Brand or Bosh or Jermaine

[nucomy]

I would just like to see where elton brand stands compared to Chris Bosh or Jermaine O'neal.

How would u rank these three players in talent... this has nothing to do with being a fan of one more then the other, whos the best, 2nd best, 3rd best is the question!?

[dnyk1337]

Kind of unfair since JO is out of his prime, and Bosh is young.

But based on the last 3 seasons.

Brand
Bosh


JO

[danumber88]

Brand
Bosh
Oneal

brand is underated.. no one ever talks about him. look at his career stats/avg

very consistent.

[Kblaze8855]

Ive never been too impressed by any of them. Jermaine impressed me most at his peak but I wouldnt just love to have any of them. Id take a guy like Carlos Bozzer over all 3 if I had a solid point. And I dont really like Boozer either.

[dffsaf9]

NOW
bosh
brand
jermaine

boozer? over healthy Bosh, Brand, Jermaine.....pleeeease

[brandonislegend]

lol @ boozer

bosh
brand
boozer
oneal

[Denali]

brand is the best player of anyone mentioned in this thread

[luigi>mario]

Oneal has to prove he can still play.
Brand is coming back from a huge injury, also has to prove it.
Bosh is young and can improve. Seems like he is even with the other offensively, but behind them both defensively.

I like a healthy motivated Oneal best, but that comes rarely.
Brand has been the best for the longest, but I wonder how he does in a new place after not playing last season.
Bosh could be a better offensive player than either soon, but well have to wait and see.

Oh, and KBlaze knows what he is talking about in Boozer. Don't let one bad playoffs fool you.

[plowking]

How do people rate Bosh so high? He shoots a low clip for his position. Is soft on rebounds, doesn't play down low where hes supposed to all the time, falls in love with his jumpshot sometimes, isn't very strong.

Then there is JO, a guy who has been overrated his whole career. He has only had like 3 seasons avg over 10 rebounds a game? Probably the best defense out of the three, though once again that facet of his game was always overrated as well. Very strong player, though gets pushed around in the post, by guys who are smaller then him as well. Once again he is strong, but can't find good enough position to rebound well. Though a good help defender.

Then there is Brand. Unappreciated by most NBA fans, while being one of the most consisitent players in recent times. Was a star from day 1 in the league and has never been mentioned in the top tier of players. Been very good with injuries apart from this season. Hustle player, plays against guys who are bigger then him and doesn't budge. With his size, does very well on the boards against bigger opponents. Stays infront of his man on most plays and makes every shot difficult.

Honestly how does a player avg 20 and 10 over 9 seasons not get any mention in the top 15 players in the league?

Brand>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bosh and JO.

Honestly I'd love to hear the arguments that put Bosh or JO above Brand. I'm waiting.

[baseketball4life]

Bosh-Brand
JO

[luigi>mario]

Plowking, your argument is good.

An '06 Brand is the best of them all, but after being injured, he has to prove he can play almost as much as JO has to prove it.

JO is tempting because he doesn't give up any size on players. If healthy and motivated I think his ceiling is higher, but that isn't going to happen soon. He can anchor the D though.

Bosh can score.

Like I said in my other post, Brand has been the best the longest. But, Oneal and Bosh have both been important in getting teams to the playoffs, but that isn't really more than a side note.

[plowking]

Plowking, your argument is good.

An '06 Brand is the best of them all, but after being injured, he has to prove he can play almost as much as JO has to prove it.

JO is tempting because he doesn't give up any size on players. If healthy and motivated I think his ceiling is higher, but that isn't going to happen soon. He can anchor the D though.

Bosh can score.

Like I said in my other post, Brand has been the best the longest. But, Oneal and Bosh have both been important in getting teams to the playoffs, but that isn't really more than a side note.

He averaged 18 and 8 in the few games he played last season. I think he's proved that he can still perform at a high level.

[nucomy]

how does a guy who averages 20 and 10 for a career not get mentioned in the top ten???

simple actually... brand has had 1 playoff appearance for his career...

if hes so great how is it he hasnt been able to take his teams to the next level.

nd the bulls and clippers are crap organizations but the raptors havent been that incredibly successful either and bosh has lead them to PO

[AllNBAArenas]

I'd take Boozer over those 3 too and cross my fingers that in the postseason he doesn't choke again.

[luigi>mario]

I'd take Boozer over those 3 too and cross my fingers that in the postseason he doesn't choke again.

Me too. He was great two years ago against Houston in game 7. Hitting fadeaways on the road and punishing Yao. I think he'll be back this postseason.

[Good Old Willy]

One thing is clear. Seems to me very few guys here have watched Bosh play (as much as others) these last two years...

[qrich]

how does a guy who averages 20 and 10 for a career not get mentioned in the top ten???

simple actually... brand has had 1 playoff appearance for his career...

if hes so great how is it he hasnt been able to take his teams to the next level.

nd the bulls and clippers are crap organizations but the raptors havent been that incredibly successful either and bosh has lead them to PO

Because Brand is not a leader. Bosh is the best leader of the bunch, but Brand is the best player. He doesn't hold the intangibles in order to be a leader.

[AllNBAArenas]

One thing is clear. Seems to me very few guys here have watched Bosh play (as much as others) these last two years...


Why do you have to watch him play when thousands of Raptors fans are willing to go into painful detail how "good" he is to anyone unfortunate not to turn away quick enough.

[Good Old Willy]

Why do you have to watch him play when thousands of Raptors fans are willing to go into painful detail how "good" he is to anyone unfortunate not to turn away quick enough.

:D

Point made.

Don't think that JO or Brand are close to Bosh anymore. JO has been talking about Bosh in interviews a lot in the last couple days, and its clear to JO who the superstar is. Toronto is outside the range of ESPN, so he doesn't get juiced up like DWade.

[qrich]

:D

Point made.

Don't think that JO or Brand are close to Bosh anymore. JO has been talking about Bosh in interviews a lot in the last couple days, and its clear to JO who the superstar is. Toronto is outside the range of ESPN, so he doesn't get juiced up like DWade.

:D @ that. You serious? Brand is a superior player unless he gets hurt again http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/63.gif

[Chicago76]

Just something to compare the players at similar ages. Brand and O'Neal for 4 seasons from 22 to 25 and Bosh over his last three seasons from 21 to 23. All stats (except MPG, which is actual) were adjusted to assume every guy plays 36 min per game.

Player Age MPG Pts/36 Reb/36 Ast/36 Blk/36 TOV/36
Bosh 21 to 23 38.0 21.3 9.1 2.4 1.1 2.2
O'Neal 22 to 25 35.7 18.3 10.2 1.8 2.5 2.3
Brand 22 to 25 38.2 18.1 10.1 2.5 2.1 2.3

Player Age TS% FG%
Bosh 21 to 23 0.583 0.498
O'Neal 22 to 25 0.513 0.464
Brand 22 to 25 0.563 0.506

So basically at a younger age, Bosh is putting up numbers that are very similar to both Brand and O'Neal did from 22 to 25. Someone earlier mentioned Bosh's poor FG%. It's roughly the same as Brand's and better than O'Neal's. When you look at true shooting %, which also factors in free throw shooting to measure scoring efficiency, Bosh is the most efficient scorer of the bunch. I'm not saying he has been as good as Brand throughout his career, but Bosh has a very good chance of being the best of the three by far.

[Posterize246]

Brand/Bosh
O'Neal

Jermaine was good for all of 4 years in the league. Then he got hurt

[InspiredLebowski]

Brand>>Bosh>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(keep going)JO

[IversonKings3]

Right now Id have to pick Bosh, but throughout there career it would have to be Brand, but hes surpassed his prime.

[Posterize246]

Right now Id have to pick Bosh, but throughout there career it would have to be Brand, but hes surpassed his prime.
How has he passed his prime? He's 29

[RapsFan]

I am a Raptor Fan and I think Brand is the best player, if he is back to full strength. Bosh just isn't good at D right now. If I was starting a team, of course I would take Bosh. I wouldn't deal Bosh for Brand straight up right now mostly due to age. But in terms of all around game, Brand is a better player because of his rebounding and D. He scores around the hoop a lot too, where Bosh settles for tons of jumpers.

BUT...and this is a big BUT.....Mitchell is a disaster when it comes to offensive game plan. If Bosh had a capable coach, he could be devastating on the block. But it's pick and pop city here in TO.

[SHEED_ gangsta]

Bosh is still young has way more moves and would murder Elton Brand 1 on 1


Bosh
Brand
JO

[Trax416]

Bosh - Brand - JO

Bosh is better then both of them when he is playing PF there is not really a question about it.

When Bosh was playing PF against teams with weak centers (so he didn't have to play center), He averaged close to 30-9 with the highest PER out of any big man in the entire NBA. When our centers were actually playing well, he had 12 straight 30+ point games, and he averages less points allowed per 100 possessions then any PF in the NBA, and more rebounds per 100 possessions then both Oneal and Brand.

Not only that, but he is still young, and he is improving every year.

Oneal is a better defender then Brand is. However Brand just has a better all around game then JO.

[power works]

I think JO is on track for a full recovery and a healthy year. Being of sound body is a great start, but he

[AItheAnswer3]

Boozer>Bosh>brand>Jermaine

[Phesto]

The problem I have with Brand is that he's not a winner. He's averaged good numbers on bad to mediocre teams, save that recent Clippers squad. He's like a slightly-better Shareef Abdur-Rahim.

I'd say Bosh is the current best. He has the most potential still, and has been in the playoffs the last 2 seasons. Meanwhile, O'Neal and Brand barely played last season and have a lot to prove this season. I wouldn't be surprised if one of them misses significant time this season, although both claim the be "full recovered."

[SHEED_ gangsta]

Boozer>Bosh>brand>Jermaine


2008 playoff stats

Boozer,

PPG 16.0 RPG 12.30 APG 2.8


BOSH,

PPG 24.0 RPG 9.5 APG 3.8


:confusedshrug:

[Rameek]

Brand, Bosh, JO
I have seen Bosh throw up 40 points and looked unstoppable. I wish he had that edge more often not necessarily the point production just the take over mentality. I have not watched him extensively but I dont remember him having the best back to the basket play.

[otmtheshank]

If it's the pre-injury Elton Brand we see, then Elton by a considerable margin. Many expect Elton to regress though, and if that does happen, a healthy Bosh would be the best player. JO's at the bottom unless gets rid of his lazy offensive mindset and avoids any more injuries.

[Y2Gezee]

JO at his peak was the best player of the 3 (or Boozer if you want to include him). Since its been a while since we've seen a truly healthy JO... I take Brand then think again about taken JO... but probably take Bosh. But I can't wait to see JO in a different situation. A situation where he should win and isn't even consider THE main guy.

[RapsFan]

Since basketball requires offense and defense, Bosh still isn't as good in my opinion. The other guys are just far superior on the defensive end.

THe guy who quoted Bosh vs Boozer's playoff stats....I think us Raptor fans would prefer a playoff series victory (like Boozer) over Bosh's better numbers.

Bosh needs to keep getting better on D and on the glass then it will be no contest.

[1~Gibson~1]

1.Bosh
2.Brand
3.JO

[Y2Gezee]

Since basketball requires offense and defense, Bosh still isn't as good in my opinion. The other guys are just far superior on the defensive end.

THe guy who quoted Bosh vs Boozer's playoff stats....I think us Raptor fans would prefer a playoff series victory (like Boozer) over Bosh's better numbers.

Bosh needs to keep getting better on D and on the glass then it will be no contest.

Boozer couldn't defend you

[A.M.G.]

The thing about Brand is, he's been to the playoffs like ONCE, and he's 29 and sat out almost all of last year with a serious injury.

What Brand has over Bosh:
Defense
Rebounding (not by much, Bosh averaged 9 rebounds per game last year)
Shot-Blocking
Experience
Bulk/Strength

What Bosh has over Brand:
Scoring
Passion/Leadership
5 Years Younger
Height/Length
Not Injured most of last season like Brand

So Brand might be the better overall player because of his defense and rebounding, but Bosh is the better scorer and leader and much younger, and will have had a better career than Brand when all is said and done.

Anyways, we'll get to see these two battle it out 4 times this year (barring injuries, suspensions, etc.) now that Brand has come to crash the Atlantic Division party... we'll see who is truly the best PF in the Atlantic other than KG!!!

[Posterize246]

The thing about Brand is, he's been to the playoffs like ONCE, and he's 29 and sat out almost all of last year with a serious injury.

What Brand has over Bosh:
Defense
Rebounding (not by much, Bosh averaged 9 rebounds per game last year)
Shot-Blocking
Experience
Bulk/Strength

What Bosh has over Brand:
Scoring
Passion/Leadership
5 Years Younger
Height/Length
Not Injured most of last season like Brand

So Brand might be the better overall player because of his defense and rebounding, but Bosh is the better scorer and leader and much younger, and will have had a better career than Brand when all is said and done.

Anyways, we'll get to see these two battle it out 4 times this year (barring injuries, suspensions, etc.) now that Brand has come to crash the Atlantic Division party... we'll see who is truly the best PF in the Atlantic other than KG!!!
Spots where you're wrong. Brand's wingspan is 7'5"...Bosh's 7'3.5". And Brand is known around the league as a solid lockerroom guy. Besides that all star youtube vid of Bosh, I've never heard him talk. Also...that ONE time that Brand went to the playoffs...25.4 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 4.0 apg, 2.58 bpg, 55% shooting in 12 games.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/brandel01.html

Can't put the blame on Brand for not getting to the playoffs all that much when he's been stuck in Clipperland on the rugged west coast. Put it this way...how many times would Bosh have made the playoffs had he been on those Clipper teams Brand was on?

Not trying to say Brand is better, not trying to say Bosh is worse. Just saying you gotta give him some credit where it's due.

[qrich]

Wow, I didn't realize that so many people overrated Bosh like this. I like the guy, but Elton is a top 5 PF in this league[behind KG/Duncan/Dirk and a toss-up with Amare]. Yes, Bosh is the best leader of the bunch, but Elton is the best player of the bunch, which I have previously stated. Brand is elite on both ends of the court, while Bosh and JO both aren't.

[A.M.G.]

Spots where you're wrong. Brand's wingspan is 7'5"...Bosh's 7'3.5". And Brand is known around the league as a solid lockerroom guy. Besides that all star youtube vid of Bosh, I've never heard him talk. Also...that ONE time that Brand went to the playoffs...25.4 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 4.0 apg, 2.58 bpg, 55% shooting in 12 games.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/brandel01.html

Can't put the blame on Brand for not getting to the playoffs all that much when he's been stuck in Clipperland on the rugged west coast. Put it this way...how many times would Bosh have made the playoffs had he been on those Clipper teams Brand was on?

Not trying to say Brand is better, not trying to say Bosh is worse. Just saying you gotta give him some credit where it's due.
Wow, didn't know Brand had a 7'5 wingspan, although obviously a 6'8 guy would have to have long arms to play as big as he does.

As for the leadership thing, I didn't say that Brand wasn't a leader. It's just that Bosh is more of a leader on the floor, and is more emotive while he plays. Brand just seems to be the strong silent type, leading by example and staying calm and collected.

As for you never hearing Bosh talk other than in the All-Star plug, that's because the American media doesn't give the Raptors any coverage. Bosh talks quite a bit on the court, and is actually a really cool guy off the court. Hey, I've never heard Brand speak at all, so we're even.

Brand not making the playoffs more than once can actually be blamed on him, although I see what you're saying, the West is insanely tough and the Clippers organization is not great. And I think Bosh would have probably made the playoffs at least once if he were on the same Clippers teams, I really do. Probably 3 times max...

I believe I gave Brand credit by saying he is the better overall player, but Bosh obviously has a brighter future due to his youth and still improving game, combined with Brand's recent injury troubles and foolish decision to choose Iguodala/Miller/Dalembert over Davis/Kaman/Thornton. To think what the Clippers had for a fleeting moment... Not saying the Sixers won't be hella dangerous, just I think that Clippers team would have been hella more dangerous.

Anyways, watch Bosh play this year, look him up on Youtube, you'll see he is a rising superstar who could lead his team pretty far into the playoffs this year (ECF?) with Jermaine O'Neal added to the roster, especially if Detroit continues to decline.

[qrich]

As for the leadership thing, I didn't say that Brand wasn't a leader. It's just that Bosh is more of a leader on the floor, and is more emotive while he plays. Brand just seems to be the strong silent type, leading by example and staying calm and collected.

As for you never hearing Bosh talk other than in the All-Star plug, that's because the American media doesn't give the Raptors any coverage. Bosh talks quite a bit on the court, and is actually a really cool guy off the court. Hey, I've never heard Brand speak at all, so we're even.

Brand not making the playoffs more than once can actually be blamed on him, although I see what you're saying, the West is insanely tough and the Clippers organization is not great. And I think Bosh would have probably made the playoffs at least once if he were on the same Clippers teams, I really do. Probably 3 times max...

Brand isn't much of a leader. I'm not saying he isn't a good locker room presence, nor a good player, but he isn't a leader. And I doubt Bosh would have made the playoffs more then that one year we did due to Cassell's swagger and leadership. I mean, look at the PG's Elton played with...Jaric, Knight, Livingston, McIniss, Dooling, Miller[quit on the team, didn't want to even be on the court], Doug Overton, Kenny Anderson, Rick Brunson, Jason Hart and so on. Best he played with was an old Sam Cassell, who basically was washed up. On the flip side, Bosh has played the majority of his career with two damn good PG's in Jose and Ford.

[A.M.G.]

Wow, I didn't realize that so many people overrated Bosh like this. I like the guy, but Elton is a top 5 PF in this league[behind KG/Duncan/Dirk and a toss-up with Amare]. Yes, Bosh is the best leader of the bunch, but Elton is the best player of the bunch, which I have previously stated. Brand is elite on both ends of the court, while Bosh and JO both aren't.
No one is saying that Brand is not a great player, but he hasn't accomplished **** and seems to be on the decline now, Bosh will soon take his place in the top 5 PFs in the league one way or another. Bosh is on the same level as Brand, and that injury to Brand may have caused Bosh and Brand to switch places on the PF totem pole. People are not overrating Bosh by placing him over Brand at this point. Now that these two are in the same division, we'll definitely see this season which one is currently better.


Oh yeah, and Duncan is a CENTER. Let me put it too you this way:

Fabricio Oberto: 6'10, 245
Tim Duncan: 6'11, 260

Which one is the center? Pretty obvious.

[Koop1]

Bosh
and Bosh Over Boozer as well

[A.M.G.]

Brand isn't much of a leader. I'm not saying he isn't a good locker room presence, nor a good player, but he isn't a leader. And I doubt Bosh would have made the playoffs more then that one year we did due to Cassell's swagger and leadership. I mean, look at the PG's Elton played with...Jaric, Knight, Livingston, McIniss, Dooling, Miller[quit on the team, didn't want to even be on the court], Doug Overton, Kenny Anderson, Rick Brunson, Jason Hart and so on. Best he played with was an old Sam Cassell, who basically was washed up. On the flip side, Bosh has played the majority of his career with two damn good PG's in Jose and Ford.
OK, OK, Brand has had **** help for most of his time with the Clips, but now he has Baron Davis and Chris Kaman plus young bucks Thornton and Gordon and he bails on them for Iguodala and Andre Miller?? WTF??? Brand-Baron would have been very legit contenders to win it all, and Brand crushed that chance.

The hell Bosh has played the majority of his career with Jose and TJ!! Bosh has only had a remotely cohesive team around him the past two seasons, since Bryan Colangelo arrived and totally restructured the team, the key components of which was acquiring TJ and the remarkable improvement of Calderon. I don't think you realize how ****ed up and mediocre the Raptors team and organization was up until the 2006-07 season, it was a MESS. And what does Bosh do once he has half decent help for the first time? He leads his team to the Atlantic Division title and the third best record in the (albiet INCREDIBLY weak that year) Eastern Conference, and makes the playoffs this past year too, and now if JO is healthy and motivated Bosh should finally win a playoff series this season.

[qrich]

No one is saying that Brand is not a great player, but he hasn't accomplished **** and seems to be on the decline now, Bosh will soon take his place in the top 5 PFs in the league one way or another. Bosh is on the same level as Brand, and that injury to Brand may have caused Bosh and Brand to switch places on the PF totem pole. People are not overrating Bosh by placing him over Brand at this point. Now that these two are in the same division, we'll definitely see this season which one is currently better.


Oh yeah, and Duncan is a CENTER. Let me put it too you this way:

Fabricio Oberto: 6'10, 245
Tim Duncan: 6'11, 260

Which one is the center? Pretty obvious.

Ok. Baron is 6'3 251 and Ellis is 6'3 177. I guess Monta was the PG? I know Duncan is considered a C by some and a PF by others that is why I put him there because I personally consider him to be a C. Willy, power_works, traxx + Sheed_gangsta overrated Bosh by saying he's "easily" better. You can make an argument, not saying you can't, but Brand is the better player as of now because he is an elite defender and an elite offensive option. Could the injury hurt him, sure, but since he came back and did pretty solid[18/8] I don't think it'll hurt him that much.

[A.M.G.]

Ok. Baron is 6'3 251 and Ellis is 6'3 177. I guess Monta was the PG? I know Duncan is considered a C by some and a PF by others that is why I put him there because I personally consider him to be a C. Willy, power_works, traxx + Sheed_gangsta overrated Bosh by saying he's "easily" better. You can make an argument, not saying you can't, but Brand is the better player as of now because he is an elite defender and an elite offensive option. Could the injury hurt him, sure, but since he came back and did pretty solid[18/8] I don't think it'll hurt him that much.
Come on Baron Davis is not 250 pounds, and Monta's size really is an anomoly among NBA starting SGs. GS was a wierdly put together team. Anyways, I guess its not wrong to include Duncan among the top PFs, but to me Duncan has always been more of a center than a PF even if the Spurs paired him with other centers. Matter of opinion, Duncan is officially a "PF". Moot point.

Saying that Bosh is easily better than Brand is certainly overrating him. They are both among the top 6-7 PFs in the league, Brand's defence probably puts him ahead of Bosh as a player, but Bosh is a better offensive option and franchise player.

[qrich]

Come on Baron Davis is not 250 pounds, and Monta's size really is an anomoly among NBA starting SGs. GS was a wierdly put together team. Anyways, I guess its not wrong to include Duncan among the top PFs, but to me Duncan has always been more of a center than a PF even if the Spurs paired him with other centers. Matter of opinion, Duncan is officially a "PF". Moot point.

Saying that Bosh is easily better than Brand is certainly overrating him. They are both among the top 6-7 PFs in the league, Brand's defence probably puts him ahead of Bosh as a player, but Bosh is a better offensive option and franchise player.

My mistake. It's 215 not 251, quick typing error. But yes, that is why I said people overrated Bosh. I was never putting Bosh down, just can't stand when people make those statements. I agree with you on Timmy.

[A.M.G.]

My mistake. It's 215 not 251, quick typing error. But yes, that is why I said people overrated Bosh. I was never putting Bosh down, just can't stand when people make those statements. I agree with you on Timmy.
Wow, I guess we're cool then. How often do ISH arguments end in near total consensus? Not often in my experience.

I assume you're a Clippers fan, so you have my condolences about the Brand Betrayal. Baron Davis is a pretty decent condolence prize, assuming he doesn't back out from that verbal agreement now. Would that ever be a stab in the face!

[qrich]

Wow, I guess we're cool then. How often do ISH arguments end in near total consensus? Not often in my experience.

I assume you're a Clippers fan, so you have my condolences about the Brand Betrayal. Baron Davis is a pretty decent condolence prize, assuming he doesn't back out from that verbal agreement now. Would that ever be a stab in the face!

Lol yeah, hardly ever, but this would be a stupid argument to continue. Baron already signed, but eh, I'm just dissapointed he threw the franchise under the bus and wasn't honest.

[stephanieg]

The problem I have with Brand is that he's not a winner. He's averaged good numbers on bad to mediocre teams, save that recent Clippers squad. He's like a slightly-better Shareef Abdur-Rahim.

LOL @ anyone calling anyone else "not a winner."

Was MJ not a winner in the 80s?

Was KG not a winner before this year?

Was Kobe not a winner after Shaq left (before this year)?

Is T-Mac not a winner?

Sometimes good players are on ****ty teams. Sometimes they get traded to good teams. Sometimes not. Deal.

[shaoyut]

jermain shouldnt be on here

[Kobe_6/8]

Bosh > Brand > Jermaine

[VengefulAngel]

Bosh > Brand > Jermaine

solid 7 year bump.

[Reggie43]

Jermaine for me as much as I hate his offensive game. Was a true defensive anchor and best defender out of the three easily.

[Papaya Petee]

How do people rate Bosh so high? He shoots a low clip for his position. Is soft on rebounds, doesn't play down low where hes supposed to all the time, falls in love with his jumpshot sometimes, isn't very strong.

Then there is JO, a guy who has been overrated his whole career. He has only had like 3 seasons avg over 10 rebounds a game? Probably the best defense out of the three, though once again that facet of his game was always overrated as well. Very strong player, though gets pushed around in the post, by guys who are smaller then him as well. Once again he is strong, but can't find good enough position to rebound well. Though a good help defender.

Then there is Brand. Unappreciated by most NBA fans, while being one of the most consisitent players in recent times. Was a star from day 1 in the league and has never been mentioned in the top tier of players. Been very good with injuries apart from this season. Hustle player, plays against guys who are bigger then him and doesn't budge. With his size, does very well on the boards against bigger opponents. Stays infront of his man on most plays and makes every shot difficult.

Honestly how does a player avg 20 and 10 over 9 seasons not get any mention in the top 15 players in the league?

Brand>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bosh and JO.

Honestly I'd love to hear the arguments that put Bosh or JO above Brand. I'm waiting.

word :roll: