Warriors fire Mike Montgomery, reportedly hiring Don Nelson

[ZHAKIDD532]

http://www.insidehoops.com/nba_rumors.shtml very top

[Kobe24]

Good pickup by the warriors.

[The Mamba]

Heard it on ESPN radio before you made the thread. RUN TMC!!! of course, without TMC. Maybe he can get B Diddy, J. Rich, Dunleavy, and all of them clicking. Scary.

[saKf]

Best thing Mullin's done in awhile.

Nelson's great with teams that have a lot of different talents. This should be really interesting.

[dak121]

WOW

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2565022

[chains5000]

The warriors needed to get rid of Montgomery, so this is nt a shocking decision. Now they only got to trade Baron Davis and everything will be fine.

[Ricardo Tubbs]

I'm calling it right now: the Warriors will be the worst defensive team in the NBA next season.

[JordanPippenRodman]

Stellar signing. :applause:

It's about time Oaktown got some basketball to cheer about.

[DoubleTech]

i'm not shocked at all that nelson is back in coaching... but i am suprised it's with the warriors.

warriors need to move baron, dunleavy, murphy and foyle for expirers and picks and focus on the youth they have down there...
ellis, diogu, pietrus are all young studs and need to be given playing time.

[kwajo]

i think this almost gives the Warriors the opportunity to be a 45 win team. They have talent, and though Nelson's coaching will never get them deep in the playoffs, it might actually get them there though, which for Golden State is a rare accomplishment.

*crosses fingers he'll give a major role to Pietrus*

[miles berg]

You can forget about the Warriors moving Baron Davis, Don Nelson is about to show BDiddy how to tap his talent level. Baron will be a STUD next year, book that.

This is a great hire by Mullin, Nelson will have the Warriors as an elite team within 3 years. I am just very interested to see who joins Baron and JRich as the 3rd of the Big 3. Nelson loves to have three guys that are all star level; TMC, Dirk/Nash/Fin, I wonder if it will be Pietrus, Dunleavy, Diogu, or Biedrins.

Great time for Warrior fans.

[geeWiz15]

This is a great, great thing for the Warriors.


I'm calling it right now: the Warriors will be the worst defensive team in the NBA next season.
That's a thing, they were putrid defensively last year too, but they also sucked on offense and had no chemistry. They've just solved that problem. If they can get all that offensive talent clicking... wow.

They still won't win a title or anything but at least they could make some noise and/or the playoffs.

[kwajo]

^yup. If Baron can stay healthy, expect a huge season from him

[dak121]

With Nelson coaching I think they have a good shot at challenging Phoenix for top scoring team in the league.

A lineup of:

PG - Davis
SG - Richardson
SF - Dunleavy Jr.
PF - Murphy
C - Biedrins

with Diogu, Monta Ellis, Pietrus, Cabarkapa and possibly Chris Taft coming off the bench can run and gun with the best of them.

Defensively they'll most likely be worst in the league but they're going to outscore teams more often than not. This squad can make the playoffs now. Nelson is the perfect coach for them.

[fatboy11]

I love how everyone is ready to hand the playoffs over them AGAIN this year.

They still play in the WC and they're still at the bottom of their division.

[GOBB]

I love how everyone is ready to hand the playoffs over them AGAIN this year.

They still play in the WC and they're still at the bottom of their division.

Thats what 3-4yrs in a row now? :roll:

[kwajo]

well assuming they don't implode and Nelson can make it work, they have more talent than the Lakers or T-Wolves for example, so they have a shot. I predict 42 wins and a 9th seed

[fatboy11]

They still have Baron Davis. Don't expect that offense to click too well.

I mean, I think EVERYONE'S chance hinge on not imploding and the coach making things work.

[DoubleTech]

I love how everyone is ready to hand the playoffs over them AGAIN this year.

They still play in the WC and they're still at the bottom of their division.


truth. i don't think the addition of nelson will bring them to the playoffs.

i mean... baron might be very talented, but he's just a west coast version of stephon marbury imo... AND he's injury prone. and PG's who consistently chuck and ruin the development of the youth around them don't do as well as people believe they will.

[GoRapz]

Warriors are making the playoffs. The got all the talent they need. The only problem was their coaching. Now they're getting a very, very good coach that knows how to work a team.

[Twiens]

:roll: Every freaking year.

[fatboy11]

Warriors are making the playoffs. The got all the talent they need. The only problem was their coaching. Now they're getting a very, very good coach that knows how to work a team.You obviously haven't watched them the past two seasons.

Talented offensively, yes. Defense, on the other hand......ouch. Comparisons to the Suns are laughable considering that the Warriors aren't anywhere near as talented or cohesive as the Suns.

A more proper comparison would be a West Coast verison of the Toronto Raptors.

[Kobe24]

well assuming they don't implode and Nelson can make it work, they have more talent than the Lakers or T-Wolves for example, so they have a shot. I predict 42 wins and a 9th seed

More talent than the Lakers? Don`t go that far. Are you taking account that B-davis is always injured? Kobe`s ppg can fill up 3 of their starters ppg.

[Lakers]

well assuming they don't implode and Nelson can make it work, they have more talent than the Lakers or T-Wolves for example, so they have a shot. I predict 42 wins and a 9th seed

And the Knicks have more "talent" than all three. What are you predicting for them big guy? 50 wins? :rolleyes:

[XxNeXuSxX]

And the Knicks have more "talent" than all three. What are you predicting for them big guy? 50 wins? :rolleyes:
:banghead: What do the Knicks have to do with this? Have you missed the last 10 years of Don Nelson's coaching career? He is incredible with utilizing talent on a team. He is the coach that can get any team with decent talent to get clicking on offense and playing together. Idiotic to compare him to Isiah.

[DoubleTech]

A more proper comparison would be a West Coast verison of the Toronto Raptors.

i agree, but only if we're talking of raptor teams of recent years and not this season. look for the raps team D to be much improved this year (wouldn't take much) and for us to be a very cohesive unit as well.

[DoubleTech]

More talent than the Lakers? Don`t go that far. Are you taking account that B-davis is always injured? Kobe`s ppg can fill up 3 of their starters ppg.

what do baron's injuries have to do with his undeniable talent? and i'm sure if i picked the worst three starters on any team i could come up with a handful of players who outscore all three of them combined.

:wtf:

[kwajo]

And the Knicks have more "talent" than all three. What are you predicting for them big guy? 50 wins? :rolleyes: I was using Western Conference teams - ie. those that the Warriors will have to beat out for a playoff spot. The Knicks were not relevant to the discussion.

And i don't see how the Lakers are more talented than the Warriors, I thought Kobe lovers were convinced their team is crap except Kobe, that's why he was supposedly an MVP candidate last year...

[Kobe24]

Baron`s injuries hide his talent. We expect him NOT to play almost every game.

[Kobe24]

I was using Western Conference teams - ie. those that the Warriors will have to beat out for a playoff spot. The Knicks were not relevant to the discussion.

And i don't see how the Lakers are more talented than the Warriors, I thought Kobe lovers were convinced their team is crap except Kobe, that's why he was supposedly an MVP candidate last year...

Kobe lovers? I`m not one of those guys who said the Lakers are crap. I said their players are inconsistent. Don`t generalize all of kobe`s fans.

[9spurs]

It's about time, they had to dump that coach.

[kwajo]

sorry, it's hard to keep track of all the user names that have those four letters in them, it seems like there are dozens and they easily get mixed up

[Joey Zaza]

1) They should have never fired Musselman

2) Montgomery deserved some kind of chance

3) Don Nelson is a terriffic coach. If Mike D. ever had the chance to be a good-NBA player its now. Forwards with diverse skills thrive under Nelson. That's what we heard Mike D. is - so he should be thrive - assuming he really has diverse skills.

4) Foyle hitting a 3 under Nelson will be a highlight of the NBA season.

[Ricardo Tubbs]

Wow you people overrate Don Nelson. Not since the Bucks has any one of his teams actually overachieved.

What Mullin should have done is quit and hire Nelson as the GM.

[Joey Zaza]

I remember when Don Nelson took over as head coach for the Knicks.

It was a mountain of contraversy. Nelson followed Riley. Riley's system was traditional, effective, and very simple - pg handles, sg shoots, sf is versatile, pf rebounds, center stays on the block and everybody defends their opposing number, directs the opponent to the middle where help is waiting.

Nelson came in and immeidately turned things around. Everyone handles, everyone shoots, everyone is on the blocks, cross-match on defense.

Ewing critics will say it failed because Nelson wanted to make the versatile Mason the "centerpiece" of the team but Ewing still wanted his shots. so following a bad streak caused by these growing pains, Ewing turned the whole team against Nelson and brought in the more traditional Van Gundy.

Nelson critics will say that it failed because Nelson had Ewing shooting 3's, while Starks was trying to manuever inside. It failed because Ewing was not under the basket on defense, so teams were just doing layup drills against the Knicks.

It really goes to intent. Did it fail because Ewing and crew refused to change? Or did it fail because Nelson did not coach his personnel, and they were just not capable of change?

Personally, I don't like any plan that takes my best shot blocker and inside scorer out from the paint - so I side with Ewing and co. Meanwhile, did it really fail? They went 35 and 22 over 57 games before he was fired. Thats on pace for a 50 win season. Knicks would give their right nut for that.

[wang4three]

baron's back already is broken.

[DCL]

i've been kicking sand in the warrirors' faces for years. but i think they will finally be good again. nelson's specialty is that he isn't a one-philosophy coach. he's not stubborn like most old school guys who enforce every guy to play the same way. nelson actually allows a lot of flexibility so he really knows how to utilize talent. instead of converting players into something they're not, he does the opposite and tries to maximize their talents in what they're good at. this won't win championships, but it's certainly good enough to be competitive and make the playoffs. with nelson on board, guys like baron davis will have a career again.

[Joey Zaza]

nelson's specialty is that he isn't a one-philosophy coach. he's not stubborn like most old school guys who enforce every guy to play the same way. nelson actually allows a lot of flexibility so he really knows how to utilize talent. instead of converting players into something they're not, he does the opposite and tries to maximize their talents in what they're good at.

I disagree. Nelson is as rigid a coach as there is in the league. He isn't a task-master and his approach is more laid back, but he coaches one system. He likes a motion offense, where everyone gets touches all over the floor. He expects versatility in all his players. He is inflexible on that.

He does not maximize player's talents, though he tires ot maximize the number of skills each player has.

He will be good for the Warriors, but not for the reasons you cite.

[DCL]

nelson plays the system that works best with the pieces that he has. motion offense just happens to be something that works with his players. if he has small guys, he'll play small ball and run tmc. if he has a manute, he'll position him into the game and might even let him shoot 3's. nelson will experiment and try things and is open to creativity. he's one of the least inflexible coaches in the league if you compare him to the hot heads like larry brown. he's far from rigid.

[Joey Zaza]

nelson plays the system that works best with the pieces that he has. if he has small guys, he'll play small ball and rum tmc. if he has a manute, he'll position him into the game. he's one of the lease inflexible coaches in the league if you compare him to the hot heads like larry brown.

I disagree. I'm not sure which Don Nelson team you've watched, but its not accidental that all Nelson teams play the same way. Him and Brown are about the same. They have a way they like their temas to play and coach it. In fact, Brown is slightly more flexible - the 76ers, didn't play much like Pistons, who didn't really play like the Pacers.

[DCL]

I'm not sure which Don Nelson team you've watched, but its not accidental that all Nelson teams play the same way.

if not motion offense, how else would you had coached the warriors or the mavs? ? that's the logical and ideal strategy with those pieces that those teams had. he's given his players a lot of freedom. and he wasn't stubborn. he didn't try to force someone to become a defensive specialist or stopper if he was a just a 3 point shooter. he just let them run and play.

[Joey Zaza]

Lets take a look at Nelson coaching history to see how he changes things up based on his talent and flexibility - as DCL keeps saying (from Wilkepedia)

Nelson took over the reins of General Manager and Coach of the Milwaukee Bucks in 1976 and began to show what would later become his signature style of wheeling and dealing players...It is also in Milwaukee where Nelson became known for his unorthodox, arguably, innovative basketball philosophy. He was known to have introduced the concept of the point forward - a tactic wherein small forwards are used to direct the offense. In Nelson's tenure with the Bucks, he used 6-5 small forward Paul Pressey for the role. This enabled Nelson to field shooting guards Sidney Moncrief and Craig Hodges or Ricky Pierce at the same time without worrying about who would run the offense.

Zaza note - ok, so he has a point forward so he can run the forward with 2 shooters to create mismatches

Nelson then became Coach and Vice President of the Golden State Warriors. In Golden State, he instilled a run and gun style of offense. Again using an unconventional lineup which featured three guards (Mitch Richmond, Tim Hardaway and Sarunas Marciulionis) and two forwards (Chris Mullin and the 6-8 Rod Higgins at center)

Zaza note - ok, so he has a point guard that hruns with 2 shooters to create mismatches. wow, Nelson keeps making these adjustments ot his talent everywhere he goes

In 1995, Nelson would begin his stint with the Knicks, which lasted from that July until March of 1996. Nelson had many personal problems with the players, though, and led them to a lackluster 34-25 start. He also favored a more up-tempo style of offense, sharply contrasting with the Knicks hard-nosed defensive style of play.

Zaza note - they don't get into his lineups, but I'll tell you he tried ot make Mason a point forward and run him with - guess what - 2 shooters. and good job adjusting to talent by taking a talented half-court team and turning them into a poor up-tempo team. Nelson keeps making these adjustments ot his talent everywhere he goes

Nelson was named Head Coach and General Manager of the Dallas Mavericks in 1997, and led them to four consecutive 50 win seasons. The trio of Steve Nash, Michael Finley, and Dirk Nowitzki became the foundation for the dramatic turnaround. In Dallas, Nelson created an offensive powerhouse in which every player could score at any time.

Zaza note - up-tempo offense - check - multiple shooters - check - everyone asked to do everything - check.

By my count, on 4 teams, Nelson has tried to run the same exact offense - that's right - 4 times. But he's not rigid.

[Joey Zaza]

if not motion offense, how else would you had coached the warriors or the mavs? ? that's the logical and ideal strategy with those pieces that those teams had. he's given his players a lot of freedom. and he wasn't stubborn. he didn't try to force someone to become a defensive specialist or stopper if he was a just a 3 point shooter. he just let them run and play.

Well, he's also always the GM and Coach so he brings in the guys who will fit into his system.

He gives his players alot of freedom to play his way.

[DCL]

first of all, i'm not sure if it's even worthwhile to respond to someone who needs wikipedia to talk about basketball.

the bucks were ahead of my time, but the offense he ran with the warriors made sense. he cancelled the bigs, practically eliminated a bit inside game unless you consider tyrone hill to bring run tmc to the table. at new york, he just didn't get along with his players. in dallas, you make it sound like it's nelson's fault that he had a very talented team that mark cuban paid for. like i said, how else would you had coached that team? look at the pieces. motion offense was logical. an nba coach letting his players focus on scoring and not play much defense is far from rigid. he lets the players maximize their talents and play the way that they're good at. i think maybe you don't like don nelson because he didn't do too well with the knicks and you're a van gundy guy.

[chains5000]

Well, he's also always the GM and Coach so he brings in the guys who will fit into his system.

He gives his players alot of freedom to play his way.
Will they fire Mullin to make Nelson the GM? Mullin hasn't been exactly perfect as GM...

[Joey Zaza]

first of all, i'm not sure if it's even worthwhile to respond to someone who needs wikipedia to talk about basketball.


I used Wilkepedia as source to give an overview of what he did at each team. I could just type my unsupported opinions, but what good is that. Its just my word against others. Now its my word and a source against others.


but the offense he ran with the warriors made sense. he cancelled the bigs, practically eliminated a bit inside game unless you consider tyrone hill to bring run tmc to the table.

Yes it made sense...doesn't prove that he is flexible with his approach


at new york, he just didn't get along with his players.

Good thing you didn't rely on a source, because it sounds so much more intelligent just coming off the top of your head.

They didn't get along because he asked them to do things they weren't good at. That's in-flexibility by everyone.


in dallas, you make it sound like it's nelson's fault that he had a very talented team that mark cuban paid for. like i said, how else would you had coached that team? look at the pieces. motion offense was logical.

There seems to be a reading comprehension problem here. I'm not saying that Nelson is bad coach - he's a good one. The trade for dirk was part of Nelson's dream of a shooting big...and it worked for them. That's great.

I'm just saying he has a system that he implements wherever he goes. He is not flexibe. He asks his players to be flexible, but he is not.


an nba coach letting his players focus on scoring and not play much defense is far from rigid.

No. An NBA coach running the same system on 4 different teams over 40 years is rigid. A flexible coach would occassionally run a different system. A flexible coach is a guy like Adelman. The WCF Sac teams didn't play like his WCF Port teams and this new Sac team doesn't really play like the old one. Adelman changes for his talent.

A rigid coach is P.Jax. Its the triangle...no matter what. Though the triangle does allow for improvisation - as all NBA offensive systems do - he is running that triangle no matter the players.

Nelson is a rigid coach. He is using shooters. He is running the motion. He is using sa point forward. Big men are shooting, Everyone is running


i think you're just mad at him because he screwed up the knicks and you're a van gundy worshipper

How could I be mad a Nelson? He had an offense that he used successfully for 20 years. It was foolish to think that it would work in NY without a commitment to changing the roster. Management should have known that.

I am a JVG fan, but I think like this, if Nelson were flexible and able to successfuly acheive a middle-ground with the NY players, JVG never would have gotten his chance. So I am grateful to Nelson for his inflexibility.

[Lakers]

Have you missed the last 10 years of Don Nelson's coaching career? He is incredible with utilizing talent on a team. He is the coach that can get any team with decent talent to get clicking on offense and playing together. Idiotic to compare him to Isiah.


And Larry Brown hasn't? His tenure there really paid off. :rolleyes:


1) They should have never fired Musselman


Ain't it the truth. After Phil left, I was really, really hoping that the Lakers would pick him up. I wanted to shoot myself in the head(but not really)when they decided on Rudy T. :banghead:

[DCL]

I used Wilkepedia as source to give an overview of what he did at each team. I could just type my unsupported opinions, but what good is that. Its just my word against others. Now its my word and a source against others.

you don't need wikipedia references. even if you wanted support, you could had picked something else, wikipedia is the lowest form of references out there. you would had made more ground without even referencing it. nonetheless, the references you provided were incoherent. (probably because you relied on wikipedia.)

you keep on claiming that he had players who were asked to do everything.

everything? is defense part of everything? last time i checked, defense was a big part of basketball, but nelson isn't rigid enough to enforce that to every team.

also, look at the team at milwaukee. craig hodges? he did everything? he was just a shooter. again, nelson wasn't a rigid coach that tried to convert an outside shooter into something he wasn't. he MAXIMIZED hodges' talents, and hodges sure was a great shooter.

same with golden state. this is like the third or fourth time i'm asking you this and you never respond to it - HOW ELSE WOULD YOU HAD RAN THAT OFFENSE? nelson had three significant scorers, all a bit undersized and small, but that didn't concern him because he was willing to run small ball. it would had been prety STUBBORN of him if he forced his team to play any other way like big ball because then he wouldn't had been utilizing his players. do you think it would had been wise to forcefully convert chris mullin into a defensive stopper??

i really think your biggest beef with nellie was his time in new york. he was there for only a short period, and he was really experiementing with everything. maybe you're blaming him for failing to bring the knicks players together and having a winning a season, so you're spoiling all of his other achievements.

but in dallas, again, yes, it was motion offense, BUT HOW ELSE WOULD YOU HAD RAN THAT OFFENSE?????? look at the pieces of the team. if you had freaking dirk, nash, and finley, to *NOT* run a motion offense would had been extremely stubborn and rigid.

same with this generation's warrirors. recent past coaches have been forcing too many stupid ideas... like dumb things like asking dunleavy to bring up the ball to slow sh!t down, or having baron davis play miles away from the ball or asking troy murphy to camp out 25-30 feet away from the basket. those are just players being badly utilized in the worse way because coaches have been to stubborn to let players just play the game that they're naturally made for. nelson is not a rigid coach like that, and he'll open them up.

but you want to know who's a rigid stubborn coach? your man van gundy.

[Joey Zaza]

same with golden state. this is the third or fourth time i'm asking you this- HOW ELSE WOULD YOU HAD RAN THAT OFFENSE? nelson had three significant scorers, all a bit undersized and small, but that didn't concern him because he was willing to run small ball. it would had been prety STUBBORN of him if he forced his team to play any other way like big ball because then he wouldn't had been utilizing his players.

I've answered your questions but you are a poor reader. He ran it fine and successfully. His system fit very well in 3 of his 4 stops. He's a good coach. He just runs the same system everywhere he goes. That's rigid.

Despite your ALL CAPS and constant rambling, you only keep saying that he was right for runnig the same system everywhere he went. OK. Still good coach. Uses same system. Why does he need to be flexible? He isn't. He uses the same system.

In NY his rigidity was most apparent because he was not allowed ot get the players he needed to make it work. Still, not flexible.


if you had freaking dirk, nash, and finley, to *NOT* run a motion offense would had been extremely stubborn and rigid.

You may not understand what the terms stubborn and rigid mean. Stubborn doesn't just mean defensivetask-master, it means that you run the team the way you've run every team. Your system works and you'll stick to it.

If JVG went to Dallas and ran his half-court system, that would have been stubborn, because his system doesn't fit there. For Nelson to go to Dallas and bring in players that fit into his system and then run his system, doesn't make him flexible, makes him a good GM and coach.

..and vice-versa, if Nelson went ot SA and started asking Duncan to shoot 3's (which he did with Ewing) that's stubborn, but Pop asking Dirk to play in the pain and block shots would also be stubborn.


nelson is not a rigid coach like that, and he'll open them up.

How do we know that? Maybe Nelson will see Davis, Richardson and Dunleavy and think triangle works best for them. But something tells me and DCL, that he'll run the same system he's been running for 40 years. DCL and I agree that it'll yield results.

I think he'll run it because he always runs the same system. DCL thinks he'll use it because for te 4th time in 5 teams it magically fits that talent best.


but you want to know who's a rigid stubborn coach? your man van gundy.

I like stubborn and rigid coaches. So what. I haven't ciriticzed Nelson yet.

[DCL]

nelson favoring a motion offense isn't a sign that he's rigid. you have to look at the personell. look at those warriors. look at those mavs. it's just efficient to play that style. you telling me dallas should had slowed things down and tried to beat opponents by employing some smothering defensive schemes? it's just not happening unless the coach was stubborn about it.

also, in all of nelson's teams, he's never had a dominating big man. well, dirk is big, but he's not traditional big. he had patrick ewing, but that guy fell in love of his jumper more than his post moves. maybe if ewing was more dominating in the paint, nelson would had been more inspired to use him in that fashion. ewing was still a 20-10 guy under nelson's watch though. but you look at all the other teams, the primary scorers were small, so of course small ball and run and gun was the way to go.

and i don't really understand your criticism that nelly must have 2 shooters?!? what competitve basketball team doesn't have shooters? that's not nelly ball. that's just smart ball. even detroit, a defensive specialist team, has rip hamilton and chauncey billups to light it up from outside. you won't win too many nba games without shooters.



How do we know that? Maybe Nelson will see Davis, Richardson and Dunleavy and think triangle works best for them. But something tells me and DCL, that he'll run the same system he's been running for 40 years. DCL and I agree that it'll yield results.

there's really no doubt in my mind that nelson will run a motion offense in golden state. but look at the players. they're young, athletic, and can run. you stick to efficiency. with guys like baron davis and jason richardson, of course, you run and gun it. better than what they're doing now... like asking dunleavy to walk down the court and chop like 15 second off the clock before forcing a stupid pass to adonal foyle, who either commits a turn over or tosses up a brick while troy murphy stands out 25 feet away staring at an impossible offensive rebound with davis or richardson throwing their hands up in the air asking wtf.

[Steven A Smith]

All I can say is "Its about time". No disrespect to coach Mike Montogomery but he was doing the Golden State Warriors no good. Nelli is the right man for the job. He can utilize the Richardson/Davis backcourt and has proven himself before.

[9spurs]

Warriors are going to be interesting to watch this year.

[Ricardo Tubbs]

look at those mavs. it's just efficient to play that style.

I don't believe for one second that Nelson maximized the personnel he had in Dallas. He clearly underutilized Nash. Perhaps understandable because Nash had a pretty horrible lockout season, but Nash was known early on in his career as a dynamic, creative point guard. Nelson took a lot of that away. Rather than a motion offense which actually ended up in a lot of isolation plays and jumpshots, he should have let Nash run the team as a traditional PG, like D'Antoni allows him to. But hey, Nash was so good even as a sidekick I can't blame Nelson too much.

One thing for sure is that he really just does not give a rat's ass about defense. Even D'Antoni has tried quite a bit to improve his team's defense. Nelson never even pretended trying. Offense was never the problem there, defense was, and any idiot could see it. Yet he kept trying to win with as many iso scorers as he could get, going so far as adding Tawn and Toine, which was actually a step backwards. If that's not rigid I don't know what is.

And if he runs his motion offense in Oakland, they will suck hard at it, because there are no shooters at all on that team. Their biggest problem is already that they take too many ill-advised jumpers. Nobody on that team except maybe Dunleavy has any real desire to pass to others. I would not be surprised if they actually had a worse record next season.

[Joey Zaza]

Running out of energy and patience in this argument. I have written quite a bit on how Nelson is a rigid coach because he always uses the same offense and approach everywhere he goes.

To everyone who wants to tell me that Nelson is a flexible coach who tailors his system to the players he has...I want proof. Not "Well, it was the best system!"

Actual proof that he changed his approach based on the talent he was handed. Maybe the system he ran in Dall differed from GS and I was insensitive to it. Maybe over his 10 yrs in GS he radically changed his offense. He got Webber in there somewhere, did he start running stuff in the post for him?

Proof. Not ALL CAPS not hypothesis. Something supportable, that I can touch, telling me that he is flexible - not that he runs an open system, - but that he is flexible in the system he runs.


he had patrick ewing, but that guy fell in love of his jumper more than his post moves. maybe if ewing was more dominating in the paint, nelson would had been more inspired to use him in that fashion. ewing was still a 20-10 guy under nelson's watch though.

Must be addressed. Just ignorant. Ewing's "jumpers" were all in the paint. Ewing set up in the post. at that time, he'd take maybe 3 catch-and-shoot jumpers from the top of the key a game. Even those he'd generally have a foot in.

Also Nellie took Ewing out of the paint on defense. Say what you want about the jumper, but dude protected the paint on D...

...but Nelson totally acclimated to NY's talent. not at all rigid.

[FabCasablancas]

The Bucks were a team known for their defense. They were one of the top defensive teams in the league. The Mavs and GS were some of the best offensive teams in the league. If that's not flexible, what is?

Nellie coaches according to his personnel. Nellie said you couldn't win running your team through old Ewing in a conventioinal offense.. and Van Gundy proved him right.

[Joey Zaza]

The Bucks were a team known for their defense. They were one of the top defensive teams in the league. The Mavs and GS were some of the best offensive teams in the league. If that's not flexible, what is?

So the Bucks were a team known for their defense and your proof of that is because you say so. Interesting method of proving your point.

Bunch of damned hacks.


Nellie coaches according to his personnel. Nellie said you couldn't win running your team through old Ewing in a conventioinal offense.. and Van Gundy proved him right

Right by winning games after Nelson left and taking the Knicks - with Ewing at the helm - to the Finals, where Don has never been.

How did he coach to his personnel in NY again?

C'mon proof. c'mon hacks. Lets have it.

[DCL]

Running out of energy and patience in this argument. I have written quite a bit on how Nelson is a rigid coach because he always uses the same offense and approach everywhere he goes.


just by reading your posts, i can tell you *never* watched nelly coach golden state. he's one of the more flexible coaches to let his players play the way they're more fit for. you're the kind to seek proof from something like wikipedia!? lol. i don't need to pull things from wikipedia. information is received from actually *watching* the game. when he had webber, the team had post game. did this question even needed to be asked?? obviously, you never watched any of it. but of course,you couldn't have known because it wasn't written in wikipedia, the authortiative source of historical basketball references. right.


Not "Well, it was the best system!"

okay, this is just really tiring. i keep on asking you what were better systems for teams like the mavs or those warriors, and simply cannot provide an answer.

just answer these simple questions.

how else would you had played mullin? how else would you had let dirk play? or mitch richmond or hardaway? ?

did you want mullin to be a defensive guy and post player or rebounder?? what's your beef with the system if that's the most efficient one to use?



Must be addressed. Just ignorant. Ewing's "jumpers" were all in the paint. Ewing set up in the post. at that time, he'd take maybe 3 catch-and-shoot jumpers from the top of the key a game. Even those he'd generally have a foot in.

now you're really talking nonsense. it is extremely ignorant to say something like "oh, he'd only take 3 catch and shoot jumpers from the of the key."

only?? ha ha. like taking that many AT THE TOP OF THE KEY wasn't bad already. the guy was a 7ft center. when he was drafted #1 out of georgetown, he was supposed to be one of those dominating big guys to change the game like kareem. but no, he became a guy who occassionally camped out at the top of the key to shoot.

but it was more than three, with the rest still 15 feet and beyond and in vicinity. ewing was just a soft center that never lived up to the hype and fell in love with the soft jump shot. you knew it. nelson knew it. chicago knew it. we all knew it. because he just took that many.

[FabCasablancas]

Don't get so excited man.. haha

Do you hate Nellie that much? Did Ewing win a ring with anyone? How can you knock Nellie for not thinking he could win running through Ewing? No one else could.

The Bucks WERE a defensive team. Sidney Moncreif was a stellar defender. They were a top ranked defensive tema in the league. They won with D. Ewing might have got to the Finals.. but that isn't a ring.. Nellie was playing to win. Nellie is knocked because he never won a championship. He never had the tools to win a championship. The only true great player Nellie ever had was Dirk.. and he had to practically build Dirk out of nothing. And he barely had him in his prime for a couple minutes.. and he didn't have the pieces to put around Dirk to win. The Mavs still can't get a bigman to play with dirk.

Nellie is a victim of his own success.. any other coach who doesn't get lucky and get great players to coach with, as long as Nellie, gets tossed out of the league never to return. But Nellie was able to be successful with what he had. It was like Nellie was building racecars to run in the Indianapolis 500 out of scrap..

[TheReturnofCed]

Warrioirs are going to kick ass because:

Dunleavy Jr. = Chris Mullin (both white shooters! OMG! OMG!)

Richardson = Mitch Richmond (both shooting guards around 20ppg! OMG! OMG!)

Davis = Tim Hardaway (both chucks with mental issues! OMG! OMG!)

:rollingeyes:

Reality check nimrods:

Warriors = 34 wins.

[Joey Zaza]

just by reading your posts, i can tell you *never* watched nelly coach golden state. he's one of the more flexible coaches to let his playerrs adjust to their abilities. you're the kind to seek proof from something like wikipedia.

Dude I just want something other than your brain. He let his players adjust to their abilities. Did he ever adjust to his player's abilities. The facthat he let his players freelance is every coaches job. Even JVG and Brown allow players to "do their thing"...tis gotta be built into any system.

but did Mr. Flex ever adjust his coaching to suit his player's abilities. did he adjust his coaching for the playoff run?


this is really tiring. i keep on asking you what were better systems for teams like the mavs or those warriors, and simply cannot provide an answer.

There is no answer. Nelson runs his system very well. If I'm Nelson, I make adjustments when my Dallas team cannot advance in the playoffs. I don't know what the adjustment is, I'm not a coahc - but I make adjustments.

Avery is a flexible coach. He makes adjustments ot personnel and matchups all the time. Nelson is not.


now you're really talking nonsense. it is extremely ignorant to say something like "oh, he'd only take 3 catch and shoot jumpers from the of the key."

like taking that many AT THE TOP OF THE KEY wasn't bad already. the guy was a 7ft center.

but it was more than three, with the rest still 15 feet and beyond and in vicinity. ewing was just a soft center that fell in love with the jump shot. you knew it. nelson knew. chicago knew it. we all knew it. because he just took that many.

Its untrue. He would take a bunch of shots. Some were jumpers, most were runners of the wrong foot, some were fadaways. He wasn't a real big dunk guy, but he'd get some baseline, some fadeaways. I think most shots were 5-10 feet out. If its the dunks you are upset about, if Ewing could get to the basket more, he would have dunked more - but he faced doubleteams and didn't have the power of Shaq.

I'm don't think he took alot of shots from 15 feet and out. The baseline shots were more like 10 feet.

Ewing wasn't soft. He wasn't clutch. He played hard. He played a ton of D and didn't shy from contact. He had 0 offense coming out of college, but developed an offensive game for the pros.

I'm not sure what Nelson knew. He knew he wanted to change the way NY played. I think he thought more highly of Ewing's range than was appropriate and proably overrated Mason a little.

He certainly didn't adjust ot the team's talent.

[Joey Zaza]

The Bucks WERE a defensive team. Sidney Moncreif was a stellar defender. They were a top ranked defensive tema in the league. They won with D.

I actually did some research and the bucks were good defensively in their era. Not sure what that proves.

I don't hate Nellie. I think he's a good coach, read my posts.

I disagree that he's a felxible coach. He did not adjust to talent, he'd bring in talent that could adjust to him - and he did it very well. When he was challenged in NY, he failed. Part of playoff coaching is flexibility and adjustments - which Nellie is horrible at.


Nellie is a victim of his own success.. any other coach who doesn't get lucky and get great players to coach with, as long as Nellie, gets tossed out of the league never to return. But Nellie was able to be successful with what he had. It was like Nellie was building racecars to run in the Indianapolis 500 out of scrap..

Nellie was usually his own GM, so if his players were bad, its really his fault. I don't think he gets the "I have no players" excuse. The Knick team he took over had just been to its second consecutive conference finals. They were good. His GS team was quite good, then became quite bad. His Dallas team was terriffic.

[FabCasablancas]

Nellie was usually his own GM, so if his players were bad, its really his fault.

I didn't say they were bad.. I said they weren't great. If you haevn't noticed.. most of the championships are won by truly great players. Nellie neve rhad one until Dirk.. and Dirk can't even get any respect anyway. Neither could Nellie.. for the same kind of politics that dogs Dirk. The NBA id a popularity contest.. and if you get out you can't get in. Dirk and Nellie haven't ever been able to get in, because they aren't what the league pushes.

I don't think he gets the "I have no players" excuse.

It's the "I have no turly great players atr their peak"

The Knick team he took over had just been to its second consecutive conference finals.

Ewing was old and a choker..

They were good. His GS team was quite good, then became quite bad.

Never had a truly great player and Webber blew it up. Nellie wanted to use Webber like they did in Sac. But Webber wouldn't have it.

His Dallas team was terriffic.

Dallas was good but wasn't built properly. Cuban's priority was winning now. rather than building the team correctly. And because of that Dirk can't get a quality bigman to play with. The only way you can usually do that is through the draft.

If you want to knock Nellie as a Gm I don't have a problem with that. He was never able to get good enough bigmen or enough good bigmen.. You can't knock him for his coaching though.. he is a truly great coach.

[DCL]

Dude I just want something other than your brain. He let his players adjust to their abilities. Did he ever adjust to his player's abilities. The facthat he let his players freelance is every coaches job. Even JVG and Brown allow players to "do their thing"...tis gotta be built into any system.


are you sure van gundy let his players to their thing?? better ask steve francis that.

anyway, if you look back and compare nelson to other coaches, nelly is one of the more open-minded and creative coaches to ever coach the game in terms of willing to try completely different things. run tmc was a perfect example. at the time, his approach was so unorthodox and even ridiculed, but he made them work. he had no big man, no defense, just have 3 guys killing teams on offense. that idea was supposed to suck, but he still got them to win 50+ games. of course, that style wasn't going to win any championships, but the issue wasn't an adjustement problem, but a personnel problem. you can only do so much with what he had.

in dallas, he got those guys to 50+ wins for 4 consecutive seasons. he practically built that team from scratch. i think his overall achievement is more impressive than what he didn't do in the playoffs. dallas was a stinker doormat in the nba for years before don nelson. how many guys can walk in and change the whole face of the team and make them into the elite level the way that nelson did? only a few. you don't achieve things like that by being "stubborn" or "rigid."

but anyway, i really think your whole bias against nellie is based on his half-season in new york when he was still experimenting with the team and when they didn't have an identity, but it's kinda funny you're sorta discrediting all his work for just those 50 games or so in new york. new york is just historically tough and still is. not much change can really be done over there in just half-a-season. it took van gundy awhile to get things going anyway. and it wasn't exactly a sudden transformation.



but did Mr. Flex ever adjust his coaching to suit his player's abilities. did he adjust his coaching for the playoff run?

when nellie had tmc, he went to small ball. when tmc broke up, he adapted and played bigger with guys like victor alexander, chris gatling, tyrone hill, then also later with webber for that short period. sprewell was running the joint, but the offense at that time had a reformat and wasn't anything like run tmc. they still ran, but their inside presence was significantly more noticeable, and they did play more defense. again, this change would had been very obvious to you if you had actually watched any of the games instead of just reading articles from wikipedia.



Its untrue. He would take a bunch of shots. Some were jumpers, most were runners of the wrong foot, some were fadaways. He wasn't a real big dunk guy, but he'd get some baseline, some fadeaways. I think most shots were 5-10 feet out. If its the dunks you are upset about, if Ewing could get to the basket more, he would have dunked more - but he faced doubleteams and didn't have the power of Shaq.

his favorite outside shot was the baseline angle. debating whether it's 15ft or 12ft is trivial. the bottom line is that he should had banged it inside more. he was supposed to be the next kareem-type center, a dominating big man that was supposed to carry his team to win championships. but that title actually turned out to be hakeem.





I'm not sure what Nelson knew. He knew he wanted to change the way NY played. I think he thought more highly of Ewing's range than was appropriate and proably overrated Mason a little.

was it nelson that thought highly of ewing's range or was it ewing who thought highly of ewing's range? can't really tell. whenever he touched the ball faraway, he seemed very trigger happy.

[Shepseskaf]

I always wondered what GS was thinking about when they got Montgomery in the first place. I guess he came cheap. He was ready to be fired the day he was hired.

[DCL]

oh, another thing about nelson's open-mindedness.

give him credit for being one of the first guys to look into european players.

he discovered sarunis marcilinoius (sp) and gave him a chance. he also jocked on dirk, who eventually opened the giant floodgate to the rest of the world. before, people only looked at candidates from ncaa tournaments.

nelson was one of the early guys to help open a door to a giant foreign floodgate. most other top nba executives would had never touched it. you don't draft foriegn unknowns by being "rigid" with conventional thinking.

[FabCasablancas]

I think Dumars should have hired Nellie to coach the Pistons. I would have loved to have seen that. Nellie could have shown he is a great offensive AND defensive coach. He couldn't be worse than Flip.. no matter how you slice it.

[TMacsOneGoodEye]

They'll be alot of fun to watch but they won't win any games or do anything great. Their pretenders and have been for the past 3 or 4 years. Their always supposed to be good and never are.

The Warriors & The Nuggets are always supposed to be a top seed but never are. At least the Nuggets make the playoffs (but get swept when Melo dissapears) whats the warriors excuse?

[Niquesports]

Heard it on ESPN radio before you made the thread. RUN TMC!!! of course, without TMC. Maybe he can get B Diddy, J. Rich, Dunleavy, and all of them clicking. Scary.

He will do what all his teams do score a lot of points with no D what so ever and lose early in the playoffs

[Niquesports]

oh, another thing about nelson's open-mindedness.

give him credit for being one of the first guys to look into european players.

he discovered sarunis marcilinoius (sp) and gave him a chance. he also jocked on dirk, who eventually opened the giant floodgate to the rest of the world. before, people only looked at candidates from ncaa tournaments.

nelson was one of the early guys to help open a door to a giant foreign floodgate. most other top nba executives would had never touched it. you don't draft foriegn unknowns by being "rigid" with conventional thinking.

Lets be honest its a great thing that new talent has come into the league but what team has won a title with a euro as its prime player Zero Nellie is what is wrong with the NBa 7 foot players shooting 3's soft centers when will someone get reall smart and go develop talent in Africa and fine the next Hakeem or Mutombo instead of lokking for the next 7 foot Dirk that wants to shoot jumpers all the time.

[305Baller]

This will be fun...

[DCL]

Lets be honest its a great thing that new talent has come into the league but what team has won a title with a euro as its prime player Zero Nellie is what is wrong with the NBa 7 foot players shooting 3's soft centers when will someone get reall smart and go develop talent in Africa and fine the next Hakeem or Mutombo instead of lokking for the next 7 foot Dirk that wants to shoot jumpers all the time.


if you're talking about titles, why did you bring mutombo up??? ha ha

and your screen name is nique. how many conference finals did nique make?

a lot of foreign players are garbage (tckitivilla or whatever his name is). but there are still a lot of non-us players who got game. they may not be championship level, but that doesn't mean they don't belong in the nba. they can play and they improve teams. ie ginobili, kirilenko, nocioni, etc. most of these guys would probably still playing in the euro leagues if guys like don nelson hadn't helped expose the talent from overseas.

[Joey Zaza]

Lets be honest its a great thing that new talent has come into the league but what team has won a title with a euro as its prime player?

What team has ever won a title without a top 5 pick as its prime player:

Wade
Duncan
Billups
Duncan
Shaq
Shaq
Shaq
Duncan
Mj
MJ
MJ
Hakeem
Hakeem
Mj
MJ
MJ
------------
We then lets not talk about finding talent late in the draft. The only thing that matters is the top 5 pick.

[windex66]

Let's get real, folks. Baron Davis DIDN'T RUN Montgomery's offense last year. Jump shot, jump shot, turn over, dribble drive, TO... it was SICK! Oh, then missed more free throws by millionaires? So Cohan had to spend millions to make Baron Davis happy? B/c Davis didn't "respect" Monty?!? Can you spell headcase?

Nellie: I like Nellie, but he never got us past the 2nd round of the (expanded) playoffs, and never got us a Big Man. (Boston had what, 5 at one time?) Anyway, Mully has his coach back, Rod Higgins is there, etc., so he has all of his "buddies" around him - showing, really, that his basketball "network" isn't too deep. If they don't win this next year or two, Mully should be gone, and Nellie, too.

Al Attles: still gets no respect for the AMAZING things he did as coach in the 70s w/Rick Barry & Co. **NBA Title** Attles was insightful enough to bring in (in preseason) BUD PRESLEY in to TEACH DEFENSE - a JuCo coach who was a DEFENSIVE GENIUS & MADMAN! Oh, Attles didn't play 9 men... he played 11!! Don't play hard? Put your butt on the bench!!

Anyway, time for Mully & Nellie to stop living off of the Run TMC half-good team memories. If I were Cohan, I'd make them watch ALL FOUR OF ATTLES VICTORIES OVER THE WASHINGTON BULLETS, plus a few other choice games were the GSW schooled Dr. J, the Lakers, et al. They've got the pieces to be good, IF Nellie can coach Davis; if Davis stays healthy; if the young Big Men can play 10 solid minutes (each), on ocassion; and IF Dunleavey grows some balls. But please... the Bay Area kises Mully's & Nelli's butt too much. Will they now deliver??

[BlkMambaGOAT]

https://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/sp/thumb/1349/49/1349496005656s.jpg

[Akrazotile]

The Warriors & The Nuggets are always supposed to be a top seed but never are. At least the Nuggets make the playoffs (but get swept when Melo dissapears) whats the warriors excuse?


8 years later and this its still true, AND even expands to include Carmelos current team, the knicks.


Crazy.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

Damn, I haven't see a lot of these posters post in a long time. Makes sense. There's actual basketball discussion in this thread.