Could Pippen have played PG and averaged 11 apg?

It's a travesty that people think Pippen was the better passer.

Pippen's handle was BASIC... Consequently, his assists were of the basic variety that didn't require PG-level handles like many of MJ's assists did.. Otoh, MJ's handle and passes had a point-guard level of nuance and sophistication to them.. That's why he was able to average 30/9/11 as a point guard for 24 games and also 33/7/11 in the 1991 Finals.

Is Pippen capable of starting at point guard or averaging 11 apg?... Obviously not.. Pippen's body was more rigid - he couldn't slide through defenders and create like MJ.. MJ's superior handles and scoring ability put his passing game in a different dimension of sophistication from what Pippen did.. MJ got equal or greater assists while scoring 50% to 120% more.

Anyone that says Pippen is a better passer either doesn't understand basketball or is taking a devil's advocate position because they hate how much MJ is revered.

[COLOR="Navy"]MJ had a point guard-level handle and passing ability - Pippen did not.[/COLOR]
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No, and Jordan couldn't do it either, he only did it once for a short period of time.

Shut up already

[QUOTE=Papaya Petee]


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-10-2015/Q7f0-F.gif[/IMG]


No, and Jordan couldn't do it either, he only did it once for a short period of time.

Shut up already


[/QUOTE]
Riiiiight... :rolleyes:

He got lucky averaging 30/9/11 for 24 games, including 10 triple doubles in 11 games... and then 33/7/11 in the Finals... It was all coincidence.. :facepalm

No.

6>5>1.5*

what a coincidence 11 assist 24 games

then 11 assist in the finals 5 games

= he could average 11 assist for the whole season

[QUOTE=3ball]Riiiiight... :rolleyes:

He got lucky averaging 30/9/11 for 24 games, including 10 triple doubles in 11 games... and then 33/7/11 in the Finals... It was all coincidence.. :facepalm[/QUOTE]

Now you're resorting to an arbitrary 24 game sample size? What exactly does that prove? Wade had a month stretch in 2009 averging 37 ppg and 11 apg. You could probably cherry pick a stretch of games from any great player to make it look like they were better at something than they really were.

Could MJ win a playoff series without Pippen, Like Pippen did multiple times without Jordan?

[QUOTE=GrapeApe]

Now you're resorting to an arbitrary 24 game sample size? What exactly does that prove? Wade had a month stretch in 2009 averging 37 ppg and 11 apg. You could probably cherry pick a stretch of games from any great player to make it look like they were better at something than they really were.

[/QUOTE]
[I]Wade is a better passer than Pippen too.. :confusedshrug: .. Similar to MJ, Wade had a PG-level handle and passing ability, whereas Pippen did not.[/I]

Pippen was just a novelty at point-forward so everyone noticed him every time he dribbled.. But his handle was nowhere near the nuance and sophistication of Wade or MJ, whose handle was considered elite for [I]guards[/I].. But their status as guards meant that no one gave them extra props for being able to dribble.. Again, most of this idea that Pippen was a better passer is simply a devil's advocate stance taken by fans who are tired of MJ.

In Wade's case, given his pg-level handle and passing ability, it's not surprise he had a great stretch where he put up high assist and scoring numbers.. Otoh, Pippen has no such stretch... (And btw, nobody's stretch is anywhere near as long as MJ's 24 games - not Wade's, not Lebron's, not Westbrook's - their stretches are literally half as long... And only Westbrook's included a triple-double stretch, which was still half as long as MJ's).

But back to the point of the thread - Pippen's passing ability isn't anywhere near MJ's, due to his non-point guard-level handle and inability to average 11 apg during ANY stretch, let alone a stretch twice as long as Lebron, Wade or Westbrook ever had (or in the Finals).

Hey guys! 1 playoff series and a 24 game sample means Jordan was capable of 11 APG for full seasons! Could of been an all time great PG!

By that logic Westbrook is capable of averaging a triple double for a season.

Kobe could of averaged 40+ PPG in a season.

Etc. Etc.

:wtf:

[QUOTE=Papaya Petee]Hey guys! 1 playoff series and a 24 game sample means Jordan was capable of 11 APG for full seasons! Could of been an all time great PG!

By that logic Westbrook is capable of averaging a triple double for a season.

Kobe could of averaged 40+ PPG in a season.

Etc. Etc.

:wtf:[/QUOTE]
That's not what the OP said - the OP said that Pippen could never start at point guard like MJ, because he doesn't have a point guard-level handle like MJ did.. Pippen also isn't capable of averaging 11 apg over ANY stretch, let alone 24 games like MJ.

You're forgetting that MJ's 24 games is twice as long as the stretches where Lebron, Wade and Westbrook averaged that many assists - their stretches of 11 apg were half as long as MJ's - but they also had a pg-level handle... Pippen doesn't have a PG-level handle or the ability to average 11 apg... Therefore, he's nowhere near the passer MJ was..

Pippen was just a novelty at point-forward so everyone noticed him every time he dribbled.. But his handle was nowhere near the nuance and sophistication of Wade, MJ, or Westbrook, whose handle was considered elite for [I]guards[/I].. But their status as guards meant that no one gave them extra props for being able to dribble.. Again, most of this idea that Pippen was a better passer is simply a devil's advocate stance taken by fans who are tired of MJ.

I think Pippen would have been a GREAT PG. At the SF position, he already had elite PG handles and pace to his game. He would have been a 6'8 PG would could ACTUALLY defend the smaller PG's well. So u wouldn't have to do cross matchups like the Lakers did with Magic. But to get 11 assists a night, I think u have to be great at PASSING GUYS OPEN!

In other words, threading the needle, no look passes, and literally making guys be open WHO HAVE NO BUSINESS being open. Pippen wasn't really prolific in that realm of passing to get 10-11 apg year after year. Could I see Pip averaging 10 dimes in a given season? Sure! But I don't see him going any higher than that.

If Pip played PG, I see him getting a Paytonesque 20-22 points, 8-9 dimes, and world class lockdown defense. But Pippen could also add 8 boards a night to that. Guys like Pippen and Payton were great passers, but are on that second tier behind guys like Magic, Big O, Nash, Zeke, Kidd, and Stockton.

Could Jordan? No. At least not consistently.

[QUOTE=bizil]

I think Pippen would have been a GREAT PG. At the SF position, he already had elite PG handles

[/quote]
Pippen couldn't break guys down off the dribble - to have an elite handle, a player must be able to break guys down off the dribble like isiah thomas, tim hardaway, Wade or Jordan.. or guys like grant hill or michael ray richardson.

pippen didnt have elite handle like these guys.. i would say Pip's handle was above-average for a guard at best - but nowhere near elite - you need breakdown ability for that.


[QUOTE=bizil]

He would have been a 6'8 PG [B]would could ACTUALLY defend the smaller PG's well.[/B]

[/QUOTE]
Other than the 1998 ECF when pippen guarded the slowest pg of all time (mark jackson), when did pippen ever guard a smaller pg?.. MJ did it all the time, but Pippen never did.

Pippen almost always guarded the other team's SF... It was MJ who guarded the other teams PG or SG, whoever was better.. MJ was the quicker player and he was a SG, so guarding PG's was far more feasible for him than Pippen.

[QUOTE=MP.Trey]

Could Jordan? No. [B]At least not consistently.[/B]

[/QUOTE]
You need EVIDENCE to say the bolded above - you need a stretch where MJ played point guard and DIDN'T average 11 apg.. But we don't have that.

All we have is MJ averaging 11 apg for the only time period that he was at point guard (24 games, almost 2 months).. And that stretch was approximately twice as long as the stretches where Lebron, Wade, and Westbrook averaged 11 apg.

So the only evidence we have is that Jordan WAS capable of doing it consistently - in his [U]first-ever run[/U] at PG, he put up prime Oscar type numbers - [I]you can't do any better in your first run at PG - so to say that "oh, he wouldn't have been able to play PG at an elite level" isn't logical - all the evidence we have says he would[/I].


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-25-2015/0X7oDr.gif[/IMG]


^^^ this is from the beginning of the OP video.. Apparently, MJ scored half his team's 4th quarter points in 1988.. That makes sense since Pippen and Grant were rookies that didn't start (they only played 20 minutes per game each) and their averages were 8/4/2 and 8/6/1, respectively.

In 1989, Pippen and Grant improved to 14/6/3 and 12/9/2, but Pippen's 14 ppg wasn't much for a 2nd option and he was wildly inconsistent - overall, the team was worse talent-wise because they'd lost Charles Oakley.. Consequently, they only won 47 games in 1989 (less than 1988) and only managed a 6-seed going into the playoffs.

However, MJ played better than any player ever has in the 1989 playoffs, which allowed his underdog team to make the ECF - he averaged 40/6/8 against a 57-win Cleveland team, who had the #2 defense and 3 all-stars (Daughtery, Nance, Price) plus 20 ppg budding superstar Ron Harper.. In the 2nd Round, MJ averaged 36/9/8 against the Knicks... In the ECF, the Bulls fell to Detroit, despite MJ's 30/6/7 against the [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m49s]"Jordan Rules"[/url] and greatest defense of all time, featuring All-NBA defenders Rodman and Dumars..

Unfortunately for MJ, Pippen only averaged 10/7 on 40% in that series and provided very little help - this would become a trend - in 1990 ECF, Pippen disappeared in Game 7 of ECF.. In the 1996 Finals, he was abysmal with 15 ppg on 34%, which was similar to the 1998 Finals, where he averaged 15 ppg on 41%, including 8 and 6 points in the final 2 games.. During the 1996-1998 playoffs (2nd three-peat), Pippen averaged 17/7/5 on 40.8%.
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[QUOTE=3ball][B]You need EVIDENCE to say the bolded above - you need a stretch where MJ played point guard and DIDN'T average 11 apg.. But we don't have that.[/B]

All we have is MJ averaging 11 apg for the only time period that he was at point guard (24 games, almost 2 months).. And that stretch was approximately twice as long as the stretches where Lebron, Wade, and Westbrook averaged 11 apg.

So the only evidence we have is that Jordan WAS capable of doing it consistently - in his [U]first-ever run[/U] at PG, he put up prime Oscar type numbers - [I]you can't do any better in your first run at PG - so to say that "oh, he wouldn't have been able to play PG at an elite level" isn't logical - all the evidence we have says he would[/I].[/QUOTE]
Provide EVIDENCE where Pippen played PG and didn't average 11 apg, over an adequate sample size.