Anyone could be out of shape and Shaq started at least one season where he could not sustain his normal level of energy for full games. You could see him get really tired as games went on. But if your werent watching and just looking back on stats from 5 years ago instead of watching the games you wouldnt see that. You would just have youtube highlights, listed weights(which are never very accurate), and media day pictures

I watched Shaq dominate the league for a 3rd straight season in 2001-2002. His problems weren't being out of shape but when he put off the toe surgery and it caused him to miss the first few weeks of the 2002-2003 season. He didn't struggle at all as a player in 2003 or 2004 it was more his attitude prior to 2002-2003.

Now you also have proven once again that you're a f*cking moron and didn't notice that Shaq wasn't listed 340 in 2000 nor was he ever listed near 382 pounds. Those were what were reported as his actual weights.

His listed weight was 315 in 1999-2000 and 2001-2002.


erm no. You're forgetting that Kobe Bryant was also on that team.

What does that have to do with anything? I said the only reason that team didn't win more than they did was because of the garbage supporting cast. Kobe was a star at that point not part of the supporting cast.

[Jimmy2k8]

Then you misled me then.

[Jasper]

why would anyone start a thread - stating a players weight - showing vid's and not having PROOF that the player was at that weight ?

Then stating that it was only reported .....

YES SHAQ was very good , maybe great - but let's remember this guy was the biggest big man playing , knowing exactly how to use his body and score points while not getting offensive fouls called.

Can we not make a puzzle out of a thread so we can discuss it ?

(MY post isn't complicated nor a puzzle to mislead - read it again) :oldlol:

[VCMVP1551]

why would anyone start a thread - stating a players weight - showing vid's and not having PROOF that the player was at that weight ?

Shaq and Phil Jackson both said the 340 reported weight was correct for 1999-2000. As Shaq stated though he thought he needed to be even stronger for all of the hard fouls he takes and nobody can argue with the results. If he was 340 in 1999-2000 then the 382 number for 2001-2002 seems right too.


YES SHAQ was very good , maybe great - but let's remember this guy was the biggest big man playing , knowing exactly how to use his body and score points while not getting offensive fouls called.


That's my point. If he used his size to his advantage then what was the problem with his weight?

[TMac&Luther]

A couple of things-
1. There's a difference betwee mucle mass and fat. "Flab" implies fat, which what being out of shape does generally.

2. As he get's older and his body wears down, that extra weight becomes harder to carry. Plus when you have more fat and less muscles compared to before, it becomes worse.

I get you're trying to defend shaq, but I think the reason his critics lashed out at him was becuase had he kept himself in shape he would've probably had an even more successful career than what he's ended up with.

Finally if you still don't believe he was out of shape when playing for the Lakers, compare him in LA vs his first two years in Miami when he was motivated. There was a huge difference.

Yep, basically what this guy just said...

end thread.

I was about to come in and type the same thing, but he saved me the trouble.......when your young, you can get by with carrying a couple of more LBs, but as you age if you want to stay a force and remain a top player you have to stay in tip top shape.........notice how Shaq started picking up nagging injuries the last couple of years?

Shaq didn't keep himself in shape, that's the whole reason why he went from Mr. badass to a shell of himself pretty much overnight. If Shaq ran on a track as much as he ran his mouth he'd still be kicking ass and taking names.

[VCMVP1551]

Shaq didn't keep himself in shape, that's the whole reason why he went from Mr. badass to a shell of himself pretty much overnight. If Shaq ran on a track as much as he ran his mouth he'd still be kicking ass and taking names.

I disagree. Even at Shaq's rookie weight of 303 or his prime weight of 340, that's a lot of weight to carry around but to keep be at his strongest he needed to atleast be that size. He had a lot of injuries from 1995-1998 when he was in the 330 range as well, Shaq's just a huge guy regardless and even if they're in shape such big men are prone to injuries.

Shaq also didn't really decline overnight. He went from 23-10 as an MVP candidate to 20 and 9 on a title team and then 17 and 7 the last year but still an all-star level player when he was healthy. In 2006-2007 Shaq led the Heat to a 16-7 record without Wade while averaging 19 and 8 in that stretch and shooting 62%.

A lot of big men also have big declines in their mid 30's. Look at Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson and Moses Malone.

[Day La Ghetto]

I disagree. Even at Shaq's rookie weight of 303 or his prime weight of 340, that's a lot of weight to carry around but to keep be at his strongest he needed to atleast be that size. He had a lot of injuries from 1995-1998 when he was in the 330 range as well, Shaq's just a huge guy regardless and even if they're in shape such big men are prone to injuries.

Shaq also didn't really decline overnight. He went from 23-10 as an MVP candidate to 20 and 9 on a title team and then 17 and 7 the last year but still an all-star level player when he was healthy. In 2006-2007 Shaq led the Heat to a 16-7 record without Wade while averaging 19 and 8 in that stretch and shooting 62%.

A lot of big men also have big declines in their mid 30's. Look at Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson and Moses Malone.

shaq wasn't in good shape in the 2002-2003 season of the top of my head. watch the games, stats and atrributes dont begin to show how he played. you just dont seem to want to stop being ignorant towards this, in all your threads.

[VCMVP1551]

shaq wasn't in good shape in the 2002-2003 season of the top of my head. watch the games, stats and atrributes dont begin to show how he played. you just dont seem to want to stop being ignorant towards this, in all your threads.

He was still a dominant player that season. I've always been a huge Shaq fan so I've watched him every chance I got(I still do) and the problem with that season was by the time Shaq came back from his toe surgery the Lakers had a lot of ground to make up and they needed to develop chemistry while making up ground. As a result Shaq and Kobe could only get them the 5th seed and a 50-32 record. That was Shaq's fault for delaying his toe surgery but it had nothing to do with what kind of shape he was in. Just a selish thing that made no sense. The team started off 3-9 without Shaq for the first 3 weeks of the season and at Christmas were still just 11-19.

[Loki]

YES SHAQ was very good , maybe great

:oldlol:

Shaq is one of the 7 greatest players, and one of the 3-4 most effective players at his peak, to ever play the game. He's not "maybe" great -- he's flat out great.

[VCMVP1551]

:oldlol:

Shaq is one of the 7 greatest players, and one of the 3-4 most effective players at his peak, to ever play the game. He's not "maybe" great -- he's flat out great.

That's exactly why I often make threads about Shaq. People act like he was just another star but he was hands down the best player of the post Jordan era and as you said without a doubt at the very least a top 7 player of all-time, if not higher.

[72-10]

That's exactly why I often make threads about Shaq. People act like he was just another star but he was hands down the best player of the post Jordan era and as you said without a doubt at the very least a top 7 player of all-time, if not higher.

Disagree. 8-10 slot for sure. MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Oscar, West, Dr. J, all arguably did more for the game. Hakeem is on Shaq's ass as well.

[Junny]

Disagree. 8-10 slot for sure. MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Oscar, West, Dr. J, all arguably did more for the game. Hakeem is on Shaq's ass as well.

Where's BULLS/5235 to comment on Russell being on this list?

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Nobody's arguing Shaq wasn't a monster in his prime, and not just because he's a total freak.
The point is that Shaq could have been even greater than what he was if he kept himself in shape.
It's not just about stats, he was good enough to put up incredible numbers, but the commitment on defence wasn't the best often because he needed to save energy to achieve the numbers you're praising.

Shaq should be goat material, instead it's arguable if you can put him above Hakeem or Duncan in the big picture, and likely Duncan is going to clearly surpass him when it's all said and done.

[VCMVP1551]

Disagree. 8-10 slot for sure. MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Oscar, West, Dr. J, all arguably did more for the game. Hakeem is on Shaq's ass as well.

I don't see how Oscar and Dr. J could be ahead of Shaq.

As for Oscar he never won a title as the best player while Shaq won 3 and then another as a second option. Shaq won 1 MVP and deserved 3 while Oscar never won one. Shaq also won 2 scoring titles something Oscar also never did.

As for Dr. J he was never at the level Shaq was. He never won a title as the best player, never won a scoring title and never dominated the game like Shaq did.

West was an incredible player too and it's not that crazy to have him ahead of Shaq but I don't really see how he could be ahead of Shaq. Shaq won more and was more dominant.



Nobody's arguing Shaq wasn't a monster in his prime, and not just because he's a total freak.
The point is that Shaq could have been even greater than what he was if he kept himself in shape.
It's not just about stats, he was good enough to put up incredible numbers, but the commitment on defence wasn't the best often because he needed to save energy to achieve the numbers you're praising.

Shaq was an excellent defender during the 3peat and then again in Miami for a while. He was the anchor of some of the best defensive teams, one of the best shot blockers and probably the most intimidating player ever. Nobody wanted to drive hard to the basket with Shaq protecting the paint.

Even today Shaq's only weakness is defending the pick and roll. He still does an excellent job defending many of the top big men like Duncan, Garnett and Dirk and he can help out and block shots. He doesn't defend Dirk and Garnett much because they don't play his position but when he is asked to defend them he does a great job.


Shaq should be goat material, instead it's arguable if you can put him above Hakeem or Duncan in the big picture, and likely Duncan is going to clearly surpass him when it's all said and done.

Hakeem has a case against anyone for how much he dominated both ends.

For anyone to suggest it's probable Duncan will pass Shaq is laughable. Duncan has still won the same but was nowhere near the individual player Shaq was and he's not even as good as Shaq was at the same age anymore.

[Sir Charles]

Who gives a **** about Shaq`s weight:rolleyes: . Its not like he is going to go try out some Gucci clothes and model:hammerhead: . For all I`ve got to say a player that is over 32 years of age usually has a harder time loosing weight and with Shaq`s thick bulky musculed contexture even harder! (its much easier for thin contextured players to loose weight).

Charles Barkley, who was only 6`4 1/2 ft or so (1.94/95 mt) had only 3 or 4 seasons in his whole career with his ideal weight of 252 lbs (which he rarely played with). The rest of the time he was over 260 lbs and sometimes bordering the 280 lbs mark.. He entered the league at close to 300 lbs and in college he played center at 310 lbs.

Did is weight or "in his case" lack of height for the PF Position obstruct him from kicking ass and dominating? Nope :)

[Loki]

Disagree. 8-10 slot for sure. MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Oscar, West, Dr. J, all arguably did more for the game. Hakeem is on Shaq's ass as well.

Ranking players is not about who "did more" for the game -- it's about who was greater and who was better. Dr. J and Oscar at the very least (West as well imo) are not -- or at least should not be -- ranked higher than Shaq.

[32MJ32]

Good thread. Really good thread. Shaq is lost in the shuffle a lot for some reason. The fact he has 1 MVP to show for 12+ seasons of dominance is ridiculous. As far as I am concerned, every Laker fan should hold him in extremely high regard.

However, I take issue with your seperation of "toe surgery" and "weight issues" with regard to "showing up out of shape." Showing up out of shape is exactly that - not being able to play at full capacity or at all. In 02-03, Shaq was definitely out of shape, totally due to his own stubborness/stupidity/Shaqness. The fact it was his toe and not his gut really has no relevance.

[VCMVP1551]

Who gives a **** about Shaq`s weight:rolleyes: . Its not like he is going to go try out some Gucci clothes and model:hammerhead: . For all I`ve got to say a player that is over 32 years of age usually has a harder time loosing weight and with Shaq`s thick bulky musculed contexture even harder! (its much easier for thin contextured players to loose weight).

Charles Barkley, who was only 6`4 1/2 ft or so (1.94/95 mt) had only 3 or 4 seasons in his whole career with his ideal weight of 252 lbs (which he rarely played with). The rest of the time he was over 260 lbs and sometimes bordering the 280 lbs mark.. He entered the league at close to 300 lbs and in college he played center at 310 lbs.

Did is weight or "in his case" lack of height for the PF Position obstruct him from kicking ass and dominating? Nope :)

Exactly my point. If he was the best player in the league then how wa she out of shape. Define out of shape. He was in good enough shape to dominate every player in the league.

Barkley at 285 pounds was one of the best athletes in the game and it's amazing how he was the best PF in the league despite being only 6'6".

[Kobe_6/8]

Very strong arguements can be made that everytime shaq made a play on offense, he committed an offensive foul. People bash shaq because of this and because he isn't particularly talented, just gargantuan.

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/social_assets/nba/random/ShaqShake.gif

[ralph_i_el]

Very strong arguements can be made that everytime shaq made a play on offense, he committed an offensive foul. People bash shaq because of this and because he isn't particularly talented, just gargantuan.
People that gargantuan don't move like Shaq. Nobody that size has ever moved like Shaq.