What is Kobe's legacy if he beats Miami's big 3 in the finals?

I think most would agree Kobe is in that 9-10 range at the moment. Would beating Lebron and Wade in the finals jump him up to maybe the top 5 if he manages to beat these two superstars while winning his 6th championship and winning his 3rd finals MVP along with completing a Lakers 3-peat. A lot are expecting L.A to beat Miami due to the size factor but does Kobe leading Lakers to another 3-peat jump him even higher?

[QUOTE=New York Knicks]The Lakers are still the favorites.[/QUOTE]
wrong..with that being said +300 (+300 lakers winning vs +160 miami odds) is great, i might have to lay a hundo on that.

Beating the big 3 would turn Kobe's legacy up a notch. Cause the Lakers defeated one of the biggest obstacles which are the Heat.

Any analyst will tell you the Lakers are still the favorites. No combination of wing players can battle against LA's ridiculous frontcourt rotation.

Definetly top 9.

[QUOTE=New York Knicks]Any analyst will tell you the Lakers are still the favorites. No combination of wing players can battle against LA's ridiculous frontcourt rotation.[/QUOTE]
i agree 100%..these lines are obviously trying to fool the public. just like the lakers/celtics line 3 years ago

[QUOTE=All Net]I think most would agree Kobe is in that 9-10 range at the moment. Would beating Lebron and Wade in the finals jump him up to maybe the top 5 if he manages to beat these two superstars while winning his 6th championship and winning his 3rd finals MVP along with completing a Lakers 3-peat. A lot are expecting L.A to beat Miami due to the size factor but does Kobe leading Lakers to another 3-peat jump him even higher?[/QUOTE]

I don't entertain all-time player lists often but off hand, I'd guess you're selling him a little bit short. I can see why you would aim relatively conservative. It's a sensitive topic. People catch feelings over it. It's real cute. Still, it begs the question:

How many NBA players can lay claim to:

25,000+ Career Points
5,000+ Career Playoff Points
5 NBA Championships
2 Finals MVPs
8 All-NBA 1st Team
8 All-Def 1st Team

And I don't mean x player has 25,000 points, y player has 2 finals mvps. I mean as a whole package. Those are just his basic career accomplishments through age 31.

[u]Those are the facts.[/u]

Most intelligent observers have Kobe in the Top-10 right now. IMHO, another ring (no matter who it is against) vaults him into the top-6 (Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, and Kareem), and ahead of Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, and Bird. Not only that, but as was posted previously...Kobe is going to be in some rareified air statistically by the time he retires. Barring injury, he will probably play at least another 4-5 years. There is no telling where he will finish on most "expert's" lists, but he conceivably be a top-5 player.

[QUOTE=jlauber]Most intelligent observers have Kobe in the Top-10 right now. [/QUOTE]

Intelligence has nothing to do with opinion.

If he beats Miami Thrice, it will hurt his legacy. They will say "Kobe was so mean, and didn't let Lebron get a ring".

[QUOTE=Scott Baker]Intelligence has nothing to do with opinion.[/QUOTE]


There is opinion...and then there is INTELLIGENT opinion. I don't think anyone with any intelligence would claim that Samuel Dalembert is the GOAT.

He will surpass Magic as the greatest Laker of All-time

[QUOTE=jlauber]There is opinion...and then there is INTELLIGENT opinion. I don't think anyone with any intelligence would claim that Samuel Dalembert is the GOAT.[/QUOTE]

Greatest lists are all opinion though. No matter how ridiculously stupid or intelligent, it all boils down to opinion.

There is never a definitive list.

[QUOTE=Sarcastic]If he beats Miami Thrice, it will hurt his legacy. [B]They will say "Kobe was so mean, and didn't let Lebron get a ring".[/B][/QUOTE]

This,

nuff said.

[QUOTE=Scott Baker]Greatest lists are all opinion though. No matter how ridiculously stupid or intelligent, it all boils down to opinion.

There is never a definitive list.[/QUOTE]
Intelligent lists are the only ones accepted. Post a list thats remotely off on ISH and you'll get loled and called a retard for 5 pages.

Only one year?

It depends on what happens after. If Lebron/Wade and Co dominate the league winning 5+ titles the rest of the way, I think it will boost him up a little. Maybe to the six spot, but if he wins multiple times, he's top five no question.

If he averages above 25 points above 5 assist and 5 rebounds + 2 steals + shoots above 45% and they win = GOAT

we'l see

[QUOTE=rzp]Huh everyone talking about how the Lakers frontcourt its the main reason why Lakers are still favorite and (some say) will destroy the Miami Heat ....and Kobe would be top 5 because of that?:wtf: .Just like the other 5 Kobe rings, its an amazing player on a amazing loaded team. Winning another ring on this situation doesnt make him better than 5 years ago when he was playing with Smush Parker's.[/QUOTE]
What? So adding rings to your resume as the man doesn't boost your legacy? Especially against the most stacked team of the last twenty years in terms of raw talent? Name another team since magic's era that had the best player in the league, the 2nd/3rd best player in the league, and the second best PF in the league on the same team. You can't. If kobe plays well against them and wins another ring he's top 5.

The second fiddle argument is rather weak IMO. The only season it's even arguable from my point of view is 2000, when Kobe became a 22+ ppg scorer and sprained his ankle in the Finals against Indiana. What's my argument?

Wade 06 playoffs: 28.4 ppg/5.9 rpg/5.7 apg

Kobe 2001: 29.4 ppg/7.3 rpg/6.1 apg
Kobe 2002: 26.6 ppg/5.8 rpg/4.6 apg

So basically, Kobe as a sidekick is equivalent to Wade's most heralded playoff run as the Man? Ridiculous.

Finals are what kill Kobe's chances and any non-homer will admit this. However, even that is vastly overstated. You hear much about 2000 and 2004 and nothing of 2002 when he averaged 27 ppg on 52%. People downplay an otherwise impressive 32/5/7 2009 Finals against Orlando, the No. 1 ranked defense in the league that year. They'll also claim 2010 as the "worst ever". Ridiculous. Compare to Jordan's '96 Finals.

MJ's first 3peat sets him well apart, however.

It's all about how he plays. If Miami dominates this year and meets L.A in the finals and Kobe actually has a GREAT finals it would be extremely good for his legacy. If he shoots 38% and scores like 26 points and It's a TEAM effort than obviously it's still great cause he got his 6th ring but wouldn't be the same thing IMO.

Kobe's legacy is in a great situation tho. He's just got to the run with it.

[QUOTE=tpols]What? So adding rings to your resume as the man doesn't boost your legacy? [B][I]Especially against the most stacked team of the last twenty years in terms of raw talent? Name another team since magic's era that had the best player in the league, the 2nd/3rd best player in the league, and the second best PF in the league on the same team. You can't.[/I][/B] If kobe plays well against them and wins another ring he's top 5.[/QUOTE]

Adding rings to boost your legacy its a matter of situation, its about domination, how the player embarass the oponent...people say Wilt its a top-3 even with 2 ring, one as sidekick, some people say Hakeem its ahead of Shaq even with half of his rings. TD legacy its highly boosted because he dominated and won it all with young Parker and Manu. MJ won 6 times without a dominant frontcourt. Kobe never dominated like that, actually he sucked big time on many finals, u can't put automatically him at top five just counting his rings as a 25-5-5 player :rolleyes: (just to turn off that Robert Horry bs).
About the bolded, 2004 lakers say hi (not only more raw talent but also mutch more balance)...

Well, first off, the Lakers win more often in spite of Kobe than due to Kobe.

Second, nobody knows how good the Heat will be.

Third, to many people, Kobe's legacy will be that of someone who so thoroughly trashed his teammates, ownership, and organization (admitted implicity he wasn't good enough) that he was able to receive an illicit trade that was able to get him championships.

[QUOTE=Bring-Your-Js]
Wade 06 playoffs: 28.4 ppg/5.9 rpg/5.7 apg

Kobe 2001: 29.4 ppg/7.3 rpg/6.1 apg
Kobe 2002: 26.6 ppg/5.8 rpg/4.6 apg

So basically, Kobe as a sidekick is equivalent to Wade's most heralded playoff run as the Man? Ridiculous.

[/QUOTE]

No its not ridiculous... check Miami's second best scorer numbers.

Then check the freakin insane Lakers Shaq's numbers.

Wade carried the team, Kobe not. Thats the little difference

Kobe never carried the team in his 5 rings btw.

It really comes down to how he plays, like Nuggetsfan said. It's a boost either way, but a bigger one if he has an incredible series.

[QUOTE=thomaspynchon]Well, first off, the Lakers win more often in spite of Kobe than due to Kobe.

Second, nobody knows how good the Heat will be.

Third, to many people, Kobe's legacy will be that of someone who so thoroughly trashed his teammates, ownership, and organization (admitted implicity he wasn't good enough) that he was able to receive an illicit trade that was able to get him championships.[/QUOTE]

Strong first post :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=rzp]Huh everyone talking about how the Lakers frontcourt its the main reason why Lakers are still favorite and (some say) will destroy the Miami Heat ....and Kobe would be top 5 because of that? .Just like the other 5 Kobe rings, its an amazing player on a amazing loaded team. Winning another ring on this situation doesnt make him better than 5 years ago when he was playing with Smush Parker's.[/QUOTE]

wtf? In that case Wade was a player who happend to play on a loaded team. So if he wins 3 more he gets no credit for playing along side James,Bosh. Lebron shouldnt either, Oh and tell Magic and Kareem to return their rings for playing in loaded teams, tell that to MJ as well. Oh and Don't forget Bill Russell. BTW Wlit didn;t win until he was in a loaded team.

His legacy is what it is right now, the best player of his generation easily.

[IMG]http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs395.snc4/45820_655549267156_30502284_35977347_6552573_n.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=chazzy]It really comes down to how he plays, like Nuggetsfan said. It's a boost either way, but a bigger one if he has an incredible series.



Strong first post :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I have posted here before but lost my account info.

But I don't see how you (presumably a Kobe/Lakers fan) can explain away a 6-24 performance in a Finals Game 7. The only difference between Kobe and guys like Dirk and Lebron are his teammates (although Lebron no longer has this excuse).

[QUOTE=rezznor][IMG]http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs395.snc4/45820_655549267156_30502284_35977347_6552573_n.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
You realize this is dissing lebron right?

Well, the thread title starts from a wrong standpoint:

either its Kobe vs Lebron or its Kobe AND Gasol vs the Big Three

Kobe 's nutters make it sound as if it were Kobe standing up against the whole Miami team on his own and THAT FAILS :facepalm

[QUOTE=thomaspynchon]Sorry, I have posted here before but lost my account info.

But I don't see how you (presumably a Kobe/Lakers fan) can explain away a 6-24 performance in a Finals Game 7. The only difference between Kobe and guys like Dirk and Lebron are his teammates (although Lebron no longer has this excuse).[/QUOTE]
Eh, that game was all defense:
Rondo - 14 points on 13 shots
Ray - 13 points on 14 shots
Sheed - 11 points on 11 shots
Artest - 20 points on 18 shots
Gasol - 19 points on 16 shots
Odom - 7 points on 8 shots
Kobe - 23 points on 24 shots

Basically every player in that game was scoring about 1 point per shot. Kobe's performance was not out of line with the game at all.

[QUOTE=TROLL_HUNTER]Well, the thread title starts from a wrong standpoint:

either its Kobe vs Lebron or its Kobe AND Gasol vs the Big Three

Kobe 's nutters make it sound as if it were Kobe standing up against the whole Miami team on his own and THAT FAILS :facepalm[/QUOTE]

Yeah I was thinking this as well. The last time Kobe played without a legit star, he was busy choking against the Suns.

[QUOTE=thomaspynchon]Yeah I was thinking this as well. The last time Kobe played without a legit star, he was busy choking against the Suns.[/QUOTE]
And the last time lebron played without a legit star, he was choking against the Celtics.:confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=barbaroi]Eh, that game was all defense:
Rondo - 14 points on 13 shots
Ray - 13 points on 14 shots
Sheed - 11 points on 11 shots
Artest - 20 points on 18 shots
Gasol - 19 points on 16 shots
Odom - 7 points on 8 shots
Kobe - 23 points on 24 shots

Basically every player in that game was scoring about 1 point per shot. Kobe's performance was not out of line with the game at all.[/QUOTE]

True. But he had about 2 good games that series, 2-3 atrocious ones, and 2 decent ones. He wouldn't even have gotten to that point if not for his great teammates. In fact, he wouldn't have made it out of the first round if not for his great teammates.

I'm not trying to "hate" here but this is what I see as the truth. No one else last season had the luxury of stringing together bad games and still winning, except Tim Duncan.

[QUOTE=tpols]And the last time lebron played without a legit star, he was choking against the Celtics.:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I don't think that much of LeBron. He has no heart at all.

[QUOTE=baseketball4life]His legacy is what it is right now, the best player of his generation easily.[/QUOTE]

LOL. love the absurd use of "easily"

shaq and duncan are both easily the best players of this generation dude.
you would think in 12,000 plus posts you would know that.

kobe's peak doesn't even remotely compare to the dominance of shaq and duncan.

damn ISH ignores reality so much when it comes to Kobe.

Pau Gasol should start getting some mention as a great player if they beat the Heat.

[QUOTE=thomaspynchon]Sorry, I have posted here before but lost my account info.

But I don't see how you (presumably a Kobe/Lakers fan) can explain away a 6-24 performance in a Finals Game 7. The only difference between Kobe and guys like Dirk and Lebron are his teammates (although Lebron no longer has this excuse).[/QUOTE]

I get a kick out of posts like these...

Kobe had a bad SHOOTING night in that game seven. His teammates were of no help, and continually looked to Kobe to make the shots. In the meantime, Kobe's determination and grit, with his 15 rebounds and great defense, kept LA in the game...and the Lakers were champions.

How did Kobe do in the previous rounds? How did Kobe do in the San Antonio series throughout his career? Why is it that Kobe had FOUR post-seasons of over 30 ppg, and SEVEN higher than Bird's BEST scoring post-season?

And does anyone actually believe that Kobe will be remembered for demanding a trade a few years ago? Or for getting traded in his rookie year?

Do you think that Jordan is going to be remembered for his 5-19 shooting game in the Finals? Do you think that Jordan is going to be remembered for playing on five losing teams? Or that he basically quit in the Piston series in the late 80's? Or that he could barely get off the floor in his last two years? Or that he has been a horrible GM?

Kobe will go down in history as one of the greatest NBA players EVER. He will probably finish somewhere close to MJ, as well. Let's just get real here.

[QUOTE=thomaspynchon]Sorry, I have posted here before but lost my account info.

But I don't see how you (presumably a Kobe/Lakers fan) can explain away a 6-24 performance in a Finals Game 7. The only difference between Kobe and guys like Dirk and Lebron are his teammates (although Lebron no longer has this excuse).[/QUOTE]

Yeah he was pretty bad. Looked like he was pressing, but I thought he played ok down the stretch. But you stated:

1. [I]Lakers win more often in spite of Kobe,[/I] which is just a flat out lie. There's no backing to this, unless you think every Laker game is like that Game 7.

2. [I]Kobe's legacy will be that of someone who so thoroughly trashed his teammates, ownership, and organization (admitted implicity he wasn't good enough) that he was able to receive an illicit trade that was able to get him championships. [/I] Which just isn't true either. The only people who still think that are the morons who are stuck in 2007 and turned a blind eye to what he's done in the past 3 years because of a "rigged trade."

[QUOTE]He wouldn't even have gotten to that point if not for his great teammates.[/QUOTE]

And you can say that about pretty much every great player. This "stacked supporting cast" knock is getting old.

[QUOTE=chazzy]Yeah he was pretty bad. Looked like he was pressing, but I thought he played ok down the stretch. But you stated:

1. [I]Lakers win more often in spite of Kobe,[/I] which is just a flat out lie. There's no backing to this, unless you think every Laker game is like that Game 7.

2. [I]Kobe's legacy will be that of someone who so thoroughly trashed his teammates, ownership, and organization (admitted implicity he wasn't good enough) that he was able to receive an illicit trade that was able to get him championships. [/I] Which just isn't true either. The only people who still think that are the morons who are stuck in 2007 and turned a blind eye to what he's done in the past 3 years because of a "rigged trade."[/QUOTE]

Correct me if I am wrong, but did he not shoot extremely poorly against the Thunder?

Did Kobe not trash his organization?

Come on man, I think Kobe probably is the best player of his generation but he sure as hell isn't this one man team that people want to posit.