Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93

"Certain people" here who mysteriously all have one thing in common like to cherry pick Pippen's 200+ playoff game record (especially the parts where he had injured ankles, feet, backs, legs--except they "forget" to tell you these details) to paint him as a poor playoff performer. (the same thing can be done with anyone--even some uber-clutch people like Reggie Miller and "some others") Like any big lie, it has been repeated so often some people who never even watched Pippen play have began to believe it.

On its face this should ring alarm bells. He went to the NBA finals 6 times and played very well 5 times. He had one dud, when he had back, ankle, and foot injuries. And? There are several other legends who had bad finals, even when healthy. Does that mean they are chokers? A .833 batting average is excellent in the NBA finals. Pippen is one of the few players ever to come close to averaging a triple double in the NBA finals--and he did it three times, which is more than anyone not named Magic. [url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4005524#post4005524[/url]

I was going to make one post on some of his best playoff moments but after starting it quickly became clear that such a list would be so long it would not fit in one thread. He had too many great playoff moments that even a partial list winds up being lengthy. This is what happens when you make the playoffs 16 straight years and never have a losing season despite having numerous coaches, different teammates, different offensive schmes, and so on. The one constant was Pippen winning 50+ or around that every year until his last season, in which he played only 23 games and was and 18 minutes a game.
[B]
Here is his playoff record:
[/B]
6-0 in the NBA finals series, 24-11 in games
6-3 in conference finals, 32-15 in games
144 playoff wins, second behind Kareem on the all-time playoff win list. To put 144 playoff wins in context, Kareem has 154, Magic 127 and Jordan 125.

A big problem in assessing Pippen is like Bill Russell, another legend who managed to win wherever he went, a lot of the things he did to help his team do not easily stick out on a statsheet. This leads to hilarities like two people in one thread going to basketballreference.com and seeing “10/4/4” and bashing him for it even though he dominated that NBA finals game defensively. In a thread a while ago four posters, all mysteriously having a certain thing in common, went to basketballreference and completely ignored his defensive dominance in that finals when they were for some mysterious reason downplaying his performance in that finals prior to his injury.

Here is historian Bill Simmons (whether you like him or not the fact is he is a bona fide basketball historian, not just a columnist) on Pippen's impact in the shadows of games. I redacted the parts of the article referring to Player X, since experience has shown it is best to minimize mentions of him in Pippen threads.

[QUOTE]If the answer is "yes" for No. 1, you probably wonder why Scottie's recent retirement wasn't a bigger story. It's not every day one of the 20 greatest players ever hangs it up, right? .... Does anyone even consider the concept of a point forward? Did any other small forward affect a game in more ways? Was there a more influential defensive player in the past 30 years?

During the 1992 Olympics, Chuck Daly called Scottie his second-best player, describing him as the ultimate "fill-in-the-blanks guy." That's right. Like The Wolf in "Pulp Fiction," Scottie specialized in cleaning up everyone else's mess. When Magic was running amok in the 1991 Finals, Scottie shut him down. When the Knicks were shoving the Bulls around in the 1994 playoffs, Scottie dunked on Ewing, then stood over him defiantly. During the Charles Smith game the year before, Pippen and Horace Grant were the ones stuffing Smith again and again. And when the 1998 Pacers tried to snuff out the ... era, ..... and Pippen crashed the boards and willed themselves time and again to the foul line in Game 7, two smaller guys dominating the paint against a bigger team. They just wanted it more.

...Even better, Tubbs could carry his own episode every now and then, which was precisely what happened in 1994.... Scottie (22.0 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 5.6 apg, 49% FG) came within a fishy foul on Hubert Davis from taking Chicago to the Finals. How did he not win the MVP award? [B]Pippen detractors conveniently forget that season, just like they ignore the older Scottie leading Portland to within one self-destructive quarter of the 2000 Finals, or gutting through the 1998 playoffs with two herniated disks, in the process jeopardizing his crack at free agency. It's easy to dismiss him as ... 's sidekick. Or to point to the migraine in 1990's Game 7 against the Pistons.[/B] Hey, if all else fails, just bring up the quitter thing.[/QUOTE]


[url]http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/041101[/url]

If you read Simmons' book you know Pippen came up several times. "Best defensive forward ever", the Pippen all-time ranking portion (he is right behind KG and Isiah Thomas and right ahead of John Stockton in case you want to find that part of the book), in the all-time team section, best teams section, etc.. Funny how Simmons, who criticized several other players for choking, never said the same thing about Pippen.

In fact who has? Show me a quote from a legitimate authority, not a few internet message board posters who all "happen" to fans of the same guy, that says this. If Pippen was a poor playoff performer over the course of 16 years in the playoffs evidently this is news to every knowledgeable person. I have heard people like Magic Johnson and Larry Bird call Pippen a superstar, Doug Collins call him and ___ the best perimeter defenders ever, Chuck Daly call him the second-best player on the Dream Team, a Pulitzer Prize winning author who wrote a biography on _____ call him "arguably the second-best player in the league" in his prime, Sports Illustrated call him the second-best player in the NBA and so on. Rod Thorn: "Pippen provided them big shots." Tex Winter and Steve Kerr: Pippen made his teammates better. Phil Jackson: Pippen was a great leader, dominant defender, should have been MVP in 94'. Ron Harper: Pippen's all-around game greatly helped his team win and that was lost in the shuffle because all people talked about was scoring. And on and on. Where are the "Scottie Pippen was a choker" and "Scottie Pippen consistently underperformed in the playoffs" quotes? I am talking about over the course of his career. 16 years. 200+ playoff games. Of course you likely can find a "He sucked in Game X" quote. You can do that with anyone. Can you pull a Chris Webber or Karl Malone and find anyone with legitimacy saying the same thing about such a trend over his entire record? It is amazing to me how many people have bought this myth without ever contemplating the fact that no credible source ever adheres to this view. As I mentioned earlier, the only people who say this are internet posters who all have one thing in common and it doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to connect the dots as to what their agenda is.
[B]
Here are his raw numbers in the playoffs, though.
[/B]
Pippen consistently improved in the playoffs, especially his rebounding.

1988: +2 ppg, +1 rpg,
1989: -1 ppg, +2 rpg
1990: +2 ppg, =rpg
1991: +4 ppg, +2 rpg
1992: -1 ppg, +1 rpg
1993: +1 ppg, -1 rpg
1994: +1 ppg, -1 rpg
1995: -2 ppg, +2 rpg (compared to his numbers after MJ returned)
1996: -2 ppg, +3 rpg
1997: =ppg, =rpg (excluding Game 5 of the ECF where he got hurt, played 7 minutes)
1998: -2 ppg, +2 rpg
1999: +3 ppg, +5 rpg
2000: +2 ppg, +1 rpg (Pippen led the 00' Blazers in rebounding, assists, minutes, steals and scored just 3 ppg less than Wallace)
2001: +3 ppg, +1 rpg
2002: +5 ppg, +4 rpg
2003: -5 ppg, -1 rpg

His assists were consistent so I did not include that. 10 times he increased his scoring, and 11 times his rebounding. Three times when his scoring declined he was injured and the other was in his second season. In 1992 it declined but only from 21 ppg to 20 ppg. His rebounding declined thrice, and one instance was in 2003 when he was injured and toast as a player and barely played in that series. Does this look like the record of a “usually terrible playoff performer” or “a choker”? Most players see their stats decline or remain even in the playoffs because of the tougher competition they face. Pippen is one of those who raised his stats. How could this be?

On to some great moments: :cheers:

[B]1991[/B]

Against the Knicks: 21/11/5/4/3 in the closeout game.
Against the Sixers: 28/8/6 in the closeout game.
Against the Pistons: Having memories of the “migraine game” fresh in his mind, Pippen had a great all-around performance in his first crack at the Pistons since that game. 18 points, 5 boards, only 2 assists but 6 steals and 5 blocks! He had 23/6/10 in the closeout game.

Against the Lakers (21/9/7 for the series):

*Game 2 of the 1991 NBA finals: After losing Game 1 the upstart Bulls suddenly stared the prospect of facing an 0-2 deficit against Magic Johnson's Lakers when Michael Jordan got into early foul trouble. Phil Jackson put Pippen on Johnson for that game and Pippen's long arms, size harassed Magic into having his worst game of the finals. [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsma02/gamelog/1991/#stats_playoffs[/url] The Bulls won the game.

[QUOTE]”Your defense on Magic Johnson changed the fortunes of the series.”-Phil Jackson[/QUOTE]

*Game 5 of the 1991 NBA finals: 32/13/7/5, including something like 26 or 28 second half points to finish off the Lakers.

[B]1992[/B]

Against Miami: 31/8/5 with 2 blocks to closeout Miami.
Against New York in the ECSF: Pippen had an up and down series but when all the chips were on the line he responded with a masterful triple double in Game 7. 17/11/11 on 64% with three steals thrown in for good measure.

Against Cleveland in the ECF:

He picked up where he left in New York. 29/12/9 with 3 blocks and a steal as the Bulls beat the Cavs in Game 1.

In the closeout Game 6 Pippen had 29/12/5/4/4. For the series he averaged 18/11/6/ with 2 steals and a 1.5 blocks per game.

NBA finals versus Portland (21/8/8):

Pippen welcomed the Blazers with 24/9/10 in Game 1. He had several other near-triple doubles. 16/8/10 in Game 2, 18/8/7, and 24/11/9 in Game 5 to help the Bulls take a 3-2 lead in Portland.

His finest moment, and perhaps the finest moment of his career, came in Game 6, though. Entering the fourth quarter of Game 6 the Bulls found themselves in a massive 15 point hole. Pippen and four bench players were the unit which opened the quarter. Pippen led them to a quick 14-2 run to bring the Bulls back into the game and prevent a Game 7.

[QUOTE]Facing a 15-point deficit going into the fourth quarter of Game Six of the 1992 NBA Finals versus the Portland Trail Blazers, Scottie Pippen led the Bulls’ reserves on a 14-2 run before Michael Jordan and the remaining starters rejoined him on the floor to seal the team’s second NBA Championship.
Chicago’s 33-14 domination in the final frame was just enough for the Bulls to secure the 97-93 victory. The star of the miraculous rally, Pippen, finished the game with 26 points (9-of-17 shooting, 6-of-9 from the line), five rebounds and four boards.

Blazers big man Jerome Kersey (24 points, nine rebounds) led Portland to a six-point lead at the intermission, 50-44. Rather than narrowing the gap, the Bulls found themselves down 79-64 entering the fourth quarter. Game Seven appeared imminent to everyone in the Chicago Stadium, until Pippen and the Bulls’ bench began the furious rally.
[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.nba.com/bulls/history/pippen10_920614.html[/url]

You can watch the rally at [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9ywikMqqo4&feature=related[/url] .

[B]1993[/B]

ECF vs. the Knicks:

The Bulls lost the first two games and the series was essentially on the line in Game 3. Pippen came through with 29 points on 83% shooting.

In Game 5 Pip had 28 points and 11 rebounds. That game, though, is most remembered for the legendary defensive stops on Charles Smith on the Knicks' final possession that sealed victory. [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnoZPsJCs64[/url] Had Smith scored the Knicks, who trailed 95-94, would have had a 3-2 series lead with Game 7 slated for New York.
Here is the call from Marv Albert: “Smith stripped...Smith stopped...Smith stopped again by Pippen! What a play by Scottie Pippen!...The Chicago Bulls with a couple of spectacular plays, Scottie Pippen stopping Charles Smith...”

Game 6 was another great performance. Pippen had 24/6/7 (16 of those points were second half points) and was clutch down the stretch, when he needed to step up because the rest of the team was struggling (one guy was 0 for 7 in the 4th quarter). Scroll to 5:00 to see Pippen sink the nail in the Knicks' coffin with a clutch three pointer (this was back when Pippen was not a good three point shooter). [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llgnf6gY_gM#t=4m56s[/url] Here is what Marv Albert and the Czar had to say:
[QUOTE]
Albert: “...Again Scottie Pippen has hit the big shot...”
Czar: “...Talk about driving a stake in the guy's heart...Time after time in this series Scottie Pippen has proving that he can come up big when they need him...”
Albert: “Remember back in Game 4 it was Pippen who...(delivered a) crushing blow to the Knicks (with a three point play with 2 minutes left)

Ahmad Rashad: “You played big the whole series...”[/QUOTE]

Some other commentator from a broadcast from wherever the guy who made the video is from said “The difference in this one was Scottie Pippen...He stepped up and hit the (big) shots when they needed them...He ended up with the ball even on plays designed for Michael and still comes through...Following the game Phil Jackson talked about Scottie stepping up when Michael was down...”

Jackson: “Scottie Pippen stepped up big...”

Listen to Pip's interview at the end. Instead of taking the credit he was praising MJ (for doing little things to help his team when he shot was off—you know, just like Scottie did time and again)!

What was Sports Illustrated's take on the series? Pippen was the MVP of the series. [url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1138680/index.htm[/url]

[QUOTE]June 14, 1993
[b]Eye Of The Storm
A versatile star led the Bulls to a 4-2 elimination of the Knicks, and he wasn't named Jordan[/B]

Throughout the entertaining Eastern scrum, which ended last Friday night in Chicago with a 96-88 Bull victory in Game 6, Pippen and Michael Jordan were like pop-ups in an arcade game: Slam one down with a rubber hammer and the other springs up.
It was not surprising that Jordan was able to pick up Pippen, of course; such acts are part of Superman's daily agenda. But it was intriguing to see [B]Pippen step into the temporary vacuums left by the sometimes physically exhausted and mentally overburdened Jordan (page 13). For the first time in Chicago's three successive marches into the NBA Finals, in fact, a Bull other than Jordan would have deserved to be named MVP in a playoff series, were such an honor awarded for a series other than the Finals.[/B]
The spotlight will inevitably be trained on Jordan and his superstar counterpart, Charles Barkley of the Phoenix Suns, in the 1993 NBA Finals, which began in Phoenix on Wednesday. But if Jordan's shaky shooting continues—a career 52% shooter, he made only 40% of his shots against the Knicks—Pippen's number will be called, again and again.
[B]During the decisive Game 6 of the Eastern Conference finals, for example, it was not Jordan who made the big second-half shots but Pippen, he of the supposedly crumbling-cookie composure. When the Knicks, having almost eliminated a seven-point deficit, threatened to steal the game late in the fourth period, two Pippen jumpers with the shot clock almost at zero bailed out the Bulls.[/B] The first came from the deep right corner just after Pippen had flashed a smirk at Knick superfan Spike Lee, sitting at courtside. The second, a three-pointer from beyond the top of the key, was followed by Pippen's raising his index finger and glancing at Starks with another Were you there? expression on his face. Boy, [B]the Knicks must've felt like killing Pippen.[/B][/QUOTE]

[b]1993 NBA finals (21/9/8 for the series)[/b]

Game 1: 27/9/5 to open the series
Game 2: A triple double! 15/12/12 with 2 blocks and 2 steals.
Game 3: 26/10/9 with 3 blocks.
Game 6: A solid 23/12/5/4, along with a hockey assist on the game winning play to finish the series.

All in all, not bad for a "usually terrible playoff performer."

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: great posts rock. i must say i didnt even know he was this good. i guess as a youngster we were so infatuated with watching mj and now looking back thats so unfortunate.

i think your starting to open a few others eyes too. ive seen a few guys recently throw him in the 20-22 range. that can be attributed to you and fatal.

Good post. Top 25 and Goat defender.:cheers:

I have him at 22 on my list.

His importance to the Bulls was comparable to most number one options on any other teams.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]

[B]1993[/B]

ECF vs. the Knicks:

[b]The Bulls lost the first two games and the series was essentially on the line in Game 3. Pippen came through with 29 points on 83% shooting.[/b]

[b]In Game 5 Pip had 28 points and 11 rebounds. That game, though, is most remembered for the legendary defensive stops on Charles Smith on the Knicks' final possession that sealed victory. [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnoZPsJCs64[/url] Had Smith scored the Knicks, who trailed 95-94, would have had a 3-2 series lead with Game 7 slated for New York.
Here is the call from Marv Albert: “Smith stripped...Smith stopped...Smith stopped again by Pippen! What a play by Scottie Pippen!...The Chicago Bulls with a couple of spectacular plays, Scottie Pippen stopping Charles Smith...”[/b]

Game 6 was another great performance. Pippen had 24/6/7 (16 of those points were second half points) and was clutch down the stretch, when he needed to step up because the rest of the team was struggling (one guy was 0 for 7 in the 4th quarter). Scroll to 5:00 to see Pippen sink the nail in the Knicks' coffin with a clutch three pointer (this was back when Pippen was not a good three point shooter). [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llgnf6gY_gM#t=4m56s[/url] Here is what Marv Albert and the Czar had to say:


Some other commentator from a broadcast from wherever the guy who made the video is from said “The difference in this one was Scottie Pippen...He stepped up and hit the (big) shots when they needed them...He ended up with the ball even on plays designed for Michael and still comes through...[b]Following the game Phil Jackson talked about Scottie stepping up when Michael was down...”[/b]

Jackson: “Scottie Pippen stepped up big...”

Listen to Pip's interview at the end. Instead of taking the credit he was praising [b]MJ (for doing little things to help his team when he shot was off—you know, just like Scottie did time and again)![/b]
[/QUOTE]

I think you're selling Michael's performance that series a little short. In game 3, he went 22/8/11 with two blocks and steals. Game 5, he had a 29/10/14 along with two steals and a block. Let's also not forget the 54 point performance in game 4. Other than that, thanks for highlighting Scottie's best playoff moments, it was fun reminiscing. :cheers:

EDIT: Wasn't 1993 also the year Michael had the sprained wrist and had hurt his ankle earlier in the first round against Atlanta?

[quote][B]In Game 5 Pip had 28 points and 11 rebounds. That game, though, is most remembered for the legendary defensive stops on Charles Smith on the Knicks' final possession that sealed victory. [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnoZPsJCs64"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnoZPsJCs64[/URL] Had Smith scored the Knicks, who trailed 95-94, would have had a 3-2 series lead with Game 7 slated for New York.
Here is the call from Marv Albert: “Smith stripped...Smith stopped...Smith stopped again by Pippen! What a play by Scottie Pippen!...The Chicago Bulls with a couple of spectacular plays, Scottie Pippen stopping Charles Smith...”[/B][/quote]Pippen actually got him once. As did Jordan, Grant, & the bottom of the backboard. NY easily could have won Game 5 if not for the BS blocking foul on Rivers.

The reason he is usually called a choker is due to the term clutch these days being strictly attributed to a slew of jump shots in the final minutes of a game. Nobody cares about the defensive end of the basketball or even the elimination games nearly as much as a so called closer hitting a GW.

[quote]A big problem in assessing Pippen is like Bill Russell, another legend who managed to win wherever he went, a lot of the things he did to help his team do not easily stick out on a statsheet. [b]This leads to hilarities like two people in one thread going to basketballreference.com and seeing “10/4/4” and bashing him for it even though he dominated that NBA finals game defensively.[/b][/quote]

I actually watched that game live. The Bulls had the game won by the half and rested their starters, as did Utah. Then it turned into an epic 96-54 blowout. :lol

Thanks, 97 and juju. :cheers:

[QUOTE]His importance to the Bulls was comparable to most number one options on any other teams.[/QUOTE]

Interesting point. It isn't just his scoring role (give them 19-22 points per game) but he also had to rebound (7-9 boards), defend (in a dominant fashion, not a merely contain your other guy and help now and then fashion), and run the offense. How many other "second options" had this much responsibility?

[QUOTE]I think you're selling Michael's performance that series a little short. [/quote]

Come on. Do we need to turn every Pippen thread into a Jordan thread? I deliberately tried to minimize mentions of Jordan in the OP to keep the thread on track. Of course Jordan was great, even when he shot poorly because he would do other things to help his team (just like Pippen, like having 11 boards, 11 assists on a bad back yet all we hear about is his shooting). I gave him props for that in the OP and have done so in other threads. The only reason Jordan was relevant is that when he needed some help Pippen stepped up. According to some Pippen was incapable of doing this.

[QUOTE]EDIT: Wasn't 1993 also the year Michael had the sprained wrist and had hurt his ankle earlier in the first round against Atlanta?[/QUOTE]

Yes. Why does this matter? Jordan himself had to step up when Pippen got hurt badly in the 98' finals. This stuff happens. The thing is if Pippen was a choker he would have crumbled, not risen to the occasion like he did.

[QUOTE]thanks for highlighting Scottie's best playoff moments, it was fun reminiscing.[/QUOTE]

Best moments from 1991-93. There is more for other years but it just wouldn't fit in one thread.

[QUOTE]Pippen actually got him once. As did Jordan, Grant, & the bottom of the backboard. NY easily could have won Game 5 if not for the BS blocking foul on Rivers.[/QUOTE]

Yes, but that was the call. The call is more dramatic than what actually happened. :lol

[QUOTE]The reason he is usually called a choker is due to the term clutch these days being strictly attributed to a slew of jump shots in the final minutes of a game. Nobody cares about the defensive end of the basketball or even the elimination games nearly as much as a so called closer hitting a GW.[/QUOTE]

I agree and it is unfair in his case since he rarely took game winners because he had Jordan. In effect, his is criticized for not making shots he never took! This is why you never hear of a long list of game winners he missed. There is no such list because he took so few over the course of such a lengthy period. The only big one that comes to mind is Game 1 of the 98' finals.


[QUOTE]
I actually watched that game live. The Bulls had the game won by the half and rested their starters, as did Utah. Then it turned into an epic 96-54 blowout.[/QUOTE]

To an extent. Pippen played 35 minutes, Jordan 32. The game was close after the first quarter but it blew up after that. The Bulls were up about 20 at halftime and then pulled their starters in the third. Why does any of this matter? The point is Pippen had a dominant game but because he scored only 10 points people actually were citing that game as an example of Pippen not playing well in a big game! It would be like looking up a Bill Russell game where he scored 10 points and had 5 assists and saying he did nothing. (and no, Pippen is not Russell but he is similar in the sense that he did a lot of things that did not easily show up in the box score--especially defense. There is no stat for disrupting the pinpoint timing if the #1 offense)

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]
To an extent. Pippen played 35 minutes, Jordan 32. The game was close after the first quarter but it blew up after that. The Bulls were up about 20 at halftime and then pulled their starters in the third. Why does any of this matter? The point is Pippen had a dominant game but because he scored only 10 points people actually were citing that game as an example of Pippen not playing well in a big game! It would be like looking up a Bill Russell game where he scored 10 points and had 5 assists and saying he did nothing. (and no, Pippen is not Russell but he is similar in the sense that he did a lot of things that did not easily show up in the box score--especially defense. There is no stat for disrupting the pinpoint timing if the #1 offense)[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I didn't say that to discredit Pippen. I was agreeing with you, his numbers didn't tell the whole story. He along with Harper, Kukoc and Michael dominated Utah that game.

I only brought up Michael's injuries because you mentioned how other ISH members unfairly bash Scottie for performing poorly when injured. Just saying. :confusedshrug:

I want to see how many threads Roundball has made about Pippen. It has to be at least 3/4 of his threads.

[QUOTE]I only brought up Michael's injuries because you mentioned how other ISH members unfairly bash Scottie for performing poorly when injured. Just saying. [/QUOTE]

Was I bashing Jordan? Was I cherry picking those games to paint him as a choker? In the GOAT criteria thread I gave him a perfect score on clutchness. Ask juju since he was in that thread.

[QUOTE]He along with Harper, Kukoc and Michael dominated Utah that game. [/QUOTE]

:oldlol:

The agenda. Every thread. I will go into more detail about that game in the 1994-1998 thread. All I will say is the articles and comments from [B]everyone[/B] involved (both coaches, players), journalists who watched the game in several major newspapers, commentators like Doug Collins all mentioned one player dominating defensively. :oldlol: at acting as if there was not a legendary performance in that game. Of course team defense mattered--just as it does whenever someone dominates defensively (of course, the team matters on offense as well unless someone is grabbing every board, taking it down the court and scoring all by himself all game) but there was no question who was primarily responsible for the annihilation of the Utah offense. Now keep the agenda for another thread. I will not respond to any of the anti-Pippen agenda people in this thread after this post. The purpose of this thread is to correct a nefarious myth. It is to build up, not tear down a player. Take a page from the two Jordan fans (juju, kellogs) above you in this thread who kept with the spirit of the thread. I won't even bother reading what magnax said but he says the same things in every Pippen thread. I am sure the rest of the cavalry will be arriving soon as well. :lol

Claiming Kukoc dominated a game defensively to diminish Pippen. Just wow. :roll:

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Was I bashing Jordan? Was I cherry picking those games to paint him as a choker?[/quote]

Sorry, it just seemed odd that you'd mention Jordan's shooting woes throughout the series but not mention a 54 point performance or a triple double. If that wasn't your intention, then I apologize.

[quote]The agenda. Every thread. I will go into more detail about that game in the 1994-1998 thread. [b]All I will say is the articles and comments from [B]everyone[/B] involved (both coaches, players), journalists who watched the game in several major newspapers, commentators like Doug Collins all mentioned one player dominating defensively.[/b] :oldlol: at acting as if there was not a legendary performance in that game. Of course team defense mattered--just as it did when Russell dominated but there was no question who was primarily responsible for the annihilation of the Utah offense. Now keep the trolling for another thread. I will not respond to any of the anti-Pippen agenda people in this thread. The purpose of this thread is to correct a nefarious myth. It is to build up, not tear down a player.[/QUOTE]

:confusedshrug: I just said the Bulls were great that game, not that Scotttie wasn't the Bull's most dominant defender. Also, I wasn't referring to defense specifically. Jordan put up 24 points in 32 minutes, Harper had an 8/10/7 and Kukoc put up 16/6/4/4. I only mentioned that I saw it because I agreed that Pippen's performance in game three is unfairly judged due to some people only looking at the base stats. Scottie's defense was one of the reasons for that blowout, probably the biggest one.

Also, had Scottie played 40+ minutes, I'm sure his numbers would have been good enough for people not to think he played poorly that game(For those who only checked the stats). He would have had at least 15/6/6, and that's if he coasted.

[quote]Claiming Kukoc dominated a game defensively to diminish Pippen. Just wow.[/quote]

I said he had a good game, not that he dominated defensively. 16/6/4/4 is very good for a sixth man, no?

Just to be absolutely clear, I am [b]not[/b] saying Harper's, Jordan's and Kukoc's defense was as good as Scottie's that game, just that they played well.

EDIT: Also, I have to admit it was funny that you thought I was saying Kukoc's defense was anywhere as good as Scottie's. :lol

Toni was mediocre defensively, whereas Scottie was the GOAT defensive and all-around sf in the 90s.

[QUOTE]Sorry, it just seemed odd that you'd mention Jordan's shooting woes throughout the series but not mention a 54 point performance or a triple double.[/QUOTE]

What relevance does any of that have? I know some want to make every Pippen thread a Jordan thread but this is a thread about Pippen having great playoff games. In that series a key part of the story is Pippen stepping up when Jordan was down [I]at times[/I] (something some claim was never possible). Did you see me go out of my way to mention Jordan shot 17% in Game 3? No, because it wasn't relevant but if my intent was to bash Jordan I would have mentioned it. Did you see me say Jordan sucked every game? All I--and commentators and Sports Illustrated--said is when the Bulls needed Pippen to step up in the clutch he did. It is hard to talk about this while completely ignoring Jordan. If Jordan did not struggle SOME of the time there would be no occasion for Pippen to step up. What am I supposed to say? "Pippen stepped up when Player X was struggling"? :oldlol:

Relax. Jordan had maybe only 2-3 "bad", by his standards, series in his entire career! :bowdown:

[QUOTE]Jordan put up 24 points in 32 minutes, Harper had an 8/10/7 and Kukoc put up 16/6/4/4. [/QUOTE]

None of that is relevant to defense. I am sure people scored a lot in games which Russell dominated defensively as well. So if someone talks about Russell dominating defensively does that mean we have to mention what Sam Jones or Havelick scored as well?

[QUOTE]Also, had Scottie played 40+ minutes, I'm sure his numbers would have been good enough for people not to think he played poorly that game(For those who only checked the stats). He would have had at least 15/6/6, and that's if he coasted.
[/QUOTE]

15/6/6 on paper is hardly a superstar performance. Besides, he had 0 points in the second half. I don't think anyone was really trying by that point. According to some you have to score 30 points or you suck. It wasn't just that game. They gave him credit only for a 28 point Game 4. The story of the series was defense when the Bulls went up 3-1 before he got hurt and he was easily the primary reason for that. Yet all a few posters talked about was his scoring and comparing 20 ppg to 30 ppg. There were even some who claimed that another player, with, um, [I]much less[/I] responsibilities on defense had basically as much impact defensively on that series as Pippen. They did not even acknowledge Pippen's defensive dominance, even when a mountain of contemporary primary source evidence was presented to them. It wouldn't have mattered if he scored 4 points (Game 1 98' ECF), 10 points, or 20 points to them. 30+ or bust, baby!

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]What relevance does any of that have? I know some want to make every Pippen thread a Jordan thread but this is a thread about Pippen having great playoff games. In that series a key part of the story is Pippen stepping up when Jordan was down [I]at times[/I] (something some claim was never possible). Did you see me go out of my way to mention Jordan shot 17% in Game 3? No, because it wasn't relevant but if my intent was to bash Jordan I would have mentioned it. Did you see me say Jordan sucked every game? All I--and commentators and Sports Illustrated--said is when the Bulls needed Pippen to step up in the clutch he did. It is hard to talk about this while completely ignoring Jordan. If Jordan did not struggle SOME of the time there would be no occasion for Pippen to step up. What am I supposed to say? "Pippen stepped up when Player X was struggling"? :oldlol:

Relax. Jordan had maybe only 2-3 "bad", by his standards, series in his entire career! :bowdown:[/quote]

Forget what I said about Jordan, then. I apologize.

[quote]None of that is relevant to defense. I am sure people scored a lot in games which Russell dominated defensively as well. So if someone talks about Russell dominating defensively does that mean we have to mention what Sam Jones or Havelick scored as well?[/quote]

That really wasn't what I was trying to say. I wasn't trying to prop up Scottie's teammate's in game 3. You are correct in saying Scottie dominated defensively in game 3, there is no disputing that. Utah couldn't do sh-t that game and left shell-shocked thanks to Scottie.

[quote]15/6/6 on paper is hardly a superstar performance.[/quote]

Like I said, if he coasted. He probably could have finished with more than that. Regardless, he still had a great defensive performance.

[quote]Besides, he had 0 points in the second half. I don't think anyone was really trying by that point. According to some you have to score 30 points or you suck. It wasn't just that game. They gave him credit only for a 28 point Game 4. The story of the series was defense when the Bulls went up 3-1 before he got hurt and he was easily the primary reason for that. Yet all a few posters talked about was his scoring and comparing 20 ppg to 30 ppg. There were even some who claimed that another player, with, um, [I]much less[/I] responsibilities on defense had basically as much impact defensively on that series as Pippen. They did not even acknowledge Pippen's defensive dominance, even when a mountain of contemporary primary source evidence was presented to them. It wouldn't have mattered if he scored 4 points (Game 1 98' ECF), 10 points, or 20 points to them. 30+ or bust, baby![/QUOTE]

Is this in reference to users who made threads older than my account? I've seen maybe a couple of people bring it up here and no one really went into a heavy discussion regarding it.

Great post that not only portrays Pippen accurately as not only one of the great winners in NBA history, but also one of the best all around forwards of all time. I can't think of a defensive small forward as good as him, and the only players I can think of being as capable in the point forward role are Lebron and perhaps Grant Hill in his prime. Not to mention that he was a good 3 point shooter, could post up and score with a little jump hook or bank shot, he was excellent in the open court and a great penetrator. Of course with his 7'2" wingspan and athleticism he was also one of the best finishers of his day. All of that is why you count on him to average an efficient 19-22 ppg.

And finally, a part of Pippen's game that goes overlooked so often is his rebounding. How many other small forwards in the last 20 years were getting 8-9 rpg?

Great post :bowdown: . Something like this was needed considering how ignorant 90% of ISH on Pippen.

This is just from '91-'93. He was beasting for most of the 1990 playoffs too. I know boxscores from games before 1991 aren't available, so I'll lift the curtain on Pippen's 1990 playoffs run, when apparently he wasn't a legit second option or "giving enough help" according to a misinformed group....

Game 1 vs. Bucks - 17/10/13 - opens up the playoffs with a triple double
Game 2 vs. Bucks - 32/8/8/4 - yes, this is Pippen's line, not Jordan's. 24 year old second options aren't suppose to have games like this! He dominated defensively as well.
Game 3 vs. Bucks - 21/9/9/2 - MJ and Alvin Robertson were having a shootout. In the first half MJ was picking up the scoring load and Robertson went off for 24 pts on him, and it was continuing midway through the third until Pippen came on him and held AR to like 7-8 pts afterwards (most were in transition or off switches btw).
Game 4 vs. Bucks - 20/11/2/4 - if this game was competitive, we'd be looking at a 28/12/5/5 type of game. led the Bulls in this game to close out the Bucks.

so, dude completely [B]dismantled [/B]the Bucks :oldlol:

And then on to the Sixers series. Bulls had a great matchup again with Jordan getting a 6'2 poor defensive shooting guard on him and the Bulls decided to exploit it for all it was worth. It was a good strategy to give MJ an unrestrained green light since he literally had to just shoot, with Hawkins/Dawkins having 0 chance of bothering his shot, and the lane being "anchored" by Charles Barkley :oldlol: . So Pip wasn't needed to score as much and he wouldn't get many shots/possessions to use, as MJ was "getting his" with 32 shots a game. Pip still had 18/12/8 in game 1, found out his dad had 24 hours to live right before game 3 (was understandably unfocused during the game), flew out to meet him and got to spend 2 hours with him before he died. He missed game 4 due to the funeral but then came back big time in game 5 for a brilliant 29/6/3/2 game (13/17 shooting!) to close out the Sixers with MJ.

In the Pistons series, he wasn't as effective, mainly due to bad road performances by the entire team. No one could get it going offensively as Pistons distrupted the entire offense and shut down the Bulls. Even MJ, at the peak of his career, shot just 12/27, 5/16, 7/19 and 13/27 in the road games. Scottie, like MJ, was still great in the home games. In game 3 he dropped 29/11/5/3 and shot 57% in all the home games combined. Of course the only thing from the entire series and playoff run that is brought up is a game where Pippen had a migraine so bad that his vision was blurred.

Pippen was already one of the best second options in the league by 1990 (was better than someone like Worthy at that point, especially considering he had already become a beast on defense). This is why I find it ridiculous that people point to ONE boxscore, in a game Pippen wasn't even healthy to to bash him (clearly so the accomplishments of another player can look better by discrediting him).

I've seen almost every game from his 1990 playoffs run over the last year and I think I'll make a youtube channel highlighting some of these great games, as well as ones from '91-'93 too, because most Pippen games uploaded are post-'94.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]How many other small forwards in the last 20 years were getting 8-9 rpg?[/QUOTE]
This is a very important point. He averaged 2.5 offensive boards in a season and got around 3.5 in some of his playoff runs. Offensive rebounds are tougher to get, and are usually more accurate at determining a player's rebounding skill (considering how many defensive rebounds go uncontested). To put things in perspective, a great rebounding SF like Lebron doesn't even average half the number of offensive rebounds that Pippen did. Even Jordan, who was a great offensive rebounder for a perimeter player never got above 2. Can't count how many times Pippen got Bulls extra possessions during key moments in playoff games, same with Grant. Rebounders like Pippen, Grant and later Rodman (along with Jordan too), are why Bulls never missed having an elite center. They had the best rebounders in the league position wise at SG, SF and PF.

I sort of wish Pippen came into the league a couple of years earlier. He could have really used Jordan's injury in '86 as an opportunity to develop his scoring skills a lot more when he was young (and despite playing with someone who took 25+ shots a game, he still developed significantly and became a 20-22 ppg at 50% type of guy). There was a lot of untapped scoring potential in Pippen imo. Especially in the early years, I could see him getting close to 25 ppg as the game was more open in 1988-1991 than 1994.

Fatal9 has gone beyond being a troll. We need to invent a new word for him. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Fatal9 has gone beyond being a troll. We need to invent a new word for him. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]


Yup, he must just be a troll because your opinions are unrefuted facts and you don't agree with him. :lol

[QUOTE=branslowski]Because he's highlighting the greatness of Scottie Pippen and your just a pissed of MJ fan who hates anything associated with him?

Might I add pissed off for no reason...MJ=GOAT. Period. MJ>>>Pippen. Period.

What more does these MJ groupies want? A Blow Job for Jordan and a hand job for his friend Bugz Bunny?:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

You might want to read his post again and pay attention to certain language. THAT'S why he's a troll.

[QUOTE=branslowski]Because he's highlighting the greatness of Scottie Pippen and your just a pissed of MJ fan who hates anything associated with him?[/QUOTE]
funny thing is, no one has posted his 1990 playoffs run in detail before (stats for that aren't available on internet as far as I know). dude is clearly pissed that Pippen did much better than he thought, and was one of the best second options in the league (commentators and opposing coaching staffs even saying he would be #1 on most teams). apparently anything not from the perspective of a Jordan fan is trolling, especially if it's facts and observations like my post earlier. btw, i can't recall how many times loki has posted the game 7 boxscore completely out of context, followed shortly by "[I]see...Jordan had no help before 1991![/I]". another Pippen myth busted though :D

[QUOTE=Fatal9]Great post :bowdown: . Something like this was needed considering how ignorant 90% of ISH on Pippen.

This is just from '91-'93. He was beasting for most of the 1990 playoffs too. I know boxscores from games before 1991 aren't available, so I'll lift the curtain on Pippen's 1990 playoffs run, when apparently he wasn't a legit second option or "giving enough help" according to a misinformed group....

Game 1 vs. Bucks - 17/10/13 - opens up the playoffs with a triple double
Game 2 vs. Bucks - 32/8/8/4 - yes, this is Pippen's line, not Jordan's. 24 year old second options aren't suppose to have games like this! He dominated defensively as well.
Game 3 vs. Bucks - 21/9/9/2 - MJ and Alvin Robertson were having a shootout. In the first half MJ was picking up the scoring load and Robertson went off for 24 pts on him, and it was continuing midway through the third until Pippen came on him and held AR to like 7-8 pts afterwards (most were in transition or off switches btw).
Game 4 vs. Bucks - 20/11/2/4 - if this game was competitive, we'd be looking at a 28/12/5/5 type of game. led the Bulls in this game to close out the Bucks. [/QUOTE]

I didn't realize Pippen was that good in 1990. I'll have to check out some more games from 1990, particularly the playoffs.

[QUOTE]This is a very important point. He averaged 2.5 offensive boards in a season and got around 3.5 in some of his playoff runs. Offensive rebounds are tougher to get, and are usually more accurate at determining a player's rebounding skill (considering how many defensive rebounds go uncontested). To put things in perspective, a great rebounding SF like Lebron doesn't even average half the number of offensive rebounds that Pippen did. Even Jordan, who was a great offensive rebounder for a perimeter player never got above 2. Can't count how many times Pippen got Bulls extra possessions during key moments in playoff games, same with Grant. Rebounders like Pippen, Grant and later Rodman (along with Jordan too), are why Bulls never missed having an elite center. They had the best rebounders in the league position wise at SG, SF and PF.[/QUOTE]

Good point about offensive rebounds, a lot of people overlook that when judging rebounders.

[QUOTE]I sort of wish Pippen came into the league a couple of years earlier. He could have really used Jordan's injury in '86 as an opportunity to develop his scoring skills a lot more when he was young (and despite playing with someone who took 25+ shots a game, he still developed significantly and became a 20-22 ppg at 50% type of guy). There was a lot of untapped scoring potential in Pippen imo. Especially in the early years, I could see him getting close to 25 ppg as the game was more open in 1988-1991 than 1994.[/QUOTE]

Good point. Pippen is one of the best players I've seen in the open court and he'd be great in that type of ststem in his prime.

[quote]I didn't realize Pippen was that good in 1990. I'll have to check out some more games from 1990, particularly the playoffs.[/quote]

Scottie actually had a very good season in 1990, unfortunately the game 7 against Detroit has overshadowed it over the years. Had he not been dealing with that migraine, people would probably view that season much differently.

[QUOTE=branslowski]Ok I have to admit...I :oldlol: @ This gem:



Is this a fact Loki? Or did he make this up?....

I know Jordan did more than just shoot.

:oldlol: This is why I never try to get in these "In the Past" debates...Because they go on and on and can never change because the facts within the topic never change.[/QUOTE]

Hawkins did guard MJ for much of the series, but what's telling is his language (Hawkins was 6'3", not 6'2", and was never called a bad defender by anyone; in fact, his defense was routinely praised, even in that series. He was no all-league defender, but he was solid). They tried Ron Anderson (6'7") on MJ too, but of course no player 6'6" or above had any chance of staying in front of 1990 Jordan, so that ended quickly. Dawkins rarely, if ever, guarded MJ that series (I have the entire series on DVD and most games are up on YT to verify).

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]I didn't realize Pippen was that good in 1990. I'll have to check out some more games from 1990, particularly the playoffs. [/QUOTE]
Game 2 from the Bucks series is really great. Jordan and Pippen were both playing at a high level. It was very physical too...the famous foul when Jordan drives baseline and gets ganged up by 3 guys and one of them powerslams him to the court is from that game iirc. But yes, Pippen was very good. He took his game to another level in the playoffs. Even in his rookie year, he saved his best game of the season for a do or die game vs Cavs in the playoffs. Roundball mentioned it in another thread, though I haven't watched it yet.

[QUOTE=branslowski]Ok I have to admit...I :oldlol: @ This gem:



Is this a fact Loki? Or did he make this up?....

I know Jordan did more than just shoot.

:oldlol: This is why I never try to get in these "In the Past" debates...Because they go on and on and can never change because the facts within the topic never change.[/QUOTE]
That was clearly the Bulls strategy though. Seriously brans, watch even one game from this series. You have a 6'2 or 6'3 guy, who is already a poor defender on you, you are the best player in the league, you have every physical advantage imaginable on the guy...you think they were not going to exploit that? I was literally LOLing at the matchup, it was completely unfair. Like matching a center against a SF. There's a reason he took 30 shots in game 1, 36 in game 2, 34 in game 3, 31 in game 4 and settled with 26 in game 5 (this is unusually high even for MJ). I am not criticizing him, he would be stupid not to take 30+ shots every game that series (and he lit it up like he should have). I was pointing out the different strategy in the Sixers series resulting in Pippen handling the ball much less than usual. I don't know how anyone who watched the series can think otherwise. Dawkins may be an "average" defender like loki says, but I've seen Alvin Robertson rise from his grave to have a career playoff game against him (and he didn't have Jordan's physical advantages as AR was like 6'2 or 6'3 too I think).

[QUOTE=Alhazred]Scottie actually had a very good season in 1990, unfortunately the game 7 against Detroit has overshadowed it over the years. Had he not been dealing with that migraine, people would probably view that season much differently.[/QUOTE]
I can't even walk if I get a migraine, especially one bad enough to blur your vision. I would almost rather play with a physical injury like a strain than one that completely messes with your senses like that, especially in a sport where you need to be very precise. It was unfortunate timing, though I think the Bulls would still lose, they just couldn't win on the road that series. Pippen still played fairly well in the first couple of road games was averaging 17 ppg on 50% but the rest of the guys just didn't have it going (MJ only 39.5% but made up for it by exploding in the following home games).

[quote]I can't even walk if I get a migraine, especially one bad enough to blur your vision. I would almost rather play with a physical injury like a strain than one that completely messes with your senses like that, especially in a sport where you need to be very precise. It was unfortunate timing, though I think the Bulls would still lose, they just couldn't win on the road that series. Pippen still played fairly well in the first couple of road games was averaging 17 ppg on 50% but the rest of the guys just didn't have it going (MJ only 39.5% but made up for it by exploding in the following home games).[/quote]

Kareem complained about his reoccurring migraines frequently throughout his career. In the 85 Finals he was actually puking from one before a game but still managed to put up a 30/10. They're not something that should be written off lightly.

Honestly, I think if Scottie had been healthy that game the Bulls could have caused an upset. Imagine how epic it would have been beating the "Bad Boys" on their own court!

[QUOTE=Fatal9]Gwho is already a poor defender on you[/quote]

Where are you getting that Hawkins was a poor defender from? No one has ever said that about him besides you. Commentators/analysts (even during that series) praised his defense in general. He was a solid defender.

[quote] you are the best player in the league, you have every physical advantage imaginable on the guy...you think they were not going to exploit that?[/quote]

You'd be right if MJ were raining jumpers over Hawkins all day, but instead he was routinely taking him off the dribble. A 6'6" guy should not be able to routinely explode past a 6'3" guy who is a solid defender, but he did time and again.

[quote]Dawkins may be an "average" defender like loki says[/quote]

Dawkins (not Hawkins) never guarded MJ that series save for isolated switches.

[quote] but I've seen Alvin Robertson rise from his grave to have a career playoff game against him (and he didn't have Jordan's physical advantages as AR was like 6'2 or 6'3 too I think).[/quote]

AR [i]should have been[/i] significantly quicker than Jordan and able to stay in front of him (especially given his defensive ability as a former DPOY and multiple time first teamer), but instead (like Hawkins) got routinely beat off the dribble. AR also had good hops. I take it you didn't see the many nice dunks he had in that series.

Most of AR's points that game came in transition and on defensive scrambles anyway.

[quote=branslowski]Now if your same comment was made by a well known respected Jordan fan, im pretty sure Loki wouldn't have a problem with it.[/quote]

No Jordan lover or objective fan in general would make that comment, because Hawkins flat out was not a poor defender by any stretch. It's objectively false. No one besides Fatal9 has ever said such a thing, and in fact many people have said just the opposite: that he was a solid/good defender. Unless you're looking at the [B]RESULTS[/B] (i.e., MJ averaging like 45/7/7/52% against him that series) and drawing conclusions from that, but if that's the case then anyone who any great scorer has ever lit up is a poor defender. It's classic [I]post hoc ergo propter hoc[/I] fallacious reasoning. I guess ARob and Paul Pressey (two multi-time defensive first/second teamers) were also poor defenders since MJ averaged 37/8/7/53% on them in the 1990 playoffs. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=branslowski]Ok I have to admit...I :oldlol: @ This gem:



Is this a fact Loki? Or did he make this up?....

I know Jordan did more than just shoot.

:oldlol: This is why I never try to get in these "In the Past" debates...Because they go on and on and can never change because the facts within the topic never change.[/QUOTE]
All Mj did was shoot? Brans listening to a troll like Faketal.
Game 3 [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGhvH7SSNW8[/url]
gm4 [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1pMxyP6UcY[/url]

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]AR [i]should have been[/i] significantly quicker than Jordan and able to stay in front of him (especially given his defensive ability as a former DPOY and multiple time first teamer), but instead (like Hawkins) got routinely beat off the dribble. AR also had good hops. I take it you didn't see the many nice dunks he had in that series.[/QUOTE]
Um, what does this have to do with what I was saying? I was talking about AR vs. Hawkins in '91 not his matchup with Jordan. I've only seen one game from the Sixers-Bucks series in '91 and watching AR go from putting like 13 ppg in the season to torching the dude for 30+ and average like 24 ppg on 60%, isn't exactly going to help me think he was a "good" defender. This is really for another thread (maybe you should make a Jordan in 1990 playoffs thread :rolleyes:). I was pointing out the reason for high FGA by Jordan during the series, and the Bulls strategy to exploit the mismatch (almost 32 shots a game in that series vs. 24 for the rest of the playoffs). BTW, I watched this series in the last two weeks. It was the only one missing from the 1990 run that I hadn't seen, and lol @ you acting like Jordan wasn't simply rising up and shooting for most of it. He drove too, like always, but it's a joke to act like he wasn't making full use of the matchup.

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Dawkins (not Hawkins) never guarded MJ that series save for isolated switches.[/QUOTE]
confused the two. I meant Hawkins (as you were referring to him).

[QUOTE=Fatal9] I've only seen one game from the Sixers-Bucks series in '91 and watching AR go from putting like 13 ppg in the season to torching the dude for 30+ and average like 24 ppg on 60%, isn't exactly going to help me think he was a "good" defender.[/quote]

Regarding AR's increased production vs. the Sixers:

1) Robertson's minutes increased from 32.1 mpg during the regular season to 39.3 mpg in the playoffs that year, a ~23% jump.

2) Ricky Pierce (22.5 ppg) and Dale Ellis (19.3 ppg), the Bucks' two leading scorers that year (they were traded for each other midway through the season; only one was on the team at any given point, but you're still losing a 19-23 ppg scorer for the playoffs) missed the playoffs, leading to an increased scoring role for ARob in the postseason. His FGA went from 11.2 to 16.3 accordingly.

3) It's a 3 game sample and he had two very good games, which is far too small a sample size to pass judgment on.

You act as if AR's role, minutes, and usage all stayed the same and he just exploded. No.

MJ does jumpers if 6-3 or 6-7 guys are on him. Look at this game [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mwSpGOH8X4[/url] He took jumpers all gm. Mj does wat he feels like doing. The knicks forced him into alot of jumpers in 92, but yet he still was taking nuts on wilkins/Starks/ewing

[quote=Fatal9]And then on to the Sixers series. Bulls had a great matchup again with Jordan getting a 6'2 poor defensive shooting guard on him and the Bulls decided to exploit it for all it was worth. It was a good strategy to give MJ an unrestrained green light since he literally had to just shoot, with Hawkins/Dawkins having 0 chance of bothering his shot[/quote]
Try again, Kobe fan. Not only was Hawk superior as a [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2PJ8j14MFA#t=7m8s"]defensive man[/URL] to your idol, but he was also a superior 3 point marksman and entry passer.
[quote]
and the lane being "anchored" by Charles Barkley[/quote]
Don't underestimate the Mahorn & Barkley in the paint. Superior rebounders and defensive intimidators & stoppers to that of the bigs on your new favorite team. It astounds me how such such poor defensive seven foot stiffs can be so effective. NBA Basketball was once played with more muscle, position, & savvy rather than mere fragile length.

[IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/iel7v8.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE]. I can't think of a defensive small forward as good as him, and the only players I can think of being as capable in the point forward role are Lebron and perhaps Grant Hill in his prime. Not to mention that he was a good 3 point shooter, could post up and score with a little jump hook or bank shot, he was excellent in the open court and a great penetrator. Of course with his 7'2" wingspan and athleticism he was also one of the best finishers of his day. All of that is why you count on him to average an efficient 19-22 ppg.

And finally, a part of Pippen's game that goes overlooked so often is his rebounding. How many other small forwards in the last 20 years were getting 8-9 rpg?[/QUOTE]

:applause: Great post. Was there anything on the court Pippen could not do? Yeah, he was not great at everything. He was never more than a good three point shooter but he was good to great at every facet of the game. He had no weakness.

Regarding 8-9 boards, the only one I can think of is Hill. It isn't just his raw totals that are impressive. They look even better in context. In 94' the other top SF's were grabbing 5-6 boards (Wilkins, Mullin, Schrempf, and Mashburn) while Pippen was at 9 rpg! Pippen was 23rd in the league in rebounding in 94' and 17th-18th in 95' until Jordan, himself a great rebounder at his position, came back. Even with Rodman gobbling up so many rebounds he averaged 6.5-7 ish boards on the second three-peat team. People also forget that in 2000 it wasn't towering Sabonis or PF Wallace who led Portland in rebounding in the playoffs. It was a 6'7" old man whose body had been ravaged by a myriad of injuries and mileage (10+ seasons, deep playoff runs practically every year, 2 Olympics).

[QUOTE]This is just from '91-'93. He was beasting for most of the 1990 playoffs too. I know boxscores from games before 1991 aren't available, so I'll lift the curtain on Pippen's 1990 playoffs run, when apparently he wasn't a legit second option or "giving enough help" according to a misinformed group....[/QUOTE]

Great stuff on 90'! The OP is part of a series since Pippen had so many great playoff moments you can't fit them into one thread. :bowdown: There will be 1994-98, 1999-03 and 1988-90 threads too.

[QUOTE]I sort of wish Pippen came into the league a couple of years earlier. He could have really used Jordan's injury in '86 as an opportunity to develop his scoring skills a lot more when he was young (and despite playing with someone who took 25+ shots a game, he still developed significantly and became a 20-22 ppg at 50% type of guy). There was a lot of untapped scoring potential in Pippen imo. Especially in the early years, I could see him getting close to 25 ppg as the game was more open in 1988-1991 than 1994.[/QUOTE]

Good points. I too wish Pippen was a bit younger. If only Pippen was 31 or 32, not 34, in 2000... (or alternatively, the Malone charging injury in the 98' finals did not happen and Pip was able to decline in a natural fashion, instead of suddenly going from a top 5 superstar to a borderline all-star as he did literally overnight due to that injury!)

[QUOTE]
Might I add pissed off for no reason...MJ=GOAT. Period. MJ>>>Pippen. Period.

What more does these MJ groupies want? A Blow Job for Jordan and a hand job for his friend Bugz Bunny?[/QUOTE]

Great question. What difference, in reality, does it make for Jordan's legacy if Pippen is rated 17th or 37th all-time? Jordan is still Jordan! :hammerhead:

[QUOTE], i can't recall how many times loki has posted the game 7 boxscore completely out of context, followed shortly by "see...Jordan had no help before 1991!".[/QUOTE]

:D Nothing on the rest of the 1990 playoffs. No mentions of his injuries in 96', 97', 98' when they talk about Pippen's FG %'s in the playoffs in those years. (funny how they never post his FG %'s from 1991-93 or never mention that his points per shot were solid even in 1996-98 but he was taking a lot of 3's) No mention of what happened in the 98' finals when discussing his record from 1999-2003. There actually are several people here who think Pippen in 99' or 00' was basically the same player as 98' Pippen. We know why some of them hold that position but others hold it because the constant out of context propaganda regarding his record in Portland. 2000 was one of my favorite Pippen seasons yet these guys try to turn it into a negative. :oldlol:

[QUOTE]Scottie actually had a very good season in 1990, unfortunately the game 7 against Detroit has overshadowed it over the years. Had he not been dealing with that migraine, people would probably view that season much differently.[/QUOTE]

The problem isn't really random people. It is people with a certain agenda. How come you never hear of the bad performances some others had in similar situations? You can cherry pick with anyone who was in the playoffs a lot. For example, Game 7 84' finals for Magic Johnson. I guess Magic sucked in the playoffs too? :mad:

[QUOTE]Even in his rookie year, he saved his best game of the season for a do or die game vs Cavs in the playoffs. Roundball mentioned it in another thread, though I haven't watched it yet.[/QUOTE]

That was also his first career start. Think of the pressure he was under. He was a rookie (with a bad back--another fact you never hear about). Game 5. Win or get eliminated. If the team loses, it is the team's fault. If they win, it is all Jordan. How does the "choker" respond? With the best game of his career at that point.

[QUOTE]Kareem complained about his reoccurring migraines frequently throughout his career. In the 85 Finals he was actually puking from one before a game but still managed to put up a 30/10. They're not something that should be written off lightly.[/QUOTE]

Yeah--Kareem still has that problem. He uses weed for his migraines.

[QUOTE]Stay real...This is why you, Round-Ball, Shaqattack, Loki aka Oldschoolbball, are my favorite posters.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. :cheers:

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]....[/QUOTE]
Right. Increased minutes automatically makes have a career series :rolleyes:. He may very well be an average defender, but anytime I see this dude he's always getting torched, even when he wasn't physically outmatched. In regards to the AR-MJ matchup, I think that hard foul might have been the best thing that happened to MJ that series. He came out in completely jumpshot-mode in G3 and dropped 48. It was funny seeing AR (who does have good hops like you mentioned...even somewhat dunked on Jordan in the series) try to make up for a 4 inch difference (like getting a SF to defend a C) and attempt to meet Jordan's release point, and MJ just completely disrespecting his reach and simply firing over him. Again, I would rather this be in another thread. You're getting awfully emotional over a comment regarding something that is pretty obvious (that a. Jordan had a very nice height/length advantage and b. he and the Bulls were exploiting it very nicely).

I never like to get into the Jordan vs Pippen thing because it's often just one side diminishing the accomplishments of the other. I do think that Pippen can be underrated, I think he was a fantastic player and a legit superstar. His all around skillset is among the best I've ever seen. As for Jordan, if I had to pick a best player to ever play the game, it'd probably be Jordan, but I don't think it's fair to say having not seen much prime Kareem or Wilt.

[QUOTE=branslowski]Stay real...This is why you, Round-Ball, Shaqattack, Loki aka Oldschoolbball, are my favorite posters.[/QUOTE]

Glad to hear it, I appreciate it.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]I never like to get into the Jordan vs Pippen thing because it's often just one side diminishing the accomplishments of the other. I do think that Pippen can be underrated, I think he was a fantastic player and a legit superstar. His all around skillset is among the best I've ever seen. As for Jordan, if I had to pick a best player to ever play the game, it'd probably be Jordan, but I don't think it's fair to say having not seen much prime Kareem or Wilt.



Glad to hear it, I appreciate it.[/QUOTE]
Their isn't any Mj vs Pippen. MJ>>>>>>Pippen

[QUOTE=juju151111]Their isn't any Mj vs Pippen. MJ>>>>>>Pippen[/QUOTE]

Obviously nobody is arguing Pippen was as good as Jordan, I meant the arguments always seem to be either a Jordan or Pippen fan trying to diminish the other's accomplishments to make their favorite player look better. I try to stay out of that.

[QUOTE=juju151111] MJ>>>>>>Pippen[/QUOTE]

[B]Everyone[/B] agrees on that. :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]
The problem isn't really random people. It is people with a certain agenda. How come you never hear of the bad performances some others had in similar situations? You can cherry pick with anyone who was in the playoffs a lot. For example, Game 7 84' finals for Magic Johnson. I guess Magic sucked in the playoffs too? :mad:[/quote]

Believe it or not, it's not simply diehard Jordan jockers who believe this. I've talked to some old school Pistons and Celtics fans back in my Youtube days of basketball discussion who stick him with that label. Well, that's what the dumbasses think, at least. I remember this one Bird fanboy who called Scottie a "dumb kid". :wtf: He hated Jordan, too.

By the way, good point about certain legends having their choke moments forgotten. Larry Bird actually had a three game streak of scoring 8, 8 then 12 points in three consecutive games in the 1981 Finals. He made up for it with excellent passing and rebounding, but it's funny to hear of a guy like Bird having shooting troubles, especially against a team that didn't even win half it's games that year! Of course, he and Magic both deserve the title of clutch. Same for Scottie. :cheers:

Speaking of Magic, check his 1981 performance in the first round. He actually air balled a game deciding shot! Bill Simmons mentions it in his book.

[quote]Yeah--Kareem still has that problem. He uses weed for his migraines.[/quote]

Yep, I've read about that. Him, Parish and Walton are the greatest pot-smoking centers of all-time, imo. :lol