Felton vs. Norman (The Chamberlain\Russell Thread)

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[I][B]Russell shuts down Chamberlain holds him to just 38 ppg[/B][/I]

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOZpMZ5rAc8"]Russell Talk about Wilt, their friendship, their era and their battles.[/URL]

[IMG]http://www.nelsonguirado.com/media/blogs/asymmetric/wilt.gif[/IMG]

[I][B]Bill owns Chamberlain so much he eats his Moms food and Sleeps in Wilts Bed..[/B][/I].

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CqQ4x3klT4&feature=related"]
Wilt on Russell: The Video Russell Mentioned[/URL]

[IMG]http://images.dailyradar.com/media/uploads/ballhype/story_large/2009/08/03/bill_russell_and_wilt_chamberlain_photograph_c130.jpeg[/IMG]

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpABZqq9PxQ&feature=related"]Russell's Take on the Same Things[/URL]

[IMG]http://farm1.static.flickr.com/17/20043052_68b3faa092.jpg[/IMG]

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DZMw_B8srw&feature=PlayList&p=EED4487773731D99&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=71"]1964 NBA Finals Game Four[/URL]

[I](7 Parts all listed to the right.)[/I]

[IMG]http://angrycelticsfans.com/Bill_Russell_vs_Wilt_Chamberlain_1970.jpg[/IMG]

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ku_9_lxx3-0&feature=related"]Wilt talks about the Celtics and beating them in 1967 with Philly. [/URL]

[IMG]http://www.sportsmemorabilia.com/files/cache/wilt-chamberlain-bill-russell-8x10-photo_3666d6391c227b296a80f292c53e58dc.jpg[/IMG]

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eIE5cznPS8&feature=PlayList&p=E3C433CF163B3EDD&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=35"]Russell and Chamberlain Interviewed Together by Bob Costas[/URL]

[IMG]http://www.achievement.org/achievers/rus0/large/rus0-013.jpg[/IMG]

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2iR470UVh4&feature=related"]The Beginning of Russell vs. Chamberlain and Beyond[/URL]

[IMG]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3572/3443995196_8c62d783aa.jpg[/IMG]

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UsLn9IjEhc"]Classic Confrontations Wilt vs. Russell[/URL]

[IMG]http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/multimedia/photo_gallery/0807/greatest.individual.rivalries/images/wilt-chamberlain-bill-russell.jpg[/IMG]

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWNzHgG94XM"]
1967 ECF Wilt's 76ers and Russell's Celtics:: Game 4[/URL]
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=1967+ECF&search_type=&aq=f"]
Playlist - 5 Parts[/URL]

[IMG]http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0905/this.day.sports.history.may26/images/chamberlain-russell.jpg[/IMG]

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[size=4][B]Links to Other Wilt and Russell Threads (Please merge mods or admin) [/B][/size]

[URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=153453"]Bill Russell vs. Wilt Chamberlain[/URL]

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Bump: Got lost in the Weekend Clutter

[B]No thoughts on the two greatest Big Men ever[/B] or reaction to the the videos or game links included in this thread?[/QUOTE]

My only thought is that the bolded statement is incorrect. Kareem is number 1 and either Shaq or Wilt is number 2.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]
[IMG]http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/multimedia/photo_gallery/0807/greatest.individual.rivalries/images/wilt-chamberlain-bill-russell.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Funny that they were already saying that in 1988.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]My only thought is that the bolded statement is incorrect. Kareem is number 1 and either Shaq or Wilt is number 2.[/QUOTE]
I agree. And it's Kareem and Wilt for sure. Russell and O'Neal and Hakeem are all pretty close to each other.

[QUOTE=GP_20]I agree. And it's Kareem and Wilt for sure. Russell and O'Neal and Hakeem are all pretty close to each other.[/QUOTE]

I disagree, Shaq and Wilt are right there with eachother in my opinion. I alternate them all the time, I can't really decide between them.

C'mon you two, obviously that's not the point of this thread and if you're both too stubbrun to acknowledge that there is an equally (if not more) valid argument for Russ and Wilt over any other two centers ever than there is no reason to ever talk to either of you about hoops.

In the interview with Payton, Webber and Steve Smith Russell says "It's more important to Understand than to be understood"

Advice you both need to bear in mind going forward if you ever want to get smarter and not just convince other people how smart you think you are.

I'd love to hear a valid argument for Russell over Kareem or Shaq other than 11 rings.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]I'd love to hear a valid argument for Russell over Kareem or Shaq other than 11 rings.[/QUOTE]

That's all you need, if you don't understand that do some homework.

But I'd say 5 MVP's and constantly being in the top four his entire career is pretty good.

Also second most rebounds ever and would easily have the most blocks if it was a stat

Highest APG in the postseason ever for a center

More top 10 assist finishes in the season than any other center

watch the videos do some homework and get back to me.

Going forward I'd really like to turn this discussion away from all players except Wilt and Russ for the the sake of the thread.

Russell was the better 5 on 5 player and Wilt was the better 1 on 1 player. How many players does a game of basketball consist of? 5 Correct? So Russell is the better choice for me. Now you factor in the awards, accolades and the championships. It becomes clear who's better....Russell.

Something Coach Herm Edwards said.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMk5sMHj58I[/url]

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]I'd love to hear a valid argument for Russell over Kareem or Shaq other than 11 rings.[/QUOTE]

The thing is you just can't ignore Russell's 11 rings. Not to mention he does have 5 NBA MVPs. The fact that Russell won the NBA MVP in 1962 in a landslide considering Wilt averaged 50 PPG & Oscar Robertson averaged a triple double that year just tells you how good he was. I'm not saying Russell was a better player than Kareem or Chamberlain, but an argument can definitely be made.

[U]Top 5 Centers in NBA History[/U]
1. Kareem
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Shaq
5. Hakeem

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]That's all you need, if you don't understand that do some homework.

But I'd say 5 MVP's and constantly being in the top four his entire career is pretty good.

Also second most rebounds ever and would easily have the most blocks if it was a stat

Highest APG in the postseason ever for a center

More top 10 assist finishes in the season than any other center

watch the videos do some homework and get back to me.

Going forward I'd really like to turn this discussion away from all players except Wilt and Russ for the the sake of the thread.[/QUOTE]

I did watch the videos and from watching them it seemed laughable to suggest Russell was better than Shaq and Kareem who truly dominated. He can have all of the assist numbers in the world, but he was not a better passer than Shaq or Kareem. Both were capable of more difficult passes from what I saw and because of their scoring ability, they drew far more double teams.

Then we have scoring which is what makes the comparison laughable. Shaq and Kareem were hands down top 3 scorers at their position and truly unstoppable. Russell was not even a top 20 scorer.

Russell has the edge as far as defense, but consider the huge advantage that guys like Ben Wallace and Mutombo have over guys like Daugherty and Yao defensively. But not one GM would take the former over the latter. Hell, you have a guy like Zo who was one of the best defenders ever and a great scorer himself(20-23 ppg), but no GM is taking him over Shaq. The bottom line is it's easier to build around a great low post scorer who is still a defensive presence than a great defender who is merely good offensively.

Russell won 11 titles with 1/4 the amount of teams and he played on a stacked team that is far beyond anything Shaq played with or even Kareem during his actualy pime('70-'80).

Despite Russell's pace advantage(which is the main reason for his rebounding and assist advantage) Shaq and Kareem are still more impressive statistically and both won a ton of titles themselves. Hell, Kareem won more MVP's than Russell as well.

They played over 160+ times I believe.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]They played over 160+ times I believe.[/QUOTE]

Basically every year in the 1960's they had a playoff series, plus they used to play each team 7-12 times a year. So it wouldn't be entirely impossible.

I'll never understand how so many people can see a guy like Russell who comes to a franchise with no rings, wins his rookie year then 9 of the next 11 years watches ever player on the team when he got there leave and be replaced, than wins in his last season and then the next season his team misses the playoffs for the first time since he got there.

The goal of the game is to win titles. Russell won more, by far than any other superstar ever. He was more MVP's than his contemporary Wilt who put up better numbers than any player ever and it's not even close, Wilt admits that it was because of Russell the Celtics won the titles and that with him in Bill's place they'd not have won as many or even close and still people want to argue about his greatness because he didn't score as much.

Newsflash, he didn't need to or want to. He understood that the team as a whole plays better when each player could stick to their greatest strengths and he made that happen.

Russell is the Greatest center ever and to me it's not debatable. That said, I can see the arguments for others, but I've yet to hear anyone on here make anything close to a valid argument.

Just a lot of people citing stats and showing how little they know and are willing to learn about the NBA before 1980.

Again, the goal is to win anyway you can, the Celtics were not a dramatically better team at any point than their competition, yet everyone says how stacked they were. Numerous teams have had better players and every superstar in the history of the NBA has had a better cast than Russell in '68 and '69 and yet few if any carried their teams to titles.

Russell was the Coach while he was an MVP candidate, imagine how insane that is.

He was the first Black coach to win a title in any major sport, the first Black coach period in the NBA. The first Black MVP, the reason they created the All-Defensive Team and the guy who the NBA Championship Trophy is named after. He's Jackie Robinson, Babe Ruth, The Heisman and the Cy Young wrapped in one athlete.

The greatest winner ever in a business where the bottom line is winning.

Kids...

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]
Russell is the Greatest center ever and to me it's not debatable. That said, I can see the arguments for others, but I've yet to hear anyone on here make anything close to a valid argument.
[/QUOTE]

That's fine and to me it's the exact opposite. I haven't seen a valid argument for him being the greatest. Great player and defintley top 10 all time, but to compare rings with Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem ect. is unfair considering the situation.

A little off topic but an interesting little factoid;

I've heard people say 1000 times that Wilt dominated because there were no other tall centers in the league back then (aside from Russell), basically saying he was a giant for his time. I did a little research and in Wilt's era the average height for a center was 6'11. Last season the average height was 6'10. It turns out human beings haven't evolved a whole lot in 50 years despite people's misconceptions.
:hammerhead:

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]I disagree, Shaq and Wilt are right there with eachother in my opinion. I alternate them all the time, I can't really decide between them.[/QUOTE]
Yeah it's definitely still close. You're a smart poster, most of what you say is right. But there are small things that make the separation line clear.
[QUOTE=G.O.A.T.]
Russell is the Greatest center ever and to me it's not debatable. That said, I can see the arguments for others, but I've yet to hear anyone on here make anything close to a valid argument.[/QUOTE]

Please tell me he did not just say that. I haven't seen any close to valid argument for Russell over Wilt.

[QUOTE=GP_20]
Please tell me he did not just say that. I haven't seen any close to valid argument for Russell over Wilt.[/QUOTE]

That's because you're an idiot though. Also stay out of my threads at all times, if I can't have you on ignore you owe me that as a moderator, even if it is of a different forum.

I don't ever want to hear your opinions on anything; don't ever respond to me, the previous post and all after will be reported.

[QUOTE=MMKM]A little off topic but an interesting little factoid;

I've heard people say 1000 times that Wilt dominated because there were no other tall centers in the league back then (aside from Russell), basically saying he was a giant for his time. I did a little research and in Wilt's era the average height for a center was 6'11. Last season the average height was 6'10. It turns out human beings haven't evolved a whole lot in 50 years despite people's misconceptions.
:hammerhead:[/QUOTE]

Great point about height, a common misconception, it's was Wilt's athleticism that separated him much more than his 2 or 3 inch height advantage he usually had.

The evolution is more in terms of explosiveness. Athletes today are more explosive because of the training, supplementation and nutritional advances. Also the style taught and portrayed is a more athletic one.

Can we get a merger here...

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIc73FUXVF0"]Bill Russell against Wilt Chamberlain[/URL]

[QUOTE=Abraham Lincoln][URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIc73FUXVF0"]Bill Russell against Wilt Chamberlain[/URL][/QUOTE]

THE greatest rivalry in Sports HISTORY!!!!!!

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]I'd love to hear a valid argument for Russell over Kareem or Shaq other than 11 rings.[/QUOTE]


There isn't one honestly. BUT as we all know with championships(no matter how good you are as an individual) people begin to view you differently. Just like JOE DUMARS being a 1st/2nd ballot HOF'er ,but ;Adrian Dantley waiting nearly two decades, Gilmore still not in:mad: ,etc....( Just imagine Gilmore playing with Magic & winning titles in the 80's. He would have been no doubt a first ballot HOF'er)

One commentator pointed this out after the Pistons beat the Lakers in '04. There is no way in hell that 4 time DPOY was better than Shaq individually(just as Wilt>Russell) ,but his TEAM won. Just imagine if Wallace & the Pistons won 4 or 5 titles during their impressive run(6 straight ECF ?/2 NBA finals/1 championship). Would people suggest their defensive anchor/heart & soul was the best Center in the League?

I AM NOT SAYING WALLACE is as good as Russell just making an analogy.

I must admit that Russell won every place he went & revolutionized defensive strategy. Although someone said they went from Champions to NO PLAYOFFS the year immediately after Russell retired they forget that the great Sam Jones retired also.

[QUOTE=32jazz]There isn't one honestly. BUT as we all know with championships(no matter how good you are as an individual) people begin to view you differently. Just like JOE DUMARS being a 1st/2nd ballot HOF'er ,but ;Adrian Dantley waiting nearly two decades, Gilmore still not in:mad: ,etc....( Just imagine Gilmore playing with Magic & winning titles in the 80's. He would have been no doubt a first ballot HOF'er)

One commentator pointed this out after the Pistons beat the Lakers in '04. There is no way in hell that 4 time DPOY was better than Shaq individually(just as Wilt>Russell) ,but his TEAM won. Just imagine if Wallace & the Pistons won 4 or 5 titles during their impressive run(6 straight ECF ?/2 NBA finals/1 championship). Would people suggest their defensive anchor/heart & soul was the best Center in the League?

I AM NOT SAYING WALLACE is as good as Russell just making an analogy.

I must admit that Russell won every place he went & revolutionized defensive strategy. Although someone said they went from Champions to NO PLAYOFFS the year immediately after Russell retired they forget that the great Sam Jones retired also.[/QUOTE]

Very valid points. One-on-one, Wilt probably would have destroyed Russell. BUT, basketball is 5x5. Quite often it comes down to the best chemistry. I honestly believe that Shaq, Kareem, and Wilt would make lousy teams better than Duncan or Russell. However, players like Russell or Duncan make good teams better than what those three would have.

Even Wilt, himself, said that Russell blended better with his Celtic teammates, than he (Wilt) would have.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Great point about height, a common misconception, it's was Wilt's athleticism that separated him much more than his 2 or 3 inch height advantage he usually had.

The evolution is more in terms of explosiveness. Athletes today are more explosive because of the training, supplementation and nutritional advances. Also the style taught and portrayed is a more athletic one.[/QUOTE]

People fail to realize that Magic Johnson had a far greater size advantage at the overall guard postion in the 80's than Wilt ever had at Center(MJ/Drexler as well).

Also the SG position was very different in the 80's OVERALL & was not as EXPLOSIVE with shorter(6'3/4 or shorter) jump shooting specialist like Ainge, Andrew Toney,Byron Scott, Joe Dumars, A. Robertson(great defender),Sleepy Floyd,World B Free, Moncrief, Fat Lever,etc... & even taller Jump shooters like Dale Ellis,Reggie Miller,etc....

Magic/MJ/Drexler feasted on these guys & they(Magic more than anyone else) revolutionized the guard positon.

I see no one dismissing their (Magic/MJ/Drexler)accomplishments like some do Wilt & he had less of a size advantage at Center than they overall at Guard.

I don't understand why 11 rings isn't enough of an argument...

No one else in te history of North American pro sports has done anything like it.

They never won before him, won 11 out of 13 when he was there and became one of the leagues worst teams the second he retired.

He was the one constant on those teams and is universally credited as the most important factor in the dynasty.

His teams were good, but in no way dominant. They went to a seventh game more than 10 times and never lost when Russell was healthy.

etc etc etc.

you all have heard this, I guess I just don't think you appreciate how significant it is.

[QUOTE=32jazz]People fail to realize that Magic Johnson had a far greater size advantage at the overall guard postion in the 80's than Wilt ever had at Center(MJ/Drexler as well).

Also the SG position was very different in the 80's OVERALL & was not as EXPLOSIVE with shorter(6'3/4 or shorter) jump shooting specialist like Ainge, Andrew Toney,Byron Scott, Joe Dumars, A. Robertson(great defender),Sleepy Floyd,World B Free, Moncrief, Fat Lever,etc... & even taller Jump shooters like Dale Ellis,Reggie Miller,etc....

Magic/MJ/Drexler feasted on these guys & they(Magic more than anyone else) revolutionized the guard positon.

I see no one dismissing their (Magic/MJ/Drexler)accomplishments like some do Wilt & he had less of a size advantage at Center than they overall at Guard.[/QUOTE]

In Wilt's 61-62 season, the average height of a starting center in the NBA was 6-10. By 1970, it was 6-11. In 2009, it was 7-0. So, in 40-50 years, we have seen the average starting center grow a full two inches. Not only that, but take Wilt out of the equation, and how many 7-1+ centers have won a rebounding title? And how many seasons TOTAL?

7-2 Kareem won ONE rebounding title. 7-2 Motumbo won two. 7-1 David Robinson won ONE. 7-2 Gilmore won three in the ABA, but in two of those seasons, his average per game was less than the NBA leader (Wilt and Kareem.) That's it. A TOTAL of FIVE NBA seasons, in NBA HISTORY, in which a 7-1 player, aside from Wilt, has won a rebounding title.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]I don't understand why 11 rings isn't enough of an argument...

No one else in te history of North American pro sports has done anything like it.

They never won before him, won 11 out of 13 when he was there and became one of the leagues worst teams the second he retired.

He was the one constant on those teams and is universally credited as the most important factor in the dynasty.

His teams were good, but in no way dominant. They went to a seventh game more than 10 times and never lost when Russell was healthy.

etc etc etc.

[B]you all have heard this, I guess I just don't think you appreciate how significant it is[/B].[/QUOTE]

Hopefully more-and-more readers here WILL come to appreciate what Russell accomplished. NO ONE IMPACTED the TEAM game of basketball, more than Russell.

[QUOTE=jlauber]In Wilt's 61-62 season, the average height of a starting center in the NBA was 6-10. By 1970, it was 6-11. In 2009, it was 7-0. So, in 40-50 years, we have seen the average starting center grow a full two inches. Not only that, but take Wilt out of the equation, and how many 7-1+ centers have won a rebounding title? And how many seasons TOTAL?

7-2 Kareem won ONE rebounding title. 7-2 Motumbo won two. 7-1 David Robinson won ONE. 7-2 Gilmore won three in the ABA, but in two of those seasons, his average per game was less than the NBA leader (Wilt and Kareem.) That's it. A TOTAL of FIVE NBA seasons, in NBA HISTORY, in which a 7-1 player, aside from Wilt, has won a rebounding title.[/QUOTE]

Not only that Jlauber the heights from the 1960's/70's were far more accurate & not these 'fudged' heights today in an era obssesed with numbers/camps/combines.

Players lie so much about their heights today that there is serious confusion over their actual heights. The funniest/oddest one was Akeem Olajuwon who announced out of the blue in the 90's that his name was actually spelled Hakeem & he was 6'10 & not 7'0.:oldlol:

I did this average for '68(Wilt's best season), '78, '88,'98,'08 once & starting Centers were relatively the same height:confusedshrug: (especially adjusting for players/agents/colleges 'routinely' lying about a players height today).


I have always dismissed this notion that Wilt only won rebounding titles(11) because he was tall(7'1 legit) when in 60 years of NBA Basketball only 4 true 7 footers have actually won rebounding titles & only Wilt & Mutombo(4) multiple ones( Plus Gilmore in the ABA).

'Statistically speaking' The Dipper was at a disadvantage when it came to rebounds & assists as well , but he also led the League in assists.

[QUOTE=32jazz]Not only that Jlauber the heights from the 1960's/70's were far more accurate & not these 'fudged' heights today in an era obssesed with numbers/camps/combines.

Players lie so much about their heights today that there is serious confusion over their actual heights. The funniest/oddest one was Akeem Olajuwon who announced out of the blue in the 90's that his name was actually spelled Hakeem & he was 6'10 & not 7'0.:oldlol:

I did this average for '68(Wilt's best season), '78, '88,'98,'08 once & starting Centers were relatively the same height:confusedshrug: (especially adjusting for players/agents/colleges 'routinely' lying about a players height today).


I have always dismissed this notion that Wilt only won rebounding titles(11) because he was tall(7'1 legit) when in 60 years of NBA Basketball only 4 true 7 footers have actually won rebounding titles & only Wilt & Mutombo(4) multiple ones( Plus Gilmore in the ABA).

'Statistically speaking' The Dipper was at a disadvantage when it came to rebounds & assists as well , but he also led the League in assists.[/QUOTE]

I haven't been able to find the original quote, but I recall Kiki Van de Wege making the claim that Wilt, in his mid-40's, ABUSED 7-4 Mark Eaton in a summer league game in the mid-80's. Can you imagine what Wilt would have accomplished against the likes of 7-2 clods like Ostertag, Breuer, Longley, Neavitt, Bol, Muresan, and SO MANY others...NONE of whom would have made an NBA roster back in the 60's and 70's? Even players like Smits and Eaton would have no chance against Wilt's athleticism and power.

[QUOTE=jlauber]I haven't been able to find the original quote, but I recall Kiki Van de Wege making the claim that Wilt, in his mid-40's, ABUSED 7-4 Mark Eaton in a summer league game in the mid-80's. Can you imagine what Wilt would have accomplished against the likes of 7-2 clods like Ostertag, Breuer, Longley, Neavitt, Bol, Muresan, and SO MANY others...NONE of whom would have made an NBA roster back in the 60's and 70's? Even players like Smits and Eaton would have no chance against Wilt's athleticism and power.[/QUOTE]

Can't remmber off hand about that one(Eaton), but I'll do some research.
I do remember very well the story Larry Brown tells about the pick up games at UCLA with Magic in the early 80's.

Magic was crying about fouls & made a few layups & Wilt got pissed. Said" No more layups in this gym today' & there were no more lay ups as Wilt swatted/intimidated everything else & pretty much shut up Magic in his mid 40's.:eek:


Also read a story that he was offered the oppurtunity to return as a 'back up' Center in the early 80's by the Lakers & maybe the Cavs(?) wanted him. With the Lakers it was alleged he was offered the oppurtunity to play home games only in the regular season, but eventually rebuffed the offer(Wilt was VERY successful/well off finanacially & didn't want to be some publicity stunt).

I'll try to find that for you.

respect the goats people :cheers:

[QUOTE=32jazz]Can't remmber off hand about that one(Eaton), but I'll do some research.
I do remember very well the story Larry Brown tells about the pick up games at UCLA with Magic in the early 80's.

Magic was crying about fouls & made a few layups & Wilt got pissed. Said" No more layups in this gym today' & there were no more lay ups as Wilt swatted/intimidated everything else & pretty much shut up Magic in his mid 40's.:eek:


Also read a story that he was offered the oppurtunity to return as a 'back up' Center in the early 80's by the Lakers & maybe the Cavs(?) wanted him. With the Lakers it was alleged he was offered the oppurtunity to play home games only in the regular season, but eventually rebuffed the offer(Wilt was VERY successful/well off finanacially & didn't want to be some publicity stunt).

I'll try to find that for you.[/QUOTE]

I have read them, but yes, if you can find it, please post it. Incidently there was a post about Wilt here a while back, after he "retired" from the NBA (he never technically retired)...and I found a remarkable comment from Wilt, saying that, at the time, he was in the best shape of his life. He even said that his arthritis had cleared (if that is possible?)

When people talk about Wilt's greatness, I almost never read about his LAST year in the NBA, and at age 37. He led the Lakers to the Finals (60-22 record BTW)...and four CLOSE losses (all games decided in the last minute.) He was voted first-team all-defense (for the second year in a row.) He averaged well over 20 rebounds per game in the post-season (as he did EVERY post-season.) He led the NBA in rebounding (for the 11th time in 14 seasons.) And he set a FG% mark of .727...that will probably not be approached, much less broken.

IF there was ever a player who could have played well into his mid-40's, it would have been Chamberlain. One of the most fascinating accounts of Wilt's physical condition, was the fact that there is an eye-witness account of him bench-pressing 465 lbs... at age 59! In Robert Cherry's book on Wilt, he interviewed hundreds of people who frequented with Wilt...and the stories of his physical prowess abound.

AND, as I have said MANY times...for all of the non-believers out there...where are the legitimate eye-witness accounts that DISPUTE his enormous strength, and staggering leaping ability???

I have a friend who contends Wilt retired because he didn't want his scoring average to dip below 30 for his career. he knew in the slower paced game with better athletes and defense that he couldn't average 30 anymore and win, so he called it quits. I am a little skeptical about that, but it's something to think about, he certainly could have kept playing if he wanted to. He was still a top center in 1973 and the only guy who could rotuniley match or outplay Alcindor.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]I have a friend who contends Wilt retired because he didn't want his scoring average to dip below 30 for his career. he knew in the slower paced game with better athletes and defense that he couldn't average 30 anymore and win, so he called it quits. I am a little skeptical about that, but it's something to think about, he certainly could have kept playing if he wanted to. He was still a top center in 1973 and the only guy who could rotuniley match or outplay Alcindor.[/QUOTE]

Probably as good as any theory out there. Wilt, himself, said later in his life, when he was offered contracts to play in his 40's...that he knew he could be competitive with the current players, but that he knew he was nowhere near the player he had been.

I am actually glad he never came back. I think, like Koufax and Jim Brown...they left with many fans wanting, and expecting more...even if it was probably unrealistic.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]I have a friend who contends Wilt retired because he didn't want his scoring average to dip below 30 for his career. he knew in the slower paced game with better athletes and defense that he couldn't average 30 anymore and win, so he called it quits. I am a little skeptical about that, but it's something to think about, he certainly could have kept playing if he wanted to. He was still a top center in 1973 and the only guy who could rotuniley match or outplay Alcindor.[/QUOTE]

Here's what someone from the Association of Professional Basketball Research said in 2006:

[quote]Without a doubt Wilt could have played in the NBA in his 40s' and
50s'.
In his final season he averaged a league leading 18.6 rebounds per
game. He average a respectable 13.2 ppg while shooting an
unbelievable .727 from the field. That is not a typo. Read my
lips .727 from the field. All of this at the age of 36. That same
year a young lad by the name of Kareem Abdul Jabbar was fourth in
rebounds at 16.1 per game. He was prime time talent his fourth year
as a pro and this old man Chamberlain is out hustling and out
rebounding him. Three years later Kareem would lead the league in
caroms at 16.9 per. Wilt would have then been 39 years of age and
Kareem 28 years of age. When Kareem was 36 and playing for LA his
rebound average was 7.3 per game a far cry from Wilt's 18.6 rebounds
at the same age. Two stars of two eras but look at the differance.
In Wilt's last season Elvin Hayes was No. 7 in the league at 14.5.
Four years later Elvin was still in top 10 at No. 6 with 12.5
So if we do guesstimate work at age 40 Wilt would get say two less
boards a game giving him a still league leading 16.6. Second in the
league would have been Bill Walton at 14.4 per game. Could you
picture a scrawny Bill holding back the muscle bound Wilt?
What about the other top rebounders of that year Bob McAdoo, Larry
Kenon? Wilt would have bowled them over.
Now at 50 years of age it would be a different story for Wilt.
Let's see? The top rebounder that year was Charles Barkley. Just
imagine Barkley at 6-foot-4 trying to hold back the aging Wilt who
at 50 was still in tip top shape playing and dominating scrimmages
with current and future NBA stars.
And if we look at development of the game in 5 years prior to Wilt
entering the NBA the top rebounder had 15.1 per game. In Wilt's
rookie year he averaged 27.0 boards per game. Five years after his
retirement the top player averaged 15.7 per game. So...five years
before Wilt came into the league top rebounders were at 15 per game
and five years after retiring they were back down to 15 per game.
His rebounding stats show that he was in a league of his own.
At age 40 Wilt would have still been the best defensive player in
the NBA.
At age 50 Wilt in the NBA?
Of the 23 teams I honestly believe he would have been the starting
centre for at least half of them.
Atlanta

Regul8r,

I don't think any of that is the least bit far-fetched. Half the centers in the NBA in the 80's were 7-0+ footers who could barely score, or rebound, ...and passing and dribbling were an adventure. I swear that some of them could not dunk. I did a study a while back, and the "tallest" period in NBA history was in the late 80's...something like 35 seven-footers. In fact, I believe it was in the year that 6-3, 170 lb. Fat Lever not only led his team in rebounding, he was in the top-20 in the league.

In Wilt's first book, there is a picture of him, probably in his late 30's, playing volleyball...and in it, his waist is above the top of the net. Jazz already mentioned the Larry Brown story...in which an amazed Brown witnessed Chamberlain taking over a summer league game that had the likes of Magic Johnson and Marques Johnson playing in it...and Wilt would have been in his mid-40's at the time. Hopefully someone can dig up Van de Wege's story about Wilt outplaying Mark Eaton...in the mid-80's.

Many of the current generation just believe that so much that has been written about Wilt is pure exaggeration. The fact is, the vast majority of those that played with Wilt, or were among his friends, had some eye-popping, eye-witness accounts of his incredible strength or leaping ability. I have given several here before, so no need to bore the readers again, but needless-to-say, as Robert Cherry wrote...he was "Larger than Life."

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]I did watch the videos and from watching them i[B]t seemed laughable to suggest Russell was better than Shaq and Kareem who truly dominated[/B]. He can have all of the assist numbers in the world, but he was not a better passer than Shaq or Kareem. Both were capable of more difficult passes from what I saw and because of their scoring ability, they drew far more double teams.

Then we have scoring which is what makes the comparison laughable. Shaq and Kareem were hands down top 3 scorers at their position and truly unstoppable. Russell was not even a top 20 scorer.

Russell has the edge as far as defense, but consider the huge advantage that guys like Ben Wallace and Mutombo have over guys like Daugherty and Yao defensively. But not one GM would take the former over the latter. Hell, you have a guy like Zo who was one of the best defenders ever and a great scorer himself(20-23 ppg), but no GM is taking him over Shaq. The bottom line is it's easier to build around a great low post scorer who is still a defensive presence than a great defender who is merely good offensively.

Russell won 11 titles with 1/4 the amount of teams and he played on a stacked team that is far beyond anything Shaq played with or even Kareem during his actualy pime('70-'80).

Despite Russell's pace advantage(which is the main reason for his rebounding and assist advantage) Shaq and Kareem are still more impressive statistically and both won a ton of titles themselves. Hell, Kareem won more MVP's than Russell as well.[/QUOTE]
You don't have to be dominant to be great. Magic, KG, Nash, Stockton, Walton, and Russell all weren't dominant, but had more impact then 90% of players.
Not really arguing with you statement that Kareem and Shaq were quite a bit better, but Russell has a logical argument for 2nd best player ever. He made his team mates better because he was amazing at everything except scoring. He didn't need to dominate the ball to have a huge impact.

[QUOTE=magnax1]You don't have to be dominant to be great. Magic, KG, Nash, Stockton, Walton, and Russell all weren't dominant, but had more impact then 90% of players.
Not really arguing with you statement that Kareem and Shaq were quite a bit better, but Russell has a logical argument for 2nd best player ever. He made his team mates better because he was amazing at everything except scoring. He didn't need to dominate the ball to have a huge impact.[/QUOTE]

I think that is VERY true. If it weren't, Wilt would have won about 10 rings, Kareem about 15, and Shaq probably somewhere around 10. Some players not only blend better (Rick Barry on the 74-75 Warriors), but they make their own teammates better (Russell...on almost any of his teams.)

Even Wilt, himself, admitted that Russell made his (Russell's) teammates better than he (Wilt) would have.

[QUOTE=jlauber]I think that is VERY true. If it weren't, Wilt would have won about 10 rings, Kareem about 15, and Shaq probably somewhere around 10. Some players not only blend better (Rick Barry on the 74-75 Warriors), but they make their own teammates better (Russell...on almost any of his teams.)

Even Wilt, himself, admitted that Russell made his (Russell's) teammates better than he (Wilt) would have.[/QUOTE]
Very true. The great thing about Russell from what I've watched of him (which sadly isn't that much) is that he combines the huge offensive impact a great point guard can have with the huge defensive impact a center can have.
While I don't think if he was stuck on Wilt's teams hed have 11 rings, He probably would have 5. However, 67 Wilt and 72 Wilt were better then any year of Bill Russell. So I'd have to put Wilt over Bill.

[QUOTE=magnax1]Very true. The great thing about Russell from what I've watched of him (which sadly isn't that much) is that he combines the huge offensive impact a great point guard can have with the huge defensive impact a center can have.
While I don't think if he was stuck on Wilt's teams hed have 11 rings, He probably would have 5. [B]However, 67 Wilt and 72 Wilt were better then any year of Bill Russell. So I'd have to put Wilt over Bill[/B].[/QUOTE]

I don't think you would too much of an argument from even the most ardent Russell fans on Wilt's 66-67 and 71-72 seasons...especially the 66-67 season. When Wilt played at his highest level, there was none better, nor more dominant. Problem was, I don't think Chamberlain had the same focus, or intense desire to win, that Russell did (in fact, even Wilt would admit as much.)

I will never forget one of my first visits to the forum, and I read a comment by Abe Lincoln, in which he said that Wilt was basically an underachiever. I was livid. Here was the greatest record-holder in probably not just basketball, but in any major professional team sport...being called an underachiever.

BUT, the more I read, the more I had to agree. The fact was, Wilt COULD have been more dominant. Even on one leg, he should have crushed Reed in that game seven. Robert Cherry blamed Wilt's game six (not his game seven) in the 68-69 Finals, for LA losing to Boston.

Not all of it was Chamberlain's fault. He had some mediocre teams early in his career. He also had some teams that suffered injuries at the worst possible time. And, he even had some remarkable bad luck. But, as great as he was, he should have been able to overcome much of that, particularly later in his career, and CARRIED those teams to wins.

I have long maintained that Wilt was EXPECTED to do more than anyone else. Was that fair? Probably not, but the fact was...he was such a skilled player, and such a physical specimen, that he was probably CAPABLE of accomplishing more.

When it came to the desire to win...no one was as obsessed as Russell. And deep down, I think Wilt "settled" far too much in his career. Maybe that is a bit harsh, but when you consider things like him getting upset with an SI article criticizing his ability to score...and he responded with a 60 point outburst...well, where was that when it was absolutely critical?