Every 2nd option took over the top dog/1st option role in a series, except Pippen

Tony Parker, Klay, Middleton, etc, and also all the 90's sidekicks like Stockton, Terry Porter, KJ, Penny, Kemp, Dumars, Worthy and even Starks

Ultimately, Pippen was a system player with low peak capability, so the wasn't even on scouting reports, according to Shaq.. This forced MJ to defeat max defensive attention (carry the scoring load).. MJ also had to shoot over packed paints because Pippen's efficiency/spacing was often the worst ever (Pippen had worst-ever shooting splits for a playoff run of 15 games and 35 MPG in 96' and 98' Playoffs)

[QUOTE=3ba11;15043517]Tony Parker, Klay, Middleton, etc, and also all the 90's sidekicks like Stockton, Terry Porter, KJ, Penny, Kemp, Dumars, Worthy and even Starks

Ultimately, Pippen was a system player with low peak capability, so the wasn't even on scouting reports, according to Shaq.. This forced MJ to defeat max defensive attention (carry the scoring load).. MJ also had to shoot over packed paints because Pippen's efficiency/spacing was often the worst ever (Pippen had worst-ever shooting splits for a playoff run of 15 games and 35 MPG in 96' and 98' Playoffs)[/QUOTE]

Yup, I distinctly remember when Vernon Maxwell bailed out Hakeem.

[QUOTE=Duffy Pratt;15043573]Yup, I distinctly remember when Vernon Maxwell bailed out Hakeem.[/QUOTE]


Otis Thorpe was Hakeem's 2nd option and he took over the leading scorer role over Hakeem in a 1990 series:

[url]https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1990-nba-western-conference-first-round-rockets-vs-lakers.html[/url]

Oh and Vernon also averaged more than Hakeem in that series

[QUOTE=3ba11;15043610]Otis Thorpe was Hakeem's 2nd option and he took over the leading scorer role over Hakeem in a 1990 series:

[url]https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1990-nba-western-conference-first-round-rockets-vs-lakers.html[/url]

Oh and Vernon also averaged more than Hakeem in that series[/QUOTE]

OK, though I have my doubts about talking about Hakeem in 90. Now enlighten us on the playoff series where Stockton out scored Malone.

How could he when he's playing with a ball hog that doesn't elevate his teammates his entire career


The one time we saw Pippen as the number one option he managed to lead a depleted Bulls team to 55 wins and almost got them to the conference finals

If he had more time to develop as the number one guy I'm sure he could get you 27/7/7 alongside GOAT perimeter defense

Jackson & MJ prevented Pippen from reaching his full potential

[QUOTE=Duffy Pratt;15043619]OK, though I have my doubts about talking about Hakeem in 90. Now enlighten us on the playoff series where Stockton out scored Malone.[/QUOTE]


You were already proven wrong and now you're flailing

Stockton wasn't the 2nd option either

Stockton still dominated the 97' WCF to carry the Jazz to the Finals, while hitting the historic series walk-off in Barkley's face - so he was "that guy", while Pippen never was... Stockton also outplayed Magic in the 88' Playoffs when the Jazz nearly beat them.. Again,, Pippen never dominated and was [U]always carried in every series[/U] - this is unique to Pippen among 2nd options

Pippen outscored Magic, Isiah, Stockton, Ewing, Price, Zo, Dumars, KJ, Tim Hardaway & Porter h2h while having the biggest ballhog in history on his team. Dude was an amazing player.

How many conference finals did Jordan make without Pippen again...because made it to the
conference finals more than Jordan.

Pippen took over as first option a month before the 1994 season (MJ quit, mentally soft needed rest) and was handed a 6th round scrub who had been out of the league for years, as MJ's replacement in the starting lineup.

Pip proceeds to will his team to 55 wins, a bullshit call away from the ECF, 3rd in MVP voting and All NBA on both sides of the court.

Jordan never came close to achieving the above without Pippen.... FACT!

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15043659]Pippen outscored Magic, Isiah, Stockton, Ewing, Price, Zo, Dumars, KJ, Tim Hardaway & Porter h2h while having the biggest ballhog in history on his team. Dude was an amazing player.[/QUOTE]


All those guys took over the top dog/1st option role in a series, while Pippen never did, so Pippen is the only guy that was carried in every series... Pippen was the only guy that couldn't create his own shot in the halfcourt and needed a system to average 15-20 ppg - [I]this is a statistical fact[/I]- Pippen was mostly a dunker that couldn't reach 15 ppg outside the system... Essentially, when a team really needs a bucket, Pippen is never the option.

Secondly, Pippen is 1 for 4 in outscoring Isiah in a series.. Ditto Dumars and Ewing... The list of stars that outscored him is much larger than the list of stars he outscored.. When we include efficiency, Pippen is easily the worst-scoring star of the 90's, particularly because he was the only "system player" that couldn't reach 15 ppg outside the system (mostly a dunker) - this is why he's the only guy that never took over the 1st option role in a series (never dominated, couldn't "take over")

Thirdly, aside from Ewing and Zo, everyone you listed was a guard that underperformed against MJ in that one particular series... Otherwise, they all peaked much higher than Pippen and were "go-to" dominant players... Terry Porter carried the Blazers to the 92' Finals by averaging 26/4/8 on 53% three-point shooting (6 attempts) in the WCF.. He was basically Damian Lillard, and this was the WEAKEST sidekick that Jordan faced in the Finals (Porter also carried the Blazers to the 90' Finals as well).. Stockton carried the Jazz in the 92' WCF and hit the historic walk-off in Barkley's face.. Stockton's clutch-stats are also Jordan-level - Malone was 2nd fiddle in clutch - this is an obvious statistical fact.. These are all GO-TO players, while Pippen was just a dunker that couldn't reach 15 ppg outside the system.

Btw, the triangle is the most top-heavy offense of all-time that forces the first option to carry the goat scoring load... [i]Due to this fact, GM's build the team without a 3rd scoring option[/i]... The scoring options consist of a 1st option that carries the goat scoring load, and then a 2nd option that barely scrapes 15-20 ppg, and then no other scorers - this matters because the Bulls' opponents had 3rd, 4th and 5th scorers, so their sidekick has to share the load with other scorers... Despite this handicap, they still nearly matched or exceeded Pippen in basically every series with better efficiency, clutch, and 4th quarter scoring.. Pippen was often not even 2nd on the Bulls in 4th quarter scoring.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;15043683]Pippen took over as first option a month before the 1994 season (MJ quit, mentally soft needed rest) and was handed a 6th round scrub who had been out of the league for years, as MJ's replacement in the starting lineup.

Pip proceeds to will his team to 55 wins, a bullshit call away from the ECF, 3rd in MVP voting and All NBA on both sides of the court.

Jordan never came close to achieving the above without Pippen.... FACT![/QUOTE]



Halfway through this clip, Penny states that the 94' Bulls were the biggest letdown game of the year and teams stayed out all night before playing them because "no MJ":


[url]https://m.youtube.com/shorts/2EY7yjROKC4[/url]


So it's all exactly like I've been saying... The "real" Bulls without MJ were barely .500 in 95' before MJ returned..

Pippen was never a "franchise player" that could build a team from scratch - he was simply handed the most well-oiled machine ever and fully-developed dynasty, which he cratered to .500 in less than 18 months..

Again, when a team needs a bucket, Pippen is NEVER the option - even a role player like Kukoc is preferred

None of that refutes the FACTS that I provided above about the 94 season.


Back to your Pippen drawing board, chico.

[QUOTE=3ba11;15043685]All those guys took over the top dog/1st option role in a series, while Pippen never did, so Pippen is the only guy that was carried in every series... Pippen was the only guy that couldn't create his own shot in the halfcourt and needed a system to average 15-20 ppg - [I]this is a statistical fact[/I]- Pippen was mostly a dunker that couldn't reach 15 ppg outside the system... Essentially, when a team really needs a bucket, Pippen is never the option.

Secondly, Pippen is 1 for 4 in outscoring Isiah in a series.. Ditto Dumars and Ewing... The list of stars that outscored him is much larger than the list of stars he outscored.. When we include efficiency, Pippen is easily the worst-scoring star of the 90's, particularly because he was the only "system player" that couldn't reach 15 ppg outside the system (mostly a dunker) - this is why he's the only guy that never took over the 1st option role in a series (never dominated, couldn't "take over")

Thirdly, aside from Ewing and Zo, everyone you listed was a guard that underperformed against MJ in that one particular series... Otherwise, they all peaked much higher than Pippen and were "go-to" dominant players... Terry Porter carried the Blazers to the 92' Finals by averaging 26/4/8 on 53% three-point shooting (6 attempts) in the WCF.. He was basically Damian Lillard, and this was the WEAKEST sidekick that Jordan faced in the Finals (Porter also carried the Blazers to the 90' Finals as well).. Stockton carried the Jazz in the 92' WCF and hit the historic walk-off in Barkley's face.. Stockton's clutch-stats are also Jordan-level - Malone was 2nd fiddle in clutch - this is an obvious statistical fact.. These are all GO-TO players, while Pippen was just a dunker that couldn't reach 15 ppg outside the system.

Btw, the triangle is the most top-heavy offense of all-time that forces the first option to carry the goat scoring load... [i]Due to this fact, GM's build the team without a 3rd scoring option[/i]... The scoring options consist of a 1st option that carries the goat scoring load, and then a 2nd option that barely scrapes 15-20 ppg, and then no other scorers - this matters because the Bulls' opponents had 3rd, 4th and 5th scorers, so their sidekick has to share the load with other scorers... Despite this handicap, they still nearly matched or exceeded Pippen in basically every series with better efficiency, clutch, and 4th quarter scoring.. Pippen was often not even 2nd on the Bulls in 4th quarter scoring.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]https://c.tenor.com/PLCroit80ccAAAAd/tenor.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;15043688]None of that refutes the FACTS that I provided above about the 94 season.


Back to your Pippen drawing board, chico.[/QUOTE]


Penny isn't lying - it's a fact that everyone stayed out all night before playing the 94' Bulls.. So the 55 wins doesn't represent a team that Pippen built/developed/sustained - it was an obvious fluke and crashed to earth real quick

MJ replaced with a scrub = 55 wins

When LeBron left Cleveland in 2010... it took the Cavs 2+ seasons (213gms) to win 55gms

:roll: