Best Player Post Jordan (1999) who is it?

[TmacsRockets]

Best Player Post Jordan (1999) who is it?


Shaq (4 titles, 3 Finals MVP's, 1 Regular Season MVP)

Tim Duncan (4 Titles, 3 Finals MVP's, 2 Regular Season MVP's)

Kobe Bryant (3 Titles, 2 scoring Titles, 1 Regular Season MVP, trip to finals as leader)

Steve Nash (2 Regular Season MVP's)

Allen Iverson (1 Regular Season MVP, Trip to the Finals as the leader, 3rd all time in season ppg, and 2nd all time in playoff ppg)

Jason Kidd (2 trips to the Finals as the leader)

Kevin Garnett (1 title, 1 Regular Season MVP, 1 DPOY)

Paul Pierce (1 title, 1 Finals MVP)

Dirk Nowitzki (1 Regular Season MVP, Trip to the Finals)

Dwyane Wade (Finals MVP)

T-mac (30+ PER one season, 2 scoring titles, 4th all time in ppg in the playoffs)

[Kebab Stall]

I'd put Tim Duncan above Shaq, but that's just me.

Oh, you've missed Dirk's MVP and Kobe's.

[Silverbullit]

It's either Shaq or Duncan.

[Rasheed1]

Shaq
TD
AI
Kobe

like that

[Collie]

Shaq
TD

Kobe

Based on achievements and championships

[sixerfan82]

Shaq
TD

Kobe

Based on achievements and championships

/agree, but id throw KG in there for sheer "shoulder load"-ness

[MJ + KB = MB47]

Its so much thats goes into legacy but based on best player which u asked its Kobe Bryant.

[Buffalobraves]

I have to go with Kobe.

[clayton]

Kobe's the best so far as a player.

[Wade 3]

If T-mac is gonna be on the list then so should Lebron.

[usdmef9]

If T-mac is gonna be on the list then so should Lebron.

agreed. I would say as far as the best player is concerned no doubt Kobe.

[Lax4422Chik1342]

It's forum blue n gold # 8, oooops #24, actually he's number 1

[2LeTTeRS]

Kobe isn't even top 3. It goes Shaq, then Tim Duncan, then KG.

[plowking]

How is Kobe in this discussion?

What has he done?

Everything he did was with Shaq, and while with Shaq he was the sidekick.

It's Shaq, and easy. Tim Duncan may have the same resume and what not, but Shaq was more dominant, and a bigger threat.

[guy]

How are people saying Kobe over Shaq and Duncan? Kobe is probably the most talked about player since Jordan, but he hasn't been the best. Its Shaq or Duncan, I can't pick which one, but its definitely between those two. Kobe is probably 3rd.

[Collie]

KG is fourth. especially after the championship, which was the only thing missing in his outstanding career.

[bdreason]

Shaq.

Next.

[plowking]

Shaq.

Next.

Agreed. Its not a very difficult choice.

[iggy>]

Shaq
TD

Kobe

Based on achievements and championships
^couldnt agree more. td and shaq are interchangeable though.

[Revelation]

1. Shaq
2. Tim Duncan
3a. Kobe Bryant
3b. Kevin Garnett

[plowking]

^couldnt agree more. td and shaq are interchangeable though.

Disagree with Shaq and Duncan being interchangeable. Shaq was far more dominant. Winning 3 in a row and getting all of the Finals MVP's. Then winning another ring with Wade.

He also produced far better stats then Duncan in both the regular season and the playoffs.

[Eldrunko247]

I have to go with Kobe.
no

Kobe's the best so far as a player.
no

Its so much thats goes into legacy but based on best player which u asked its Kobe Bryant.
no

Shaq and Duncan hands down.

[DKLaker]

If T-mac is gonna be on the list then so should Lebron.


LMAO...True TRUE TRUE!!! Lebron has won playoff series AND made it to the finals.

BEST PLAYER...........KOBE, without a doubt!!!!!!

[SRZ66]

if tmac is gonna be on the list, so should michael redd

[plowking]

LMAO...True TRUE TRUE!!! Lebron has won playoff series AND made it to the finals.

BEST PLAYER...........KOBE, without a doubt!!!!!!

Do any of these Kobe fans care to explain why. I really don't see how he has been better then Shaq or Duncan.

[guy]

Disagree with Shaq and Duncan being interchangeable. Shaq was far more dominant. Winning 3 in a row and getting all of the Finals MVP's. Then winning another ring with Wade.

He also produced far better stats then Duncan in both the regular season and the playoffs.

Shaq definitely had a much greater peak, but I think its arguable since 1999, cause of Duncan's consistency. Shaq was the best player in the league for the most part from 1999 - 2005, but Duncan was at least a top 3 player during the same time. And since 2005, Duncan has stayed that way (maybe top 4 behind Kobe, Lebron, CP3 this year), while Shaq has declined alot every year since 2005, and has even gotten to the point that he probably isn't even a top 20 player anymore.

If we were comparing careers, I would easily give it to Shaq by a wide margin, but since 99, its either a toss-up, or Shaq by a very small margin.

[plowking]

Shaq definitely had a much greater peak, but I think its arguable since 1999, cause of Duncan's consistency. Shaq was the best player in the league for the most part from 1999 - 2005, but Duncan was at least a top 3 player during the same time. And since 2005, Duncan has stayed that way (maybe top 4 behind Kobe, Lebron, CP3 this year), while Shaq has declined alot every year since 2005, and has even gotten to the point that he probably isn't even a top 20 player anymore.

If we were comparing careers, I would easily give it to Shaq by a wide margin, but since 99, its either a toss-up, or Shaq by a very small margin.

After 05 Duncan has averaged around 19 and 11. That's IMO not really top 4 player in my eyes. Duncan has always had more talent surrounding him as well.

Shaq has declined of course as you would expect at age 36. Though I still think he was more dominant. Winning 3 championships in a row simply proves that he was more dominant then Duncan, and therefore the better player.

[Kebab Stall]

Do any of these Kobe fans care to explain why. I really don't see how he has been better then Shaq or Duncan.
Are you kidding me? This is ISH, where Kobe >>>> God. They don't need to explain why because, well.....Kobe >>>> God!

[guy]

After 05 Duncan has averaged around 19 and 11. That's IMO not really top 4 player in my eyes. Duncan has always had more talent surrounding him as well.

Shaq has declined of course as you would expect at age 36. Though I still think he was more dominant. Winning 3 championships in a row simply proves that he was more dominant then Duncan, and therefore the better player.

He also plays on a slower-paced team and brought alot of intangibles that can't be measured by stats like great defense. In the past 3 years, the only players that were either definitely or arguably a better player in any given season including the playoffs were Kobe, Lebron, Wade, CP3, KG, Nash, or Dirk. Ok, maybe top 3-4 every year since 05 is pushing it, but he's still been way better then Shaq the past few years, who like I said is probably not even a top 20 player anymore. And yes I acknowledge that Shaq WAS more dominant by alot, but if we're talking about 1999-2008, its close. If we were talking 1999-2005, it would be no contest.

And how do you say Duncan has had more talent surrounding him? Are you serious? His 2003 and 2005 championship teams don't compare to any of Shaq's championship teams, and if you just mean since 2005, the talent around Duncan has been about the same as the talent around Shaq except for the first half of 08.

[RajonKGcelts]

It's either Shaq or Duncan.

Yup

[Killer_Instinct]

Any answer other than Shaq, Duncan, or Kobe is not accurate. Can't go wrong with either three.

[Eldrunko247]

Any answer other than Shaq, Duncan, or Kobe is not accurate. Can't go wrong with either three.
yes you can. kobe does not belong in the same category. sorry but he doesn't. shaq and tim both have four titles as "the man". Kobe has 0.

[jjayfive]

best individual would be kobe...
but team and individual accomplishments would have to be shaq or tim..

[jjayfive]

oh..i would have to add AI with kobe...

[Eldrunko247]

best individual would be kobe...
but team and individual accomplishments would have to be shaq or tim..
how is kobe individually better than shaq or duncan? shaq and duncan in their primes were more rounded players than Kobe. kobe is better because he can score in flashy ways or score 81 pts?

[Killer_Instinct]

yes you can. kobe does not belong in the same category. sorry but he doesn't. shaq and tim both have four titles as "the man". Kobe has 0.


Any answer other than Shaq, Duncan, or Kobe is not accurate. Can't go wrong with either three.

[guy]

how is kobe individually better than shaq or duncan? shaq and duncan in their primes were more rounded players than Kobe. kobe is better because he can score in flashy ways or score 81 pts?

Agreed. Shaq in 2000 and 2001 had two of the best statistical seasons ever and that easily trumps Kobe's best statistical season. Duncan in his MVP years in 2002 and 2003 is up there with any of Kobe's season as well. I think Kobe has a great shot to surpass Duncan and a reasonable shot to pass Shaq careerwise, but since 99, I don't see how anyone can put Kobe over these guys.

[Eldrunko247]

Any answer other than Shaq, Duncan, or Kobe is not accurate. Can't go wrong with either three.
You failed to explain in detail why Kobe belongs in that category.

[veilside23]

Gotta go with the big fella. Shaq.. no question.

[crisoner]

Shaq hands down
Followed by Duncan


I would call this decade the Shaq and Duncan decade really.

[Killer_Instinct]

You failed to explain in detail why Kobe belongs in that category.


3-time NBA champion: 2000, 2001, 2002
NBA Most Valuable Player: 2008
2-time scoring champion: 2006, 2007
10-time NBA All-Star: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
Has started in each of his appearances
10 consecutive appearances (No All-Star game in 1999 due to league-wide lock-out)
2-time NBA All-Star Game MVP: 2002, 2007
10-time All-NBA Selection:
First Team: 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008
Second Team: 2000, 2001
Third Team: 1999, 2005
8-time All-Defensive Selection:
First Team: 2000, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008
Second Team: 2001, 2002
NBA All-Rookie Second Team: 1997
NBA Slam Dunk Contest champion: 1997
NBA regular season leader in:
points: 2003 (2,461), 2006 (2,832, 7th in NBA history), 2007 (2,430), 2008 (2,323)
points per game: 2006 (35.4, 9th in NBA history), 2007 (31.6)
field goals attempted: 2006 (2,173), 2007 (1,757), 2008 (1,690)
field goals made: 2003 (868), 2006 (978), 2007 (813)
free throws attempted: 2006 (819), 2007 (768)
free throws made: 2006 (696), 2007 (667)
2nd most points in a Game: 81 (January 22, 2006 vs. the Toronto Raptors)

NBA records
Kobe Bryant holds four and shares five NBA records:

Most three-point field goals made, one game: 12 (January 7, 2003 vs. Seattle SuperSonics; shared with Donyell Marshall)[90]
Most three-point field goals made, one half: 8 (March 28, 2003 vs. Washington Wizards; shared with 6 players).[90]
Most consecutive three-point field goals made, one game: 9 (January 7, 2003 vs. Seattle SuperSonics; shared with Latrell Sprewell and Ben Gordon).[91]
Most free throws made, one quarter: 14 (3rd quarter, December 20, 2005 vs. Dallas Mavericks; shared with 6 players).[92][93]
Most free throws attempted, one quarter: 16 (3rd quarter, December 20, 2005 vs. Dallas Mavericks; shared with 6 players).[92][93]
Youngest player to score 15,000 points: (27 Years, 136 days)
Youngest player to score 20,000 points: (29 years, 122 days old), surpassing Wilt Chamberlain, the previous holder of the record. Bryant also became one of the only three players to reach the milestone under the age of 30. The other two are Chamberlain (29 years, 134 days old) and Michael Jordan (29 years, 326 days old).[94]
Youngest Slam Dunk champion: (18 years, 175 days), after winning the contest at the 1997 NBA All-Star Weekend.
Youngest player to be named to the NBA All-Defensive Team: (1999–00)[95]
Youngest player to start a game: (18 Years, 158 days)

Lakers franchise records
Kobe Bryant holds or shares 30 Los Angeles Lakers franchise records:

Points
Season: 2,832 (2005–06)
Game: 81 (January 22, 2006 vs. Toronto Raptors)[96][4]
Half: 55 (2nd half, January 22, 2006 vs. Toronto Raptors).[96]
Quarter: 30 (twice, most recently on November 30, 2006 in 3rd quarter vs. Utah Jazz)[96]
Games scoring 50 points or more, career: 23[95]
Games scoring 50 points or more, season: 10 (2006–07)[95]
Games scoring 40 points or more, career: 92[97]
Games scoring 40 points or more, season: 27 (2005–06)[98]
Consecutive games of 50 points or more: 4 (March 16–March 23, 2007)[99]
Consecutive games of 40 points or more: 9 (February 6–February 23, 2003)[100]

Field goals made
Half: 18 (2nd half, January 22, 2006 vs. Toronto Raptors).[101]
Quarter: 11 (February 2, 1999 vs. Seattle SuperSonics).[102]
Free throws made
Game: 23 (twice, most recently on January 31, 2006 vs. New York Knicks).[103]
Game, playoffs: 21 (May 4, 2008 vs. Utah Jazz).[104]
Half: 16 (January 30, 2001 vs. Cleveland Cavaliers)[105]
Quarter: 14 (3rd quarter, December 20, 2005 vs. Dallas Mavericks)[106]
Quarter, playoffs: 11 (tied with 3 players; May 8, 1997 vs. Utah Jazz).[107]
Consecutive: 62 (January 11–January 22, 2006).[96]
Three-point field goals made and attempted
Career: 1,086 (1996–present)[2]
Career, playoffs: 177 (1996–present)[108]
Game: 12 (January 7, 2003 vs. Seattle SuperSonics).[91]
Half: 8 (1st half, March 28, 2003 vs. Washington Wizards).[109]
Consecutive: 9 (January 7, 2003 vs. Seattle SuperSonics).[91]
Season attempts: 518 (2005–06)[2]
Game attempts: 18 (January 7, 2003 vs. Seattle SuperSonics).[91]
Steals
Half: 6 (tied with 3 players; February 13, 2006 vs. Utah Jazz).[110]
Quarter, playoffs: 3 (tied with 6 players; May 17, 1999 vs. San Antonio Spurs).[111]
----------------

I don't expect you to look at all of those, I didn't even look at all of those. His resume stacks up good against Shaq and Duncan. I'm sure theres is even better. The two have been the most winningnest guys in the L. Kobe has been the most talented. Yada yada yada, blah, blah, blah. If you don't think so, fine. At the end of the day, who really cares about this? I'm bored just thinking about it. This has been went over 1000 times. There are different opinions in the world that matter, unless this is Nazi Germany.

Fourtantley, I'm glad I don't live in China now and you're not Head of the Gov't or I'd be castrated for my beliefs. Imagine that. Everyone is wrong but you. That's how you're coming off. Shaq and Duncan have been great. They always delivered on the big stage, and Kobe at time dissapeared when it mattered the most. This years Finals showing by him was horrible. But considering the feats he's accomplished though over the last few years, he is still in the mix. That's why it's arguable. It's an opinion. Did I say fact? I'm sorry you don't agree, but at the end of the day, I really could care less if someone doesn't think Kobe is a Post Jordan great.

Does it matter? It won't affect what these guys accomplish in the future. You have your beliefs, the guy next door has his. Doesn't make any of them wrong.


You're not changing my view on the subject, I'm not changing yours. Move on and let's get laid...


(No Homo!!!)

[nycelt84]

Shaquille O'Neal with Tim Duncan a close second.

[Loki]

Its so much thats goes into legacy but based on best player which u asked its Kobe Bryant.

That's nonsense. The best player is the most effective player. Both Shaq (by far) and Duncan have been more effective players than Kobe Bryant.

[Scott Pippen]

Tim Duncan:applause:

[Knoe Itawl]

*yawn*

Same old thing. The Kobe Fans have to put him somewhere that no one else is. Can't they just be sent to their rooms or something?

It goes:

Duncan/Shaq
KG

The Rest

[VCMVP1551]

It's clearly Tim Duncan. Shaq was best between 1999-2004, but counting all the years, it's Duncan, since Shaq didn't play much in the previous three seasons... and didn't show much in the games he did player over the last three seasons.

No you're clearly WRONG.

Shaq's post Jordan accomplishments.
4 championships
3 Finals MVP's
5 Finals appearances
1 scoring title
1 regular season MVP(deserved 3)
Won 67 wins one season.
Led the Lakers to a record 15-1 postseason run.
Led a 3peat.
Became only the second player in history to win 3 straight Finals MVP's.

Shaq's regular season stats.
1999-2000 29.7 ppg(1st in the NBA), 13.6 rpg(2nd in the NBA), 3.8 apg, 3.0 bpg(3rd in the NBA), 57.4 FG%(1st in the NBA), 40.0 mpg, 67-15 record(Best in the NBA)
2000-2001 28.7 ppg(3rd in the NBA), 12.7 rpg(3rd in the NBA), 3.7 apg, 2.8 bpg, 57.2 FG%(1st in the NBA), 39.8 mpg, 56-26 record(2nd in the NBA)
2001-2002 27.2 ppg(2nd in the NBA), 10.7 rpg, 3.0 apg, 2.0 bpg, 57.9 FG%(1st in the NBA), 36.1 mpg, 58-24 record(2nd in the NBA)
2002-2003 27.5 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 3.1 apg, 2.4 bpg, 57.4 FG%(2nd in the NBA), 37.8 mpg, 50-32 record
2003-2004 21.5 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 2.9 apg, 2.5 bpg, 58.4 FG%(1st in the NBA), 36.8 mpg, 56-26 record

Shaq's playoff stats
1999 26.6 ppg, 11.6 rpg, 2.3 apg, 2.9 bpg, 51.0 FG%, 39.4 mpg
2000 30.7 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.1 apg, 2.4 bpg, 56.6 FG%, 43.5 mpg
2001 30.4 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.2 apg, 2.4 bpg, 55.5 FG%, 42.3 mpg
2002 28.5 ppg, 12.6 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.5 bpg, 52.9 FG%, 40.8 mpg
2003 27.0 ppg, 14.8 rpg, 3.7 apg, 2.8 bpg, 53.5 FG%, 40.1 mpg
2004 21.5 ppg, 13.2 rpg, 2.5 apg, 2.8 bpg, 59.3 FG%, 41.7 mpg

Shaq's Finals Stats
2000 Finals
38.0 ppg, 16.7 rpg, 2.3 apg, 2.7 bpg 61.1 FG%

2001 Finals
33.0 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 4.8 apg, 3.4 bpg, 57.3 FG%

2002 Finals
36.3 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 3.8 apg, 2.8 bpg, 59.5 FG%

2004 Finals
26.6 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 1.6 apg, 0.6 bpg, 63.1 FG%

Those years with the Lakers made it almost impossible for Duncan to catch him, then he went on to have a couple of excellent seasons in Miami.

2004-2005 22.9 ppg, 10.4 rpg(6th in the NBA), 2.7 apg, 2.3 bpg(6th in the NBA), 60.1 FG%(1st in the NBA), 34.1 mpg, 59-23 record(best in the East)
2005-2006 20.0 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 1.9 apg, 1.8 bpg, 60.0 FG%(1st in the NBA), 30.6 mpg 52-30 record

So in those first 2 seasons in Miami he nearly won MVP his first season(he deserved the award) and his second season he still averaged 20 and 9 on a championship team.

You included his championship season when you said he hasn't shown much the last 3 seasons.

2006 Eastern Conference Finals vs Detroit's tough frontline
21.7 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 2.3 bpg, 65.5 FG%

Then when Wade got injured in 2007 Shaq carried the Heat to a 16-7 record while averaging 19 and 8 to get them into the playoffs.

The rankings for top 4 post Jordan players are obvious.

1.Shaquille O'Neal
2.Tim Duncan
3.Kobe Bryant
4.Kevin Garnett

Shaq flat out destroyed the league and won just as much as Duncan. There's no argument for Duncan over Shaq.

[jjayfive]

individual as in scoring....40-50 point games etc........i put him with AI......obviously, if there was a draft with everyone in their primes...shaq and duncan would go 1 and 2....

[Lakers]

It goes:

Duncan/Shaq
KG




Sorry but KG(and Kobe) don't even belong in the same breath as Shaq and TD. His text touching theirs is an insult alone. Shaq and TD are on a tier of their own Post-99 just like Jordan, Kareem and Wilt are on a tier of their own All-Time.

[jjayfive]

VC would have been in that kobe, AI level had he not got injured or shut it down in toronto......he had a few year run where he looked like the next jordan.....

[VCMVP1551]

Since Jordan:

MVPs: Duncan 2, Shaq 1
Championships: Duncan 4, Shaq 4
Finals MVPs: Duncan 3, Shaq 3
All-NBA 1st teams: Duncan 8, Shaq 7
All-NBA 2nd teams: Duncan 2, Shaq 1
All-defensive 1st teams: Duncan 8, Shaq 0
All-defensive 2nd teams: Duncan 2, Shaq 3
Selected all-star: Duncan 9, Shaq 8

No argument MY ASS!!

Shaq was more dominant between the 1999-00 and 2001-02 seasons than Duncan was over any 3 season period since MJ left, but overall, over the entire 10 seasons since Jordan retired, Duncan is better.

The All-NBA teams mean nothing. If Duncan didn't insist on being listed as a forward even since Robinson retired then see where he'd be on those. MVP awards don't mean much either. Shaq was robbed twice.

Duncan has only been better than Shaq for the last 3 seasons and 2002-2003 while Shaq was better every other season and nearly as good in 2002-2003.

Comparing Duncan to Shaq is laughable. The only big men who dominated enough to be compared to Shaq are Wilt, Hakeem, Russell and Kareem.

[72-10]

Meh, in his prime, Shaq's domination was so much more clear cut. Shaq is greater, if only by a little.

[knicks4eva]

kobe then kg

[Diesel J]

Any answer other than Shaq, Duncan, or Kobe is not accurate. Can't go wrong with either three.

You mean,any answer other than Shaq or Duncan is not accurate.KObe doesn't belong on the list.Shaq is clearly the best post-Jordan era player

[VCMVP1551]

The question is where would Shaq be on the all-NBA teams if Duncan was listed as a center. He won the MVP in 01 and 02, so he would definitely be all-NBA 1st team those two seasons. The only all-NBA 1st teams he would miss as a C would be 98-99 (Mourning), 99-00 (Shaq), 00-01 is uncertain, looking back, Shaq would deserve to be all-NBA 1st team more than Duncan, but remember that Duncan actually came 2nd in MVP voting that year after Iverson..



Plus he wouldn't be all-NBA 1st as a C Shaq's 1st season with the Heat, where Shaq was selected, and this last season where Dwight Howard would most likely be selected over him.. That would still leave, at least 5, maybe 6 seasons where Duncan would be all-NBA 1st team as a C, and Shaq would have at least 2, maybe 3 seasons where he would still be all-NBA 1st team. So the difference in all-NBA 1st team appearances would be even bigger between the two than it is now, where Shaq is listed as a C and Duncan as a PF.


As far as all-defensive teams go, he would maybe get one all-defensive 1st team, or maybe not a single one, but neither would Shaq. On the other hand, he would have many more all-defensive 2nd teams than Shaq, who would only have one (99-00).

Shaq finished 2nd in DPOY voting the same year he was all-defensive 2nd team. Kind of bad luck in that sense because the DPOY was at his position.

At center for defense you had Mourning, Mutombo, Wallace and Camby. All DPOY winners(even though i don't feel Camby deserved it).


Duncan isn't a stranger to being robbed of the MVP either, he should've won it over Malone in 98-99, when he came second in voting.. BTW, that is also a year where Duncan was better than Shaq, the first season after Jordan's retirement. Also, the 01-02 season, they were really close and Duncan was better in 03-04. And Duncan was definitely better in 02-03.

Mourning should have won MVP in 1999. He was the leagues best defender, he led the Heat to the number 1 seed without a David Robinson level player and he put up 20 and 11.

As for Shaq vs Duncan season by season

1999 Probably Duncan
2000 Shaq easily
2001 Shaq again
2002 Shaq
2003 Duncan
2004 Shaq
2005 Shaq
2006 Duncan
2007 Duncan
2008 Duncan

So each of them had the same amount of seasons where they were better than the other but Shaq had by far the 2 most dominant seasons and he was the best player in the league hands down for a solid 3 seasons in a row.

[miles berg]

Duncan and Shaq, its a wash. After that it is a bunch of people. You have LeBron James, he has been doing it for four years now, his single season numbers are as great as anyone if not the best. You have guys like Nash, Nowitzki, Garnett, and Bryant that have been doing it for years. Jason Kidd has been outstanding. Allen Iverson.

[Showtime]

What's this "as a player" comments? Basketball is a team sport, where winning is everything. Tim Duncan has not only been a premiere player on BOTH ends of the floor, but he's lead his team to several titles.

Duncan
Shaq



Kobe
AI

[Sir Charles]

1-Shaq and Iverson.

2-Duncan

3-Garnett

4-Bryant (with a question mark:rolleyes: )

5-Kidd

6-Nash or Hill

7-Lebron James (he will be the Best in the following 10-12 years)

The rest don`t even count to being compared to the Greats of the 80s and early 90s

[Thom.Yorke]

Well, I think you need to be more specific with the question.

As far as skilled basketball player, Kobe

Accomplishments. Shaq.

Obviously Shaq and kobe are totally different players.

But shaq was a better center per se' as kobe is a pg. not to discredit kobe at all. he is the best player after jordan left the league.

[NY Comeback]

Tim Duncan, by far. Followed by Shaq. Next being KG, or Kobe is debatable; though I'd probably put Kobe a little higher considering he has more rings--though he was the second option on all those teams.

[BrianScalabrine]

Tim Duncan

/thread

[AllNBAArenas]

The PPG and FG% doesn't lie.

1. Shaq







A very distant second - Duncan





A very distant 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th with no particular order


LeBron
KG
Kobe
AI


The thing is that the hardcore Hakeem and Duncan fans can argue until they are blue in the face but history will put Shaq in a league away from these guys. Mainstream, casual sports fans hardly even recognize Duncan, after he retires his legacy will quickly shrivel up.

[xcesswee]

Shaq then Duncan. Any person who thinks Kobe belongs in that group is ignorant.

[Loki]

Well, I think you need to be more specific with the question.

As far as skilled basketball player, Kobe

Accomplishments. Shaq.

Obviously Shaq and kobe are totally different players.

But shaq was a better center per se' as kobe is a pg. not to discredit kobe at all. he is the best player after jordan left the league.

LOL @ Kobe fans and their incessant talk about "skills." :oldlol: Who was the more effective player? That's all that matters.

[plowking]

The PPG and FG% doesn't lie.

1. Shaq







A very distant second - Duncan





A very distant 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th with no particular order


LeBron
KG
Kobe
AI


The thing is that the hardcore Hakeem and Duncan fans can argue until they are blue in the face but history will put Shaq in a league away from these guys. Mainstream, casual sports fans hardly even recognize Duncan, after he retires his legacy will quickly shrivel up.


How is a player like Lebron in this discussion?

[Mr. Bryant]

Has to be Kobe.

Simply because he is playing the hardest position in the game of basketball and not taking the majority of his shots 10 feet in.

[guy]

Has to be Kobe.

Simply because he is playing the hardest position in the game of basketball and not taking the majority of his shots 10 feet in.

Ummm thats some dumb logic.

[west]

Has to be Kobe.

Simply because he is playing the hardest position in the game of basketball and not taking the majority of his shots 10 feet in.
that's his problem,taking tough shot all the time

[Diesel J]

LOL @ Kobe fans and their incessant talk about "skills." :oldlol: Who was the more effective player? That's all that matters.

exactly:roll:

[TmacsRockets]

how is kobe individually better than shaq or duncan? shaq and duncan in their primes were more rounded players than Kobe. kobe is better because he can score in flashy ways or score 81 pts?

That's ridiculous. Shaq and Duncan and T-mac are better because they are more efficient and have led in PER.

Iverson is better because he has more scoring titles.

[TmacsRockets]

Has to be Kobe.

Simply because he is playing the hardest position in the game of basketball and not taking the majority of his shots 10 feet in.

Dude you should be banned for stupidity.

[3stat2]

Nothing against other players, but I think Shaq and Duncan are head and shoulders above everyone else - not only in terms of statistics, playoff results and achievements, but in the way they anchored their teams and did it as well as they did. They completely controlled games. Duncan's defensive presence is still one of the best in the league, while Shaq during that championship stretch was almost goat-like in the way he dominated the opposition.

I am grateful that I've been able to watch them over the years - but I'm also a little disappointed that I'm not able to watch them in their primes right now, since I'm older and have a better understanding of basketball. If I watched them in their primes, today, I'd probably appreciate just how great they were even more so.

Here's to 2 amazing basketball players
:cheers:

[Knoe Itawl]

Sorry but KG(and Kobe) don't even belong in the same breath as Shaq and TD. His text touching theirs is an insult alone. Shaq and TD are on a tier of their own Post-99 just like Jordan, Kareem and Wilt are on a tier of their own All-Time.

I actually meant it more like

Shaq/Duncan










KG

The rest

[zadok]

Shaq
______ <---- held for Lebron

Duncan
Bryant

[MJ + KB = MB47]

How is Kobe in this discussion?

What has he done?

Everything he did was with Shaq, and while with Shaq he was the sidekick.

It's Shaq, and easy. Tim Duncan may have the same resume and what not, but Shaq was more dominant, and a bigger threat.
a dominate guard should always be consired better than a dominate center they do way more all shaq had to do is flop his big ass under the rim no tryna undermind him but when it comes to being the best player post Jordan its kobe get over it.

[Kebab Stall]

a dominate guard should always be consired better than a dominate center they do way more all shaq had to do is flop his big ass under the rim no tryna undermind him but when it comes to being the best player post Jordan its kobe get over it.
Well if no one is going to through out a legit reason as to why Kobe is ranked above Shaq, Duncan and even Garnett, then I guess I can just throw out some names without giving a legit reason?

How about:

Steve Nash
Dirk
Elton Brand
Michael Redd

See how easy it is to just say names? Until you give a legit, solid reason as to why Kobe should even be mentioned as top three, you should stop saying that it's not even close.

Kobe has not been better than Tim Duncan or Shaq, this past decade.


a dominate guard should always be consired better than a dominate center
That doesn't even make sense and I'm also glad that you provided a reason as to why you believe this.....oh wait, no you didn't.

[allball]

If you're talking purely about talent then Kobe is the best player since Jordan. if youre speaking of accomplishment then I would say Duncan. Shaq has been the most dominant player offensively but that doesnt mean he's the best all-around player in the league.

[Knoe Itawl]

a dominate guard should always be consired better than a dominate center they do way more all shaq had to do is flop his big ass under the rim no tryna undermind him but when it comes to being the best player post Jordan its kobe get over it.

Seriously, people like this should be banned. But the mods have their heads so far up Laker ass, they likely cheer this sort of thing.

[plowking]

If you're talking purely about talent then Kobe is the best player since Jordan. if youre speaking of accomplishment then I would say Duncan. Shaq has been the most dominant player offensively but that doesnt mean he's the best all-around player in the league.

How? Shaq is better individually again. A team led by Shaq would lead you the furthest into the playoffs.

Shaq is simply a better player.

[Knoe Itawl]

If you're talking purely about talent then Kobe is the best player since Jordan. if youre speaking of accomplishment then I would say Duncan. Shaq has been the most dominant player offensively but that doesnt mean he's the best all-around player in the league.

Talent does not equal best. Why is it so hard for some people to get that through their thick skulls? Derrick Coleman had all the talent in the world. Does that make him the best PF of all time?

And Shaq was not just dominant offensively, do you understand basketball? He was also a dominant rebounder, shot blocker and intimidator. His presence alone deterred people from going to the rim.

Also, screw best "all around player". that also doesn't equal best. Scottie Pippen is a better all around player than Shaq. So you're saying you'd rather have Scottie over prime Shaq?

Please learn basketball and stop talking foolishness.

[allball]

Talent does not equal best. Why is it so hard for some people to get that through their thick skulls? Derrick Coleman had all the talent in the world. Does that make him the best PF of all time?

And Shaq was not just dominant offensively, do you understand basketball? He was also a dominant rebounder, shot blocker and intimidator. His presence alone deterred people from going to the rim.

Also, screw best "all around player". that also doesn't equal best. Scottie Pippen is a better all around player than Shaq. So you're saying you'd rather have Scottie over prime Shaq?

Please learn basketball and stop talking foolishness.

ha ha. you distort my words. in terms of basketball talent and skill plus numerous other factors, Kobe has been the best player since Jordan. period. not every talented player is a great player which is true.

Shaq was a solid rebounder but certainly not dominant. considering his size and height and lack of tenaciousness in going after the ball, he is a slightly above average rebounder. He averaged over 13 rebounds 3 times in his career, two of which were his first 2 years in the league. He never ONCE led the league in rebounding.


Shaq was a good shot blocker on the strong side. but how often did he face up on an all star center or PF and block his shot with great footwork? how many times did he rotate weakside and stuff an all star caliber wing player say like a Vince Carter? how many defensive plays to win games?

if you were to look at his stats you could ascertain that he must have been dominant in those areas but I would disagree. Hakeem was more dominant in those areas than Shaq. Duncan controls more aspects of the game on both ends of the floor. Rodman was a dominant rebounder because those rebounds controlled the game. D. Robinson was a dominant defender.

no I wouldnt take Pippen over Shaq. he's a great center. would probably take him over Kobe. doesnt mean Shaqs a better player. he's a dominant inside presence for sure.

Shaq was a great player in his prime def one of the best of all time but has always been surrounded by a lot of talent. Kobe has proven he could take a team to the Finals without another superstar on the team.

Kobe was just as dominant in the 01 and 02 playoffs as Shaq prompting Shaq to call Kobe "... the best player in the NBA"

and I'm not a big Kobe fan. never have been. I just know basketball.

[gotbacon23]

i think it has to be TD or Shaq without question.

[Knoe Itawl]

ha ha. you distort my words. in terms of basketball talent and skill plus numerous other factors, Kobe has been the best player since Jordan. period. not every talented player is a great player which is true.

lol @ "period". That's garbage. Tim Duncan and Shaq have not only accomplished more than Kobe, but have been more dominant players as THE MAIN MEN on their teams. for you to say "period" as if it's a given that Kobe's been better shows you really don't understand basketball like you say you do. Scoring 81 points on the worst defensive team in the league during a regular season game is nice and all, but it doesn't make you the best.

Shaq was a solid rebounder but certainly not dominant. considering his size and height and lack of tenaciousness in going after the ball, he is a slightly above average rebounder. He averaged over 13 rebounds 3 times in his career, two of which were his first 2 years in the league. He never ONCE led the league in rebounding.

The point is that his value is more than his offensive abilities. shaq was a package of intimidation, both on the offensive and defensiv ends in his prime. Something that will never show up on the stat sheet is how many drives he intimidated simply by being on the floor and players not wanting to take it to him. And he often put up great rebounding games in the playoffs, you know where it counts the most.

Shaq was a good shot blocker on the strong side. but how often did he face up on an all star center or PF and block his shot with great footwork? how many times did he rotate weakside and stuff an all star caliber wing player say like a Vince Carter? how many defensive plays to win games?

if you were to look at his stats you could ascertain that he must have been dominant in those areas but I would disagree. Hakeem was more dominant in those areas than Shaq. Duncan controls more aspects of the game on both ends of the floor. Rodman was a dominant rebounder because those rebounds controlled the game. D. Robinson was a dominant defender.

When did I ever say Shaq was as good a defender as Duncan or Hakeem? I'm talking about his PACKAGE. You implied that he was only valuable offensively when that's simply not the case.

no I wouldnt take Pippen over Shaq. he's a great center. would probably take him over Kobe. doesnt mean Shaqs a better player. he's a dominant inside presence for sure.

Sorry, but this is just stupid. Shaq's not a better player than Kobe but you would take him over him? You're trying to twist and turn and make excuses but it's simple. It doesn't matter who's more "talented" :rolleyes: it doesn't matter who the "best overall player" is. :rolleyes: It doesn't matter who can make the most difficult three point shots :rolleyes: All that matters is who is the most EFFECTIVE player, and who's going to have the greatest impact on winning games. That's who the BEST player is. So for all of Scottie's overall abilities, and for all of Kobe's overall abilities, no one with any sense is going to take them over a prime Shaq. Why? Because he's a BETTER, MORE EFFECTIVE, whatever you want to call it, player than they are.

Shaq was a great player in his prime def one of the best of all time but has always been surrounded by a lot of talent. Kobe has proven he could take a team to the Finals without another superstar on the team.

Again, this is stupid. Kobe took a team with excellent players like Gasol, Odom, solid role players who stepped up in Fisher, Vujacic, etc. who just happened to be coached by A NINE RING HOLDING COACH. So for you to pretend that he just took a bunch of junk to the Finals is stupid. And how did he play when he GOT to the Finals? Like trash, which he has done 4 out of 5 times now. Shaq dominated every Finals he was in in his prime.

Kobe was just as dominant in the 01 and 02 playoffs as Shaq prompting Shaq to call Kobe "... the best player in the NBA"

So this explains why Kobe has played poorly in 4 out of the 5 Finals trips he's been to? And you don't know basketball if you don't realize how a player of Shaq's magnitude helped Kobe's game by drawing defensive pressure away from him. When you played the Lakers, teams were concerned about Shaq first and second and THEN everyone else. It's simple basketball. You worry more about the 7'1 340 pound top 10 all time player, dominant low post presence before you worry about a sg.

By the way, Shaq also called DWade the best player in the world. Do you agree with that? If not, including what Shaq said about Kobe in your argument is meaningless.

and I'm not a big Kobe fan. never have been. I just know basketball.

If you call Kobe the best player since Jordan, you don't know anything about basketball.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

threads like this should always come with qualifiers...like a definition of "Best".
"Best" and most "Impactful" MAY be considered two different things.

Generally speaking, a SG is supposed to be a primary scorer, whereas a PG is supposed to be a distributor. Of course, those are generalizations. therefore, a PG is MUCH MORE likely to "make his teammates better".

A center can have a greater "impact" than any player, given his position, both offensively and defensively, in the paint.

In the end, I would say that the most "impactful" player, post-MJ, has been a healthy, motivated Shaq....followed closely by TD.

[jjayfive]

wow..another kobe topic...

[Knoe Itawl]

threads like this should always come with qualifiers...like a definition of "Best".
"Best" and most "Impactful" MAY be considered two different things.

Generally speaking, a SG is supposed to be a primary scorer, whereas a PG is supposed to be a distributor. Of course, those are generalizations. therefore, a PG is MUCH MORE likely to "make his teammates better".

A center can have a greater "impact" than any player, given his position, both offensively and defensively, in the paint.

In the end, I would say that the most "impactful" player, post-MJ, has been a healthy, motivated Shaq....followed closely by TD.

Quite frankly, I mostly see this differentiation between "skilled" "most impactful" "best", etc. made by Kobe fans. They usually come up with garbage like "he's the most skilled player ever" or "he's the most complete offensive player ever" and this kind of thing in order to make him greater than he is.

As far as I'm concerned "best" means "most impactful" because no one gives a shyt about how many fancy crossovers you can do, how many off balance three pointers you can make or any of that shyt if they have to choose betwen that and a prime Shaq. They're going to pick the BEST player, ie the player that gives them the BEST chance of winning.

That's the way you should look at it. BEST player = player that gives you the BEST chance of winning.

[TmacsRockets]

Kobe is like 25th all time in playoff ppg. Vince Carter, t-mac, Iverson and literally every wing player in the league is better than him come playoff time. Iverson has 4 scoring titles, t-mac has 2 and Kobe has 2.

[Dbrog]

I'm talking about his PACKAGE.
.................................................. ....................
If you call Kobe the best player since Jordan, you don't know anything about basketball.

If you would learn to read, he said Kobe is the most talented/skilled player since Jordan (which he is and it's not close). Allball also said if you include everything in the discussion aka the best player it would be Duncan. I can see where some people can say shaq, but I would personally go with Duncan as well. He has never really had a legit allstar with him. Just very good role players.

Oh, and please stop talking about Shaq's package...that's gross.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Quite frankly, I mostly see this differentiation between "skilled" "most impactful" "best", etc. made by Kobe fans. They usually come up with garbage like "he's the most skilled player ever" or "he's the most complete offensive player ever" and this kind of thing in order to make him greater than he is.

As far as I'm concerned "best" means "most impactful" because no one gives a shyt about how many fancy crossovers you can do, how many off balance three pointers you can make or any of that shyt if they have to choose betwen that and a prime Shaq. They're going to pick the BEST player, ie the player that gives them the BEST chance of winning.

That's the way you should look at it. BEST player = player that gives you the BEST chance of winning.

Diff folks look at it diff ways. NBA personnel have said repeatedly that Kobe is the "best all-around player since MJ". But that, imo, does not mean he is the most impactful. Outside of MJ, a SG has never been the most impactful player. Its almost always a PG or a Center ("the two hardest positions to fill", as they say). Occasionally a guy like Karl Malone, Barkley, or TD comes along and dominates.

The "Best" player depends entirely on how someone chooses to define "Best".

[Kobe24]

Shaq
TD
AI
Kobe

like that

Please delete your account. :oldlol:

[guy]

Diff folks look at it diff ways. NBA personnel have said repeatedly that Kobe is the "best all-around player since MJ". But that, imo, does not mean he is the most impactful. Outside of MJ, a SG has never been the most impactful player. Its almost always a PG or a Center ("the two hardest positions to fill", as they say). Occasionally a guy like Karl Malone, Barkley, or TD comes along and dominates.

The "Best" player depends entirely on how someone chooses to define "Best".

Well the whole point of the game is to win, so the most appropriate definition is the player that can contribute the most to wins. So with that definition, I don't see how anyone can argue Kobe or anyone else over Shaq or Duncan since 99.

[Denali]

Duncan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kobe

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Well the whole point of the game is to win, so the most appropriate definition is the player that can contribute the most to wins. So with that definition, I don't see how anyone can argue Kobe or anyone else over Shaq or Duncan since 99.

since it is widely agreed that centers "contribute the most to wins", perhaps your entire starting 5 should be centers.
Obviously, I'm being extreme here, but you get the point. A dominant center is going to contribute more to wins than a dominant SF, a dominant SG, and according to many, a dominant PG.

[guy]

since it is widely agreed that centers "contribute the most to wins", perhaps your entire starting 5 should be centers.
Obviously, I'm being extreme here, but you get the point. A dominant center is going to contribute more to wins than a dominant SF, a dominant SG, and according to many, a dominant PG.

No thats not really the case since we've dominant SGs, PGs, SFs, and PFs who all can make a case for themselves as the GOAT or at least top 5 players of all-time. Sure its more likely for a center to dominate, but at the same time its not like every single center is a dominate player and there are plenty of winning teams where the center was not the best player. But at the same time I do get what you're saying, and comparing players across positions is kind of a hard thing to do, since there all expected to do different things. But if we're going to have the discussion of the "best", the most appropriate definition is "most impactful" and "who contributes the most wins". If you go by most versatile or skilled, then Rasheed > Shaq, do you see what's wrong with that?

[Knoe Itawl]

No thats not really the case since we've dominant SGs, PGs, SFs, and PFs who all can make a case for themselves as the GOAT or at least top 5 players of all-time. Sure its more likely for a center to dominate, but at the same time its not like every single center is a dominate player and there are plenty of winning teams where the center was not the best player. But at the same time I do get what you're saying, and comparing players across positions is kind of a hard thing to do, since there all expected to do different things. But if we're going to have the discussion of the "best", the most appropriate definition is "most impactful" and "who contributes the most wins". If you go by most versatile or skilled, then Rasheed > Shaq, do you see what's wrong with that?

Exactly.

Just because dominant bigs tend to be the most valuable doesn't mean other players can't be better than them.

Again, I primarily see Kobe fans trying to draw all these differentiations between "skill" and "best" and all that kind of thing.

Best should mean the player that gives you the best chance of winning, or in other words contributes the most to a team's success.

There is just no way Bryant has done that more than Shaq or Duncan.

[chains5000]

Shaq or Duncan. I don't which one, but clearly one of the two.

[allball]

ha ha. you distort my words. in terms of basketball talent and skill plus numerous other factors, Kobe has been the best player since Jordan. period. not every talented player is a great player which is true.

lol @ "period". That's garbage. Tim Duncan and Shaq have not only accomplished more than Kobe, but have been more dominant players as THE MAIN MEN on their teams. for you to say "period" as if it's a given that Kobe's been better shows you really don't understand basketball like you say you do. Scoring 81 points on the worst defensive team in the league during a regular season game is nice and all, but it doesn't make you the best.

Shaq was a solid rebounder but certainly not dominant. considering his size and height and lack of tenaciousness in going after the ball, he is a slightly above average rebounder. He averaged over 13 rebounds 3 times in his career, two of which were his first 2 years in the league. He never ONCE led the league in rebounding.

The point is that his value is more than his offensive abilities. shaq was a package of intimidation, both on the offensive and defensiv ends in his prime. Something that will never show up on the stat sheet is how many drives he intimidated simply by being on the floor and players not wanting to take it to him. And he often put up great rebounding games in the playoffs, you know where it counts the most.

Shaq was a good shot blocker on the strong side. but how often did he face up on an all star center or PF and block his shot with great footwork? how many times did he rotate weakside and stuff an all star caliber wing player say like a Vince Carter? how many defensive plays to win games?

if you were to look at his stats you could ascertain that he must have been dominant in those areas but I would disagree. Hakeem was more dominant in those areas than Shaq. Duncan controls more aspects of the game on both ends of the floor. Rodman was a dominant rebounder because those rebounds controlled the game. D. Robinson was a dominant defender.

When did I ever say Shaq was as good a defender as Duncan or Hakeem? I'm talking about his PACKAGE. You implied that he was only valuable offensively when that's simply not the case.

no I wouldnt take Pippen over Shaq. he's a great center. would probably take him over Kobe. doesnt mean Shaqs a better player. he's a dominant inside presence for sure.

Sorry, but this is just stupid. Shaq's not a better player than Kobe but you would take him over him? You're trying to twist and turn and make excuses but it's simple. It doesn't matter who's more "talented" :rolleyes: it doesn't matter who the "best overall player" is. :rolleyes: It doesn't matter who can make the most difficult three point shots :rolleyes: All that matters is who is the most EFFECTIVE player, and who's going to have the greatest impact on winning games. That's who the BEST player is. So for all of Scottie's overall abilities, and for all of Kobe's overall abilities, no one with any sense is going to take them over a prime Shaq. Why? Because he's a BETTER, MORE EFFECTIVE, whatever you want to call it, player than they are.

Shaq was a great player in his prime def one of the best of all time but has always been surrounded by a lot of talent. Kobe has proven he could take a team to the Finals without another superstar on the team.

Again, this is stupid. Kobe took a team with excellent players like Gasol, Odom, solid role players who stepped up in Fisher, Vujacic, etc. who just happened to be coached by A NINE RING HOLDING COACH. So for you to pretend that he just took a bunch of junk to the Finals is stupid. And how did he play when he GOT to the Finals? Like trash, which he has done 4 out of 5 times now. Shaq dominated every Finals he was in in his prime.

Kobe was just as dominant in the 01 and 02 playoffs as Shaq prompting Shaq to call Kobe "... the best player in the NBA"

So this explains why Kobe has played poorly in 4 out of the 5 Finals trips he's been to? And you don't know basketball if you don't realize how a player of Shaq's magnitude helped Kobe's game by drawing defensive pressure away from him. When you played the Lakers, teams were concerned about Shaq first and second and THEN everyone else. It's simple basketball. You worry more about the 7'1 340 pound top 10 all time player, dominant low post presence before you worry about a sg.

By the way, Shaq also called DWade the best player in the world. Do you agree with that? If not, including what Shaq said about Kobe in your argument is meaningless.

and I'm not a big Kobe fan. never have been. I just know basketball.

If you call Kobe the best player since Jordan, you don't know anything about basketball.

Shaq's effectiveness on the boards and the defensive end were predicated on his size not his defensive skill or his aggressiveness. he simply took up so much area in the lanes and paint.

no doubt having Shaq on your team gets you wins. being the best player doesnt always get you wins if you dont have the right players around you. much easier to build around a great center than any other position.

and I would say that while Shaq was feared, the better coaches could take away or minimize elements of his game but when you played the Lakers in the early part of this decade from 01 to 04, you feared Kobe down the stretch.

no doubt Kobe has had some stinkers but it hasnt been 4 out of 5. I believe Kobe was hurt in 00. he barely played the first two games and missed the third but it was Kobe who saved them in the WCF in 00 when Shaq had lackluster games 6 and 7 and Kobe took over. he had 11 rebounds in game 7 to Shaq's 9 and 4 blocks to Shaq's 1. he was also the catalyst of the 4th quarter run that led to the comeback.

he did have bad finals in 04 and 08. he def played well in 01 (had a 48/16 game against SA) and 02 thorughout the whole playoffs including down the stretch of the WCF game 7 against the Kings.

Shaq called D-Wade the best player to jab at Kobe and rub it in his face.

I believe youre confusing size,strength agility and physical presence with playing ability.

[guy]

Shaq's effectiveness on the boards and the defensive end were predicated on his size not his defensive skill or his aggressiveness. he simply took up so much area in the lanes and paint.



So what? I hate it when people use the whole "Shaq could only do that cause of his size" argument. Does it matter? Cause you can seriously use that for almost all NBA players. For example, I can say some 5'9 Joe Schmo who is not in the NBA but has alot of aggresiveness and defensive skill for his size would be just as effective as Shane Battier if he was 10 inches taller. Does that mean 5'9 Joe Schmo = Shane Battier? No, cause thats ridiculous. Seriously, lets go ahead and say Allen Iverson = Michael Jordan, cause if he can have a career average of 27 ppg, win an MVP, and lead a team to the Finals as a 6'0 weak SG, who knows how much more he could've accomplished at 6'6 and with Jordan's strength and athleticism.

It doesn't matter what makes a player effective, all that matters is how effective they are.

[allball]

So what? I hate it when people use the whole "Shaq could only do that cause of his size" argument. Does it matter? Cause you can seriously use that for almost all NBA players. For example, I can say some 5'9 Joe Schmo who is not in the NBA but has alot of aggresiveness and defensive skill for his size would be just as effective as Shane Battier if he was 10 inches taller. Does that mean 5'9 Joe Schmo = Shane Battier? No, cause thats ridiculous. Seriously, lets go ahead and say Allen Iverson = Michael Jordan, cause if he can have a career average of 27 ppg, win an MVP, and lead a team to the Finals as a 6'0 weak SG, who knows how much more he could've accomplished at 6'6 and with Jordan's size and athleticism.

It doesn't matter what makes a player effective, all that matters is how effective they are.

cool. anyway as I said outside of pure talent, Duncan gets my vote as best player since Jordan.

[DKLaker]

Exactly.

Just because dominant bigs tend to be the most valuable doesn't mean other players can't be better than them.

Again, I primarily see Kobe fans trying to draw all these differentiations between "skill" and "best" and all that kind of thing.

Best should mean the player that gives you the best chance of winning, or in other words contributes the most to a team's success.

There is just no way Bryant has done that more than Shaq or Duncan.

If I follow YOUR logic then it must be Robert Horry "HANDS DOWN" since he has more rings then BOTH of them.

Kobe IS the best player!!!!

[Loki]

Kobe was just as dominant in the 01 and 02 playoffs as Shaq

:oldlol:

[allball]

Exactly.

Just because dominant bigs tend to be the most valuable doesn't mean other players can't be better than them.

Again, I primarily see Kobe fans trying to draw all these differentiations between "skill" and "best" and all that kind of thing.

Best should mean the player that gives you the best chance of winning, or in other words contributes the most to a team's success.

There is just no way Bryant has done that more than Shaq or Duncan.

who was the best player in the league from 85-90?

[TmacsRockets]

If I follow YOUR logic then it must be Robert Horry "HANDS DOWN" since he has more rings then BOTH of them.

Kobe IS the best player!!!!

Now do people see what the hell I am talking about? They use a Robert Horry example whenever rings are brought up when the guy never made an allstar team in his life and was never even a top 50 player in the league.

[Knoe Itawl]

Shaq's effectiveness on the boards and the defensive end were predicated on his size not his defensive skill or his aggressiveness. he simply took up so much area in the lanes and paint.

So what? All that matters is the RESULT.

no doubt having Shaq on your team gets you wins. being the best player doesnt always get you wins if you dont have the right players around you. much easier to build around a great center than any other position.

Again, so what if it's easier to build around a center. You're trying to penalize larger players for being larger players. That's just the way it is. Best = most effective, most impactful player. It doesn't mean best at doing fancy dribbles and "and 1" moves.

and I would say that while Shaq was feared, the better coaches could take away or minimize elements of his game but when you played the Lakers in the early part of this decade from 01 to 04, you feared Kobe down the stretch.

So you're saying Kobe was more feared than Shaq? :oldlol: You're just talking shyt now, aren't you?

no doubt Kobe has had some stinkers but it hasnt been 4 out of 5. I believe Kobe was hurt in 00. he barely played the first two games and missed the third but it was Kobe who saved them in the WCF in 00 when Shaq had lackluster games 6 and 7 and Kobe took over. he had 11 rebounds in game 7 to Shaq's 9 and 4 blocks to Shaq's 1. he was also the catalyst of the 4th quarter run that led to the comeback.

Kobe in the Finals:

***Against Indiana 1999-2000
15.6 PPG and 36% FG (While Shaq avg. 38 PPG, 16.6 RBDS, and 61% FG).

***Against Philly 2000-2001
24.6 PPG and 41.5% FG.

***Against New Jersey 2001-2002
26.8 PPG and 51.4% FG.

***Against Detroit 2003-2004
22.6 PPG and 37% FG.

*****Against Boston 2008
25.6/5.0/4.6 on 39% shooting

he did have bad finals in 04 and 08. he def played well in 01 (had a 48/16 game against SA) and 02 thorughout the whole playoffs including down the stretch of the WCF game 7 against the Kings.

See above. One very good series out of 5. And this is the best player since Jordan? I won't even get into his series vs. Phoenix where he played above average to poor. Never GREAT. He also doesn't have ONE top FIFTY all tiem Finals performance though he's been there 5 times. Boy I get sick of how overrated this guy is. Very good player, but his reputation exceeds his abilities.


Shaq called D-Wade the best player to jab at Kobe and rub it in his face.

Oh, I see. When he said Kobe was, he was being truthful but when he said Wade was, he wasn't. Do you read what you're saying?

I believe youre confusing size,strength agility and physical presence with playing ability

No, all of those things go INTO what makes you a player. Just like Jordan's athleticism, large hands helped make him into the player he was. I don't see people using that against him. Or using Iverson's quickness against him. Also, I don't see other 7'1 350 pound people who have dominated the NBA like Shaq. Why not if that's all it takes to be a top 10 all time player?

[Knoe Itawl]

If I follow YOUR logic then it must be Robert Horry "HANDS DOWN" since he has more rings then BOTH of them.

Kobe IS the best player!!!!

Show me all of Robert Horry's rings as the franchise player on a team, all his MVPs and Finals MVPs and all his all time great playoff runs.

I'll be waiting.

Why are so many Laker/Kobe fans so ignorant/annoying?

[Loki]

threads like this should always come with qualifiers...like a definition of "Best".
"Best" and most "Impactful" MAY be considered two different things.


They're one and the same.

[allball]

[



and I would say that while Shaq was feared, the better coaches could take away or minimize elements of his game but when you played the Lakers in the early part of this decade from 01 to 04, you feared Kobe down the stretch.

So you're saying Kobe was more feared than Shaq? :oldlol: You're just talking shyt now, aren't you?

no doubt Kobe has had some stinkers but it hasnt been 4 out of 5. I believe Kobe was hurt in 00. he barely played the first two games and missed the third but it was Kobe who saved them in the WCF in 00 when Shaq had lackluster games 6 and 7 and Kobe took over. he had 11 rebounds in game 7 to Shaq's 9 and 4 blocks to Shaq's 1. he was also the catalyst of the 4th quarter run that led to the comeback.

Kobe in the Finals:

***Against Indiana 1999-2000
15.6 PPG and 36% FG (While Shaq avg. 38 PPG, 16.6 RBDS, and 61% FG).

***Against Philly 2000-2001
24.6 PPG and 41.5% FG.

***Against New Jersey 2001-2002
26.8 PPG and 51.4% FG.

***Against Detroit 2003-2004
22.6 PPG and 37% FG.

*****Against Boston 2008
25.6/5.0/4.6 on 39% shooting




Kobe was hurt in 00. missed almost all of 3 games in the finals..
in 01 he had 1 game where he was 7 of 22 or .318 from the field. other than that he shot okay.

he was a mess against Detroit but that was mainly because he had to jack a ton of shots because Malone and Payton became useless on offense and there was nothing coming off the bench. Shaq didnt have a great series either. he had one really good game statistically but essentially he was outplayed by Ben and Rasheed Wallace.

as far as this year he just played bad and was outplayed. Boston had more talent but he has no excuse for this one.

[VCMVP1551]

In Indiana Kobe only missed pretty much 2 games. In game 1 he played most of the game and a had a respectable game. Not abig statistical game but he played well. However for most of the series he was poor.

As far as the 2004 series. Shaq wasn't outplayed. He averaged 27 and 11 with 63% shooting but he only got about 16 shots per game. Ben and Sheed had no chance at guarding him.

[Knoe Itawl]

Kobe was hurt in 00. missed almost all of 3 games in the finals..
in 01 he had 1 game where he was 7 of 22 or .318 from the field. other than that he shot okay.

he was a mess against Detroit but that was mainly because he had to jack a ton of shots because Malone and Payton became useless on offense and there was nothing coming off the bench. Shaq didnt have a great series either. he had one really good game statistically but essentially he was outplayed by Ben and Rasheed Wallace.

as far as this year he just played bad and was outplayed. Boston had more talent but he has no excuse for this one.

Uh, Shaq scored like 28 per on 60% shooting in the Pistons series. And Kobe didn't have to jack a ton of shots, he CHOSE to instead of trying to feed his 60% shooting behemoth center as much as possible. At any rate, you can't even begin to compare Kobe's series with Shaq's. Unless you're a fool.

As for Boston, LA was FAVORED before the series. Why are people talking about all of Boston's talent NOW when they weren't before the series? I'll tell you why, because they're full of shyt. I want to see all the posts talking about how great Boston was BEFORE the Finals.

But anyway, those performances don't amount to the "best player since Jordan". Especially considering it was on the NBA's biggest stage. I think several other players could have done better than that. People like you seem to think it's impossible for a player to play great but their team still loses, choosing instead to blame it on other things. Are you sure you're not a Kobe fan, because only Kobe fans argue like that. When Kobe plays poorly they blame it on something else instead of him.

[Loki]

Kobe was hurt in 00. missed almost all of 3 games in the finals..

No, he missed one game which isn't counted in the averages anyway, and played about 9 minutes in another game. If you exclude those two games, he averaged 19.0 pts on 36.8% FG for the series. That's terrible. And Kobe was no more hurt than anyone else at that time of year.



in 01 he had 1 game where he was 7 of 22 or .318 from the field. other than that he shot okay.

he was a mess against Detroit but that was mainly because he had to jack a ton of shots because Malone and Payton became useless on offense and there was nothing coming off the bench. Shaq didnt have a great series either. he had one really good game statistically but essentially he was outplayed by Ben and Rasheed Wallace.


Let the excuses flow! :oldlol: Allball: not a Kobe groupie (his own words), just spouts groupie rhetoric and excuses.

[allball]

Uh, Shaq scored like 28 per on 60% shooting in the Pistons series. And Kobe didn't have to jack a ton of shots, he CHOSE to instead of trying to feed his 60% shooting behemoth center as much as possible. At any rate, you can't even begin to compare Kobe's series with Shaq's. Unless you're a fool.

As for Boston, LA was FAVORED before the series. Why are people talking about all of Boston's talent NOW when they weren't before the series? I'll tell you why, because they're full of shyt. I want to see all the posts talking about how great Boston was BEFORE the Finals.

But anyway, those performances don't amount to the "best player since Jordan". Especially considering it was on the NBA's biggest stage. I think several other players could have done better than that. People like you seem to think it's impossible for a player to play great but their team still loses, choosing instead to blame it on other things. Are you sure you're not a Kobe fan, because only Kobe fans argue like that. When Kobe plays poorly they blame it on something else instead of him.

remember I said Kobe was the most talented and Duncan was the best in terms of accomplishment or winning because he has done it consistently for a decade and is a threat to go every year.

as far as that 04 series now we're talking about scoring over effectiveness. Ben Wallace was more effective for Detroit than Shaq was for LA. you can put up huge numbers and not have a huge impact on a game or series.

Kobe played poorly this year and it is squarely on him. just terrible. also his game 7 against Phoenix in 06 was terrible in terms of his leadership. just like this year in the finals and when he said he wanted to bail LA. those are the reasons I say he is the most talented and not the best. but on those early decade Laker teams Kobe was as feared as Shaq.

[allball]

Let the excuses flow! :oldlol: Allball: not a Kobe groupie (his own words), just spouts groupie rhetoric and excuses.

none here. I rooted against Kobe whenever he played my Kings and against Inidiana and Philly because I liked those teams better. rooted against him when they played the Blazers in 00 and whenever he played against San Antonio numerous times.

in fact I have only rooted for Kobe and the Lakers two series ever and that was against the Nets in 02 and Phoenix in 06. I actually thought they would beat Boston based on the way the Celtics had been playing and the way they handled SA. but I wanted to see KG get a ring.

I dont polarize myself though and say only the players I like are the best.

[Sham]

I'm torn between Shaq and Duncan.

Definitely NOT Kobe, though.

[Heilige]

I actually meant it more like

Shaq/Duncan










KG

The rest


In your opinion, what would Kobe have to accomplish before he could rank ahead of Duncan and Shaq?

[Soundwave]

1. Shaquille O' Neal
2. Tim Duncan
3. Kobe Bryant
4. KG
5. Jason Kidd or Steve Nash

In that order. No way can you put Kobe over Shaq or even Duncan as far as I'm concerned. That's a huge stretch.

[Soundwave]

In your opinion, what would Kobe have to accomplish before he could rank ahead of Duncan and Shaq?

I dunno ... like actually win a title as a no.1 option?

[guy]

1. Shaquille O' Neal
2. Tim Duncan
3. Kobe Bryant
4. KG
5. Jason Kidd or Steve Nash

In that order. No way can you put Kobe over Shaq or even Duncan as far as I'm concerned. That's a huge stretch.

There's also no way you should put Steve Nash in the top 5, and it shouldn't be a question between him and Kidd. He wasn't much until he got to the Suns which was in 2005. I'd put AI, Kidd, Lebron, Dirk and maybe T-Mac ahead of Nash.

[willds09]

I give my upmost respect to shaq and td for having 4 rings a piece, but post jordan era, tha 3 people who came close to him scoring wise, is kobe, a.i, and t-mac (even tho he didn't make tha 2nd round) but look at this, imagine all of this 3 that I jus mention, had a scottie pippen like player with them, and for shaq, kobe was that pippen, and shaq helped dwade, dwade was tha star, so don't act like shaq was tha best, cuz he wasn't...

[Loki]

I give my upmost respect to shaq and td for having 4 rings a piece, but post jordan era, tha 3 people who came close to him scoring wise, is kobe, a.i, and t-mac

Of those 3, only Kobe is close to Jordan in terms of scoring. McGrady had one off the charts year, and AI is horribly inefficient compared to Jordan. And when I say that Kobe's "close," I mean closer than the other two. He's not really that close.


but look at this, imagine all of this 3 that I jus mention, had a scottie pippen like player with them

Yeah man! because they'd all have the same success as Jordan did then, because they're all equal players! :oldlol:

[willds09]

Naw I'm not saying ai, kobe, tmac is like mj, I'm saying they took over tha game after he did, and if them had help like mj did they would be repected more, cuz pippen was that nice, to help him out in tha finals, u think gasol was like pippen, no, and yao was injured before tha playoffs started, and who ever had my boy a.i"s back??? I rest my case...

[Mr. Bryant]

that's his problem,taking tough shot all the time

If the rules were the same as back then and he was playing with two hall of fame teammates, trust me, there would be no need to.

[Loki]

If the rules were the same as back then and he was playing with two hall of fame teammates, trust me, there would be no need to.

:oldlol:

Kobe Bryant: Man of "ifs."

Btw, tell us why Kobe never cracked 47% shooting and still exhibited his penchant for poor shot selection under man-to-man rules from '97-'04 despite having a top 7 player all-time at his absolute peak on his team and hardly ever seeing double teams.

[willds09]

:oldlol:

Kobe Bryant: Man of "ifs."

Btw, tell us why Kobe never cracked 47% shooting and still exhibited his penchant for poor shot selection under man-to-man rules from '97-'04 despite having a top 7 player all-time at his absolute peak on his team and hardly ever seeing double teams.
all i gotta say iz imagine kobe and t-mac on tha same team,it will be a wrap!:rockon:

[vinsane01]

duncan or shaq, nuff said.

[willds09]

duncan or shaq, nuff said.
shaq and duncan own tha paint, are they around players like mj, no, shaq and duncan cant hardly make free throws, u kidding me????? shaq cant shoot no damn three! a jumpshot once in a blue moon back then, duncan made like 3 out 128 threes!!!:lol :applause: :lol

[vinsane01]

shaq and duncan own tha paint, are they around players like mj, no, shaq and duncan cant hardly make free throws, u kidding me????? shaq cant shoot no damn three! a jumpshot once in a blue moon back then, duncan made like 3 out 128 threes!!!:lol :applause: :lol

there is a reason why since 1999 - 2007, this two players was involved in every single championship series..

and if you base your best ever player post jordan on threes and freethrows....good luck to you. :D

[willds09]

there is a reason why since 1999 - 2007, this two players was involved in every single championship series..

and if you base your best ever player post jordan on threes and freethrows....good luck to you. :D
naw i didnt based him on that, i based him on all around player, shoot from anywhere, kobe, ai, and tmac was always all around players and with speed, shaq is slow as hell, td is too DAMN fundamental and boring, and not flashy at all:no:

[vinsane01]

naw i didnt based him on that, i based him on all around player, shoot from anywhere, kobe, ai, and tmac was always all around players and with speed, shaq is slow as hell, td is too DAMN fundamental and boring, and not flashy at all:no:

okay...flashy=GOAT.. im not even gonna try.

[willds09]

okay...flashy=GOAT.. im not even gonna try.
im talking about tha style, yes i give shaq credit thats it, but duncan? aint no damn kid talkin about " i wanna be dunking like duncan" or some theme song, he never wanted to be in tha spotlight, kobe with sprite, a.i who brought reebok back to life, and t-mac with addidas and his magic jerseys sold mad money:violin:

[Diesel J]

naw i didnt based him on that, i based him on all around player, shoot from anywhere, kobe, ai, and tmac was always all around players and with speed, shaq is slow as hell, td is too DAMN fundamental and boring, and not flashy at all:no:


^^:oldlol:

[Mr. Bryant]

:oldlol:

Kobe Bryant: Man of "ifs."

Btw, tell us why Kobe never cracked 47% shooting and still exhibited his penchant for poor shot selection under man-to-man rules from '97-'04 despite having a top 7 player all-time at his absolute peak on his team and hardly ever seeing double teams.

When you have a great center on your team there is no reason to drive to the basket as often as you can always just dump it into him.

Also considering Kobe had not yet fully reached his prime years.

[willds09]

When you have a great center on your team there is no reason to drive to the basket as often as you can always just dump it into him.

Also considering Kobe had not yet fully reached his prime years.
yea thats right, plus kobe helped shaq's fat a** all them years, and dwade too, what happen to shaq's fat a** this year? priceless:pimp: :roll:

[Loki]

When you have a great center on your team there is no reason to drive to the basket as often as you can always just dump it into him.

Also considering Kobe had not yet fully reached his prime years.

:oldlol:

Always excuses. LOL @ "not his prime years yet" -- the last bastion of Kobe apologism when all else fails. :oldlol: You act like I asked why he didn't shoot 52% with Shaq there. All we were asking for was 47%. And he showed the same exact distaste for good shots back then that he does now, so your post is bunk.

[baseketball4life]

Kobe Bryant

[Y2Gezee]

LOL@ Kobe. Its Shaq /discussion.

[willds09]

:oldlol:

Always excuses. LOL @ "not his prime years yet" -- the last bastion of Kobe apologism when all else fails. :oldlol: You act like I asked why he didn't shoot 52% with Shaq there. All we were asking for was 47%. And he showed the same exact distaste for good shots back then that he does now, so your post is bunk.
when kobe and shaq beat pacers, they couldnt stop them, tha sixers had only a.i when kobe and shaq beat him, and tha nets couldnt touch them at all, if u wanna bash kobe all day, especially knowing he got killed by tha celtics, lets talk about when pistons demolished tha lakers in 04, and who did tha lakers had that year? kobe, payton, malone, and who happy meal fat king SHAQ, what more can i say??? :applause: :roll:

[Y2Gezee]

when kobe and shaq beat pacers, they couldnt stop them, tha sixers had only a.i when kobe and shaq beat him, and tha nets couldnt touch them at all, if u wanna bash kobe all day, especially knowing he got killed by tha celtics, lets talk about when pistons demolished tha lakers in 04, and who did tha lakers had that year? kobe, payton, malone, and who happy meal fat king SHAQ, what more can i say??? :applause: :roll:

You could say that Malone didn't play, and you could say the reason they lost that series (at least so easily) is because Kobe was awful and selfish... just trbl. Shaq was something like 28 and 14 or something for that series, maybe better

[willds09]

You could say that Malone didn't play, and you could say the reason they lost that series (at least so easily) is because Kobe was awful and selfish... just trbl. Shaq was something like 28 and 14 or something for that series, maybe better
naw dont blame it on kobe, he was part of the reason they got there,kobe was brilliant that season, but what about 06 finals, who turn them around??? sure wasnt no SHAQ, and back to 02 finals, if anybody thought kobe wasnt sensational, yall must be hidden under a rock:rolleyes:

[gpfanz]

Manu :eek:

[brandonislegend]

Kobe bryant is the best talent wise player.

Shaq is most valuable.

[willds09]

Kobe bryant is the best talent wise player.

Shaq is most valuable. only 3 outta 4 championships

[Y2Gezee]

naw dont blame it on kobe, he was part of the reason they got there,kobe was brilliant that season, but what about 06 finals, who turn them around??? sure wasnt no SHAQ, and back to 02 finals, if anybody thought kobe wasnt sensational, yall must be hidden under a rock:rolleyes:

You must be either high, dumb or kidding or something

[willds09]

You must be either high, dumb or kidding or something
man, youre mad cuz i told tha truth, and thats tha biggest thing u can come up with, u must be high thinking it was all SHAQ..:rolleyes:

[mongePR(kb24)]

shaq, duncan
.
kobe
.
.
.
.
the rest...

[Allstar24]

:oldlol:

Always excuses. LOL @ "not his prime years yet" -- the last bastion of Kobe apologism when all else fails. :oldlol: You act like I asked why he didn't shoot 52% with Shaq there. All we were asking for was 47%. And he showed the same exact distaste for good shots back then that he does now, so your post is bunk.
You're one to judge. Nothing you say has any value.

Mentally unbalanced, biased, Kobe-bashing nutjob of a fan

:roll:

[Lebron23]

Lakers fans


1. They dominate every board discussions
2. Their team won 3 NBA Championship in this decade ( Thanks to Shaq)

[Loki]

You're one to judge. Nothing you say has any value.

Mentally unbalanced, biased, Kobe-bashing nutjob of a fan

:roll:

Wow, such an original comment. How long did it take you to come up with that? And look -- a Laker avatar, too! What a coincidence.

[josh_3089406]

Based on achievements and championships
So based on achievements and championships, Robert Horry has 5 titles since Jordan left and made numerous amounts of clutch shots! Horry is great don't get me wrong, but according to the criteria players have to meet to be one of the best players since MJ, looks as though Horry gets ahead of the likes of Kidd, McGrady etc....? Kobe Bryant is probably the closest thing we'll get to the athletisism and overall brilliance to Mr Jordan.

1. Kobe Bryant
2. It doesn't matter after that, there can only be one, besides if I was an NBA player I'd rather be known as "One of the Greatest Players" than "The Second best Player since the Jordan era!!

[Allstar24]

Wow, such an original comment. How long did it take ou to come up with that? And look -- a Laker avatar, too! What a coincidence.
Wow, so you are capable of making a post without mentioning a certain somebody's name. I'm shocked to say the least.

[iggy>]

naw i didnt based him on that, i based him on all around player, shoot from anywhere, kobe, ai, and tmac was always all around players and with speed, shaq is slow as hell, td is too DAMN fundamental and boring, and not flashy at all:no:
wow, the stupidity. so according to u no big man should be in the discussion of the greatest players ever?

[Lebron23]

Big Men won more NBA Championship than elite Shooting Guards.

[shaoyut]

shaq duncan then kobe

[Mr. Bryant]

Big Men won more NBA Championship than elite Shooting Guards.

I wonder why. :confusedshrug:

[ballinforkeeps]

the most talented player is kobe

most proven is shaq and duncan.

kg, tmac, and bron can be up there. kg finally got his ring, bron needs a better supporting cast, tmac and the rox need to stay healthy.

i put bron in there cuz he gotta lotta years before he retires.

im terrible at making 1, 2 ,3 ranked lists but i know whos the best, and those are the most talented players in the league today. i wouldnt be shocked if baron has a career season w/ the clippers, he is most complete pg in the league, but the teams hes been on are the weakest compared to the other guys i mentioned. havin kaman in the paint should help baron out a lot. dont sleep on him

[72-10]

Of those 3, only Kobe is close to Jordan in terms of scoring. McGrady had one off the charts year, and AI is horribly inefficient compared to Jordan. And when I say that Kobe's "close," I mean closer than the other two. He's not really that close.

Yeah, Kobe isn't much more efficient than AI.

[72-10]

Big Men won more NBA Championship than elite Shooting Guards.

Ammendment: About 15 big men to 1 elite shooting guard (Jordan).

[72-10]

the most talented player is kobe

most proven is shaq and duncan.

Basketball is about winning, not talent. Of course winning should follow talent anyways. Ergo the best players since Jordan are Shaq and Duncan.

[Heilige]

Basketball is about winning, not talent. Of course winning should follow talent anyways. Ergo the best players since Jordan are Shaq and Duncan.


What would Kobe have to accomplish in your opinion for him to rank ahead of Shaq and Duncan?

[TmacsRockets]

Ammendment: About 15 big men to 1 elite shooting guard (Jordan).

And Wade

[Sir Charles]

Shaq ofcourse...

1-Shaq
2-Tim Duncan
3-Kevin Garnett
4-Kobe Bryant

5-Lebron
6-Wade
7-Dirk....

[Cangri]

Shaq ofcourse...

1-Shaq
2-Tim Duncan
3-Kevin Garnett
4-Kobe Bryant

5-Lebron
6-Wade
7-Dirk....
I'd put Kobe ahead of Garnett, but it's a pretty accurate list.

[Sir Charles]

I'd put Kobe ahead of Garnett, but it's a pretty accurate list.

Garnett in his Prime was the Best All Around PF Ever. Garnett Ranks among the Top in EFF and PER...get real...Garnett`s impact is not just points but rebounds, assits, blocks and steals.

Garnett`s Prime > Bryant`s actual Prime

[Sir Charles]

Much contradiction? You can't be taken seriously with posts like these. Especially the Bryant with the question mark. LMAO.

I was thinking following up when Jordan left but from when Jordan left till now 2009 then its what i put next...:rolleyes: :hammerhead:

[drza44]

Garnett in his Prime was the Best All Around PF Ever. Garnett Ranks among the Top in EFF and PER...get real...Garnett`s impact is not just points but rebounds, assits, blocks and steals.

Garnett`s Prime > Bryant`s actual Prime

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Is this really Sir Charles? Did someone hack your account?

[smith]

One of the big men of the league. Shaq or Tim. Kobe is a great player(I personally despise him), he has many years ahead him, probably a championship or two(I really hope not) but I doubt that he'll ever climb over the wall of Shaq. That's Dominance with a capital D.

[Jacks3]

1.Shaq
2.Duncan
3.Kobe

[Duncan21formvp]

1.Shaq
2.Duncan
3.Kobe

1. Duncan
2. Shaq
3. Garnett/Kobe

[mrpuente]

It's definitely between Shaq and Duncan, but I would have to go with my man Timmy.

Two things that you should look at when comparing the both of them winning percentage and defense. Timmy wins in both catagories. And when it comes to defense, its not even close. If Duncan is selected for the All-Defensive team this year, first or second team, he'll have more selections than anyone in the history of the NBA. (He's currently tied for first with Kareem and Bobby Jones.)

If "defense wins championships," shouldn't the fact that you're one of the greatest defenders of all time count for a whole lot in these debates? And if winning is the goal, shouldn't the fact that your team wins more often than any other team in any of the four "major" sports count for a lot as well?

[pohzoko]

Kobe or Duncan most def.

[Richie2k6]

Shaq
Duncan
Bryant
Garnett
Iverson
Kidd

The rest

[willds09]

Kobe hands down.

[Sir Charles]

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Is this really Sir Charles? Did someone hack your account?


Did I Say Something Wrong? :no: Garnett is clearly the Best All Around PF Ever...that does not make his impact stronger than Malone`s, Duncan`s (really a center though) or Sir Charles. By the way Sir Charles goes beyond the PF position he was like a Bird, a Magic a Hakeem capable of doing too many things outside his position. :confusedshrug:

[Stringer Bell]

1. Duncan
2. Shaq
3. Kobe

1 and 2 are interchangable

[t-rex]

My vote goes for Tim Duncan.

[Jasper]

Duncan had very good players around him through the 4 championships , but is really only recently that esculades have occurred for Ginubli & Parker.

While Kobe admirers constantly claim Kobe's greatness I will use that cred and say Shaq had a Batman Robin combo to get those 3 titles in LA.

Duncan then gets all the prop's as best player since MJ.

(Remember Shaq stood basically alone in Orlando (with Penny)) zero titles
(Remember Kobe stood basically alone in LA (with Odem/gasol etc)) zero titles

**Shaq garnered a title with D-Wade , but that championship was D-Wade & Shaq as Robin.

[211269]

I dont know how anyone can call Shaq the best "player'. Most dominant, yes but please. The guy is bigger than any other NBA player and 99.9% of his shots are dunks or within 5 feet of the basket. Thats not skill, thats just a result of being bigger than everyone else. Tim Duncan is similar although he can shoot from much further out.

Kobe can do anything on the court. Run a fast break, hit the 3, post up, dunk, defend...Cant think of anything he cant do and has much more to his game than Shaq and even Duncan. I say Kobe easily.

[AirJordan23]

Duncan had very good players around him through the 4 championships , but is really only recently that esculades have occurred for Ginubli & Parker.


Sure, he did in 99, 05 and 07. But, not at all in 2003. That squad wasn't talented at all. Manu and Parker were not even a shell of what they are right now. Robinson was already done, last year in the league putting up 9/8. Stephon Jackson a proven chucker and some key role players like Bowen, Kerr and Smith. Not a very talented squad. Timmy D was the main reason why they got the championship. He anchored that defense really well, drew so much attention, made his team better and dominated in the playoffs. His game 6 performance in the 03 Finals is one of the GOATs. Truly deserved MVP that year. While winning 60 games, you can say that squad overachieved.

[AirJordan23]

I dont know how anyone can call Shaq the best "player'. Most dominant, yes but please. The guy is bigger than any other NBA player and 99.9% of his shots are dunks or within 5 feet of the basket. Thats not skill, thats just a result of being bigger than everyone else. Tim Duncan is similar although he can shoot from much further out.

Kobe can do anything on the court. Run a fast break, hit the 3, post up, dunk, defend...Cant think of anything he cant do and has much more to his game than Shaq and even Duncan. I say Kobe easily.
Who cares if he's bigger than any other player out there? We shouldn't penalize him for that. What matters is his impact on the court not his skill. And his impact on the court >> Duncan's and Kobe's impact on the court.

[willds09]

Best player since mj is kobe bean bryant.

[Maniak]

Duncan

[mrpuente]

I dont know how anyone can call Shaq the best "player'. Most dominant, yes but please. The guy is bigger than any other NBA player and 99.9% of his shots are dunks or within 5 feet of the basket. Thats not skill, thats just a result of being bigger than everyone else. Tim Duncan is similar although he can shoot from much further out.

Kobe can do anything on the court. Run a fast break, hit the 3, post up, dunk, defend...Cant think of anything he cant do and has much more to his game than Shaq and even Duncan. I say Kobe easily.
Except lead a team to a championship as the number on man on his team.

[spursdynasty420]

Im gonna have to go with duncan on this one

[quasimoto]

Shaq
Duncan

...

[crisoner]

I have to say Shaq. I have not witness anyone as dominant as Shaq was for that three year span between 2000 and 2002. He should of been MVP every year back then.

[Lebron23]

1. Shaquille O'Neal
2. Tim Duncan

3. Kobe/Garnett
4. Allen Iverson/Dirk Nowitzki
5. Steve Nash

[mrpuente]

I have to say Shaq. I have not witness anyone as dominant as Shaq was for that three year span between 2000 and 2002. He should of been MVP every year back then.
Although I do see what youre saying the discussion isnt about who had the better peak its about who was the better player. Duncan has been far more consistent. Duncan in the finals is 4 for 4 only person better is Jordan who is 6 for 6. While Shaq is 4 for 6 and Kobe is 3 for 4.

[211269]

Except lead a team to a championship as the number on man on his team.

Thats because he hasnt had the team around him he did in 00-02 genius but dont worry, you will be able to add that to the list in about 4 months :D

[catzhernandez]

Shaq. Easy.

[mrpuente]

Thats because he hasnt had the team around him he did in 00-02 genius but dont worry, you will be able to add that to the list in about 4 months :D
Genius, yeh thats about right.

Look at it this way out of the 3 players that most people are voting for two of them played on the same team. And yet neither one has accomplished what Tim has.

2 superstars > 1 superstar......got damn im smart

[JustinJDW]

It is between Shaq and Duncan, period. There is a reason why every single NBA Finals from 1999 - 2007 featured one of the two. Anyone that says Kobe is the best is pretty much stupid. Kobe won three as the #2 Man and #2 Man only. Kobe has never won a Championship as the Leader and until he does, he should never be considered over players that have won multiple Championships as the best on their Teams. Like Shaq and Duncan.

Like I said, it is between Shaq and Duncan, but I am going to have to go with Duncan. Both players have accomplished the same things, so why did I pick Duncan? Simple, because Duncan accomplished these things with less quality players.

Think about it, there is no point in arguing who accomplished more, because they are basically inch to inch, so you have to think about how they did it, and who they did it with.

Who did Shaq play with when he won his Championships? Kobe Bryant. During their 3 Championship Seasons, Kobe was averaging 22.5 PPG, 28.5 PPG, and 25.2 PPG and in the Playoffs, averaging 29.4 PPG Who did Shaq win his Fourth Title in Miami with? Dwayne Wade, and in the Season of his Championship, he was averaging 27.2 PPG and in the Playoffs averaging 28.4 PPG.

Are you hearing this? These numbers are amazing. Tim Duncan has never, NEVER, played with anyone like this and Duncan has always been the #1 Man on his team. While playing with Duncan, David Robinson peaked 20 PPG game for one Season in his Career and Tony Parker Just peaked 20PPG game this year. As for Manu, he never once in his career averaged more than 20PPG. He only peaked 20PPG once during the Playoffs, which they did not win that year.

Do you see where I am getting at here. Duncan accomplished just as much as Shaq and won Championships with guys who barely peaked 20PPG, while Shaq was playing with guys who were damn near averaging 30PPG. Not to mention that Tim Duncan is undefeated in the Finals. That's right, perfection in the Finals and he was the #1 Man in all of them, including the 2007 Championship, even though Parker won Finals MVP that year. Shaq was #2 in his Miami Championship. I am also leaving out that Shaq should have never won that Third Championship with LA, because of the Kings - Lakers Rigged Game, and we all know about that. Don't act like that does not matter.

So that is why I pick Tim Duncan over Shaq as the Best Player since Jordan. Because he accomplished the same, with less. I tried my best to give out my reasons, so hopefully I won't get too much hate.

[ruslan]

Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
AI
Garnett

why the hell is steve nash on the list

[ruslan]

how the hell are people putting duncan over shaq when they have the same amoung of title and finals mvps(4,3) but shaqs stats are better than Duncans??? and he's been to more finals, I don't get it :confusedshrug:

[TheWitness]

in Chronological order...

Shaq
Garnett
Duncan
Kobe
Lebron...

[211269]

Genius, yeh thats about right.

Look at it this way out of the 3 players that most people are voting for two of them played on the same team. And yet neither one has accomplished what Tim has.

2 superstars > 1 superstar......got damn im smart

yea, Tony Parker and Manu Ginobli are scrubs alright :rolleyes: What happened to Duncan last year in the playoffs against the Lakers when Manu was injured? Oh yea, they got their asses handed to them 4-1. You act like Duncan won it on his own, watch some basketball once in awhile.

[mrpuente]

yea, Tony Parker and Manu Ginobli are scrubs alright :rolleyes: What happened to Duncan last year in the playoffs against the Lakers when Manu was injured? Oh yea, they got their asses handed to them 4-1. You act like Duncan won it on his own, watch some basketball once in awhile.
:oldlol: watch some basketball, stock troll comeback.

The 03 season yeh Duncan did win it on his own. With an old Drob, Tony and Manu were rookies, and the only player worth mentioning is SJax.:oldlol:

Tony and Manu are allstar caliber guards, but they are not SUPERSTARS like Kobe or Dwade. (hell even Penny even though they didnt win because they got swept in the finals by the GOAT)

And to everyone that is saying the stats are the same are retarded.
Tim Duncan has been selected into the NBA All time team for every year hes been in the league. Shaq about half. And Duncan has also been selected for all Defensive team every year also, and is tied for most.

Tim Duncan has been CONSISTENTLY GREATER!

[211269]

:oldlol: watch some basketball, stock troll comeback.

The 03 season yeh Duncan did win it on his own. With an old Drob, Tony and Manu were rookies, and the only player worth mentioning is SJax.:oldlol:

Tony and Manu are allstar caliber guards, but they are not SUPERSTARS like Kobe or Dwade. (hell even Penny even though they didnt win because they got swept in the finals by the GOAT)

And to everyone that is saying the stats are the same are retarded.
Tim Duncan has been selected into the NBA All time team for every year hes been in the league. Shaq about half. And Duncan has also been selected for all Defensive team every year also, and is tied for most.

Tim Duncan has been CONSISTENTLY GREATER!


:roll:

Wow, you may be worse than LeBron fanboys. You really dont understand your own team with ridiculous posts like that do you?

Defense was what won the Spurs those titles more than anything, especially that year and you dont need to have superstars to play team defense. That team was LOADED with talent, even off the bench. You had Duncan and Robinson's size inside, Parker averaged 15+ PPG that year, Ginobli was pretty good, Stephen Jackson, Bruce Bowen, Steve Kerr, Danny Ferry...

[mrpuente]

:roll:

Wow, you may be worse than LeBron fanboys. You really dont understand your own team with ridiculous posts like that do you?

Defense was what won the Spurs those titles more than anything, especially that year and you dont need to have superstars to play team defense. That team was LOADED with talent, even off the bench. You had Duncan and Robinson's size inside, Parker averaged 15+ PPG that year, Ginobli was pretty good, Stephen Jackson, Bruce Bowen, Steve Kerr, Danny Ferry...

Youre an idiot if you think the 03 team had allstar talent. Nothing more than role players. Tony Parker needed Speedy Claxton to bail him out. Sjax, Bowen, Kerr, and Ferry? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

I cant argue with bandwagoners.

[Myth]

Shaq
TD

Kobe

Based on achievements and championships

Not that I necessarily disagree with your list, but if you are going "based on achievements and championships" then I think Duncan has Shaq beat. Duncan has 1 more MVP, 1 more All-NBA 1st team selection, 1 more All-NBA 2nd team selection, 8 more All-Defensive first teams (to Shaq's 0) (Shaq has 1 more 2nd team defense, but that is because Duncan was too busy getting 1st team selections).

[drza44]

The supporting cast of the '03 Spurs has gotten laughably under-rated over time. Yes, Robinson was old. He was also still a top-5 defensive big man in the NBA. Combine him with Duncan and the paint is locked down, especially important against the Lakers. Young Ginobili, young Jackson, and vet Bowen was a very solid blend of timely offense and aggressive defense on the wings. And young Parker/vet Claxton was another blend of youth/offensive talent and veteran expertise when a steadier hand was needed.

While it is true that the supporting cast wasn't near their peak (either too old or too young), there was plenty of talent and the old/young blend worked to hide the weaknesses of either. That team doesn't win a title without a legitimate superstar like Duncan to lead them, but this wasn't even close to a solo mission. That supporting cast was legit.

[big baller]

/agree, but id throw KG in there for sheer "shoulder load"-ness


LMAO, hell no

[JonnyBigBoss]

Kobe for sure as far as an all around basketball player goes. Duncan and Shaq are definitely amazing players but have great weaknesses that don't make them Jordanesque.

[Carbine]

The supporting cast of the '03 Spurs has gotten laughably under-rated over time. Yes, Robinson was old. He was also still a top-5 defensive big man in the NBA. Combine him with Duncan and the paint is locked down, especially important against the Lakers. Young Ginobili, young Jackson, and vet Bowen was a very solid blend of timely offense and aggressive defense on the wings. And young Parker/vet Claxton was another blend of youth/offensive talent and veteran expertise when a steadier hand was needed.

While it is true that the supporting cast wasn't near their peak (either too old or too young), there was plenty of talent and the old/young blend worked to hide the weaknesses of either. That team doesn't win a title without a legitimate superstar like Duncan to lead them, but this wasn't even close to a solo mission. That supporting cast was legit.

You don't win a championship without some type of talent surrounding your best player. But if you compare that teams talent to past champions and their supporting casts, it's almost impossible to say that the 2003 Spurs had legit talent.

There were numerous other stars who had better supporting casts in 2003 that didn't win the title. ****, there have been MANY superstars with clear cut more talent than the 2003 Spurs that did not even make the finals, let alone win the championship.

[drza44]

You don't win a championship without some type of talent surrounding your best player. But if you compare that teams talent to past champions and their supporting casts, it's almost impossible to say that the 2003 Spurs had legit talent.

There were numerous other stars who had better supporting casts in 2003 that didn't win the title. ****, there have been MANY superstars with clear cut more talent than the 2003 Spurs that did not even make the finals, let alone win the championship.

Without a lot of in depth analysis I'd say that in the last 20 years, the non-best-player-talent of the '03 Spurs compares favorably with the mid-90s Rockets and the '06 Heat among teams that have won titles. That puts the Spurs among the lesser pure-talented champs of recent years, but not as some big outlier.

As for the "MANY superstars with clear cut more talent", I guess it depends how you define superstar. In this generation, the only "superstars" I'd put in the same breath as Duncan are Shaq, KG, and Kobe (with LeBron from the next generation soon to join them). Shaq has almost always had as much or more talent than those '03 Spurs, but his teams have also generally been contenders. As for KG and Kobe, since coming into their primes I don't think either of them have ever had as much surrounding talent as the '03 Spurs and NOT been contenders. (That came out awkward, let me try again. Anytime either Kobe or KG have had as much surrounding talent as those '03 Spurs since they hit their peak, they've also fielded title contenders). And LeBron has already shown that he can make teams of similar supporting talent into contenders, and he's still a youngster in the game. And I've already pointed out what Wade did in '06, and I don't even consider him a "superstar" on Duncan's level yet.

And really, once you get past a certain talent threshold winning in the playoffs is as much about matchups, playing style and luck as it is about position-to-position comparisons. The cast of the '03 Spurs meshed very well with a generation-level superstar in Duncan, allowing them to be a very formidable team. And I have no problem at all with Duncan getting big props for taking that team to a title, as he was amazing that year...a generation-level talent at his absolute peak. It's just that the '03 Spurs are becoming like a fishing tall tale...just like the fish gets bigger with every telling, the Spurs cast seems to get worse every year. In '03, that Spurs team was considered formidable...at the rate it's going, by '13 people will be saying that Duncan was playing with 11 high schoolers that he picked at random from the crowd each game!

[Duncan21formvp]

Kobe for sure as far as an all around basketball player goes. Duncan and Shaq are definitely amazing players but have great weaknesses that don't make them Jordanesque.

Kobe never even won as the man and has 0 finals mvp's. You gotta put your talent together with individual success where you win as the man.