Pacers trade Jermaine O'Neal to Raptors for TJ Ford in 6-player deal [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

bjtrdff

06-23-2008, 10:35 AM

Just read this on the blog of a basketball writer here in Toronto. Who knows how much legitimacy to it there is, especially given that we still to see what Bargs can do in his third season, but it's interesting, and something to spark discussion.

Apparently, the Raps and Pacers are looking at TJ and Rasho (and possibly the 17th pick) to indiana for JO.

I'm personally not a huge fan of this one, mostly due to JOs health. If he came back this season, and played 80 games as something similar to his old self, then the Raps would have the best front court in the east, and certainly one of the best in the league. However, what are the odds of that.

JO also makes a **** ton of money, although his deal expires after the 08-09 season, so the Raps would be fine salary cap wise.

From the Pacers end of things, I think this would be a fantastic deal for them. They get a big expirer (8.4 mil from Rasho), but unlike the proposed Cavs deal for Wally, they also get a young starting PG to finally ditch Jamal Tinsley, and get rid of Jermaine's huge deal.

Thoughts?

daballa13

06-23-2008, 10:38 AM

I don't know what to think, JO has been garbage lately.

Maniak

06-23-2008, 10:39 AM

Hes too risky to take imo, I'd waaaaaay rather get a big man from the draft that we don't constantly have to worry about health than O'neal.

RapsFan

06-23-2008, 10:39 AM

This has been talked about a lot already in the Raptor Forum. I don't think there is anything to it.

If it did happen, it's a no brainer. He'd be perfect to match with Bosh up front. He'll be healthy as he'll be playing for a new deal (money has that impact on injury prone guys). He's MILES ahead of any big taken in the draft.

Maniak

06-23-2008, 10:40 AM

and bjtrdff, did you steal that avatar or is that yours? i know ive seen somebody else on ISH with one exactly like that...

bjtrdff

06-23-2008, 10:41 AM

This has been talked about a lot already in the Raptor Forum. I don't think there is anything to it.

Was the first info that got out about it this morning from Doug Smith's blog, or earlier, because I hadn't seen anything.

I think there is likely something to it, in that I don't think it's just completely made up. But I think the same could be said about 5 or 6 deals that BC is trying to engineer for Ford (Diaw, or whoever).

Phesto

06-23-2008, 11:17 AM

I wouldn't mind this deal for a few reasons:

-JO has been unhappy in Indiana lately and I think a change of scenery might invigorate him and might even help him stay healthy.

-He's a legit allstar and can play centre. He has good interior defense and a much better offensive game than Rasho (who would be sad to see go).

As far as salary implications, that's a non-issue as we'd be trading away a similar amount of salary.

bballnoob

06-23-2008, 11:23 AM

Big gamble but I'd be willing to take it. Ford alone carries similar risks with concern to his back. O'Neil fills the void for:

-a second scorer
-improves interior defence
-rebounding

Draft a good swingman with the possibility of AP leaving and that's a hell of a good halfcourt team.

Skywalker

06-23-2008, 11:25 AM

Def not do this deal.

If we can get Diaw for Ford and a solid C propsect with the 17th Id much rather that.

If Parker leaves Diaw would be nice to have then we could play Kaps at 2.

danumber88

06-23-2008, 11:29 AM

Ill take if its Tj Ford and Rasho, dont wanan give away a #17th pick..

bballnoob

06-23-2008, 11:37 AM

Edit: Sorry double post

bballnoob

06-23-2008, 11:39 AM

Def not do this deal.

If we can get Diaw for Ford and a solid C propsect with the 17th Id much rather that.

If Parker leaves Diaw would be nice to have then we could play Kaps at 2.

I'm not sure Diaw would thrive here. I'm probably underestimating Toronto's coaching staff but I don't think they would utilize him as well as Phoenix did in his breakout year. I'd pretty much be "let the PG do whatever" all over again. To be fair though, Calderon does a good job distrubuting the ball to everyone (sometimes to a fault).

Diaw IMO doesn't bring what the Raptor's truly need. Rebounding from the 3 position we have already in Moon. I don't think ball distribution will ever be a problem with either of our PG's. He barely gets to the FT line which is a real sore spot for the team. Finally, even if he does reach his peak numbers, I still wouldn't classify him as a second scorer.

Also a Calderon/Kapono backcourt would be ugly as sin defending other teams.

GOBB

06-23-2008, 11:50 AM

GOBB

06-23-2008, 11:50 AM

Why does anyone want Diaw? Dude is a French Vanilla ice cream cone.

Skywalker

06-23-2008, 12:06 PM

true statements about JO but I cant stand his injuries and his 40% shooting.

Id consider the gamble but really they should try to hold on to the 17th pick.

bjtrdff

06-23-2008, 12:09 PM

Why not? JO provides defense, rebounding, interior prescence. Gamble. Its the NBA. You're not going anywhere far with Raaaaaaaaaasho and TJ any damn way. The weakness for Toronto has been what JO strengths are. F*ck it, he does make alot, he has been injured. Roll the dice or stay the soft ass team you are. You wont find help in the draft and you damn sure wont find it via trade.

Show me a better trade rumor out there and I'll gladly STFU.

To be fair, I think that the Raps could put together a lot of decent trade packages. TJ is still a starting PG in a league where lots of teams need one, and the Raps can put together 14 mil in expiring contracts, which as we've seen can go far. The Raps are also going to be sitting pretty on a lot of cap room in the next couple of years.

Like I said, if JO was healthy, I think that this would at the very least be very interesting. The Raps would have their way with most teams in the front court, and they would have all star calibre players at 3 spots. The trade would also look better for Toronto if they can keep the 17th pick and get a guy with potential, or draft their backup PG.

However, it all depends on what is out there trade wise, which is always hard to know at this time.

ukplayer4

06-23-2008, 12:24 PM

good trade for both teams, if this isnt a legit rumour, it damn well should be.

power works

06-23-2008, 12:28 PM

power works

06-23-2008, 12:30 PM

Here are the links:

http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/2008/06/23/raps_oneal_rumour/

http://www.indycornrows.com/2008/6/23/556979/jermaine-o-neal-to-toronto

bballnoob

06-23-2008, 12:34 PM

IF JO is healthy this is a no-brainer deal. It addresses all the Raptor needs in one trade -- rebounding/interior toughness + legit 19-20 pt scorer. He makes a ton of dough and the Raps will be on the hook for 2 more years @ 22 mil :eek: . But if he can put the team on the same level as the Pistons or Celtics. It's worth it.

Makes you wonder if this trade goes down how it affects Bargnani. BC staked his rep on him. Is he on the way out?

Can BC then parlay Bargs (and expirers) into that near all-star wingman?

I don't think it would automatically kick Bargs out of Toronto. The Raps would have 1-2 years with JO assuming he's here and we do not deal him while he is an expirer. Bargnani has only shown so far that he is pretty much a 6th man type of player as he cannot stay on the floor long enough defensively. Hopefully that window of lesser expectations on him being the second scorer would help him.

It's too bad Garbo is gone, he would have been an ideal contract to match up the salaries without giving up AP (the deal needs around 5 mill to match up).

Qwyjibo

06-23-2008, 12:37 PM

A healthy Jermaine O'Neal would be a perfect fit in Toronto. No longer would Bosh be the only player in the paint (unless Rasho is playing) rebounding getting knocked around.

If the Raptors don't show signs of winning or being a true contender then Bosh is gone in 2 years. That would cripple the franchise and the Raptors would be rebuilding from nothing once again. The Raptors are going to need to make a risky move at some point and this might just be it. Just make damn sure they have doctors check over Jermaine well.

I don't like including the 17th pick in such a deep draft but you can let a mid 1st rounder be deal breaker. This trade wouldn't even drain the Raptors of all their trade assets either as they'd still have Andrea Bargnani to shop around. Then again, calling him a trade "asset" might be stretching it.

Oh and Diaw sucks. Anyone who wants him in Toronto for any deal including TJ Ford should be shot.

v-unit

06-23-2008, 12:37 PM

I'm actually have some ties with Toronto and Team Canada, and I know that their freaking out about big men at the moment. They are constantly having trainings and workouts with college big men, big men from top teams to mid majors. Their going to get rid of Primo and Rasho for sure, it's just a matter of who, not when.

I wouldn't mind Jermaine O'Neal. It seems like it could be a new beginning for him, like Shaq and Grant Hill. They both changed their games to fit in with the team (Shaq worked much harder, G.Hill didn't get injured) so that could really be a solid possibility. In the end though, I would want the Raps to get someone young.

He would fit perfectly with the Raps, no question about it.

Skywalker

06-23-2008, 12:54 PM

Oh and Diaw sucks. Anyone who wants him in Toronto for any deal including TJ Ford should be shot.

ehhhhhhhhhhhh

TJ or Calderon is out and whoever it is, will not return a superstar. Diaw for Ford is DEEEcent.

HaNdLe ThE RoCk

06-23-2008, 01:25 PM

Diaw is soft.

If you think this trade is dumb for Toronto then your an idiot.

O'neil
Bosh
Moon
Parker
Calderon

looks better then having Diaw and O'neil and Bosh would beast the East.

bjtrdff

06-23-2008, 01:26 PM

Diaw is soft.

If you think this trade is dumb for Toronto then your an idiot.

O'neil
Bosh
Moon
Parker
Calderon

looks better then having Diaw and O'neil and Bosh would beast the East.

No one says that a prime, healthy JO would make this a bad deal. That's not the case. The guy has averaged 50 games a season over the last 4, and makes 20 million a year.

So no, if you think this trade is dumb for Toronto, you are not an idiot.

bonez26

06-23-2008, 02:09 PM

No one says that a prime, healthy JO would make this a bad deal. That's not the case. The guy has averaged 50 games a season over the last 4, and makes 20 million a year.

So no, if you think this trade is dumb for Toronto, you are not an idiot.

Actually if you see the contractual agreement it would leave the Raps with a tonne of money in the offseason of '10 (ie's FA's- Lebron, Bosh, and Wade)...in no way harming their flexibility.

IMHO you have to show Bosh your willing to go out and get a star to go along with him and help him out...especially one that bangs and can play C...and is a shotblocking threat. I roll the dice with this. Better than any other trade right now. Especially the Diaw trade. We don't need another soft non rebounder.

InspiredLebowski

06-23-2008, 02:25 PM

That's a pretty solid deal, for both teams. Toronto fans are worrying about JO's health, when you're dealing TJ Ford? Who doesn't fit now that Calderon's emerged? Really?

JO IS healthy. He played the last 15 or so games and has no sort of injury. Right now. Is Ford healthy?

As a Pacers fan, I'd like a deal like Hinrich and Gooden for JO A LOT more, but I wouldn't be mad at this one either.

Beebo

06-23-2008, 02:44 PM

Trading an injury prone player(TJ Ford) for another injury prone player(Jermaine O'Neil). Fair deal I would say.

dffsaf9

06-23-2008, 02:49 PM

according to the fan590 Toronto sports radio, Jermaine Oneal may soon be a Raptor for TJ Ford, Rasho Nesterovic, and 17th pick. Also there was a column written today about the rumor, which also provides foreshadow that Bryan Colangelo and the Raptors could be up to something big.

It’s all very tentative and quite up in the air but the Raptors have already investigated the possibility of a blockbuster trade that would net them a veteran – yet expensive – NBA centre.

According to league sources, Toronto has had talks with the Indiana Pacers about acquiring 29-year-old Jermaine O’Neal for a package that would include T.J. Ford, Rasho Nestervoic and, perhaps, the 17th pick in this week’s draft.

The talks are not the point where any deal is imminent and a deal is certainly not assured but the source said the Raptors are aggressively trying to move Ford and O’Neal is one of their targets.

Toronto also still has serious interest in forward Boris Diaw of the Phoenix Suns and is in talks with at least three other teams for trades of a similar magnitude.

For some reason, I've got a sneaking suspicion that this could be a biggie, lots of rumors and a big deal before the draft. Nothing concrete at the moment but just a feeling.

personally if I'm Indiana, I'm all over this trade, that's amazing value for Jermaine Oneal. Despite being heavily outshined by Jose Calderon, TJ Ford had a very good season shooting career high 47% FG, while being among PG league leaders in Per, plus he's still 25. Rasho is a big expirer, in a Pau Gasol type deal he'd be the main component. Plus the 17# pick in a deep draft, WOW!

For Toronto this deal doesn't make much sense, aside from clearing cap space in a couple years. JO and Raptors are in a different phase, he's a 29 year old injury prone, past all-star, Toronto is a young up-coming team still adding pieces and trying to find an identity.

TheAnswer

06-23-2008, 02:50 PM

Duplicate thread

Molson

06-23-2008, 02:53 PM

JO hasn't been healthy in 5 YEARS. His last 4 years he played 42, 69, 51, and 44 games. That is AWFUL. If you factor that there are lso "recovery" games when a guy tries to get his wind back and rust out, that's even more games he wasn't an impact player.

I love JO's game. He is the Rebounder and Shot Blocker that the Raps need and can also put in 19-20 ppg. He is a perfect fit, but the reality is he is 30 yrs old, hasn't played a full season in 4 years and his body is not getting healthier with age.

At 44M/2 yrs, this guy really scares me. The only advantage i see in this trade is that we would have an enormous amount of salary space for 2010 however a lot of teams are prepping for that as well so the question will be can we get players to come up north.

I really hope BC keeps shopping. I am also more inclined to do this trade without the 17th pick because of how deep the draft is this year but i think Indiana is specifically shopping for a second pick so i would be surprised if they did this deal without the pick being included.

JordanL

06-23-2008, 02:54 PM

That's a LOT of value for Oneal

Beebo

06-23-2008, 02:54 PM

For Toronto this deal doesn't make much sense, aside from clearing cap space in a couple years. JO and Raptors are in a different phase, he's a 29 year old injury prone, past all-star, Toronto is a young up-coming team still adding pieces and trying to find an identity.

I don't get what you're trying to say, JO would provide the Raptors with a ton of experience and leadership. A froncourt with Bosh and a healthy JO would be deadly. But ya, the only downside is that he's injury prone.

InspiredLebowski

06-23-2008, 02:56 PM

Interminator

06-23-2008, 02:57 PM

I don't get what you're trying to say, JO would provide the Raptors with a ton of experience and leadership. A froncourt with Bosh and a healthy JO would be deadly. But ya, the only downside is that he's injury prone.
Not really,but I could see where you're getting at.

I still believe Toronto should trade for Eddy Curry at C.

Beebo

06-23-2008, 02:58 PM

Beebo

06-23-2008, 02:59 PM

Not really,but I could see where you're getting at.

I still believe Toronto should trade for Eddy Curry at C.

Eddy Curry??? You ****ting me??? Raptors should stay away from any Knick players.

2LeTTeRS

06-23-2008, 03:03 PM

Not really,but I could see where you're getting at.

I still believe Toronto should trade for Eddy Curry at C.

You serious? JO is one of about 5 big men in this league who can anchor a great defensive team. He's an injury risk but he'd solve the problems they had in Toronto without him. If this is all it takes to get JO we should make a move for him here in Charlotte, a package of J Rich, Adam Morrison and Matt Carrol isn't equal value for him but its better than the Raps offer.

shok

06-23-2008, 03:04 PM

But ya, the only downside is that he's injury prone.

I was under the impression that JO has not been healthy on paper due to the fact that his team is playing for nothing. I strongly believe JO will suddenly become healthy for a team that has a reason to play.

JPR

06-23-2008, 03:06 PM

Beebo

06-23-2008, 03:06 PM

I was under the impression that JO has not been healthy on paper due to the fact that his team is playing for nothing. I strongly believe JO will suddenly become healthy for a team that has a reason to play.

Your saying he might be pulling a "Vince Carter"??

2LeTTeRS

06-23-2008, 03:13 PM

The Italian

06-23-2008, 03:16 PM

Some Raps fan tell me, what specifically is wrong with Ford's back? Is it just freak accidents, just a weak spine?

He has a condition called spinal stenosis.

Basically, what it is is that Ford's spine canal is narrowed and that causes it to compress against the spinal cord or nervers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinal_stenosis

More detail there.

crisoner

06-23-2008, 03:16 PM

I say good move by the Raps.

Pistol Pete

06-23-2008, 03:17 PM

Some Raps fan tell me, what specifically is wrong with Ford's back? Is it just freak accidents, just a weak spine? Seems the difference between he and JO's injury woes are that Ford seems to have a degenerative condition that will always make him an injury risk, whereas JO's knees can and have been fixed by surgery.

He's 5'11, 165 lbs and attacks the paint relentlessly, it's just freak accidents that result from a man that size constantly coming into contact with 6'11, 260 lbs forwards and centers who are swatting at the ball and instead are crushing him, injuries happen. The only reason to worry is just his style of play and his size.

DoubleTech

06-23-2008, 03:20 PM

not a terrible move for the raps if he can stay healthy...

calderon is looking like he is going to have PLENTY of people to pass it to next season... 10 apg isn't out of the question.

InspiredLebowski

06-23-2008, 03:22 PM

He's 5'11, 165 lbs and attacks the paint relentlessly, it's just freak accidents that result from a man that size constantly coming into contact with 6'11, 260 lbs forwards and centers who are swatting at the ball and instead are crushing him, injuries happen. The only reason to worry is just his style of play and his size.

Or he has spinal stenosis.

2LeTTeRS

06-23-2008, 03:26 PM

Ford is injury prone but that is still too much for O'Neal who hasn't played a full season in about 5 years, is old (since he came right to the league out of highschool), is injury prone, and most importantly has the 5th highest salary in the league! the pacers should be giving up a 1st round pick just to unload that horrible contract. He makes $21 million a year!

He's overpaid but in a league where Wally szcerbiack, Ben Wallace and Larry Hughes all make over $10 mil he's not the worse contact in the league, and if motivated he can still be effective. People seem to forget that even last year there was a vocal minority including John Hollinger who said he deserved to be the DPOY. He could be a tremendous asset on a good team.

Molson

06-23-2008, 03:27 PM

People have to stop saying "If he can stay healthy...". That is obvious but the facts are that he CAN'T stay healthy. He's averaged about 50 games a season for the last 4 years. He isn't sitting out because his team is lousy, he is sitting out because he is legitimately hurt.

It woudl be a miracle for JO to stay healthy this year and next.

trig

06-23-2008, 04:39 PM

JO is injury prone but so is TJ. JO can miss games, TJ can retire anytime. Diaw+Bosh will win you games but will struggle in the playoffs. too soft and too perimeter oriented frontline.

TJ also has a longer contract than JO. JO can be used as a trade bait after 1 season if things didn't workout.

IMO its worth the risk if the raps dont see anyone they like at #17

power works

06-23-2008, 05:39 PM

2LeTTeRS

06-23-2008, 06:05 PM

I think this deal is there for the Raps if they want it. No need to twist Bird's arm, they just want to get something for JO, they just want him out of there. :oldlol:

Probably more than the Raps want to get rid of TJ.

If this deal does fall through it would be cause Raps got cold feet --- JO's injury risk & huge salary yada yada. Or, maybe BC got a better offer (and puh-lease NO Diaw).

Honestly Raps fans you're not offereing much for JO at all, if this deal doesn't go through its going to be because they weren't sold on you're package. You have to remember there will probably be at least 2-3 teams out there interested in JO, and to think you're offering some home-run deal when the best player you're offereing could retire anyday is crazy.

Soundwave

06-23-2008, 06:28 PM

Raps should do it.

O'Neal is a risk, but they're not going to get a can't miss PF/C with O'Neal's skill level without taking a bit of a risk.

They should have just drafted Aldridge over Bargnani to begin with.

i seen hippos

06-23-2008, 06:52 PM

I'd do this in a sec. even though I'd try to keep a first round pick any way possible.

However, the thing that stuck out in this thread is Skywalker saying he'd rather swap Ford for Diaw....what the **** are you smoking dude? I'd take JO even if he had a 50/50 chance of playing sub-50 games rather than giving up a top 10 pg when healthy for an above average sf who doesn't fit what we need at the wing position (scoring, scoring and more scoring).

crisoner

06-23-2008, 06:58 PM

JO and Bosh would be hard....lots of good shooters on that team as well.

I like this.....hope it happens.

kaiteng

06-23-2008, 07:49 PM

Good deal, but I'd rather keep the pick though.

Trax416

06-23-2008, 07:55 PM

Love the deal, but wish we could keep the 17th pick.

Is JO is healthy, he is an all-star quality player. He just got surgery on his knees and played the final games of the season. He now has another entire off season to keep his knee's feeling good. A new team will give him a fresh start, and hopefully a new city will get him back to his old ways.

If he doesn't work out, we will have a gigantic amount of salary room by 2010 when his contract expires. 2010 is going to be one of the best free agent markets ever, and I see Toronto landing an all-star for Bosh to play with.

If we could keep our pick, that means we could draft someone like Brandon Rush or CDR, to go with Jose, Bosh and Jermaine.

I think it's a win win on the Raptors end. Best deal I have heard so far.

ZHAKIDD532

06-25-2008, 05:38 PM

Sources told ESPN The Magazine's Ric Bucher that the Pacers and the Raptors have agreed to a deal that, pending review of medical information, would send Jermaine O'Neal to Toronto in exchange for T.J. Ford, Rasho Nesterovic and the No. 17 pick in Thursday's NBA draft.

There will have to be another player or players added to the deal to make the salaries match, according to the rules of the collective bargaining agreement.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3461029

Qwyjibo

06-25-2008, 05:40 PM

Now onto a Bargnani for RJ deal once New Jersey drafts Gallinari as their new SF.

:D

kurupt

06-25-2008, 05:41 PM

Now onto a Bargnani for RJ deal once New Jersey drafts Gallinari as their new SF.

:D

never happening

BlazersDozen

06-25-2008, 05:42 PM

Everybody says Toronto wins, Indiana wins this trade, see other thread.

i seen hippos

06-25-2008, 05:43 PM

They need a FA pg with the possibility of Delfino playing spot minutes at pg. A smart GM can find a good pg for cheap that plays the system well ie. Pargo.

It seems less likely that Ukic is coming over last time I heard so if this trade does go down, a pg is the next thing to look for.

Again, if this does go down, I hope they can swing a guard or two for a pick in the 20's. Draft someone like Hardin, Hendrix, etc.

They have Kapono, Parker, Delfino, Moon, Graham (worth nothing). Trade Moon for a pick in the 20's.

i seen hippos

06-25-2008, 05:44 PM

Now onto a Bargnani for RJ deal once New Jersey drafts Gallinari as their new SF.

:D

Says the guy who undervalues Bargnani more than anyone.:roll:

Qwyjibo

06-25-2008, 05:46 PM

Says the guy who undervalues Bargnani more than anyone.:roll:
Hey, I'm going by those faint "NJ interested in Bargnani" rumours that appeared a while back. God knows why they (or anyone) would give up anything of value for him but there was smoke. Now I want a full blown fire.

i seen hippos

06-25-2008, 05:48 PM

Hey, I'm going by those faint "NJ interested in Bargnani" rumours that appeared a while back. God knows why they (or anyone) would give up anything of value for him but there was smoke. Now I want a full blown fire.

*Blows over the red embers*

Imagine a Calderon/Parker/Jefferson/Bosh/O'neill lineup? We'd become the second best team in the East.

plat1numX

06-25-2008, 05:54 PM

Lets hope the knee holds up

bjtrdff

06-25-2008, 06:03 PM

*Blows over the red embers*

Imagine a Calderon/Parker/Jefferson/Bosh/O'neill lineup? We'd become the second best team in the East.

That would be arguably the best team in the east, or at least in contention to be so, if JO can walk. But it won't happen.

I've mellowed on this deal a lot from my intitial reaction. I think it's worth the risk, and JO is going to be playing for his next contract, and to try and get back his rep. He also shut it down early this season, which should hopefully give him a chance to catch up health wise. If he can even approach what he has been in the past, the raps could easily have the best front court in the east. It's risky, but the potential rewards are huge.

Yeah he makes a ****load of money, but that doesn't matter either way this season, because we send the same amount back. The season after we're on the hook for 14 more million than we would be otherwise, but the season after that, when TJ would be making 8.5 million, JO would come off the Cap, and the Raps would only have Bosh, Jose, Bargs and Kapono under contract for the big FA summer of 2010.

I just really wish we could weasel out of giving up the 17th pick, maybe offer next seasons #1 instead. This is exactly the type of draft that is great for later drafting teams, in that there are a lot of risky picks that could end up being home runs.

I do wonder who the role player is...Kapono makes a lot, but after seeing him in the playoffs, and with Parker in the last year of the deal and Delfino possibly leaving, I think I'd rather keep him. It's too bad we couldn't hold onto both expirers, but I don't think that would be possible.

Edit, quickly checking the trade machine, I think Baston could be included (1 year left after this one, a shade under 2 mil) instead. That would at least let us keep both Joey and AP, which would be 6+ million in expirers, and could potentially land us a piece.

Here's hoping we can steal a draft pick from somewhere.

jackietreehorn

06-25-2008, 06:04 PM

the pg the Raps will sign is Chris Duhon, they've had interest before and he would fit right in over there

bdreason

06-25-2008, 06:05 PM

An O'Neal / Bosh front court would be scary in the East.

Interminator

06-25-2008, 06:07 PM

Great deal for both sides,now Indiana has the pieces to move up for Kevin Love to replace JO at PF.

Qwyjibo

06-25-2008, 06:08 PM

The other person included in the trade will probably be either Graham or Baston. Both useless players but on small expiring contracts.

It would be nice to dump off Kapono but no chance that happens.

MaxFly

06-25-2008, 06:11 PM

*Blows over the red embers*

Imagine a Calderon/Parker/Jefferson/Bosh/O'neill lineup? We'd become the second best team in the East.

And the best team in two or so years...

I hope this doesn't go through. :D

hotsizzle

06-25-2008, 06:14 PM

Great trade for toronto. JO brings the toughness/defense which they badly needed and will make it much easier for Bosh. As long as he stays healthy that is...

Soundwave

06-25-2008, 06:14 PM

This will help Bargnani a lot too if the Raptors are still intent on keeping and developing him.

The pressure of being Bosh's frontcourt compliment is off him now, maybe he can develop into kind of a Mehmet Okur type of player.

Rockets(T-mac)

06-25-2008, 06:21 PM

This is a slight gamble for Toronto, because yes TJ was injured and just taking away minutes from Calderon, but O'Neal is even more injured. I would like to see it happen though, with Bosh along side of O'Neal, he should have less pressure and less risk of injury. I would be happy if this trade happened for Toronto.

For the Pacers, I guess they finally get rid of O'Neal.

SHEED_ gangsta

06-25-2008, 06:22 PM

yeah I saw this rumor on CP24(local Toronto news channel) like a week ago. meh not really that hyped on it JO better get and STAY heatly. what happened to the Maggette talks?

bjtrdff

06-25-2008, 06:27 PM

yeah I saw this rumor on CP24(local Toronto news channel) like a week ago. meh not really that hyped on it JO better get and STAY heatly. what happened to the Maggette talks?

There were never really any maggette talks as such, at least not at the diaw/o'neal level, just a lot of continuous rumours through the season.

The thing is Corey has the opt out, and would want a sizeable extension. I don't really want to be paying him 10 million a year at 33/34 years old.

HeyIt'sMe

06-25-2008, 06:30 PM

Man, a front court of JO/Bustnani at the same time would be the worst big man shooting duo in the league.

SmackOrH.A.K

06-25-2008, 06:31 PM

What the heck are they gonna do with Andrea Bargnani now? He wears Jermain's number too...

UConnCeltics

06-25-2008, 06:35 PM

What the heck are they gonna do with Andrea Bargnani now? He wears Jermain's number too...
Maybe they will make him a SF since he is softer than Gasoft. He shoots 3's and strokes the ball decently.

bjtrdff

06-25-2008, 06:37 PM

What the heck are they gonna do with Andrea Bargnani now? He wears Jermain's number too...

They keep Bargnani, he's the first man off the bench, gets plenty of minutes, and can regain his form against the other teams' second unit for awhile. He'll also see time at SF, and might end up starting there depending on how it works. No biggie.

He's only been here 2 years, and he's going to be slaved all summer. He'll bounce back and improve.

Qwyjibo

06-25-2008, 06:37 PM

Maybe they will make him a SF since he is softer than Gasoft. He shoots 3's and strokes the ball decently.
Bargnani would get destroyed at SF. Can you imagine him trying to guard guys like Lebron, Carmelo, Pierce, Maggette, Prince, Jefferson, Deng etc. etc. He's not near quick enough to guard the 3 spot. He would be on the bench with 2 fouls a couple minutes into each 1st quarter.

JordanL

06-25-2008, 06:38 PM

What the heck are they gonna do with Andrea Bargnani now? He wears Jermain's number too...

Send him to the D-League.

bjtrdff

06-25-2008, 06:39 PM

Bargnani would get destroyed at SF. Can you imagine him trying to guard guys like Lebron, Carmelo, Pierce, Maggette, Prince, Jefferson, Deng etc. etc. He's not near quick enough to guard the 3 spot. He would be on the bench with 2 fouls a couple minutes into each 1st quarter.

He'll still see time there depending on the matchup. Sam has shown he's not afraid to do it, for better or worse.

The raps haven't given up on him, this is just a deal they like.

GOBB

06-25-2008, 06:40 PM

Whats not to like about this deal? JO gives Toronto what they lack. Hefty price but go for it I say. Glad Sixers didnt. lol

bjtrdff

06-25-2008, 06:54 PM

Whats not to like about this deal? JO gives Toronto what they lack. Hefty price but go for it I say. Glad Sixers didnt. lol

It makes a lot more sense for the Raps than the sixers (i.e. it doesn't at all for the 76ers). It's only 2 more years, they don't have to give up a ton for him, and although they end up with a high payroll in 09/10, they have a ****load of capspace afterwards. The upside of the trade is also massive.

big tuna

06-25-2008, 06:57 PM

omarnyc

06-25-2008, 06:58 PM

An O'Neal / Bosh front court would be scary in the East.

oneal is a shell of his old self, he wont play more then 45 games

bballnoob

06-25-2008, 07:00 PM

Yeah O'Neil takes a lot of jumpers but they are mostly from the most ala turnarounds and such. We know Toronto didn't get Dwight Howard or anything. Excited about this deal, kind of bummed that we lost the pick but the team's at a point where a gamble is needed. Hope the physicals go well.

Good luck to Indy with Ford. When healthy, he is a good starting PG in this league despite his late season troubles last year. However, it might look bad at first if he has nobody to pass to because he'll revert to shoot first mode.

Soundwave

06-25-2008, 07:06 PM

does anybody else think that although this deal makes toronto more mobile on the frontline, it also makes them softer? oneal can hit the glass but he takes a LOT of midrange jumpers, too many for a F/T center. the knock on yao was that he never fully utilized his size, which he's started to do over the past few years. i can't remember the last time oneal's backed someone down and punished them in the paint

they'll get away with this in the regular season but it's bad news all over again if they meet orlando in the postseason

No this makes Toronto tougher in the middle offensively and defensively.

O'Neal may not be the prototypical center but when healthy he can help Bosh a lot with the rebounding and shot blocking.

Qwyjibo

06-25-2008, 07:10 PM

bjtrdff

06-25-2008, 07:11 PM

does anybody else think that although this deal makes toronto more mobile on the frontline, it also makes them softer? oneal can hit the glass but he takes a LOT of midrange jumpers, too many for a F/T center. the knock on yao was that he never fully utilized his size, which he's started to do over the past few years. i can't remember the last time oneal's backed someone down and punished them in the paint

they'll get away with this in the regular season but it's bad news all over again if they meet orlando in the postseason

I think they'll work the offense enough to move JO in a bit more. Realistically, it might end up being more along the lines of playing 2 PFs with range rather than a traditional 4 and 5. Plus Bosh plays in the paint a lot, so JO won't have to live there and carry the whole load.

I see your point, but would still say that if JO is healthy, it's bad news for the other teams like Orlando in the post season more than the other way around.

bjtrdff

06-25-2008, 07:13 PM

The thing with O'Neal's offense is that he was always relied on as the #1 option. Who was the best offensive player that he had during his good years with Indiana? Ron Artest? Now he'll be the clear #2 guy behind Bosh and hopefully that means better looks. His shot selection clearly isn't the best either but you'll just have to live with that.

Yup, very nice point. I think that JO would thrive in that sort of atmosphere. Not having the pressure of being a #1 guy on him, and being able to just play his game. As long as they can tame his shot selection a bit, it'll be fine. And I think that that would happen naturally by virtue of him being the #2 option.

craigthomasb

06-25-2008, 07:14 PM

Lets hope the knee holds up
lets keep the 17th pick as insurance and take this problem out of the equation, im not happy about losing our draft pick. i'd rather have tj ford and 11th and 17th pick that jermaine o'neal

ford, granger, williams, daniels, digou, a couple of good picks and some huge cap room next summer, will be a good position to be in, not to mention murphy/dunleavy

bjtrdff

06-25-2008, 07:17 PM

lets keep the 17th pick as insurance and take this problem out of the equation, im not happy about losing our draft pick. i'd rather have tj ford and 11th and 17th pick that jermaine o'neal

ford, granger, williams, daniels, digou, a couple of good picks and some huge cap room next summer, will be a good position to be in, not to mention murphy/dunleavy

Yeah..I'd like to have the pick in this draft especially, when we might very well get a home run late.

I'd try to sub that pick for one next season if I'm BC. It's not like there are a lineup of teams waiting on JO, or able to take on his contract.

If we don't have that, maybe we could snag the Boston or Detroit pick and luck out.

i seen hippos

06-25-2008, 07:19 PM

If Calderon grows some balls we will have 3 legit scorers in the starting lineup surrounded by 2 of the best 3 point shooters in the league. No excuse for a lack of scoring.

The defense and rebounding will improve, but how dramatically? Only time will tell.

hawkfan

06-25-2008, 07:21 PM

Good deal for Toronto.

O'Neal will suddenly find himself "healthy" and the Raptors will be substantially upgraded.

Also, good move for Indiana to clear out O'Neal from the locker room where he is unhappy. And good that they got Ford and a no. 1 pick, and Rasho can be swapped out later this season.

bjtrdff

06-25-2008, 07:24 PM

It really is a trade that potentially works out well for both teams. Hugely for Toronto if JO is healthy.

But it's a homerun for Indiana either way. They ditch a huge salary and the 2nd last remaining player from the old era, they get their new starting PG so they can ditch Tinsley, and they get a mid round pick in a very deep draft.

Soundwave

06-25-2008, 07:24 PM

The Raptors should add Damon Stoudamire as their back up PG on the cheap.

Then sign someone like Pietrus with the MLE.

O'Neal/Bargnani
Bosh/Humphries
Pietrus/Moon
Parker/Kapono
Calderon/Stoudamire

That's a pretty decent mix of offense + defense.

mattreis62

06-25-2008, 07:29 PM

This deal is great for Toronto if O'Neal can stay healthy, but that's a big if in my mind. He's always injured because he was forced to play center in Indy and gets pounded in the paint every night. Seems like he's going to be in the exact same situation in Toronto.

I think Indy made out pretty well in this trade. Ford's an above average point guard and that was a big hole for them. Now they don't have to worry so much about need and are free to take the best player available with their lottery pick. There should be some decent big men available at 17, and they got a fairly large expiring deal with Rasho.

johndeeregreen

06-25-2008, 07:30 PM

Bargnani has value?

JO brings the toughness/defense which they badly needed and will make it much easier for Bosh.
:oldlol:

There are a lot of things JO brings to the table, but toughness is absolutely not one of them, physical or mental.

Skywalker

06-25-2008, 07:31 PM

If this happens we will all experience the wrath of Chris Bosh next year. As long as JO is good and healthy for atleast 65 games.

T.O.RAPS

06-25-2008, 07:34 PM

If O'Neal stays healthy, i say we have the twin towers 2.0 :banana:

bjtrdff

06-25-2008, 07:34 PM

If this happens we will all experience the wrath of Chris Bosh next year. As long as JO is good and healthy for atleast 65 games.

That definitely another benefit. I fully expected Chris to take his game up another level, as he has after every summer, but this could really amp it up.

jbot

06-25-2008, 07:38 PM

yep. i'm just glad something happened. looks like tinsley is next on the block.

Miller Time

06-25-2008, 07:39 PM

yep. i'm just glad something happened. looks like tinsley is next on the block.

yea me too. Now I want Tinsley out of here and after him I want Murphy out.

bjtrdff

06-25-2008, 07:43 PM

Looks like Williams is going to be gone too, from Bird's comments.

Ford/Granger/Dunleavy plus a couple young picks and good future cap space isn't a bad core to have. And I like Murphy. He has a bad contract, but I think he might thrive without JO.

Plus in this draft, the 11 and 17 could probably be packaged to move up if they wanted too.

Miller Time

06-25-2008, 07:45 PM

InspiredLebowski

06-25-2008, 07:45 PM

Pistol Pete

06-25-2008, 07:50 PM

Pacers are looking to be in very good shape, compared to last season. I'm smelling an Anthony Randolph pick if he's there at 11. I think this is a good deal for both teams, and I think getting the 17th pick is a steal. TJ seems like a great fit for our offense. Now let's see Tinsley for Eric Snow.

And WTF is up w/ all these people saying Toronto is to be reckoned with now that they have JO? All I EVER heard when mentioning JO was "knee...injury...shell of old self...".

We're going off the fact that's he pulling a Vince Carter, why put your body on the line for a team that's not going anywhere, he'll show up and be ready to go with a team that can actually compete for the Eastern Conference, healthy and energized!

Jose Calderon | Anthony Parker | Jason Kapono | Chris Bosh | Jermaine O'Neal

I hate seeing TJ and Rasho leave town because they're by far my two favourite Raptors but this is something that needed to happen for Toronto to take the next step, I'm excited about this move.

Chris Bosh will explode with O'Neal next to him, no more triple teams!

InspiredLebowski

06-25-2008, 07:54 PM

We're going off the fact that's he pulling a Vince Carter, why put your body on the line for a team that's not going anywhere, he'll show up and be ready to go with a team that can actually compete for the Eastern Conference, healthy and energized!

Jose Calderon | Anthony Parker | Jason Kapono | Chris Bosh | Jermaine O'Neal

I hate seeing TJ and Rasho leave town because they're by far my two favourite Raptors but this is something that needed to happen for Toronto to take the next step, I'm excited about this move.

Chris Bosh will explode with O'Neal next to him, no more triple teams!

He was not pulling a Carter. He faked injuries for three consecutive years? And even if that were the case, that's the kind of guy you want? Having Bosh will do wonders for JO, he didn't have a legit post threat next to him once Brad Miller left.

Tell me why Rasho is so liked? I see a lot of people on here w/ his avatar and whatnot.

Interminator

06-25-2008, 07:58 PM

Pacers are looking to be in very good shape, compared to last season. I'm smelling an Anthony Randolph pick if he's there at 11. I think this is a good deal for both teams, and I think getting the 17th pick is a steal. TJ seems like a great fit for our offense. Now let's see Tinsley for Eric Snow.

And WTF is up w/ all these people saying Toronto is to be reckoned with now that they have JO? All I EVER heard when mentioning JO was "knee...injury...shell of old self...".
Well JO is pretty much a shell of his old self but now that he possibly will be competing for a Championship he might play some motivated basketball,18/10/2.5 sounds possible.

No I think Indiana will go with the best player available at #11 and with the way the Draft could possibly go I would not be surprised to see Eric Gordon available at #11 and Roy Hibbert at #17 to Indiana.Book It.

InspiredLebowski

06-25-2008, 08:01 PM

Well JO is pretty much a shell of his old self but now that he possibly will be competing for a Championship he might play some motivated basketball,18/10/2.5 sounds possible.

No I think Indiana will go with the best player available at #11 and with the way the Draft could possibly go I would not be surprised to see Eric Gordon available at #11 and Roy Hibbert at #17 to Indiana.Book It.

If Gordon's there he'd be the pick. Hibbert shouldn't though, he doesn't fit our offense at all, he shouldn't be on Indiana's board.

RapsFan

06-25-2008, 08:01 PM

Raps still have their MLE to sign a 2 or 3. We have a solid bench with either Kapono or Moon on the pine, with Bargs, Hump and Roko coming over. Pretty solid.

Darius

06-25-2008, 08:02 PM

Don't like this trade much for the Raps.

Bosh and JO are essentially the same player, playing the same position.

RapsFan

06-25-2008, 08:04 PM

Don't like this trade much for the Raps.

Bosh and JO are essentially the same player, playing the same position.

I am not sure if you haven't seen Bosh play a lot. He's a finesse big. JO plays way more in the paint then Bosh every will. JO is also a much better defender and shot blocker.

They are a perfect pairing in my opinion for what they do on both sides of the ball. Very good compliments.

Darius

06-25-2008, 08:06 PM

I am not sure if you haven't seen Bosh play a lot. He's a finesse big. JO plays way more in the paint then Bosh every will. JO is also a much better defender and shot blocker.

They are a perfect pairing in my opinion for what they do on both sides of the ball. Very good compliments.

This post makes me unsure if you've seen JO play alot :)

Hopper15

06-25-2008, 08:07 PM

Don't like this trade much for the Raps.

Bosh and JO are essentially the same player, playing the same position.

That's an excellent trade for the Raps. Name me a team in the east that can stop those two at PF-C.

veilside23

06-25-2008, 08:07 PM

oneal maybe old but he can play defense and that is what toronto lacks they dont need oneal to put up 20points a night he will play center and bosh will play 4 bosh can give oneal alot of open shots vice versa plus imagine kapono and calderon will have a party from the outside bargnani too ...

indiana on the other hand can get tj ford he maybe injured but he is definitely a good starter. tinsley plus shawne williams may get indiana another draft pick or a solid pf. indiana can now go ahead and draft either darell arthur or speights at number 11 and gamble with deandrea jordan at 17 . granger will start at the 3 i think or 4 .

indy

ford
dunleavy
granger
arthur/speights
murphy

might be alot of work but granger will definitely shine next season.

Interminator

06-25-2008, 08:08 PM

If Gordon's there he'd be the pick. Hibbert shouldn't though, he doesn't fit our offense at all, he shouldn't be on Indiana's board.
Yeah well he's NBA ready but he'd seem like a duplicate pick of David Harrison.

If I were Indiana at #17 I'd go for Darrell Arthur(if hes available)

DeuceWallaces

06-25-2008, 08:09 PM

Am I the only one who thinks JO is soft as hell and worth nothing in the playoffs? Just looks like more soft players on the Raptors. That is a marshmallow frontcourt.

Qwyjibo

06-25-2008, 08:13 PM

dirkdiggler41

06-25-2008, 08:17 PM

I love this trade for the Raptors. You lose a pg who is to small and cant shoot for a big. Oneal has not gotten much attention and his stats has really gone down. I really hope he can be a good defender with 20 and 10

InspiredLebowski

06-25-2008, 08:19 PM

Yeah well he's NBA ready but he'd seem like a duplicate pick of David Harrison.

If I were Indiana at #17 I'd go for Darrell Arthur(if hes available)

Harrison may or may not have his team option picked up. Yesterday I'd have said 100% not, but maybe not so likely now that we're thin up front. Still wouldn't surprise me to see him released. And I don't understand how he's anything like Harrison anyway, other than being big.

InspiredLebowski

06-25-2008, 08:20 PM

DeuceWallaces

06-25-2008, 08:21 PM

Soft in what way? On offense? Yea he sure has been in the past with all those silly mid-range jumpers he takes. But he will no longer be the #1 option and won't be relied on that. The Pacers needed JO to be that 20+ PPG #1 scorer for them. The Raptors won't.
He blocks shots, plays good smart positional D and rebounds. As long as he isn't "soft" in these areas, and he hasn't been when healthy, then it's all good.

Yeah, he's soft as hell on offense, his defense was only average in the playoffs, and he's never healthy. He is a good rebounder. Outside of rebounding and some shotblocking I just don't see much difference between him and Bosh.

konex

06-25-2008, 08:25 PM

Love this deal for both teams. Neither player is more injury-prone than the other and both fill key needs

dirkdiggler41

06-25-2008, 08:25 PM

You're going to be disappointed.

That is the stats I would love to see, but probaly wont. I belive he will step up from this season though

Qwyjibo

06-25-2008, 08:26 PM

Similar to Bosh but with better D and worse offense. But I'll take that. He has a better body to handle the C spot than Bosh too. Hopefully his knee holds up for most of the season + playoffs. Also, the "Too similar to Bosh" thing is probably the reason the Raptors have Andrea Bargnani instead of LaMarcus Aldridge right now.

Mathius

06-25-2008, 08:28 PM

Don't like this trade much for the Raps.

Bosh and JO are essentially the same player, playing the same position.

That's what I was thinking as well....

Not to mention people are saying this is a good gamble, but...

Yeah, from a personnel standpoint? It's worth the risk. They lose Ford, but Calderon was ready to step in, and JO could be a great player if healthy...

But, JO is essentially a more worn down version of Bosh. Maybe a little tougher, but basically a skinny PF with a jump shot, same as Bosh.

But more importantly, if JO doesn't pan out... from what I can see, the Raptors are pretty much screwing themselves under the cap. Didn't someone just quote 44mil over 2 years?

I dunno, I guess he might have some value as an expirer in a year.

Mathius

Trax416

06-25-2008, 08:30 PM

We don't need him to drop 20PPG. We need him to get rebounds and block shots. I would be happy with 15-10. Hell, 15-9.

What this does is really help Bosh. Bosh is going to get to play the position he dominates, PF. If both guys are healthy, Bosh could end up somewhere in the MVP running within the next couple of seasons.

konex

06-25-2008, 08:36 PM

What other proven center could they get for TJ "damaged goods" Ford though? I'm sure JO will suddenly be healthy on a decent team and just 2 years left on his deal lol

He's a legit center in the EC and with the shooters they have in the backcourt, I really like those 2 with Delfino starting at the 3 over Moon. Who do you sag off to defend them?

Trax416

06-25-2008, 08:36 PM

That's what I was thinking as well....

Not to mention people are saying this is a good gamble, but...

Yeah, from a personnel standpoint? It's worth the risk. They lose Ford, but Calderon was ready to step in, and JO could be a great player if healthy...

But, JO is essentially a more worn down version of Bosh. Maybe a little tougher, but basically a skinny PF with a jump shot, same as Bosh.

But more importantly, if JO doesn't pan out... from what I can see, the Raptors are pretty much screwing themselves under the cap. Didn't someone just quote 44mil over 2 years?

I dunno, I guess he might have some value as an expirer in a year.

Mathius

1. JO and Bosh are much different players. Anyone saying they are the same have not seen them play. Just because they take Jump Shots, doesn't make them the same.

2. How is 44 million in two years screwing the Raptors? It gives them gigantic cap space in 2010. In fact, I believe only five players will still be under contract by then. That gives them more room to work with the amazing Free agent market in 2010. It could potentially land them a big time all-star.

I am not saying they will get Lebron James, I am sure he will want to play in a big market like NY. However if the Raptors have the room by 2010, and since Bosh and James have recently become friends. The Raptors could potentially offer him a big contract, and a solid team to play for. Bosh + Lebron = rings. I doubt thats something James would overlook. He wants to be a champion.

bballnoob

06-25-2008, 08:37 PM

That's what I was thinking as well....

Not to mention people are saying this is a good gamble, but...

Yeah, from a personnel standpoint? It's worth the risk. They lose Ford, but Calderon was ready to step in, and JO could be a great player if healthy...

But, JO is essentially a more worn down version of Bosh. Maybe a little tougher, but basically a skinny PF with a jump shot, same as Bosh.

But more importantly, if JO doesn't pan out... from what I can see, the Raptors are pretty much screwing themselves under the cap. Didn't someone just quote 44mil over 2 years?

I dunno, I guess he might have some value as an expirer in a year.

Mathius

The salary is basically just centred into O'Neil's contract as opposed to being spread out amongst Ford/ Rasho/Scrub. The same money is being exchanged it's just a different distribution. Ford's contract runs longer than O'Neil's as well so I think the Raptors will save money in the long run.

I'll take a lesser version of Bosh better suited to playing centre than keeping the players traded away anyway. If it flames out, then as you mentioned he can be used as an expirer chip 2 seasons in the future.

big tuna

06-25-2008, 08:38 PM

re: better looks as a #2 option, that makes perfect sense... players usually up their % when playing alongside someone else that commands doubleteams

but look at the lakers and shifting pau over to C for the season. granted, oneal's played the C more often through his career but he's also sat out a lot more games than gasol, so it's not as if his body's holding up to all that extra banging around. my point is, once they come across a team that doesn't have to doubleteam both of them (and im going with bosh as the constant), they'll be in almost the same situation as this year.

i do think the raps got good value since ford was expendable but i don't think this moves them into the elite class that some raptor fans are hoping for

Pistol Pete

06-25-2008, 08:39 PM

He was not pulling a Carter. He faked injuries for three consecutive years? And even if that were the case, that's the kind of guy you want? Having Bosh will do wonders for JO, he didn't have a legit post threat next to him once Brad Miller left.

Tell me why Rasho is so liked? I see a lot of people on here w/ his avatar and whatnot.

Rasho is a fan favourite, we don't really have any interior presence and Rasho does all the stuff our team lacked - solid defensively, rebounds, has a creative offensive repetoire, and is just a badass. He always deserved more minutes then he got, was very efficient, very few mistakes, very underrated.

In March, he got 30 minutes a game and put up 14 points and 7 rebounds on 57% shooting

In April, he got 31 minutes a game and put up 16 points and 7 rebounds on 60% shooting

Rasho will leave behind a cult like following in Toronto, if he gets some playing time in Indiana, you'll learn to appreciate his game. He will be missed.

RapsFan

06-25-2008, 08:39 PM

I think people undersestimate the 'power' of a contract year. JO will be playing for his final large contract in 2 years. Just like Baron Davis this past year, I wouldn't at all be surprised to see 75+ games from JO. He has had very little to play for with the Pacers these last couple years.

Mathius

06-25-2008, 08:40 PM

I am not saying they will get Lebron James, I am sure he will want to play in a big market like NY. However if the Raptors have the room by 2010, and since Bosh and James have recently become friends. The Raptors could potentially offer him a big contract, and a solid team to play for. Bosh + Lebron = rings. I doubt thats something James would overlook. He wants to be a champion.

I wish you guys would open your eyes to just how overrated cap space is in an open market. I've said all this before.

I know it sounds like I'm arguing against myself, because I said that the Raptors are screwing themselves for cap space, but I was talking in the sense of having room to manipulate your roster with trades.

Having 20 mil in free money in 2010 isn't going to guarantee anything. In fact, it's obvious from the discussions and interviews that every team in the league that has to rebuild is trying to clear cap space in 2010, but history has taught us that it's very rare that a big named free agent is going to leave their team.

The team they belong to can always offer more money (bird rights) than anyone else.

AND, besides Shaquille O'Neal, I can't think of a single (high dollar) free agent signing that has led to a championship.

The salary is basically just centred into O'Neil's contract as opposed to being spread out amongst Ford/ Rasho/Scrub. The same money is being exchanged it's just a different distribution. Ford's contract runs longer than O'Neil's as well so I think the Raptors will save money in the long run.

I'll take a lesser version of Bosh better suited to playing centre than keeping the players traded away anyway. If it flames out, then as you mentioned he can be used as an expirer chip 2 seasons in the future.

Doesn't matter. It's going to be a lot harder to move one high dollar scrub than it is to move three smaller contracts. If JO doesn't pan out, then the Raptors are going to be on the other end of the stick, having to take on 3 overpaid scrubs to make up JO's enormous contract. That's three roster spots that could go to other players, and more cap money tied up.

Like I said, if JO doesn't stay healthy, the best Toronto can hope for is that some team out there wants him as an expirer. In all honesty, if he ends up getting reinjured, he may be smart to just consider retirement.

Mathius

Anti404

06-25-2008, 08:44 PM

This seems to be a smart deal for both teams.

In full time rebuilding mode, Indiana gets a young though injury prone slashing type PG and a decent pick.

On the other end of the spectrum, Toronto gets a very solid defense PF/C who pulls down a load of rebounds and can help ameliorate the interior woes of the Raptors as well as open up more open threes for Kapono/Calderon/Parker. Toronto has to be considered in a "win now" mode, because there's no way Bosh will stay if they continue to lose.

IMO

Qwyjibo

06-25-2008, 08:44 PM

I wish you guys would open your eyes to just how overrated cap space is in an open market. I've said all this before.
Well then taking on such a big salary shouldn't be much of a concern. The Raptors best chance of getting star players that get paid a ton is through trades. This is probably the best trade the Raptors could have got for Ford. It's a big risk but one a team like the Raptors need to take unless they are fine with being mediocre for the next 2 years and watching Bosh leave afterwards.

eliteballer

06-25-2008, 08:51 PM

Yeah, he's soft as hell on offense, his defense was only average in the playoffs, and he's never healthy. He is a good rebounder. Outside of rebounding and some shotblocking I just don't see much difference between him and Bosh.

Uhh...those are two pretty huge and critical differences:oldlol:

RapsFan

06-25-2008, 08:54 PM

Very good deal for Indy though also. Rasho expires after this year, they get a better, younger PG. They also now have #11 and #17 in a draft where guys from #5 or so to #20 have as much potential to flourish or bust as the rest of them. They could walk away from this with like Anthony Randolf and DeAndre Jordan. Two guys that have at one time been linked to top 6 picks. They aren't ready to produce but Indy isn't going to challenge for a title soon anyway.

i seen hippos

06-25-2008, 08:56 PM

Indy could draft Randolph and Koufos. That would be their front court of the future. Both would be top 6 picks in next year's draft.

konex

06-25-2008, 08:59 PM

Outside of rebounding and some shotblocking I just don't see much difference between him and Bosh

Outside of rebounding and some shotblocking I just don't see much difference between KG and Gasol :(

raptorfan_dr07

06-25-2008, 09:08 PM

While I won't jump up and down for joy over this trade(I still have concerns over JO's health), I think this is a great trade for Toronto. IF JO can return to form and stay healthy over the course of an 82 game season, then the Raptors have arguably the best front court in the East. It was evident this team was going nowhere fast and the lack of muscle in the front court was terribly exposed against the Magic and Dwight Howard. Having a true C that can create his own shot and commands attention in the paint will do wonders for Chris Bosh's game. Once again, a lot depends on Jermaine O'Neal's ability to stay healthy. If he can do that(and perhaps playing for a new contract will motivate him), then the Raptors can be a force in the East next season.

InspiredLebowski

06-25-2008, 09:14 PM

The more I look at it, this is one of the most balanced deals I can think of in recent memory. I still give Indy the edge due to the pick though.

RoseCity07

06-25-2008, 09:17 PM

Deal went official

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3461029

InspiredLebowski

06-25-2008, 09:18 PM

Who's the 3rd player Toronto's sending? My money's on Maceo Baston, Bird's the guy who brought him back from Europe in the first place.

Qwyjibo

06-25-2008, 09:20 PM

It's either Baston or Joey Graham. Both totally useless but on small expiring contracts.

plat1numX

06-25-2008, 09:21 PM

I hope its joey g, i like him but toronto needs all the back up big men they can get :oldlol:

bjtrdff

06-25-2008, 09:24 PM

I just wish we didn't have to wait for July 1st, one way or the other.

InspiredLebowski

06-25-2008, 09:25 PM

Also, it's O'Neal, not O'Neil.

RoseCity07

06-25-2008, 09:28 PM

I just wish we didn't have to wait for July 1st, one way or the other.

Actually July 9th because of TJ Ford's contract.

highwhey

06-25-2008, 09:31 PM

anyone hear any news about suns? i know they're interested in making a trade...:(

InspiredLebowski

06-25-2008, 09:33 PM

anyone hear any news about suns? i know they're interested in making a trade...:(

They traded Stoudemire for Bobby Simmons and pick 37

veilside23

06-25-2008, 09:34 PM

like what ive said dont be surprise if bird packages tinsley+shawne williams to get someone in the market ... 11th at 17th pickplus tj is surely better than JO considering that granger is really stepping up.

selrahc

06-25-2008, 09:48 PM

i cant imagine oneal in a raptors jersey...

plat1numX

06-25-2008, 09:52 PM

i cant imagine oneal in a raptors jersey...

http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/6742/onealraptorslm9.jpg

not too bad

The GM

06-25-2008, 09:57 PM

If (and that's a big if) Jermaine is healthy this is a good deal for the raptors but the only thing is neither of these guys are post up players they both play the perimeter so i have my doubts about how that is going to work out. I think they should go after a good swing man or wing player cause they have no good guards in my eyes except for calderon.

otmtheshank

06-25-2008, 09:57 PM

O'neal's a very talented player, no doubt about that...great post moves, solid rebounder, nice defender...but those things aren't going to matter if he doesn't play to his full potential. I have no idea why he takes low% jumpshots rather than showcasing his amazing post moves/footwork, but the Raptors better figure out why, and get him back in gear. If the Raptors are getting the JO of the past couple years, then this trade is questionnable for the Raptors. If JO can get motivated and learn his role beside Bosh, then the rest of the East better be prepared for one scary frontcourt(O'neal, Bosh, Moon or Kapono?).

Also, have the Pacers finally given up on Tinsley? What's the next move for the Pacers?

lakerfreak

06-25-2008, 09:58 PM

Smart trade for both teams.

Indiana gets a good rebuilding package as well as a decent replacement to an injury prone and old Jamaal Tinsley.

Toronto gets bigger to try and compete with the likes of Boston's KG/Perkins, LA's Drew/Pau.

Not a bad gamble on Jermaine who seems to have lost a step due to injuries.

Thats also two defensive players down low.

Kujo

06-25-2008, 10:06 PM

Trax416

06-25-2008, 10:12 PM

Man, I have mixed feelings about this trade. It's a HUGE gamble. If O'neal can stay healthy, and return to all-star form, it's a great trade. If not, it's a disaster that will set this franchise further back.

I'm highly skeptical of O'Neal being able to stay healthy.

Even a non healthy JO is better then a healthy Rasho.

and TJ ford was only hurting the team with his attitude and shoot first mentality.

Kujo

06-25-2008, 10:18 PM

Even a non healthy JO is better then a healthy Rasho.

and TJ ford was only hurting the team with his attitude and shoot first mentality.

Even if O'Neal plays less than 50 games? I could live with at least 65 games. This trade is a failure if O'Neal isn't in the line-up on a consistent basis.

I know we had to get rid of Ford, but I think there were potential better deals.

InspiredLebowski

06-25-2008, 10:18 PM

Even a non healthy JO is better then a healthy Rasho.

and TJ ford was only hurting the team with his attitude and shoot first mentality.

A non healthy JO is sitting on the bench in a suit (he's a snazzy dresser btw, you'll come to see this Toronto), so a healthy Rasho is quite obviously better.

What attitude from TJ Ford? What shoot first mentality? Still put up 6+ apg (3/1 a:to) in just under 24mpg. 10 FGA per game on 46%. If Calderon hadn't emerged, would Ford even be on the block?

bonez26

06-25-2008, 10:28 PM

A non healthy JO is sitting on the bench in a suit (he's a snazzy dresser btw, you'll come to see this Toronto), so a healthy Rasho is quite obviously better.

What attitude from TJ Ford? What shoot first mentality? Still put up 6+ apg (3/1 a:to) in just under 24mpg. 10 FGA per game on 46%. If Calderon hadn't emerged, would Ford even be on the block?

You can't really say that based on the facts that have already happened. Calderon did emerge and can run the team a lot better than Ford. Calderon also sacrificed whatever he could for the team to win...even letting Me-J back into the starting lineup b/c he was sulking on the bench when he was the backup. Ford has the "me against the world attitude" and if you watched enough games you'd know more times than not he put himself in the driver seat to take the shot at the end of the game or the "mano e mano" match ups then the correct choice for the team. Bosh in the post.

I really like this deal for the Raps and now BC has shown he is willing to go out and build a contender for Bosh. Both teams got a good deal and plugged holes in their lineups. Raps finally get their inside help on the boards/shot blocking which they've never had and Indy rids themselves of a bad contract and has a nice young core and some picks to go with it.

Both teams win IMO

InspiredLebowski

06-25-2008, 10:32 PM

You can't really say that based on the facts that have already happened. Calderon did emerge and can run the team a lot better than Ford. Calderon also sacrificed whatever he could for the team to win...even letting Me-J back into the starting lineup b/c he was sulking on the bench when he was the backup. Ford has the "me against the world attitude" and if you watched enough games you'd know more times than not he put himself in the driver seat to take the shot at the end of the game or the "mano e mano" match ups then the correct choice for the team. Bosh in the post.

I really like this deal for the Raps and now BC has shown he is willing to go out and build a contender for Bosh. Both teams got a good deal and plugged holes in their lineups. Raps finally get their inside help on the boards/shot blocking which they've never had and Indy rids themselves of a bad contract and has a nice young core and some picks to go with it.

Both teams win IMO

I agree both teams did tons to help themselves. Guess I'll just have to see if he has the me first style for myself. Either way I expect big assist numbers from him, and if he wants to take the last shot in a close game, good. That's something we've been lacking ever since Jackson was traded.

Mr_Basketball#1

06-25-2008, 10:35 PM

This is just the start for Indy. Ford/Dunleavy could be a lethal combo. The Pacers were slated to take Augustine, but I can see them going after another big like Javale McGee, Speights, or Koufos. The Pacers are in great shape to make some noise in the East next year.

bjtrdff

06-25-2008, 10:36 PM

Actually July 9th because of TJ Ford's contract.

It's July 1st...that's when the BYC is done. Check it online.

bjtrdff

06-25-2008, 10:39 PM

InspiredLebowski

06-25-2008, 10:45 PM

Something worth noting is that Ford's contract is completely insured in the event of, God forbid, a career ending back injury. JO's isn't.

Mateo

06-25-2008, 10:49 PM

lakerfreak

06-25-2008, 10:52 PM

Healthy Bosh/O'Neal rapes both of those examples, especially KG/Perkins. I mean seriously...Bosh/Rasho is likely better than that combo this year.

Sorry but the word rapes is going too far.

KG/Perkins have proven to be a physical duo that intimidates a lot of other post presences.

It won't be easy for Chris Bosh who has a lot of bad shooting games for a big man and O'Neal who's been out for almost a year.

Besides, Bynum is already better than JO while Pau is still a star.

bonez26

06-25-2008, 10:52 PM

I agree both teams did tons to help themselves. Guess I'll just have to see if he has the me first style for myself. Either way I expect big assist numbers from him, and if he wants to take the last shot in a close game, good. That's something we've been lacking ever since Jackson was traded.

That's good for the Pacers...unfortunately the ball should have been in Bosh's hands in those situations and it wasn't he'll get better he still has years to improve. Thing is some nights he's inconsistent with the assist numbers...there's are night when he almost had 20 ast a couple of times but then the next night would have three or something...but on a nightly basis you could probably pencil him in for 6-8 assists and about 13-16 pts which isn't bad at all. Of course injury concerns aside for both players.

As a side note the Raps have turned Charlie V and the 17th pick into JO...pretty good ROI if you ask me..lol

Trax416

06-25-2008, 10:55 PM

Bad deal for the Raptors. I understand that they had to answer the PG question, but trading for softy mcsofterton who's about 3 years past his worth isn't going to help. This team isn't going to win a championship, and it's assembled as a team that needs to win the championship immediately.

It would be different if this was their only option... but Ford is one of the better PGs in the league, all you can get for him is a washed up soft PF? Come on.

1. It's a team built to make it past the first round of the playoffs.

2. JO is one of the top big man defenders in the NBA, can rebound and block shots. Thats not soft. He might be a bit soft offensively, but who cares? We already can score, and Bosh should be averaging close to 27 - 10 this season now he is back healthy and doesn't have to worry about playing center.

Rumors are JO is totally healthy. He is also working out this summer with the top personal trainer available to NBA players.

bonez26

06-25-2008, 10:59 PM

Bad deal for the Raptors. I understand that they had to answer the PG question, but trading for softy mcsofterton who's about 3 years past his worth isn't going to help. This team isn't going to win a championship, and it's assembled as a team that needs to win the championship immediately.

It would be different if this was their only option... but Ford is one of the better PGs in the league, all you can get for him is a washed up soft PF? Come on.

Alright then name one decent PF-C we could have got for Ford...or any player that has even neared being a star for that matter. None cause there was no deal out there like that...don't you think BC would have taken it, if it was available. We got the best possible return for TJ. Anyway you put it this was the best deal on the table and plugs a huge need for us and for the Pacers. Even if he get 10ppg 7rpg ad 2 blks a night...his presence alone will take a huge weight of Bosh's shoulders and is in no way worse than anything we already had at the position.

Maniak

06-25-2008, 11:00 PM

Lets hope the knee holds up

gah amen

bjtrdff

06-25-2008, 11:00 PM

Sorry but the word rapes is going too far.

KG/Perkins have proven to be a physical duo that intimidates a lot of other post presences.

It won't be easy for Chris Bosh who has a lot of bad shooting games for a big man and O'Neal who's been out for almost a year.

Besides, Bynum is already better than JO while Pau is still a star.

No it's not, especially for KG/Perkins. Perkins is a decent enough centre, but nothing special, so don't kid yourself. KG is KG, but getting older, and well behind Bosh offensively. If JO approached anywhere near his old self, they absolutely destroy those two players combines.

And Check Bosh's shooting percentage btw, because you're dead wrong. Bosh is very efficient...if he has a poor shooting night, he's at the line 15 times.

And I said the JO health factor many times, as has everyone else posting here.

Lakers is at least more debatable because we don't know how Bynum bounces back (or JO obviously). But still...KG/Perkins as a comparison for the best case scenario is awful.

Mateo

06-25-2008, 11:02 PM

1. It's a team built to make it past the first round of the playoffs.
.

Wow, what a pathetic goal. That's like settling for the chick with a retainer in high school.

lakerfreak

06-25-2008, 11:03 PM

No it's not, especially for KG/Perkins. Perkins is a decent enough centre, but nothing special, so don't kid yourself. KG is KG, but getting older, and well behind Bosh offensively. If JO approached anywhere near his old self, they absolutely destroy those two players combines.

And Check Bosh's shooting percentage btw, because you're dead wrong. Bosh is very efficient...if he has a poor shooting night, he's at the line 15 times.

And I said the JO health factor many times, as has everyone else posting here.

Lakers is at least more debatable because we don't know how Bynum bounces back (or JO obviously). But still...KG/Perkins as a comparison for the best case scenario is awful.

Agreed

bjtrdff

06-25-2008, 11:06 PM

Wow, what a pathetic goal. That's like settling for the chick with a retainer in high school.

We can't all bone supermodels like you do.

bonez26

06-25-2008, 11:06 PM

Wow, what a pathetic goal. That's like settling for the chick with a retainer in high school.

Not when your young team has never been to that level. You instantly don't make a championship team (ie. Celtics being the exception) It takes time and maneuvering and this is just the first of a few moves including maybe a pick in tommorow's either low first early second and more trades as well as a player with the MLE...So lets just wait and see how it pans out before everyone gets out of control...lol

Mateo

06-25-2008, 11:11 PM

Alright then name one decent PF-C we could have got for Ford...or any player that has even neared being a star for that matter. None cause there was no deal out there like that...don't you think BC would have taken it, if it was available. We got the best possible return for TJ. Anyway you put it this was the best deal on the table and plugs a huge need for us and for the Pacers. Even if he get 10ppg 7rpg ad 2 blks a night...his presence alone will take a huge weight of Bosh's shoulders and is in no way worse than anything we already had at the position.

You can't improve your team if you're spending 22 mil for 10 points and 7 boards.

I think a Elton Brand deal would have been very doable. Give up a draft pick and Ford... Clippers desperately need a PG now. I could see it happening.

Worst case scenario you take a Wilcox/Sene combo. Not better talent-wise than O'Neal but at least those guys aren't getting paid like him.

bjtrdff

06-25-2008, 11:12 PM

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=Onealtrade-080625

Nice Hollinger article about the trade if anyone isn't trolling espn now.

Trax416

06-25-2008, 11:12 PM

Wow, what a pathetic goal. That's like settling for the chick with a retainer in high school.

Toronto isn't Boston, and getting good players to play here, especially with a young team isn't exactly easy.

If we make it to the Eastern Finals next year I will be the happiest man on the planet.

I don't expect the Raptors to win a title any time soon, but I hope we get another banner or two.

2010 will be make it or break it for the BC era Raptors. JO's contract will be done, and we will either be at top team in the East or horrible. If we are a top team in the East, we can dump his contract and possibly pick up a young big time all-star. We can then move forward and challenge for a championship.

Mateo

06-25-2008, 11:12 PM

Not when your young team has never been to that level. You instantly don't make a championship team (ie. Celtics being the exception) It takes time and maneuvering and this is just the first of a few moves including maybe a pick in tommorow's either low first early second and more trades as well as a player with the MLE...So lets just wait and see how it pans out before everyone gets out of control...lol

Well, that was my point. This deal ties the team down, you can't make more moves when you're putting so much money into 1 guy who gives you so little. They've effectively settled for this being their team, and as I said, this isn't a championship team.

NoGunzJustSkillz

06-25-2008, 11:14 PM

I don't expect the Raptors to win a title any time soon, but I hope we get another banner or two.

another?

bjtrdff

06-25-2008, 11:14 PM

It's July 1st...that's when the BYC is done. Check it online.

My mistake...I forgot about the signing moratorium. TJs BYC is done on the first, but signing can only be on the 9th....I trust Hollinger more than Doug Smith.

Trax416

06-25-2008, 11:17 PM

another?

Atlantic Division champions.

icemanfan

06-25-2008, 11:19 PM

Everybody says Toronto wins, Indiana wins this trade, see other thread.
man has O'Neal's stock dropped that bad?
Wow.

bjtrdff

06-25-2008, 11:21 PM

man has O'Neal's stock dropped that bad?
Wow.

I think everyone says it works well for both teams either way, and if JO is healthy, it works very very well for Toronto. Even if he's crippled, they still clear cap space for 2010, and ditch a player who wasn't needed.

plat1numX

06-25-2008, 11:23 PM

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=Onealtrade-080625

Nice Hollinger article about the trade if anyone isn't trolling espn now.

"And Andrea Bargnani is free to go back where he belongs: the bench. " That made me chuckle.

Edit: "Only Bargnani loses." haha he is laying it on him

Qwyjibo

06-25-2008, 11:24 PM

Even better:

The players come out of it in better shape, too. O'Neal and Ford get new leases on life after being sprung from difficult situations. Bosh finally gets a frontcourt partner to do the dirty work for him. Calderon gets starter's minutes and some added salary leverage. Even throw-ins Nesterovic and Baston are likely to get more burn in Indy than they would have in Toronto. Only Bargnani loses.

:oldlol:

Ouch.

bjtrdff

06-25-2008, 11:25 PM

Hollinger is always down on Bargs...he makes Q look like a superfan;)

No one should be ready to write him off. We've seen flashes of being a great player, and this is the year that makes or breaks his career. I think a no pressure off the bench situation should work well for him, and help him hit the ground running.

shaoyut

06-25-2008, 11:26 PM

The raptors got sort of ripped off

Qwyjibo

06-25-2008, 11:26 PM

Kujo

06-25-2008, 11:27 PM

I think everyone says it works well for both teams either way, and if JO is healthy, it works very very well for Toronto. Even if he's crippled, they still clear cap space for 2010, and ditch a player who wasn't needed.

The CAP space angle makes me see the trade slightly in a new light. It's the one positive thing if O'Neal doesn't work out. I used to be a fan of his game, but he's really regressed the the last 3-4 years. Let's just hope he can fine a resurgence in T.O.

InspiredLebowski

06-25-2008, 11:31 PM

Speaking of cap space, this puts Indy in position to be ~$16 million under the cap next summer.

bjtrdff

06-25-2008, 11:33 PM

If Colangelo can buy a late 1st rounder or early 2nd rounder and get another big for the bench, then goodbye Bargnani I say. Expect to see either Richard Jefferson or Mike Miller on the Raptors next year if the draft pans out for the Raptors.

I doubt either of Miller or Richardson will be, but here's hoping.

I really hope we can weasel into a 1st rounder. I'm kind of surprised we had to give up the 17 to be honest...I was hoping we could do a 2009 first or something.

Oh well, hopefully Roko comes over and is a decent backup, and we can snag Boston or Detroit (or another late first rounder) and snag Batum or something as a steal.

Qwyjibo

06-25-2008, 11:37 PM

bjtrdff

06-25-2008, 11:46 PM

The Raptors should really be eying Mike Miller IMO. He seems a bit big for the 2-guard but has played it and done alright. Memphis is going to be dumping him at some point and it might not even take Bargnani. But even if it does, I'd probably do it. Mike Miller = underrated. People just lump him in with stand still shooters like Kapono and Korver simply because he is white. Miller can do so much more.

Calderon
Miller
Moon
Bosh
O'Neal

Yes please.

Too early to trade Bargs for Miller. I could see later in the season, especially if everything works out super well with JO, but it's way too early to give up on Barg's potential for Miller, even if he did have a disappointing season.

Qwyjibo

06-25-2008, 11:54 PM

Mike Miller just last year put up 16, 7 and 3 while shooting 50% FG and 43% 3pt. Do you EVER see Bargnani putting up those kinds of #'s?

hoopaddict08

06-25-2008, 11:56 PM

I don't think I have actually seen O'Neal play, the guy is only freaking injured.

baseketball4life

06-26-2008, 12:04 AM

Both teams won here in my opinion, look at what the Pacers got.

A great point guard in TJ Ford, he can carry a team, he can run an offense, he's fast like a nascar, perfect for the Pacers offense. Getting rid of JO was needed too. Now they have the 11th and 17th picks in the draft, if Brook Lopez slips, they may take him with the 11th pick and take his brother Robin with the 17th pick. Either way they have 2 First round picks to get a nice young big man.

For the Raptors, they have solidified to the best they could have there low block D. JO has always been a good shot blocker, and pairing him with Bosh gives them length on the inside along with strength. It's make them a better defensive team aswell as better on the offensive end. Now they can play Calderon 38 minutes a game and there won't be any loss with TJ gone.

baseketball4life

06-26-2008, 12:05 AM

The Raptors should really be eying Mike Miller IMO. He seems a bit big for the 2-guard but has played it and done alright. Memphis is going to be dumping him at some point and it might not even take Bargnani. But even if it does, I'd probably do it. Mike Miller = underrated. People just lump him in with stand still shooters like Kapono and Korver simply because he is white. Miller can do so much more.

Calderon
Miller
Moon
Bosh
O'Neal

Yes please.
I like Anthony Parker there at the starting 2 spot, he's a great defender and Moon can defend aswell, JO swats down low... I don't think much else needs to done. Sure you can get Mike Miller, but its not going to make you THAT much of a better team than you are right now after this JO trade.

Chrono90

06-26-2008, 12:06 AM

An O'Neal / Bosh front court would be scary in the East.

i X2 that

bjtrdff

06-26-2008, 12:07 AM

Mike Miller just last year put up 16, 7 and 3 while shooting 50% FG and 43% 3pt. Do you EVER see Bargnani putting up those kinds of #'s?

He's also 8 years older, and put those #s up on an abysmal team where he was the first option a lot of time time. I know you hate him, and to each their own, but still. Its definitely not worth giving up on Bargs yet just to get Mike Miller...it's not like we're adding an all star or anything, it's much better to wait on Bargs for awhile longer.

And yeah, I can see Bargs putting up those #s. He regressed his second year, but you can't write him off.

And Bargs put up 12/4 shooting 43% and 37% from three in his rookie year. Not the same as Miller at all, but certainly not out of the ballpark for possibility.

crisoner

06-26-2008, 12:11 AM

I always like JO. If it wasn't for his injuries of course this cat would be seen as one of the NBA's elite big men. Now he is paired up with Bosh and the Raps outside shooting....I say sky's the limit for them.

Of course JO's health come in to play...but if he plays all 82 games plus the playoffs (or at least most of these games) the Raps will be a force to reckon with for damn sure. JO can be the defensive anchor on this team as well....
I can't wait to see this team next year....

Skywalker

06-26-2008, 12:12 AM

wtf are you fools smoking any who would even hesitate to ship that filthy bust for a pimp like Mike Miller is on some serious Homerade.

Qwyjibo

06-26-2008, 12:13 AM

and put those #s up on an abysmal team where he was the first option a lot of time time.
That's even more impressive. Being a #1 option on a bad team and still being THAT efficient when likely the defensive focus is mostly on you (and Gay too). I'd be shocked if Bargnani ever approaches 50% shooting or even 7 rebounds per game.

I like Anthony Parker there at the starting 2 spot, he's a great defender
Parker hasn't been a good defender since his 1st year with the Raptors. He is wearing down FAST playing 30 minutes and 82 games per year.

A.M.G.

06-26-2008, 12:14 AM

Doesn't matter. It's going to be a lot harder to move one high dollar scrub than it is to move three smaller contracts. If JO doesn't pan out, then the Raptors are going to be on the other end of the stick, having to take on 3 overpaid scrubs to make up JO's enormous contract. That's three roster spots that could go to other players, and more cap money tied up.

Like I said, if JO doesn't stay healthy, the best Toronto can hope for is that some team out there wants him as an expirer. In all honesty, if he ends up getting reinjured, he may be smart to just consider retirement.

Mathius
Look, the Raptor's are almost certainly not going to resign JO for anywhere close to $22 million in 2010. If they resign him,which will only happen if the Bosh-JO pairing works out on the court, it will be for somewhere in the low teens, due to JO's age, so the Raptors will clear a bunch of cap space either way, and hopefully use it to sign a nice role player or something. Or they can let JO walk if it doesn't work out or if some other team is willing to pay him more. That will be $22 million coming off the books, I don't care what you say, that is enough to draw in a major free agent.

You seem to be suggesting that the Raptors HAVE to re-sign JO or trade him at the end of his contract. They don't have to trade him, and probably won't. They will simply use him for the next two years to hopefully have some success in the playoffs and satisfy Bosh, and then let JO walk in free agency.

OK, and how the **** is the best the Raptors can hope for "some team wanting him as an expirer." Ask yourself, why will teams want him as an expirer? Because 2010 is going to be a free agent bonanza, and the Raptors are going to have that massive expirer. They will take that ass-load of cap space and use it. They probably aren't going to get Lebron James, but they will probably get an All-Star.

Skywalker

06-26-2008, 12:25 AM

Brandon Roy To Raps!

InspiredLebowski

06-26-2008, 12:26 AM

JO's got infinitely more value as simply coming off the books and signing elsewhere. The biggest expiring deal ever dealt was Francis a few years ago at around $14 million, a far cry from $22 mill.

Kblaze8855

06-26-2008, 12:29 AM

So the raptors 3 best players are now Bosh, Jermaine Oneal, and Calderon? Im not sure 3 legit good players who I cared so little about have ever been on one team together.

Adambomb

06-26-2008, 12:35 AM

god a healthy oneal and bosh combo could beat the celtics in a 7 game series

nosurrender

06-26-2008, 12:37 AM

god a healthy oneal and bosh combo could beat the celtics in a 7 game series

so can a bryant, odom, and gasol combo :rockon:

baseketball4life

06-26-2008, 12:39 AM

wtf are you fools smoking any who would even hesitate to ship that filthy bust for a pimp like Mike Miller is on some serious Homerade.
you're talking Bargnani for Mike Miller?

of course everyone would do that if they were the Raps. I'd do a bag of chips for Bargnani

bjtrdff

06-26-2008, 12:47 AM

you're talking Bargnani for Mike Miller?

of course everyone would do that if they were the Raps. I'd do a bag of chips for Bargnani

Ridiculous.

It's Mike Miller, he's decent, but not a saviour. he put up good, and efficient numbers on an awful team. He's 8 years older than Bargnani is.

Bargs had a crappy 2nd year. Bigs take longer to develop. It's ridiculous to give him up now for someone like Miller who has peaked as a player and doesn't have any upside. if it was a matter of us being close to a ring and him putting us over, sure. But not otherwise.

RoseCity07

06-26-2008, 12:53 AM

Brandon Roy To Raps!
wtf

Qwyjibo

06-26-2008, 02:36 AM

Add the Pacers 41st pick and Maceo Baston to the deal:

ESPN.com has also learned that the Raptors will get the 41st pick from the Pacers as part of the deal while the Pacers will receive Raptors forward Maceo Baston to complete the deal.

Rameek

06-26-2008, 03:02 AM

Right now if all things being = the Pacers win this deal. Dumping an injury plagued player and his salary.

Honestly though this is the type of deal that you dont see a clear cut winner. Which ever player stays healthiest the longest and what does Indiana get at 17.

A healthy JO in the east annoys me as a knick fan! :cheers:

Kiddlovesnets

06-26-2008, 03:37 AM

Congratulations to Raptors fans, your team is a contender now in the East. It's definitely important to have a good manager and front office, right?

n00bie

06-26-2008, 03:38 AM

As a raptors fan, i'm REALLY happy about this deal. TJ really pissed me off everytime he was on the court. He's as selfish as iverson, but at least iverson MADE SHOTS. JO's rebounding alone is > TJ.

RajonKGcelts

06-26-2008, 03:39 AM

IDk, i can't tell who's gonna be hurt this year more. There def both injury prone. If JO can stay healthy, i'd love to see how the Raps mesh this coming season. Can't wait

Dbrog

06-26-2008, 03:54 AM

Everyone is talking about the Raptors in this trade (rightfully so), but I started to think about the Pacers to see if they have a legit shot at rebuilding or not. Their linup could look something like this to start the season:

Ford
Dunleavy
Granger
Diogu/Murphy
DeAndre Jordan or Anthony Randolph

There are definitely some holes in here. Noticeably in the SG and PF positions. Make no mistake about it, this is a lottery team again next year. However, if they can fill one of those voids with an 09' pick and then go out and sign a legit free agent, I think they would have a nice young team (assuming Ford stays healthy). My point is, I think they are on a better track than most people think.

DoubleTech

06-26-2008, 07:27 AM

stuff like this makes me feel a little better:

O'Neal, who is working out this summer in Las Vegas, seems to be of that belief.

In a post-2008 season interview with Slam's Michael Tillery in April, O'Neal addressed his knee problems specifically.

"Now my knee is healed," O'Neal said. "It's the best my knee has felt in two years. It's all about getting my cardio and my rhythm back, trying to be effective and learning how to punish guys all over again in the low post."

In the interview O'Neal said the 21/2-month layoff last year helped him not just physically but has motivated him to get back to the 20-10 guy he was before his knee problems.

"I'm taking it all back to the drawing stage," he said. "I've put together a great staff that's going to put my honour all back together. I'm not far from it. The knee is just about 100% strength. The healing part is already done. I'm really excited and very much looking forward to getting back on the court next year."

Valliant13

06-26-2008, 07:42 AM

I despised T.J. Ford, and have been hoping hardcore for the Raps to find a rebounding/shot blocking presense somewhere. This is a huge win/win for me...though that draft pick stings a tiny bit. At least they got a high 2nd rounder out of the deal.

I think being able to come off the bench will help barg develop without a ton of pressure on him. I still have faith he will be an excellent player, and summer at John Lucas's camp should be huge benefit.

bballnoob

06-26-2008, 08:20 AM

Ridiculous.

It's Mike Miller, he's decent, but not a saviour. he put up good, and efficient numbers on an awful team. He's 8 years older than Bargnani is.

Bargs had a crappy 2nd year. Bigs take longer to develop. It's ridiculous to give him up now for someone like Miller who has peaked as a player and doesn't have any upside. if it was a matter of us being close to a ring and him putting us over, sure. But not otherwise.

As long as he's putting up efficient numbers on a bad team, I have no issue with his production. Good players shouldn't be seen as crappier just because they play on a poor team. The same thing was said about Bosh early in his career.

Miller takes a boatload of 3's but still hits at a decent clip. But he's a good fit now and in the near future when Parker leaves. His rebounding would be a great asset as well. I'm all for giving Bargnani a 3rd year to show something but if this deal was on the table today, I would take it.

ZHAKIDD532

06-26-2008, 08:27 AM

This is the kind of deal that works out for both teams in their respective situations. The Raptors get a very good big man, an all star big man, to team with their own all star PF to create a formidable front court. They also now get to move Bargnani to the bench and they can let Calderon be the starter. And if JOneal gets hurt, the year after this is his final year and he'll be a monstrous expirer to either trade or keep.

Indiana needed to get rid of JOneal, it wasn't working and they needed the cap room. Plus, TJ Ford is their new starter, he's a good floor general and he's lightning quick. Now they have a few more pieces to ship off (Troy Murphy, Jamaal Tinsley). Once they do that they'll be in good shape especially after the 2 mid first rounders to add on to that.

DoubleTech

06-26-2008, 08:59 AM

i wonder why this thread isn't stickied???

i mean... trades like this don't happen every day.

otmtheshank

06-26-2008, 09:00 AM

As a raptors fan, i'm REALLY happy about this deal. TJ really pissed me off everytime he was on the court. He's as selfish as iverson, but at least iverson MADE SHOTS. JO's rebounding alone is > TJ.

Why do so many Raptor fans seem to hate TJ? You do get a me-first vibe from him sometimes(the whole pouting over Jose, his overdribbling of the ball), but he's certainly not selfish on the court. He may not look to pass as much as Jose does, but he still was among the league leaders in assists during the Raptors division-winning season. When TJ penetrates, you know he's going to dish it out to an open teammate if he can't find an opening, or he'll simply restart. Also, TJ does make his shots. He's not a long distance shooter, obviously, but he has a very underrated mid range game. He has a nice pull-up jumper, and he can hit the open 15-18 footer with consistency. He shot 46-47% when healthy this season, and 44% the year before, so it's not like he's chucking up shots all the time that he can't hit. He does take the occasional difficult shot early in the clock, but that should go away as he matures.

Jose is arguably the better pure point guard, but if TJ can stay healthy, he certainly has all-star potential in the East. The Pacers are going to be nice this year if TJ can stay healthy and put up around 15/7-8. They're going to have to acquire a couple nice young big men to succeed, but that shouldn't be too difficult(I don't see Diogu in the same light I did last year; although I hope I'm proven wrong).

ALBballer

06-26-2008, 09:03 AM

Toronto improves their defense big time, but Toronto still lacks a post player.

bonez26

06-26-2008, 09:13 AM

The deal reported by ESPN in full is going to be

TJ + Rasho + Baston +17

for

JO and the 41st pick

JPR

06-26-2008, 09:15 AM

the Raps got took in this deal. JO has been in the league 13 years! 13 years! he hasn't played a full season in 5 years! the guy also has a 5 head...come on toronto.

JPR

06-26-2008, 09:17 AM

Congratulations to Raptors fans, your team is a contender now in the East. It's definitely important to have a good manager and front office, right?

they haven't even played a game and they're contenders? Do you write for ESPN?

J O'Neal hasn't been the same since '04. he's through. he's been in the league 13 years! Indiana made a smart deal. Toronto gave up too much. Ford is the young upstart point that they have been looking for for years.

JPR

06-26-2008, 09:18 AM

I didn't even bring up dude's contract, JO has the 5th most expensive contract in the NBA at $21 million a year. great salary dump for Indiana.

2LeTTeRS

06-26-2008, 09:28 AM

they haven't even played a game and they're contenders? Do you write for ESPN?

J O'Neal hasn't been the same since '04. he's through. he's been in the league 13 years! Indiana made a smart deal. Toronto gave up too much. Ford is the young upstart point that they have been looking for for years.

He's 29 he was drafted in the same draft as Kobe Bryant, he's not too old to contribute. Seeing that all Toronto gave up was their back up PG and backup C and their pick, they can't complain at all about this deal. If Calderon's season last year a fluke, and he plays like Raps fans expect this team will be promising.

They won't contend, but expect a strong #5 or 6 seed now, they're better than they were without JO.

Fatal9

06-26-2008, 09:29 AM

I don't know how I feel about the trade. A little excited at the possibility of JO playing 70+ games and putting up 19/10...but that's best case scenario. I remember thinking JO was done earlier in the year when he was putting up like 12/6 at one point and he's never really been efficient at scoring for a big guy. The trade is a huge risk, but so was keeping TJ so I can't really complain.

InspiredLebowski

06-26-2008, 09:31 AM

He's 29 he was drafted in the same draft as Kobe Bryant, he's not too old to contribute. Seeing that all Toronto gave up was their back up PG and backup C and their pick, they can't complain at all about this deal. If Calderon's season last year a fluke, and he plays like Raps fans expect this team will be promising.

They won't contend, but expect a strong #5 or 6 seed now, they're better than they were without JO.
A 29 year old (who'll be 30 when the season starts) who's been in the league 13 years, with multiple knee surgeries.

Fatal9

06-26-2008, 09:31 AM

J O'Neal hasn't been the same since '04. he's through. he's been in the league 13 years! Indiana made a smart deal. Toronto gave up too much. Ford is the young upstart point that they have been looking for for years.

His first 4 years he averaged 10 minutes per game in 50 games...so I don't think his basketball "mileage" is as bad as you are making it out to be.

JPR

06-26-2008, 09:35 AM

He's 29 he was drafted in the same draft as Kobe Bryant, he's not too old to contribute. Seeing that all Toronto gave up was their back up PG and backup C and their pick, they can't complain at all about this deal. If Calderon's season last year a fluke, and he plays like Raps fans expect this team will be promising.

They won't contend, but expect a strong #5 or 6 seed now, they're better than they were without JO.

age doesn't matter because we're talking about high schoolers coming it at 17 or 18 years old. what matters is the tread on his tires and the wear and tear on his body.

put it this way, when JO came into the league, MICHAEL JORDAN and the Bulls still had a 3-peat to go!!! he's been around for a looooong time.

kwajo

06-26-2008, 09:39 AM

His first 4 years he averaged 10 minutes per game in 50 games...so I don't think his basketball "mileage" is as bad as you are making it out to be.
I agree, how is playing under 10mpg for 50games/yr for 4 years while having some of the best sports doctors and trainers in the world, worse on your body than playing 4 years as a starter in college?

Silverbullit

06-26-2008, 09:40 AM

2LeTTeRS

06-26-2008, 09:47 AM

A 29 year old (who'll be 30 when the season starts) who's been in the league 13 years, with multiple knee surgeries.

The player they traded for him has had multiple flare-ups of a spine condition. Both are "damaged goods", so you can't discuss ones injury past without the talking about the other. They traded small for big, improved their defense, cleared up the PG logjam and will now be able to try and bring roko over next year.

InspiredLebowski

06-26-2008, 09:49 AM

The player they drafted for him has had multiple flare-ups of a spine condition. Both are "damaged goods", so you can't discuss ones injury past without the talking about the other. They traded small for big, improved their defense, cleared up the PG logjam and will now be able to try and bring roko over next year.

I've said multiple times this is a win/win trade. I just think Raptor fans are expecting FAR too much out of this team.

2LeTTeRS

06-26-2008, 09:49 AM

age doesn't matter because we're talking about high schoolers coming it at 17 or 18 years old. what matters is the tread on his tires and the wear and tear on his body.

put it this way, when JO came into the league, MICHAEL JORDAN and the Bulls still had a 3-peat to go!!! he's been around for a looooong time.

A few others have said it, but NBA milage is only strenuous when you're playing. JO wasn't playing for years at a time in Portland before being shipped to Indiana. He has no more milage in him than the average player at his age.