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What kind of player would you rather have and build around?
1) A player that can score in a lot of ways. Someone who you can rely on in the clutch and to always deliver. A great dribbler as well.
OR
2) A defensive player of the year candidate. Someone who hustles, grabs the boards and is always the lock down man. He can defend 4 positions and is the one you put on the other team's star.
:confusedshrug:
offensive player. being able to dominate in the clutch and consistently have an offense run through a player in theses situations is more valuable in my opinion.
Would kind of depend on their contract. On lower salary, I'd take #2 but on high salary, I'd take #1.
Both. Can't select one without the other.
Offensive player, unless the 2nd player is a DPOY C.
Defense can easily be replaced or made-up through team play. There's no such thing for offense. If you don't have top-level offensive talent, you have no hope of being a winning team.
So Allen Iverson or Scottie Pippen?
Yeah I'll take the latter.
[QUOTE=Indian guy]Defense can easily be replaced or made-up through team play. There's no such thing for offense. If you don't have top-level offensive talent, you have no hope of being a winning team.[/QUOTE]
Bingo.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]offensive player. being able to dominate in the clutch and consistently have an offense run through a player in theses situations is more valuable in my opinion.[/QUOTE]
Funny thing is, your team tried that way for about 7 years. Then they wised up and got some guys that can play some defense and went out and got themmselves a championship. Id think yyoud be on the offensive side.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]Funny thing is, your team tried that way for about 7 years. Then they wised up and got some guys that can play some defense and went out and got themmselves a championship. Id think yyoud be on the offensive side.[/QUOTE]
this is about 1 player...not a team.
good luck trying to win without somebody to take over in the clutch.
goes both ways. both can be great, but if i had to choose...i'd take the guy that is going to be there in those close games.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]Funny thing is, your team tried that way for about 7 years. Then they wised up and got some guys that can play some defense and went out and got themmselves a championship. Id think yyoud be on the offensive side.[/QUOTE]
We're talking about INDIVIDUALS here. A top-level offensive player that you can run your offense through is 100x more valuable than a Ben Wallace. Defense is easily replaceable.
[QUOTE=Indian guy]We're talking about INDIVIDUALS here. A top-level offensive player that you can run your offense through is 100x more valuable than a Ben Wallace. Defense is easily replaceable.[/QUOTE]
Even then. Are we comparing a bill russell to yao ming? Or like another poster said pippen and iverson? Even though the 2nd example may not be a good one because pippen could score..
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]offensive player. being able to dominate in the clutch and consistently have an offense run through a player in theses situations is more valuable in my opinion.[/QUOTE]
But think about it dmavs.... there's 4r quarters in every nba game you have to be able to get there. And I've seen more teams lose because thhey couldn't stop anybody than lose because they couldn't score.
And for every clutch offensive play that needed, there someone on the other side that needs to be clutch defensivly ie not fouling etc.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]But think about it dmavs.... there's 4r quarters in every nba game you have to be able to get there. And I've seen more teams lose because thhey couldn't stop anybody than lose because they couldn't score.
And for every clutch offensive play that needed, there someone on the other side that needs to be clutch defensivly ie not fouling etc.[/QUOTE]
close games are inevitable...and along with that clutch ability you are getting an elite offensive first option.
give me the offensive guy all day long. this is basically something like dirk vs pippen or dirk vs rodman.....not even close for me. dirk easily.
just my opinion though.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]this is about 1 player...not a team.
good luck trying to win without somebody to take over in the clutch.
goes both ways. both can be great, but if i had to choose...i'd take the guy that is going to be there in those close games.[/QUOTE]
And the more I think about it, based on previous conversations id had with you, even if were talking about a defensive oriented team vs it polar opposite, you'd still more than likely pick the offensive team. Am I right?
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]close games are inevitable...and along with that clutch ability you are getting an elite offensive first option.
give me the offensive guy all day long. this is basically something like dirk vs pippen or dirk vs rodman.....not even close for me. dirk easily.
just my opinion though.[/QUOTE]
Well obviously this is our opinion. But let's look at dirk. He shot 42% thiis past finals. It was the job the mavs did on james that won that series
[QUOTE=97 bulls]And the more I think about it, based on previous conversations id had with you, even if were talking about a defensive oriented team vs it polar opposite, you'd still more than likely pick the offensive team. Am I right?[/QUOTE]
not at all. a straight up offensive team has really never won.
but if the choice is a number 1 offensive option like carmelo vs iguodala or something...its not close for me.
you can surround a guy like melo or dirk with good defense and its a lot easier to do that in my opinion. i think having a guy that can be relied on to give you 25 plus a night and is reliable in the clutch is the most important aspect of single player can have.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]Well obviously this is our opinion. But let's look at dirk. He shot 42% thiis past finals. It was the job the mavs did on james that won that series[/QUOTE]
or how about Dirk taking over in the clutch....that didn't matter?
you know, when Dirk destroyed both Wade and Lebron late in games.
Both matter mate. I just think offense is more valuable in this scenario when its about an individual player.
offense of course. Theres a lot of defensive players in this league and they are paid for cheap. While offensive are harder to get. Its easier to play offense than defense so ill take the harder part.
offensive player, for sure. How many guys can you get 30 points on efficient shooting while still getting his teammates involved?
It's much easier to learn defense. Take for example tyson chandler, people knew he was a very good defensive player, then all a sudden playing alongside Dirk he became the best interior defender in the nba.
and the same can be applied to coaches. ill take dantoni over thibs any day. pjax never won because hes teams are just good defensively, they are also number 1 in offense with his triangle and in fact hes more of an offensive coach than a defensive coach.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]or how about Dirk taking over in the clutch....that didn't matter?
you know, when Dirk destroyed both Wade and Lebron late in games.
Both matter mate. I just think offense is more valuable in this scenario when its about an individual player.[/QUOTE]
And I bet heat fans would say that clucth defense was just as important. Youre looking at this scenario from one side. To be honest, like you said both are valuable. The OP made it very clear that this defensive player was capable of locking down 4 positions.
And I wouldn't go so far as to say dirk "destroyed" wade or james. He didn't defend them and they didn't defend him.
[QUOTE=brisbaneman]offensive player, for sure. How many guys can you get 30 points on efficient shooting while still getting his teammates involved?
It's much easier to learn defense. Take for example tyson chandler, people knew he was a very good defensive player, then all a sudden playing alongside Dirk he became the best interior defender in the nba.[/QUOTE]
Lol you can't teanch defense. You can teach techniques, but defense is about intensity.
As far as your chandler/dirk comparison, if I remember correct, dirk was considered a failure. That is before chandler joined the mavs.
[QUOTE=knicksman]and the same can be applied to coaches. ill take dantoni over thibs any day. pjax never won because hes teams are just good defensively, they are also number 1 in offense with his triangle and in fact hes more of an offensive coach than a defensive coach.[/QUOTE]
Why? What has he done? How many super talent offensive juggernaut teams has dantoni had and lost? With homecourt advantage no less.
Dantoni is a modern day don nelson. How many championships does nellly have as a coach?
[QUOTE=97 bulls]And I bet heat fans would say that clucth defense was just as important. Youre looking at this scenario from one side. To be honest, like you said both are valuable. The OP made it very clear that this defensive player was capable of locking down 4 positions.
And I wouldn't go so far as to say dirk "destroyed" wade or james. He didn't defend them and they didn't defend him.[/QUOTE]
I'm looking at it from one side? Saying both are important.
Here is the thing. You can't guard these elite offensive players consistently late in games....or at the very least its difficult.
And Dirk was a failure? A big LOL
I don't even know what you are talking about anymore. Give me an example of actual players in which you think this is true.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I'm looking at it from one side? Saying both are important.
Here is the thing. You can't guard these elite offensive players consistently late in games....or at the very least its difficult.
And Dirk was a failure? A big LOL
I don't even know what you are talking about anymore. Give me an example of actual players in which you think this is true.[/QUOTE]
Bill Russell
Someone brought up a comparison of andre iguodala and carmello anthony. I don't thiink AIs defense is on par with anthonys offense. Howevver, finding a defensive playerrr that good, is much harder than finding an offensive pllayer that can score 25 a night.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]Bill Russell
Someone brought up a comparison of andre iguodala and carmello anthony. I don't thiink AIs defense is on par with anthonys offense. Howevver, finding a defensive playerrr that good, is much harder than finding an offensive pllayer that can score 25 a night.[/QUOTE]
Bill Russell is probably the greatest defender ever. And like every player, it matters who you surround him with.
Give me a present example of two players...or at least an example within the modern era. An offensive player vs a defensive player in which you think the defensive guy is more valuable.
This doesn't work if you can only name the single greatest defender of all time who happened to be surrounded by the most stacked rosters ever.
Would you take Ben Wallace over Dirk? Stuff like that.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]Lol you can't teanch defense. You can teach techniques, but defense is about intensity.
As far as your chandler/dirk comparison, if I remember correct, dirk was considered a failure. That is before chandler joined the mavs.[/QUOTE]
perhaps casual/racist fans may have considered dirk a 'failure' even though he made the WCF and Finals and gets you 50 wins a season...my point is Chandler was known as a good defender but was interchangeable with any number of defensive minded big men and was traded several times. Now he plays alongside Dirk and becomes the 2nd best player on a title team and enters ESPN's list at #38...
It's significantly harder to be a great offensive player simply because teams/coaches/scouts/players gameplan you so hard and will pick up on any tendency quickly--it's like a Le Chatalier's principle in sports. Plus individual defense is a bit more difficult than team defense to pull off in the NBA.
Talking about defense, defensive players value go way up when it's a big man. Michael Cooper, Ron Artest, Gary Payton, etc...all impacted the defense much less than Hakeem, Dwight, Yao, KG, etc.
In the current NBA its unquestionably option 1.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Bill Russell is probably the greatest defender ever. And like every player, it matters who you surround him with.
Give me a present example of two players...or at least an example within the modern era. An offensive player vs a defensive player in which you think the defensive guy is more valuable.
This doesn't work if you can only name the single greatest defender of all time who happened to be surrounded by the most stacked rosters ever.
Would you take Ben Wallace over Dirk? Stuff like that.[/QUOTE]
I honestly can't think of a defensive player that is only one dimensional that I would take over dirk. Most of the guys I would take over dirk, are pretty good offensively too. Just probably not as good as he is offensively.
And I feel ben wallace is overrated. So no. I would take him over dirk either.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]I honestly can't think of a defensive player that is only one dimensional that I would take over dirk. Most of the guys I would take over dirk, are pretty good offensively too. Just probably not as good as he is offensively.
And I feel ben wallace is overrated. So no. I would take him over dirk either.[/QUOTE]
That is kind of the point. Payton was one of the best guard defenders ever...and he was a very good offensive player overall...but he's just not in Dirk's league overall as a player.
Howard is the best defensive force in the game right now. And he's a solid offensive player as well. Even with everything included, its absolutely debatable as to who the better player is right now. If you removed Howard's offense and made him mostly a defender, Dirk would easily be the better player.
Bill Russell's offence was as good as his defence.
But y'all teenagers dont know that. He ran the offence from the high post.
[QUOTE=brisbaneman]perhaps casual/racist fans may have considered dirk a 'failure' even though he made the WCF and Finals and gets you 50 wins a season...my point is Chandler was known as a good defender but was interchangeable with any number of defensive minded big men and was traded several times. Now he plays alongside Dirk and becomes the 2nd best player on a title team and enters ESPN's list at #38...
It's significantly harder to be a great offensive player simply because teams/coaches/scouts/players gameplan you so hard and will pick up on any tendency quickly--it's like a Le Chatalier's principle in sports. Plus individual defense is a bit more difficult than team defense to pull off in the NBA.[/QUOTE]
First of all, come off the "racist" inuendo. That's taking it way to far.
I agree chandler has always been a great defender. But the difference is that he's a champion.
And its not harder to be a great offensive player than defender. And to be honest, there's very few players (especially non bigmen) that can literrally efect a game defensively. Off the top, I can only think of jordan and pippen.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]That is kind of the point. Payton was one of the best guard defenders ever...and he was a very good offensive player overall...but he's just not in Dirk's league overall as a player.
Howard is the best defensive force in the game right now. And he's a solid offensive player as well. Even with everything included, its absolutely debatable as to who the better player is right now. If you removed Howard's offense and made him mostly a defender, Dirk would easily be the better player.[/QUOTE]
But payton wasn't much of a help defender. He was a great man defender. And let's be honest. Dirk isn't that bad of a defender and is a solid rebounder considering he's a perimeter player.
And the only thing that makes dirk rank hiigher than payton is that championship.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]But payton wasn't much of a help defender. He was a great man defender. And let's be honest. Dirk isn't that bad of a defender and is a solid rebounder considering he's a perimeter player.
And the only thing that makes dirk rank hiigher than payton is that championship.[/QUOTE]
Dirk is definitely a good rebounder and a decent defender. I was just using him because you brought up the mavs. We can use another player if you like.
Totally disagree about Dirk vs Payton though. Has nothing to do with the title. Dirk was just a better player. And it defies your logic because Payton is easily a far superior defender.
What Dirk provides a team is just worth more than what Payton did. Simple as that.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]Why? What has he done? How many super talent offensive juggernaut teams has dantoni had and lost? With homecourt advantage no less.
Dantoni is a modern day don nelson. How many championships does nellly have as a coach?[/QUOTE]
What has thibs done too. they achieve the same but dantoni made it consistently. While thibs is the reason why tmac and yao ended their careers. Its easier to incorporate defensive schemes on an offensive team than to incorporate offense on a defensive team. I doubt the bulls will still improve on offense but I think those suns team could improve on defense if they have a capable center just like the mavs.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]
And its not harder to be a great offensive player than defender. And to be honest, there's very few players (especially non bigmen) that can literrally efect a game defensively. Off the top, I can only think of jordan and pippen.[/QUOTE]
its harder to be an offensive player than defensive player thats why you can get ben wallace undrafted and iguodala in the late first round. When you play this game, defense is the first thing you learn and offense is last.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]First of all, come off the "racist" inuendo. That's taking it way to far.
I agree chandler has always been a great defender. But the difference is that he's a champion.
And its not harder to be a great offensive player than defender. And to be honest, there's very few players (especially non bigmen) that can literrally efect a game defensively. Off the top, I can only think of jordan and pippen.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry but I do not care what anyone, says but it is a fact that Dirk has been disrespected and cut down in the past solely due to his race. Not one player has as much misinformation and flat out lies brought out against him than does Dirk.
[QUOTE=knicksman]What has thibs done too. they achieve the same but dantoni made it consistently. While thibs is the reason why tmac and yao ended their careers. Its easier to incorporate defensive schemes on an offensive team than to incorporate offense on a defensive team. I doubt the bulls will still improve on offense but I think those suns team could improve on defense if they have a capable center just like the mavs.[/QUOTE]
Thibs is a rookie coach. And he has a young team. The jury is still out on him. Where as, dantoni has been coach for at least 5 years.
And how. Did thibs end mcgrady and mings career?