Is Kobe the best post-up guard since MJ? Who are the top 5 post-up guards all-time?

So, I've recently been watching a lot of 2006-2009 Kobe highlights, and I was particularly impressed by:

a) his scoring diversity
b) his post-up game

He scored in a variety of ways on and off the ball. His Synergy play type statistics were incredibly balanced, in both volume & efficiency. Here's what his MVP season looked like:

[QUOTE][B]Kobe Bryant 2007-08:[/B]

Transition - 3.5 poss - 1.25ppp
P&R BH - 3.9 poss - 0.92ppp
Spot up - 3.2 poss - 1.07ppp
Post ups - 2.6 poss - 1.03ppp
Isolation - 8.3 poss - 0.99ppp
Cutting - 1.05 poss - 1.5ppp
Off screens - 1.3 poss - 1.05ppp
Handoffs - 0.96 poss - 0.83ppp
Misc - 1.23 poss - 0.56ppp[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]2008 Synergy
Isolation - 91st percentile
Pick and roll BH - 92nd percentile
Transition - 82nd percentile
Spot up - 84th percentile
Post up - 96th percentile
Off screen - 91st percentile
Cuts - 94th percentile
Handoffs - 85th percentile
Putbacks - 82nd percentile

2009 Synergy:
Isolation - 90th percentile
Post up - 95th percentile
P and R BH - 88th percentile
Transition - 76th percentile
Spot up - 86th percentile
Misc - 96th percentile
Cut - 91st percentile
Handoffs - 85th percentile
Putbacks - 86th percentile[/QUOTE]

Those numbers are superb considering the era and spacing Bryant was operating in. I think he may have scored more and at greater efficiency than LeBron in the halfcourt, but I can't be sure.

[QUOTE]For players with 1000+ plays (synergy on a bad phone is annoying), in terms of halfcourt ppp

In 2008 he was 14th out of 58 guys

In 2009 he was 7th out of 63 guys

Worth noting some guys above him are play finishers like guys like amare and stuff. His 08 mark is great, but his 09 mark is excellent. For reference, Dirk is 7th in 2008 and 9th in 2009. Above cp3/Wade/lebron as well both years (might be wrong about Wade in 08 but I’m not gonna relook it up lol)

His synergy profile makes him look like a transcendent level 1v1 scorer (seriously, those marks are insane)[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Nov. 23, 2009 - New York Times

According to Synergy, the majority of Bryant’s offense over the last five years originated in isolation plays, ranging from 30 percent to 38 percent. Last season, his most other common areas of scoring were, in order, post-ups, pick-and-rolls and transition baskets.

But those numbers also show that Bryant has become a more efficient player as he has aged. According to Synergy, Bryant attempted 50 percent of his jump shots from 3-point range five seasons ago. That figure dipped to 32 percent last season, but yielded more points per possession (1.08 to 1.01).

Bryant also ranked among the best last season in spot-up jumpers (1.11 points per possession versus .90 five years ago) and in coming off of screens (1.14 in 2008-9, versus .81 in 2004-5 when the Lakers were 34-48).[/QUOTE]

Kobe's on-ball/off-ball, balanced approach reminds me most of Kawhi, KD, Booker, etc in recent years. Here's what 2016-17 looked like for Leonard:

[QUOTE][B]Kawhi Leonard 2016-17:[/B]

Transition - 2.9 poss - 1.33ppp
P&R BH - 5.6 poss - 1.01ppp
Spot up - 4.3 poss - 1.24ppp
Post ups - 1.9 poss - 0.99ppp
Isolation - 2.9 poss - 0.94ppp
Cutting - 0.6 poss - 1.47ppp
Off screens - 1.7 poss - 0.91ppp
Handoffs - 1.4 poss - 1.05ppp
Misc - 0.8 poss - 0.98ppp[/QUOTE]

Ok, so the biggest difference is the isolation volume. It's hard to find a modern player who isolates as much as Kobe did, while also doing all the off-ball stuff. Shai, Harden, and Luka don't have the off-ball activity. I suppose it's got to be KD and, to a lesser extent, Kyrie? I'm not sure. Anyways, onto Kobe's post-up game.

Bryant really began to utilize his post-up game more in 2008-09, per the highlight reel + 3-16 feet FGA:

[QUOTE][B]% of FGAs from 3-16 feet[/B]

2007-08: 21.6%
2008-09: 30.1%
2009-10: 35.3%
2010-11: 38.2%[/QUOTE]

He trained with Hakeem around this time (2009 off-season), but I think that was mainly just PR. Kobe always had great footwork and an effective post game. He just made it more of a priority as he aged/lost athleticism, which is natural.

[QUOTE]Nov. 23, 2009 - New York Times

Probably to Battier’s chagrin, Bryant also visited the former Rockets center Hakeem Olajuwon over the summer for a tutorial on low-post play. They worked for five hours before Bryant left with another aspect to his game.

Sure enough, when the Lakers’ star power forward, Pau Gasol, missed the first 11 games of this season with an injury, 34 percent of Bryant’s offense originated in the post. That number was up from 14 percent a season ago and 8 percent in 2005-6, according to Synergy Sports Technology.

With a smile, Bryant conceded that those post moves were always at his disposal.[/QUOTE]

He could get deep position and score high-percentage baskets within the motion of The Triangle, but his mid-post play was the key.

He could work off the catch or dribble into the post; his footwork, pivots, fakes, and counters were sublime. He had the shooting range and touch to score effectively in the short mid-range area/non-RA paint/roughly 5-15 feet. Could finish with a myriad of shots: fadeaways, floaters, push shots, jump hooks; he could go left or right, and he's one of the only guys in NBA history who could effectively finish with his off-hand. Shout out Dolph Schayes.

[QUOTE]His 2009 PPP in the half-court tops peak Wade, peak LBJ, and peak CP3 (via Synergy)

He's the best post-up guard in the league:

2009:
Garnett:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.993 PPP on 290 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.953 PPP on 254 poss
Pass outs: 1.484 PPP on 31 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 5 poss

Duncan:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.010 PPP on 675 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.982 PPP on 563 poss
Pass outs: 1.250 PPP on 96 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.563 PPP on 16 poss

Dirk:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.998 PPP on 549 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.000 PPP on 454 poss
Pass outs: 1.173 PPP on 75 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.300 PPP on 20 poss


Kobe:
[b]Post-up Derived offense: 1.035 PPP on 340 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.039 PPP on 285 poss
Pass outs: 1.125 PPP on 48 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.286 PPP on 7 poss[/QUOTE]

Kobe was the only guard to lead the NBA in post-up PPP per Synergy:

[QUOTE][B]Top Post-up Scorers [minimum 200 attempts][/B]

2005 - Amar'e Stoudemire (1.037 PPP)
2006 - Elton Brand (1.031 PPP)
2007 - Kevin Garnett (1.059 PPP)
2008 - Chris Bosh (1.052 PPP)
2009 - Pau Gasol (1.034 PPP)
2010 - Chris Bosh (1.093 PPP)
2011 - Dirk Nowitzki (1.149 PPP)
2012 - Carl Landry (1.045 PPP)
2013 - Kobe Bryant (1.050 PPP)
2014 - LeBron James (1.084 PPP)
2015 - Jonas Valanciunas (1.023 PPP)
2016 - Paul Millsap (1.04 PPP)
2017 - Nikola Jokic (1.12 PPP)
2018 - Karl-Anthony Towns (1.02 PPP)
2019 - Joel Embiid (1.05 PPP)
2020 - Joel Embiid (1.10 PPP)
2021 - Joel Embiid (1.08 PPP)
2022 - Nikola Jokic (1.17 PPP)
2023 - Nikola Jokic (1.22 PPP)
2024 - Joel Embiid (1.14 PPP)
2025 - DeMar DeRozan (1.11 PPP)[/QUOTE]

I mean, DeMar [I]technically[/I] plays SF per Basketball Reference. Has for a number of years. He's a good post-up player, but he's not on Kobe's level, IMO. Bryant was a way better and more willing passer out of the post, and had a deeper bag of moves & counters.

I could see prime Kobe doing 1.1+ PPP on big-like volume (3-5 poss/g) in today's game with all the spacing. He has 4 years scoring above 1.0 PPP between 2006-2013. Another two at 0.99 and 0.98. This was when the league average was in the low 0.80s. Higher PPP than Duncan and Garnett most seasons.

This is an offensive element that makes him unique among guards. He's got the isolation game like Shai, the off-ball like Durant (or Booker/Kawhi?), and the post-up like a Siakam or Luka. Not many guards tick all those boxes.

Is Kobe the best post-up guard since MJ? Who are the top 5 post-up guards all-time? Jordan probably has him beat; Dipper 13's tracking had some very good volume and efficiency numbers for prime MJ.

I would think Wade had some good numbers from 05-2012?

Joe Johnson had a dirty midrange post up game.

For me it's clearly Bronny, but I get that Kobe has a case too.

What kind of questions is this? Yes.

You've had skilled guys, athletic guys, guys with fundamentals, but not sure anyone ticked all the boxes like Kobe.

I don't have playoffs Synergy data on hand, but Kobe's 3-16 feet FG% went up in the postseason from 2008-2011 in both volume and efficiency:

[b]Regular season [319 games]:[/b]
(3-10ft): 48.3% FG; 13.2% of FGAs
(10-16ft): 47.5% FG; 18.0% of FGAs
Combined: 47.84% FG on 31.2% of FGAs/6.46 FGAs/game

[b]Playoffs [77 games]:[/b]
(3-10ft): 51.8% FG; 13.0% of FGAs
(10-16ft): 47.2% FG; 19.3% of FGAs
Combined: 49.05% FG on 32.3% of FGAs/7.07 FGAs/game

Consider that the 3-16 feet league average from 2008-2011 was:

2008: (3-10): 40.8% FG; (10-16): 39.1% FG
2009: (3-10): 41.2% FG; (10-16): 39.5% FG
2010: (3-10): 42.1% FG; (10-16): 40.0% FG
2011: (3-10): 39.2% FG; (10-16): 39.8% FG
Combined: (3-10): 40.825% FG; (10-16): 39.6% FG

[b]RELATIVE FG% Regular season:[/b]
(3-10ft): 118.3 FG+
(10-16ft): 120.0 FG+

[b]RELATIVE FG% Playoffs:[/b]
(3-10ft): 127.0 FG+
(10-16ft): 119.2 FG+

League averages for last season (2024-25) were 46.1% (3-10) and 44.3% (10-16). Relatively speaking, here's how Kobe's number would look when adjusted:

[b]2024-25 adjusted FG% Regular season:[/b]
(3-10ft): 54.54% FG
(10-16ft): 53.16% FG

[b]2024-25 adjusted FG% Playoffs:[/b]
(3-10ft): 58.55% FG
(10-16ft): 52.81% FG

I think those numbers are 100% realistic, considering Luka, Brunson, Jokic, KD, etc have done similar. After all, 2008-2011 Kobe was doing those numbers while playing with poor spacing compared to today, and multiple post-up bigs occupying the paint themselves.

[QUOTE=Im Still Ballin;15037207]
I think those numbers are 100% realistic, considering Luka, Brunson, Jokic, KD, etc have done similar. After all, 2008-2011 [b]Kobe was doing those numbers while playing with poor spacing compared to today, and multiple post-up bigs occupying the paint themselves[/b].[/QUOTE]


"Im Still 3Ballin" :yaohappy:

Shaun Livingston if he had more volume. If Livingston never had that terrible injury I would imagine he would be up there with the best of them.

No doubt about it.

Drexler and even little Andrew Toney were pretty unguardable inside when they wanted to be. Penny as well.

Walt Frazier and Oscar might be in that conversation too. And Gary Payton.

But all of them go behind Magic who people often don’t even count for obvious reasons. But he was the most reliable post up guard I’ve seen.

Not the best skills wise but Mark Jackson forced a rule change for his work in the playoffs posting up guys till he finds the open man or he is vlose enough for the hook or teardrop

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15037842]Shaun Livingston if he had more volume. If Livingston never had that terrible injury I would imagine he would be up there with the best of them.[/QUOTE]

shaun's post fades and pull up game was butter.

Luka is better than Kobe there but he doesn’t go down there even close to as much as he should.

Andre Miller