"1991 Finals FMVP is Scottie" Horace's Never Ending Hatred of GOAT

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[QUOTE] [SIZE=4][I]"If I had a vote in that first championship for MVP, it would have been Scottie," said Grant in 2010 via nba.com when asked about that series. "He brought his whole game, and everyone could see. The way he played Magic (Johnson) and made him turn and turn and turn and made him work like that was the difference, especially after we lost the first game. And he averaged more than 20 points. I think he was our leading scorer when we won."[/I][/SIZE] [/QUOTE]

Here you go folks.

Not just 1996 FMVP belongs to Rodman, now,

1991 FMVP belongs to Pippen. Despite GOAT's GOATest performances in Game 2, Game 3 in OT (after Pippen fouled out and left GOAT by himself ON THE ROAD) and Game 4 Performance that gave BULLS insurmountable 3-1 lead and literally ended the series.

I guess GOAT digging BULLS out of 0-1 hole to 3-1 mountainous lead is not good enough for FMVP ahead of Pippen who scored game high 32 pts when GOAT was busy collecting free assists off Paxon's jumpers.

He's absolutely right. He should've also been MVP in 1994.

As a player, all the games blend together and they end up going off the same erroneous mainstream narratives as everyone else, such as Pippen guarding Magic... It's fact that MJ was the primary defender on Magic for 70% of the possessions - this includes the entirety of games 1, 4, 5 (except the last 4 min of game 4), and the 2nd half/OT of game 3.. No one has ever averaged 30 while carrying such a massive defensive burden against a top all-time opponent.. It's the GOAT 2-way performance, yet MJ gets little credit for it.. Somehow, Pippen's 10 minutes on Magic in a blowout win is considered the difference.. It all started when the media was trying to come up with ways to credit the whole team instead of just MJ in the immediate aftermath of winning Game 5 and the title.. This crap about Pippen turning the tide is what they came up with, and MJ haters have clung to the false story ever since.. Again, MJ was the primary defender on Magic and guarded him in the critical games and spots, which included 3 times as many possessions as Pippen.. It's a completely false story.. Horace was always on Team Sam Smith anyway, and MJ rightfully pointed out that Horace was the snitch in the Last Dance doc.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15015378]He's absolutely right. He should've also been MVP in 1994.[/QUOTE]

what about 1992 FMVP as well?
there was some Pippen Drexler match up?\

[QUOTE=gengiskhan;15015386]what about 1992 FMVP as well?
there was some Pippen Drexler match up?\[/QUOTE]
Sure, you could make the argument for that year as well.

People are getting tired of having MJ on top in every conversation. It's nice to have a different opinion once in a while.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15015378]He's absolutely right. He should've also been MVP in 1994.[/QUOTE]



Congrats on getting in your response before 3 ball. You are quick :applause:

This thread was like the bat signal to screwball.

[QUOTE=gengiskhan;15015386]what about 1992 FMVP as well?
there was some Pippen Drexler match up?\[/QUOTE]



[SIZE=3]The only guys in history to get 3k points and 600 assists in a season [B]and win the title[/B] are MJ in 1992 and SGA this year:[/SIZE]




[INDENT][IMG]https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-09-2025/5Ygdnu.gif[/IMG][/INDENT]



Care to take it back?




[QUOTE=gengiskhan;15015386]what about 1992 FMVP as well?
there was some Pippen Drexler match up?\[/QUOTE]



[B]15 ppg more than all teammates for Playoffs & Finals (carrying the scoring load, aka defeating max defensive attention)[/B]



[INDENT]All of NBA history

Jordan............ 1992, 1993, 1998
Shaq.............. 2000
Wade............. 2006[/INDENT]


Again, care to take it back?

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15015378]He's absolutely right. He should've also been MVP in 1994.[/QUOTE]

Is this a joke or what?

[QUOTE=Gudo;15015394]People are getting tired of having MJ on top in every conversation. It's nice to have a different opinion once in a while.[/QUOTE]

Sure, but there's a reason for that. He was the best player on the team for every series in his Playoff career and has been the undisputed GOAT for a reason, yet people still try to poke holes in his career for engagement bait. The only argument that has any legs is that it's just impossible to replicate his success in today's league because there's just more competition, though I'd argue back that Jordan didn't have the best help around him for the majority of his runs and it's his consistency that just held it all together just long enough for the team to succeed despite the injuries to his teammates and whatever chemistry problems they might've had.

Lebron had the qualities needed to be the GOAT but it just didn't work out for him but people here will never get over it. It has to be that Jordan played against plumbers and that it was easier for him to do what he did in his era, yet Lebron played with as much help as we've ever seen and didn't even come within 1 championship of matching Jordan in 22 years time. He had better longevity and better help and played in a ridiculously weak EC for most of his career and for the most part it was his opponents that had injuries and not him or his teammates.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;15015434]though I'd argue back that Jordan didn't have the best help around him for the majority of his runs and it's his consistency that just held it all together just long enough for the team to succeed despite the injuries to his teammates and whatever chemistry problems they might've had.[/QUOTE]
Jordan always had, for his era, an elite cast around him, on a team that consistently had the best 2nd option in the series and the coaching advantage. The team won 55 games without him for fvcks sake. When did the Bulls ever have a significant injury during their title runs? The worst one was Pippen in the '98 Finals and he still managed to gut out the end of the series.

[QUOTE]and for the most part it was his opponents that had injuries and not him or his teammates.[/QUOTE]
I'm racking my brain and genuinely trying to remember times LeBron's opponents had a significant injury. The only time in 22 years I can think of is Kyrie in 2018. Meanwhile LeBron lost his 2 best teammates in 2015, AD got hurt up 2-1 in the Suns series, Wade was constantly hindered by injury. Those first 2 examples potentially cost him 1-2 titles, so this statement is just patently false in every way.

.
.
[INDENT]
[B]09' Mo Will vs #4 SRS Magic'[/B]'.............. 18 on 38%.......... #3 team defense

[B]89' Pippen' vs #1 SRS Cavs[/B]'................ 15 on 40%........ #11 team defense
[B]96' Pippen' vs #2 SRS Sonics[/B].............. 16 on 34%.......... #1 team defense
[B]97' Pippen' vs #4 SRS Heat[/B]'................ 16 on 39%.......... #4 team defense
[B]98' Pippen' vs #4 SRS Pacers[/B].............. 17 on 39%.......... #9 team defense
[B]98' Pippen' vs #3 SRS Jazz[/B]'................. 16 on 41%.......... #9 team defense

[B]96-98' Pippen entire playoffs[/B]............... 18 on 41%.......... #1, #4, #9 defenses[/INDENT]



Jordan always won with "mo williams" scoring and efficiency from Pippen and worse team defenses than the 09' Cavs had because Jordan could effectively carry the scoring load.

Otoh, Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick, so he never carried weak help over top teams... He also never defeated max defensive attention (never carried the scoring load on the championship level).

Lebron is simply too ball-dominant at high scoring levels to beat top teams.. This inability to carry the "star" category of scoring requires GM's to get more stars and limits defensive help.. Accordingly, Lebron's inability to carry the scoring load prevents elite roster construction, while his "ball-dominator" skillset of turning everyone into spot-up shooter further hampers roster construction.




[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15015441]

[B]Jordan always had, for his era, an elite cast around him[/B].


[/quote]


The stats show that the Bulls had the among the least scoring help in the league and weaker defensive ranking than 5 of 6 opponents in the ECF or Finals of the 1st three-peat (91' Pistons, 91' Lakers, 92' Knicks, 92' Blazers, 93' Knicks).

So you're conclusively wrong - MJ had least scoring help and defensive help of any contender.. This is objective fact.




[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15015441]

[B]Jordan always had the best 2nd option in the series and the coaching advantage[/B].


[/quote]


Phil was a 1st-time nobody coach when MJ won with him in 91', while Pippen had the worst efficiency and clutch of any 90's sidekick.. So Pippen was the biggest lane-clogger and choker of the 90's that forced MJ to overcome packed paints... This is common knowledge.. His jumper was exploitable like Zion's.

Furthermore, guys like Payton, Kemp, Stockton, and Penny were all better than Pippen, while Nance was also better... Schrempf, Rice, X-Man, Juwan Howard, Aguirre and others outplayed him in the playoffs.. Literally everyone outplayed him except opposing SG's that were underperforming against MJ - this is the historical record from series to series.



[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15015441]

[.q The team won 55 games without him for fvcks sake.


[/quote]


Many bad teams win 55 games and the 94' Bulls were no different.. They were the biggest letdown game of all-time - no one gave 2 bird shits about playing them.

History shows that Pippen was never a "franchise player" that was tasked with building a team from scratch - he was simply handed a fully-developed goat dynasty, which he cratered to barely .500 in less than 18 months... Any team with Pippen as the top scorer lacks capacity to add talent because any decent scorer will supplant Pippen as 1st option.. That's why guys like Klay, Pippen or Middleton aren't considered franchise players that teams build around.




[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15015441]

I'm racking my brain and genuinely trying to remember times LeBron's opponents had a significant injury


[/QUOTE]


The 2009 Orlando Magic were missing their all-star point guard and clutch assassin in Jameer Nelson, so Dwight had the injury excuse, but still won.

So Lebron never "ruled the East" because he lost twice in a row as an OKC-level favorite and then fled to form super-teams by putting the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team.. That's why at least half of sports fans think he's a joke.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15015441][B][SIZE=5]Jordan always had, for his era, an elite cast around him[/SIZE][/B], on a team that consistently had the best 2nd option in the series and the coaching advantage. The team won 55 games without him for fvcks sake. When did the Bulls ever have a significant injury during their title runs? The worst one was Pippen in the '98 Finals and he still managed to gut out the end of the series.


I'm racking my brain and genuinely trying to remember times LeBron's opponents had a significant injury. The only time in 22 years I can think of is Kyrie in 2018. Meanwhile LeBron lost his 2 best teammates in 2015, AD got hurt up 2-1 in the Suns series, Wade was constantly hindered by injury. Those first 2 examples potentially cost him 1-2 titles, so this statement is just patently false in every way.[/QUOTE]

Lebron, on the other hand, has always been surrounded by total scrubs. Imagine trying to win when the scrubs you have are Wade, Bosh, Luka, AD, Kyrie, Westbrook, Carmelo, Russell, etc.

And I guess this guy forgot that Bam Adebayo was injured in the 2020 finals, making Miami's second option Duncan Freaking Robinson. :roll:

[QUOTE=ImKobe;15015434]his opponents that had injuries and not him or his teammates.[/QUOTE]


Do tell :lol

[QUOTE=Full Court;15015478]Lebron, on the other hand, has always been surrounded by total scrubs. Imagine trying to win when the scrubs you have are Wade, Bosh, Luka, AD, Kyrie, Westbrook, Carmelo, Russell, etc.

And I guess this guy forgot that Bam Adebayo was injured in the 2020 finals, making Miami's second option Duncan Freaking Robinson. :roll:[/QUOTE]
Bam missed 2 games in that series, one of which the Heat won anyway. So if you want to cling to that and act like that's something notable, esp compared to the injury luck guys like Steph have had, or Giannis & Kawhi when they won, so be it. That's still frankly an absurdly minimal number of examples for a 20+ year career that spans 300 playoff games, proving ImKobe's point was completely wrong.