So turns out MJ also has the GOAT plus-minus?
We now have almost his entire career playoff ON-OFF. Missing only 1986 (3 games), 1987 (3 games) and 1995 (10 games). All the data from super reliable sources too.
[url]https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2314587[/url]
On: +8.38
Off: -8.56 [note: it is -8.83 if using the alternate value for 1990]
On-Off: +16.94 [note: it is +17.21 if using the alternate value for 1990]
+17 ON-OFF is freaking bonkers! :lol
When factoring in the missing games it probably goes down a bit because he lost 3/4 series in 1986/1987/1995 but I doubt it ends up below +14 or +15 which is still the highest playoff ON-OFF of any modern superstar I know.
Re: So turns out MJ also has the GOAT plus-minus?
Can you list some other players ON-OFF plus minus? Like LeBron, Kobe, Duncan, Steph, etc.
Re: So turns out MJ also has the GOAT plus-minus?
[QUOTE=dankok8;14821587]We now have almost his entire career playoff ON-OFF. [B]Missing only 1986 (3 games), 1987 (3 games) and 1995 (10 games). All the data from super reliable sources too.
[/B]
[url]https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2314587[/url]
On: +8.38
Off: -8.56 [note: it is -8.83 if using the alternate value for 1990]
On-Off: +16.94 [note: it is +17.21 if using the alternate value for 1990]
+17 ON-OFF is freaking bonkers! :lol
When factoring in the missing games it probably goes down a bit because he lost 3/4 series in 1986/1987/1995 but I doubt it ends up below +14 or +15 which is still the highest playoff ON-OFF of any modern superstar I know.[/QUOTE]
How convenient. two years when he got swept and another year where he lost.
Re: So turns out MJ also has the GOAT plus-minus?
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14821603]How convenient. two years when he got swept and another year where he lost.[/QUOTE]
That's why I said his total career ON-OFF is probably like +14 or +15. But that's still probably the highest of any recent superstar.
[B]Career Playoff ON-OFF 1997-present:[/B]
Stephen Curry +12.0
Shaquille O'Neal +11.7
Lebron James +10.2
Kobe Bryant +7.6
Tim Duncan +7.5
Re: So turns out MJ also has the GOAT plus-minus?
[QUOTE=dankok8;14821610]That's why I said his total career ON-OFF is probably like +14 or +15. But that's still probably the highest of any recent superstar.
[B]Career Playoff ON-OFF 1997-present:[/B]
Stephen Curry +12.0
Shaquille O'Neal +11.7
Lebron James +10.2
Kobe Bryant +7.6
Tim Duncan +7.5[/QUOTE]
Where did you find the on-off for everyone else, you have a link?
Re: So turns out MJ also has the GOAT plus-minus?
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14821612]Where did you find the on-off for everyone else, you have a link?[/QUOTE]
Basketball-Reference pages for each player under Play-by-Play.
Re: So turns out MJ also has the GOAT plus-minus?
I don't have time to look it up right now, but didn't Thinking Basketball do a video last year regarding this? I believe his conclusion was while MJ's on/ off, +/-, or some stat like that was all time great it was slightly behind Shaq and LeBron. Again, I can't remember the details.
Re: So turns out MJ also has the GOAT plus-minus?
[QUOTE=jlip;14821625]I don't have time to look it up right now, but didn't Thinking Basketball do a video last year regarding this? I believe his conclusion was while MJ's on/ off, +/-, or some stat like that was all time great it was slightly behind Shaq and LeBron. Again, I can't remember the details.[/QUOTE]
Yea, unless we can get an official stat on this, alot of this stuff is "He said, she said".
Re: So turns out MJ also has the GOAT plus-minus?
Looking at some other players, numbers that surprised/amused me
Garnett's career playoff on-off is +14.5
Jokic was only a +2 during his title run
Durant had a -52.9 in the Celtics series in 2022
Re: So turns out MJ also has the GOAT plus-minus?
Do we these numbers for Guys like magic, bird, Wilt, Russell etc? If not he's just the goat of an incomplete data set lol.
Re: So turns out MJ also has the GOAT plus-minus?
[QUOTE=dankok8;14821587]We now have almost his entire career playoff ON-OFF. Missing only 1986 (3 games), 1987 (3 games) and 1995 (10 games). All the data from super reliable sources too.
[url]https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2314587[/url]
On: +8.38
Off: -8.56 [note: it is -8.83 if using the alternate value for 1990]
On-Off: +16.94 [note: it is +17.21 if using the alternate value for 1990]
+17 ON-OFF is freaking bonkers! :lol
When factoring in the missing games it probably goes down a bit because he lost 3/4 series in 1986/1987/1995 but I doubt it ends up below +14 or +15 which is still the highest playoff ON-OFF of any modern superstar I know.[/QUOTE]
Why is it bonkers? What do you think this on-off stat is telling you?
Re: So turns out MJ also has the GOAT plus-minus?
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14821630]Looking at some other players, numbers that surprised/amused me
Garnett's career playoff on-off is +14.5
Jokic was only a +2 during his title run
Durant had a -52.9 in the Celtics series in 2022[/QUOTE]
Embiid was something like +95 on and -100 off against the Raps.
Re: So turns out MJ also has the GOAT plus-minus?
I'm not sure about the On-Off stat being that useful.
It seems to slant towards players who play a lot of minutes and have good starting rotations, or rather, teams that stack their good players with their superstar, because they play many minutes. In theory it skews towards old school stars.
Take Jokic and his supposed low +-. I've rarely seen a player be more valuable on the court.
Re: So turns out MJ also has the GOAT plus-minus?
[QUOTE=jlip;14821625]I don't have time to look it up right now, but didn't Thinking Basketball do a video last year regarding this? I believe his conclusion was while MJ's on/ off, +/-, or some stat like that was all time great it was slightly behind Shaq and LeBron. Again, I can't remember the details.[/QUOTE]
Yes for single year MJ was behind a few players like Lebron, Shaq and KG but single year is very noisy because of small sample size.
Re: So turns out MJ also has the GOAT plus-minus?
He did so without scottie pippen?