-
Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
I want to know people's opinion on this because a lot of people overlook Shaq and simply think he is a good basketball player due to his size. I mean the guy has:
4 championships
Named ROY (Rookie of Year) (1993)
Named All-NBA First Rookie Team (1993)
Named MVP (Most Valuable Player) NBA Regular Season (2000)
Named All-NBA First Team (1998, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006)
Named All-NBA Second Team (1995, 1999)
Named All-NBA Third Team (1994, 1996, 1997)
Named MVP (Most Valuable Player) NBA Finals (2000, 2001, 2002)
Named All-NBA Second Defensive Team (2000, 2001, 2003)
Named IBM Award (2000, 2001)
Named NBA Top Scorer (1995, 2000)
Named NBA Best Field Goal Percentage (1994, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006)
2 times MVP NBA All-Star (2000, 2004)
Selected 14 times for the NBA All-Star game
3 of the greatest finals performances ever
25.2ppg, 11.5rpg, 2.7apg, 2.5bpg and 58% fg in the regular season.
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
I'd rank him just below the immortal six. You could make an argument for him as a top 5 of all time, depending on how you view his impact as opposed to Bill Russell. I think KAJ has the edge on him due to sheer longevity and virtually the same stats and wins, Wilt on pure statistical viewpoint, Magic and Bird in terms of impact to the game. Of course you have MJ.
You won't find me protesting though, if someone ranks him a top 5 all time.
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=Collie]I'd rank him just below the immortal six. You could make an argument for him as a top 5 of all time, depending on how you view his impact as opposed to Bill Russell. I think KAJ has the edge on him due to sheer longevity and virtually the same stats and wins, Wilt on pure statistical viewpoint, Magic and Bird in terms of impact to the game. Of course you have MJ.
You won't find me protesting though, if someone ranks him a top 5 all time.[/QUOTE]
i agree with this, he's the best post-jordan (**** all the Tim Duncan homers) and he is the last person 2 beat jordan in a post-season series. very good player, u could easily put him in the top 5, but there are so many great NBA players that he is overlooked.
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=Collie]I'd rank him just below the immortal six. You could make an argument for him as a top 5 of all time, depending on how you view his impact as opposed to Bill Russell. I think KAJ has the edge on him due to sheer longevity and virtually the same stats and wins, Wilt on pure statistical viewpoint, Magic and Bird in terms of impact to the game. Of course you have MJ.
You won't find me protesting though, if someone ranks him a top 5 all time.[/QUOTE]
Agreed, though really I think he should be a lock.
Wilt is beyond overrated. All he has is his stats, he wasn't a winner. Shaq had everything in terms of the perfect centre. Plus he has more accomplishments then a guy like Bird, even though Bird was surrounded by more talent.
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
thing is bird brought back the game of basketball.
and he's white
and good.
so we have to put him there u know
*please don't take this as racist*
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
I think the most compelling argument you can make for him being top 5 is that in his prime, he was surpassed by no one and matched only by MJ, Kareem and Wilt. He's arguably the best finals performer ever as well.
To me, he is top 6 for sure, with Kareem, MJ, Wilt, Magic and Bird.
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
I don't understand how people put Wilt in their top 5. There is a double standard it seems for Wilt. When talking about greatness and where a player ranks, people always say he needs to be dominant; which is what Wilt was but also be a winner and have many championships, etc; which is something Wilt doesn't have.
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
Doesn't Wilt also have like 3 championships? Only 1 less than Shaq, and Wilt was by far the MDE.
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=plowking]I don't understand how people put Wilt in their top 5. There is a double standard it seems for Wilt. When talking about greatness and where a player ranks, people always say he needs to be dominant; which is what Wilt was but also be a winner and have many championships, etc; which is something Wilt doesn't have.[/QUOTE]
True, but noone can touch his statistics.
There isn
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]Doesn't Wilt also have like 3 championships? Only 1 less than Shaq, and Wilt was by far the MDE.[/QUOTE]
2 and only 1 as the best player I believe.
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
Championships are overrated. And underrated.
People have the nerve to call Stockton and Malone loser i e when they were winners for every season they played and went far into the playoffs on numerous occasions while being contenders damn near every year. A loser is someone like Ricky Davis or Shareef who puts up stats on losing teams and never gets anywhere in their respective careers.
You wanna know who
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=biisak][B]Championships are overrated.[/B] And underrated.
People have the nerve to call Stockton and Malone loser i e when they were winners for every season they played and went far into the playoffs on numerous occasions while being contenders damn near every year. A loser is someone like Ricky Davis or Shareef who puts up stats on losing teams and never gets anywhere in their respective careers.
You wanna know who
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=Collie]I'd rank him just below the immortal six. You could make an argument for him as a top 5 of all time, depending on how you view his impact as opposed to Bill Russell. I think KAJ has the edge on him due to sheer longevity and virtually the same stats and wins, Wilt on pure statistical viewpoint, Magic and Bird in terms of impact to the game. Of course you have MJ.
You won't find me protesting though, if someone ranks him a top 5 all time.[/QUOTE]
That's where I have him too, clumped in with Hakeem, Duncan, and Malone. Of that group, I think he's got the highest peak, which makes him a little hard to guage. The thing that I think will affect his legacy is the lone MVP. It sort of reflects his turn it on/ turn it off approach, which I know belies questions about his drive.
The top six are the only guys with multiple MVPs, and multiple titles, along with Duncan, and probably Mikan, who for me is almost playing another sport. It's not a terribly deep way to look at it, but it is an interesting seperation on players who are nearly universally regarded as the top six.
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=Thorpesaurous]That's where I have him too, clumped in with Hakeem, Duncan, and Malone. Of that group, I think he's got the highest peak, which makes him a little hard to guage. The thing that I think will affect his legacy is the lone MVP. It sort of reflects his turn it on/ turn it off approach, which I know belies questions about his drive.
The top six are the only guys with multiple MVPs, and multiple titles, along with Duncan, and probably Mikan, who for me is almost playing another sport. It's not a terribly deep way to look at it, but it is an interesting seperation on players who are nearly universally regarded as the top six.[/QUOTE]
Co Sign. He could go anywhere between 4 - 8 depending on your preference of other prominent centers. But he did have a huge impact on the game when he entered the league off of physical presence alone. His biggest downfall will always be his work ethic and desire to play a fully motivated season in shape. He cost himself like 2 potential championships because of this.
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
he's definitely a top 5 center.
probably top 10 player all-time. in my mind, he's remarkable lack of professionalism knocks him down the all-time list.
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=bleedinpurpleTwo]he's definitely a top 5 center.
probably top 10 player all-time. in my mind, he's remarkable lack of professionalism knocks him down the all-time list.[/QUOTE]
I never understood that. We usually judge how great a player is by his skillset, impact, and achievements right? His lack of professionalism or attitude usually has an effect on those things, so he probably could've been better and achieved more if it wasn't for that. So when people penalize him for that, you're basically penalizing him TWICE in a way.
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
in terms of overall game impact, shaq is top 5.
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=guy]I never understood that. We usually judge how great a player is by his skillset, impact, and achievements right? His lack of professionalism or attitude usually has an effect on those things, so he probably could've been better and achieved more if it wasn't for that. So when people penalize him for that, you're basically penalizing him TWICE in a way.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. Do we knock on Jordan because he punched his teammate in the face? Absolutely not, shouldn't happen to Shaq either.
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=plowking]Agreed. Do we knock on Jordan because he punched his teammate in the face? Absolutely not, shouldn't happen to Shaq either.[/QUOTE]
Another thing, guys like Jordan and Kareem were considered a**holes by a lot of people when they played, but it wasn't that big of a deal cause it wasn't publicized in the media as much back then. If Shaq played 10-20 years before, we wouldn't even be talking about this stuff, so is it really fair to hold that against him?
And another thing is we never ever give credit to a player's greatness for having great professionalism/work ethic, so why should we discredit anyone for their lack of it? David Robinson is someone that had great work ethic, and is considered to have great professionalism. He never had problems with anyone and he was a very loyal player. But when we talk about his greatness we don't talk about that stuff. We talk about how he was a dominant scorer, rebounder, and defender, his 1 MVP, and his 2 championships, and we basically leave it at that.
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
He can't enter top 5 because:
1) Old school basketball fans are still alive. They hate modern basketball and love short shorts. True dat...
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=guy]I never understood that. We usually judge how great a player is by his skillset, impact, and achievements right? His lack of professionalism or attitude usually has an effect on those things, so he probably could've been better and achieved more if it wasn't for that. So when people penalize him for that, you're basically penalizing him TWICE in a way.[/QUOTE]
not really. I dont think people really take into account being out-of-shape when they assess his "dominance". Indeed, look at the OP for example. For me, I take his on-court greatness/dominance/impact and then subtract for certain things.
Michael Jordan would have NEVER said, "I hurt my toe and company time, so I will fix it on company time". And even if he would say that, I dont believe MJ would actually DO that. Shaq actually did that.
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=plowking]Agreed. Do we knock on Jordan because he punched his teammate in the face? Absolutely not, shouldn't happen to Shaq either.[/QUOTE]
see prior post.
Has less to do with punching a teammate as opposed to showing up out of shape, "fixing toe on company time", etc etc
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Tim Duncan
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=clayton]He can't enter top 5 because:
1) Old school basketball fans are still alive. They hate modern basketball and love short shorts. True dat...[/QUOTE]
Best posts so far in this thread, and I think Shaq is definitely a top 8 best players of all time.
One of the most dominating Finals performance in the history of the NBA.
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=plowking]Tell that to players who don't have one.[/QUOTE]
Yeah? Im sure darko or scalabrine (both nba champions) are real proud of their rings.
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=bleedinpurpleTwo]not really. I dont think people really take into account being out-of-shape when they assess his "dominance". Indeed, look at the OP for example. For me, I take his on-court greatness/dominance/impact and then subtract for certain things.[/QUOTE]
In a way they do, cause he would've been even more dominant if he wasn't out-of-shape and alot of people like myself would probably rank him even higher as a result. If he stayed in better shape the dominance he had with the Lakers he might've had with the Heat, and he might still be a 20-10 player today. Wouldn't you rank him higher as a result and consider him even more dominant as a result. Shaq penalizes his own greatness by being out of shape by not being able to achieve as much as a result.
[QUOTE=bleedinpurpleTwo]
Michael Jordan would have NEVER said, "I hurt my toe and company time, so I will fix it on company time". And even if he would say that, I dont believe MJ would actually DO that. Shaq actually did that.[/QUOTE]
Even if he said that, what does that have to do with what he does on the court? And maybe if he didn't DO that, the Lakers would've had a greater record, had HCA against the Spurs, and won the title for the 4th straight year or at least gone further in the playoffs. My point is we're already penalizing him for less success which could've been a result of his work ethic, so why should we penalize him even more?
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
In his prime, Shaq was so insanely dominant that only Patrick Ewing and Hakeem came close to slowing him down. And they only came close. His last couple of seasons in Orlando and his first two in LA were RIDICULOUS! He's definitely in my top 10.
I've got a couple of gripes in that even when he saw that he was slowing down, he didn't develop an long hook or a jumper or something else to make up for his lost speed and explosiveness, and that he was a crappy free throw shooter his entire career. How dominant are you if you can force the other coach to sit you at crunch time?
Otherwise, the guy is clearly in the top 5 centers of all time (I've got him 4th) and in the top ten players of all time.
Though I do think the guy is a raging *******, and I'm glad that's been exposed in the last couple of years. And I did take a perverse joy in seeing him fail to advance in the playoffs last year.
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
He has a case. He's generally considered top 4-9 among most fans. Too dominant 2000-02 Finals. I usually put him somewhere in #7, a position that would be higher if
1) he wasn't getting injured as much as he did (for a season, I'll take a guy who plays 80 games and is 90% as good as Shaq instead of a 55-60 game Shaq)
2) he had the defensive impact of a guy like Hakeem
3) he won his titles against stronger individual competition.
[QUOTE]I don't understand how people put Wilt in their top 5. There is a double standard it seems for Wilt. When talking about greatness and where a player ranks, people always say he needs to be dominant; which is what Wilt was but also be a winner and have many championships, etc; which is something Wilt doesn't have.[/QUOTE]
I don't understand how anyone could leave him out of the top-5. Even if he had won 0 titles, he'd still rank among the greatest, thanks to his unsurpassed dominance on the game. After all, people were starting making GOAT claims for Jordan even after his first title (even more often after his second). Shaq was called the GOAT center by some after the 2000 Finals. Both by then had won less than Wilt did. So, if players who had played only for 7-8 years and hadn't matched Wilt's winning either had a claim, then Wilt does for sure.
When Wilt spent his prime, no-one except Boston was winning. So, if Wilt was branded a loser, because of not managing to win championships so should West, Baylor, Oscar, Willis Reed before '70, practically anyone not playing for Boston.
BTW, Wilt was the best player in both teams he won the championship. In 1967, it was a no-brainer. In 1972, you may argue either him or West for the regular season, but West had the worst playoffs of hs career, while Wilt was the Finals' MVP.
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[quote=plowking]I want to know people's opinion on this because a lot of people overlook Shaq and simply think he is a good basketball player due to his size. I mean the guy has:
4 championships
Named ROY (Rookie of Year) (1993)
Named All-NBA First Rookie Team (1993)
Named MVP (Most Valuable Player) NBA Regular Season (2000)
Named All-NBA First Team (1998, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006)
Named All-NBA Second Team (1995, 1999)
Named All-NBA Third Team (1994, 1996, 1997)
Named MVP (Most Valuable Player) NBA Finals (2000, 2001, 2002)
Named All-NBA Second Defensive Team (2000, 2001, 2003)
Named IBM Award (2000, 2001)
Named NBA Top Scorer (1995, 2000)
Named NBA Best Field Goal Percentage (1994, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006)
2 times MVP NBA All-Star (2000, 2004)
Selected 14 times for the NBA All-Star game
3 of the greatest finals performances ever
25.2ppg, 11.5rpg, 2.7apg, 2.5bpg and 58% fg in the regular season.[/quote]
Not to mention in his championship runs he proved he was one of the greatest clutch performers of all time.
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[quote=bleedinpurpleTwo]he's definitely a top 5 center.
probably top 10 player all-time. in my mind, [B]he's remarkable lack of professionalism knocks him down the all-time list[/B].[/quote]
Give an example strong enough that should knock a man down this list. Dis raps against Kobe do not count.
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=plowking]
Named IBM Award (2000, 2001)
[/QUOTE]
BTW, what the hell is that?
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=Godfather]Give an example strong enough that should knock a man down this list. Dis raps against Kobe do not count.[/QUOTE]
waiting the entire off season to address a medical issue. then when asked about it, said "I got hurt on company time, I can heal on company time". Maybe if you worked year round, but since you have 3-5 months of offseason every year.... very unprofessional.
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[quote=boozehound]waiting the entire off season to address a medical issue. then when asked about it, said "I got hurt on company time, I can heal on company time". Maybe if you worked year round, but since you have 3-5 months of offseason every year.... very unprofessional.[/quote]
And that is enough to drop him spots on the all time list...GTFO hater.
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=Godfather]And that is enough to drop him spots on the all time list...GTFO hater.[/QUOTE]
absolutely. remarkably unprofessional. to miss the 1st half of the season that way? regular season records do, in fact, mean something. home court is very important in the NBA. plus, it shows very poor leadership.
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[quote=bleedinpurpleTwo]absolutely. remarkably unprofessional. to miss the 1st half of the season that way? regular season records do, in fact, mean something. home court is very important in the NBA. plus, it shows very poor leadership.[/quote]
Yeah and then he won 3 straight titles for the Lakers, as the leader and most dominant player...by far.
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=Godfather]Yeah and then he won 3 straight titles for the Lakers, as the leader and most dominant player...by far.[/QUOTE]
no. the titles came before the big toe.
but that doesnt matter. regardless, it reflects upon his professionalism, or lack thereof.
can a player do ANYTHING as long as he wins championships?
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=bleedinpurpleTwo]
can a player do ANYTHING as long as he wins championships?[/QUOTE]
LOL, yea I believe they can if thats the case. All that matters is what they does on the court. Like I said, his unprofessionalism in 2003 played a great deal in ending that dynasty. Maybe they win a title if it wasn't for that, which means he would probably be ranked higher with another title. So like I said, we're already penalizing him due to his unprofessionalism.
I just think this argument that only seems to be attached to Shaq is pretty ridiculous. Lets be serious, Shaq had all the tools to win even more championships, MVPs, scoring titles, etc, which would've made him the GOAT, but his work ethic and attitude is probably what stopped that from happening. He's already penalized for it in that sense, so I don't see why we should penalize him even more.
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=Psileas]He has a case. He's generally considered top 4-9 among most fans. Too dominant 2000-02 Finals. I usually put him somewhere in #7, a position that would be higher if
1) he wasn't getting injured as much as he did (for a season, I'll take a guy who plays 80 games and is 90% as good as Shaq instead of a 55-60 game Shaq)
2) he had the defensive impact of a guy like Hakeem
3) he won his titles against stronger individual competition.
I don't understand how anyone could leave him out of the top-5. Even if he had won 0 titles, he'd still rank among the greatest, [B]thanks to his unsurpassed dominance on the game[/B]. After all, people were starting making GOAT claims for Jordan even after his first title (even more often after his second). Shaq was called the GOAT center by some after the 2000 Finals. Both by then had won less than Wilt did. So, if players who had played only for 7-8 years and hadn't matched Wilt's winning either had a claim, then Wilt does for sure.
When Wilt spent his prime, no-one except Boston was winning. So, if Wilt was branded a loser, because of not managing to win championships so should West, Baylor, Oscar, Willis Reed before '70, practically anyone not playing for Boston.
BTW, Wilt was the best player in both teams he won the championship. In 1967, it was a no-brainer. In 1972, you may argue either him or West for the regular season, but West had the worst playoffs of hs career, while Wilt was the Finals' MVP.[/QUOTE]
You mean the dominance that gave him 0 titles in his prime? He was only able to win later on in his career where he was on a stacked team.
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=plowking]You mean the dominance that gave him 0 titles in his prime? He was only able to win later on in his career where he was on a stacked team.[/QUOTE] To give you rough idea, imagine a playoff series with Kobe & 2006 Lakers vs the East All Star team (with everyone in prime). That is what it was like for Wilt and the Warriors/Sixers to play against Bill Russell's Celtics. At that time everyone in the NBA was building their team to take down Celtics.:applause:
-
Re: Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?
[QUOTE=Scott Pippen]To give you rough idea, imagine a playoff series with Kobe & 2006 Lakers vs the East All Star team (with everyone in prime). That is what it was like for Wilt and the Warriors/Sixers to play against Bill Russell's Celtics. At that time everyone in the NBA was building their team to take down Celtics.:applause:[/QUOTE]
Less teams to compete with at the time. You're acting as if every team was a pushover in Shaq's time as well.