Even as a fan for well over 2 decades I still must say..I dont think the NBA owes me.

As I often do....I find myself very much against public opinion on this one. But I have like 2 hours with nothing to do but eat lunch and watch tv so....**** it. Rambling time.

Fans are pissed about no season. Mad at rich players and even richer owners. Players and owners alike have their publicist approved comments lined about to appease simple minded fans who actually believe such comments.

But really...you know they dont care right? Of course you do. Most of you at least. Even the players with good attachments to their fanbases...the fans arent the issue. They sure as hell arent to the owners.

And really I dont see why they should be.

There is the ever present "Without us...they would be ____! We make all this possible!" way to look at it. But really...think about it....

Doesnt the public make every rich person rich? The money always comes from those who want or need the product or service they offer. be it NBA players rich off basketball owners rich off cruise lines and computers or...walmart. Whatever.

Rich peopel get rich off many people wanting what they offer. But does that really mean they owe us for deciding that they ask a fair price and us paying it to enjoy ourselves?

Do roller coaster engineers just...owe the people at disneyworld?

Does the mcdonalds board owe people who like burgers and kids who want a toy?

How does someone owe you...for you wanting what they sell?

Besides....how many players and owners do you think provide less than a standard fan?

Ive been a fan for many years. Ive been to Bulls, Hornets, Hawks, Wizards and Magic games live. Bulls many many many times. Hornets 20-30. Hawks about that. Wizards maybe 15-20. Couple magic games back in the 90s. I watch shows about the NBA. I have NBA tv and all. Ive had league pass and collected cards and bought home videos and all.

Fine.

Even ignoring the fact that I decided of my own free will to do these things....

Am I to believe the owners and players arent big enough fans to have done the same?

Mark Cuban has been a sports fan a long time. I suspect hes spent more than I have supporting the NBA even before he was an owner. How many players used to watch the games? How many still do?

What if I watch and contribute to ratings that means they need to consider how I feel....but when players and owners watch it doesnt count?

When players like Bogut but 100 tickets for his fan section its not paying for the NBA? My 80 bucks count but his thousands dont?

All those jerseys and shoes players buy over the years...thats not going into the pool?

The players and owners ARE fans.

And not only that...they are fans other fans tend to hate on.

Forget cases like Lebron....Grant hill. Captian America in basketball form....got booed and hated in Michigan for going to Orlando. Shaq got booed for like 10 years for leaving Orlando. Fans throw beer at players. Some fan heckled Vernon Maxwell about his little baby girl who passed away. We have rude disrespectful idiots as fans. Probably more than we have bright eyed innocent little kids who just want to see Kobe dunk.

The fans are you and me. The fans are *****....who at the drop of a dime will hate anyone not on their team....at times boo people who are on it...contribute less to the leagues success on average than the players do and far less than owners.

But...they need ot be thinking about us while they conduct business?

Who EVER thinks about the public when business is done?

When there is a strike or lockout or anything...its always selfish on every side. Especially these days in America when workers have so many rights. This isnt 1908. We dont have 6 year old losing rms working 14 hour days in coal mines as a normal thing.

People who are getting by(sometimes by a little...usually by a lot) decide they want more and the people who usually recieve their product can go **** themselves. Writer strike....they dont give a **** if you wanna see your favorite show and your fanhood of it pays them.

When you watch guys jerseys burn, people wish injury on people, fans who know nothing about the situation calling Kobe a rapist, drunken idiots chanting nonsense, and beers flying, and fans shooting up parking lots and all...

How do you come out of it saying the fans and owners need to think more about us?

What do we actually do...for them...that they dont do for themselves?

Buy tickets? No. They probably buy more on average than mostindividual fans. Watch games? Nope. They do too.

Buy things that are NBA related? Same. They have kids who love the NBA with jerseys and shoes and cups and all. Their kids have NBA 2k too.

Having thought it out...I think im done being mad at either side.

I want them to play. But I dont see why they should care what I want.

Not more than what they want. I sure dont care more about them than I do about me.

Being richer means they should be less selfish?

Is that supposed to be the real world?

Fans can cry that they are the ones being screwed....but really. Isnt it always the public who loses during a labor battle?

But in this case....sports? I think athletes and owners might provide more of their own money than most other labor situations.

The owners are the ones paying for lunch for guys they already give millions to. The players are the ones who were us...but for the most part worked harder to get where they are than we were willing to(dont think there are only 400 tall athletic people out there....it takes a lot more).

Both sides provide endless entertainment at virtually no cost for people who dont go to games live....

But they owe even more? because we willingly give them money for a service we find fairly priced?

Nah.

And im sure in private they say the same thing. But if they said it in public there would be outrage. People cant handle real talk and honesty but dont wanna hear bullshit fed to them either.

I dont envy the publicists in this fight.

Really...I hate that there is even a need for such people. THe public is full of overly emotional soft types who cant look at themselves before hating on someone else.

I think im gonna give both sides a break and stop complaining. I ot 20 years of something for next to nothing. And if I were on either side id be holding out for more too.

They are just people. Prone to selfish acts.

Just like us.

And I think im ready to stop being pissed off and just....watch something else till it works out. I'll be happy when they get it sorted out and wish both sides the best.

But I suspect I may be nearly alone in that...

Hate is very popular when people feel wronged. And im not sure I can justify feeling wronged when I think about it.



Annoyed people who skimmed it...let me get a funny "Did not read" picture. Ive not seen a good one in months and I try nto to take myself too serious.

I tried reading it all but was interuptted by....

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NyFC2DKWJM[/url]

I agree.

I never watched the first series much but my star trek knowledge borders on creepy. Im a man of many many interests and i dont halfass much

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]I never watched the first series much but my star trek knowledge borders on creepy. Im a man of many many interests and i dont halfass much[/QUOTE]

Picard = GOAT Captain.

However, Spock >>>>>>> Data, and it ain't even close.

Picard may well be the GOAT but I wouldnt trade Sisko during the Dominion war for Picard in his prime. Picard is a peace time captian.

I'm not really sure at what your getting at in the OP but I think your trying to imply that everything is a fair price because of the "free market" and that business owners are allowed to charge whatever they want because they own the means of production for the said product. This is inherently untrue in our current model of economics because of the various bi-laws of the legal and business systems. J

ust because somebody (or some entity) owns the means of production doesn't mean that whatever price he chooses to put on it is a fair and legit price. Many variables have to be taken into account such as the level of competition, manufacturing cost, distribution costs, etc. The first such variable, level of competition is exactly why the players have just cause atm to file an anti-trust lawsuit, which is giving them huge bargaining power at the negotiating table. Your making it sound unfair business practices do not exist when in reality it is the norm of certain industries to engage in such practices.

To further illustrate my point take this example into account: I am a writer, I write a book and want to sell, produce and distribute my book so I can make money. I find to my dismay that a certain publishing house has cornered the market, thus creating a monopoly along with its other subsidiary companies, forcing any credible author that wants to do business into using its publishing brand to sell his own books. This publishing house also has a stipulation that any emerging writer gets a mere 1 cent on the dollar for every copy of his book sold. Would this practice exactly be "deciding that they ask a fair price and us paying it to enjoy ourselves"? Also take in mind that this scenario also happens to be the norm for virtually every industry on the market today.

My point wasnt that any price is a fair price....
my point was that im not sure fans consider the fact that the owners and players probably contribute more to the success of the league they say they support than most of them do.


But yes I would say a price one is willing to pay must be fair. If it isnt fair...why pay it?

A good profit margin doesnt make your product too expensive if the people who buy it dont mind paying your asking price.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]My point wasnt that any price is a fair price....
my point was that im not sure fans consider the fact that the owners and players probably contribute more to the success of the league they say they support than most of them do.
[B]

But yes I would say a price one is willing to pay must be fair. If it isnt fair...why pay it?
[/B]
A good profit margin doesnt make your product too expensive if the people who buy it dont mind paying your asking price.[/QUOTE]
So you think that even though the NBA has a monopoly on professional basketball that the price they ask to pay for tickets and merchandise is fair? Keep in mind the average price for an "authentic" NBA jersey is 59.99.

[url]http://store.nba.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4055669&cp=1400498[/url]

Best thread of the lockout so far. Someone who isn't trying to see it from either side's perspective, but just stepping back and looking at the whole picture.

When I go to a game the ticket price is the last thing I notice. If anything is unfair its the price of parking and concessions. They take advantage there. But so does everyone when they know you have no choice. Last time I was at disneyworld a sprite was 4 dollars and that was probably 1997.

Far as a jersey? What do I know about what the NBA paid to have it created? I dont know the profit margins. Im sure the material doesnt cost but actually putting it together? I dont think the NBA is likely to own its own sweatshops. The people really getting over are probably the ones paying kids a dollar an hour to make the products.

Like Spidermans dying Uncle said, "with great power, comes great responsibility."




:confusedshrug:

Yea but when America tries to police the world they hate us for it.

Uncle Ben should have told Peter to mind his own business. Someone else can save the city. Like 900 superheroes are in New York already.

He could have settled down with Mary Jane without her almost being killed 88 times first.

Just gives me more time to drink.

Find a Suns vs Warriors game from like 2008 on youtube. Take a shot every time someone takes a questionable 3 in transition.

Report back on the results if you live.

Except they have tied their team's identity to a City's name, and it's tax payers. Not to mention most arenas are built by tax payers, most of the security provided is through tax payer money. Yet with millions of tax payer money tied to professional teams and their well-being economically, they still don't owe us anything. F*UCK THAT! Tell me to invest money in anything else and then say you don't owe me anything.

Nba players and owners no doubt contribute more to the tax base than average fans. Again it seems we seperate them from the public they are part of.

I find it annoying for billionaires to ask a city to pay for an arena but thats a whole other issue. I have no doubt they bring in vast sums of money to a community which is why they pay for them to begin with. Im sure the city runs the numbers in advance.

I read that lebron alone generated like 130 million a year in cleveland. Resturants not sure they can keep theirs doors open without the people flooding out of games into their bars.

Big picture things to consider.

I bet mark cuban spends more on taxes than plenty of neighborhoods generate in a year.

I agree it's OUR league and MY team symdrome :lol

Dallas Cowboys owner : " I wish I won ever year a championship , but the thrill to work hard each year no matter what money is involved is the competitive drive I love "

Do all NBA owners have the competitive drive for their franchise :confusedshrug:

If they don't - they don't deserve a franchise from my fan perspective.

[QUOTE=hammer2010]Except they have tied their team's identity to a City's name, and it's tax payers. Not to mention most arenas are built by tax payers, most of the security provided is through tax payer money. Yet with millions of tax payer money tied to professional teams and their well-being economically, they still don't owe us anything. F*UCK THAT! Tell me to invest money in anything else and then say you don't owe me anything.[/QUOTE]

local governments dont build arenas as favors to the league. they build them in the hope that the city will get a return in the form of more money being spent in ameneties around the arenas, in restraunts and the like. cities build arenas to get something back themselves, not for the basketball

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]
Being richer means they should be less selfish?
[/QUOTE]
Yes.

Most rich people and people that are extremely well off in life like a lot of NBA players and owners should feel fortunate enough in their lives that they should want to give back to those who are less fortunate than they are.

If you look at all these owners and players, a lot of them either came into money, got somewhat lucky in the business world with whatever they were doing, or had the genetics to become a 6'8 black man. They are in the top 1% for people to have been born straight privelaged.. at least in those categories. The fact that they made it that high is blessing in itself and they should gain an extra sense of humbleness and realize what was granted to them wasn't granted to many other people.. even those that may have started off just like them.

Yea...i dont think local government is the place to find the selfless. They get something in return.

[QUOTE=tpols]Yes.

Most rich people and people that are extremely well off in life like a lot of NBA players and owners should feel fortunate enough in their lives that they should want to give back to those who are less fortunate than they are.

If you look at all these owners and players, a lot of them either came into money, got somewhat lucky in the business world with whatever they were doing, or had the genetics to become a 6'8 black man. They are in the top 1% for people to have been born straight privelaged.. at least in those categories. The fact that they made it that high is blessing in itself and they should gain an extra sense of humbleness and realize what was granted to them wasn't granted to many other people.. even those that may have started off just like them.[/QUOTE]

And people born in america and canada and other first world countries should appreciate the massive advantages they get from that. But we dont. we have life good enough that we can spend hours arguing over basketball online. We arent making a dollar a day and hoping to make it through the dry season. But we dont take our gifts and be selfless and devote our insane amount of free time to helping others.

We get onion rings and complain that one of our 500 sources of e ntertainment is on a break.

Not knowing how good you have it is a near universal symptom of being an american. Im not mad it extends up the ladder. I was mad 2k 12 didnt have a crew mode. We are a petty people.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Nba players and owners no doubt contribute more to the tax base than average fans. Again it seems we seperate them from the public they are part of.

I find it annoying for billionaires to ask a city to pay for an arena but thats a whole other issue. I have no doubt they bring in vast sums of money to a community which is why they pay for them to begin with. Im sure the city runs the numbers in advance.

I read that lebron alone generated like 130 million a year in cleveland. Resturants not sure they can keep theirs doors open without the people flooding out of games into their bars.

Big picture things to consider.

I bet mark cuban spends more on taxes than plenty of neighborhoods generate in a year.[/QUOTE]

The point is that tax payers directly fund parts of their business. If I run a business and hire 1000 people with well paying jobs and my business helps progress the economy of that area. Should the tax payers build the building that my company operates in?

Doesn't make sense does it?

How much you pay in taxes reflects how much you benefit from society as a whole. GTFO with the whole 'they pay more taxes so they should get better treatment' bit.

Again i have to ask.....if its so unreasonable to ask a city to pay why have like 20 cities done so? Talk about all the right and wrong you want. A gang of accountants economists and such for these cities look over the requests and the likely benefits then pay the money. Dont act like they sneak under a mattress and take it. You dont think its right....tell the hundreds of people deciding to ok it after months of research.


And once more......taxpayers pay. Owners and players pay taxes. More than i do thats for sure.

They are the taxpayers like everyone else. Only they pay much more of it. Its not them and taxpayers. Its just...taxpayers.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Again i have to ask.....if its so unreasonable to ask a city to pay why have like 20 cities done so? Talk about all the right and wrong you want. A gang of accountants and such for these cities look over the requests and the likely benefits then pay the money. Dont act like they sneak under a mattress and take it. You dont think its right....tell the hundreds of people deciding to ok it after months of research.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you that they bring economic activity in an area, but to say they owe the fans and the tax payers nothing is bullsh*t. I don't agree with taxpayers paying for arenas but that's my view. Every business owes it's success to their customers. Do you think people would care about the NBA if the owners and players came out and said outright that they owe the fans nothing?

They are nothing without the fans and gift-wrapped billion dollar state of the art arenas courtesy of tax payers. If they promise economic activity in return for tax payer's money then they better f*ckin provide it.

tldr, but uve been a fan since before i was born, u old af bro :lol

[QUOTE]I agree with you that they bring economic activity in an area, but to say they owe the fans and the tax payers nothing is bullsh*t. I don't agree with taxpayers paying for arenas but that's my view. Every business owes it's success to their customers. Do you think people would care about the NBA if the owners and players came out and said outright that they owe the fans nothing? [/QUOTE]

Course not. Because people are stupid and dont want the truth. They want to be told what they wanna hear. You think a president can win if he openly says hes not sure god exists? Or that he doesnt like black people and jews? But do you think there has not been a racist president in the last 30 years? Or one who questioned god or isnt really christian but just says so? You think that if a politician said the war on drugs cant be won and is wasting billions to arrest small time dealers who wont make a real difference other politicians wouldnt shred him? That mean it isnt true?

The truth has no place in public opinion matters. The public likes pretty lies more than ugly truths.

Lying to the public about how you really feel is a key part of public life because people dont want to support the honest. They support those who make them feel comfortable.

If the truth and how people really felt and operated were acceptable to the public we wouldnt need agencies that exist just to shape public perception of the famous.

The truth must be hidden because people are childish idiots who dont want the boat rocked.


[QUOTE]They are nothing without the fans and gift-wrapped billion dollar state of the art arenas courtesy of tax payers. If they promise economic activity in return for tax payer's money then they better f*ckin provide it.[/QUOTE]

They ARE the taxpayers. A guy who makes the average american yearly pay(like 30 thousand?) wont pay as much in taxes in his life as some of these guys do in a year. Or a week depending on what they buy. So your seperation between them and "the taxpayers" just isnt reasonable.

They are tax paying americans themselves. Tax paying americans who pay most of the money you are giving credit to the less wealthy for paying.

I dont have a problem with the rich having to pay the most in taxes. Its fair to me. But we cant act like they arent paying it and poor people are the ones whos tax dollars are being spent.

Everyone is taxed. Including the people you keep saying are taking tax payer money. Only they pay a lot more of the money you are upset they benefit from.

incase you didnt know, FANS pay these players salaries.

so yea, they OWE us. nobody worships their athletes quite like Basketball fans.. its something about being able to pick up a ball on any given day and pretend youre Kemp dunking , or Jordan hitting a gamewinner ,or Magic giving a no look.

you got millionaires refusing a 50/50 split? :banghead: :banghead:

Jordan got paid like 800,000 a year . You got scrubs like Fisher, getting paid millions, and acting straight juvenile.

OWNERS FTW

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]

They are the taxpayers like everyone else. Only they pay much more of it. Its not them and taxpayers. Its just...taxpayers.[/QUOTE]

You know the United States has a regressive tax system, right?

:hammerhead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead:

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]And people born in america and canada and other first world countries should appreciate the massive advantages they get from that. But we dont. we have life good enough that we can spend hours arguing over basketball online. We arent making a dollar a day and hoping to make it through the dry season. But we dont take our gifts and be selfless and devote our insane amount of free time to helping others.

We get onion rings and complain that one of our 500 sources of e ntertainment is on a break.

Not knowing how good you have it is a near universal symptom of being an american. Im not mad it extends up the ladder. I was mad 2k 12 didnt have a crew mode. We are a petty people.[/QUOTE]
We as americans dont give enough back in a lot of ways but we also dont have near the money or means like they do to make a difference. We can give what.. a couple thousand dollars a year to charity as grown adults.. me as a student I have 50 dollars in my savings account and thousands in debt. How am I supposed to help others in a less fortunate position than me? I do community service right now and I did it in HS. Other than that I cant really contribute much more. I may be very well of in the world but I dont have the means to help a lot of the people below me.

These guys on the other hand, have the time, resources, money, and power to influence people and make a difference in a way I cannot no matter how comfortably Imaybe living. A lot of them are role models to future generations growing up. They hold a lot more responsiblity than I do.. it's a big difference. The morals are the same but the opportunity to make a difference isnt even close.

[QUOTE]incase you didnt know, FANS pay these players salaries.

so yea, they OWE us.[/QUOTE]

The public pays everyones salary. Doesnt mean everyone owes the public.

Players get fans money fans work at companies kept afloat by consumers many of them no doubt people they support themselves by buying the products those people depend on.

Circle of life isnt just a Lion King concept.

Its all us. Not us vs them.

And as I said....most players and owners probably spend more than average fans do on the NBA and NBA related things.

Ive not been to an NBA game this year. But Derrick Rose owes me money for watching on TV just like he does when hes not playing?

Nobody owes anyone anything in exchange for them having a desire for the service they provide. All you have to do is not support it. But you do. you enjoy(often for free) what they work to provide you. You are owed nothing.

[QUOTE]nobody worships their athletes quite like Basketball fans.. its something about being able to pick up a ball on any given day and pretend youre Kemp dunking , or Jordan hitting a gamewinner ,or Magic giving a no look.

you got millionaires refusing a 50/50 split? [/QUOTE]

And billionaires refusing a 53/47 one. It happens.

[QUOTE]Jordan got paid like 800,000 a year . You got scrubs like Fisher, getting paid millions, and acting straight juvenile.

OWNERS FTW[/QUOTE]

Jordan himself fought for the right for those players to make the money they do. Not the best example. If he followed his own advice he would sell his team to someone who can afford to operate it under a 57% split which is actually LESS than he wanted the players to get.

[QUOTE=tpols]We as americans dont give enough back in a lot of ways but we also dont have near the money or means like they do to make a difference. We can give what.. a couple thousand dollars a year to charity as grown adults.. me as a student I have 50 dollars in my savings account and thousands in debt. How am I supposed to help others in a less fortunate position than me? I do community service right now and I did it in HS. Other than that I cant really contribute much more. I may be very well of in the world but I dont have the means to help a lot of the people below me.

These guys on the other hand, have the time, resources, money, and power to influence people and make a difference in a way I cannot no matter how comfortably Imaybe living. A lot of them are role models to future generations growing up. They hold a lot more responsiblity than I do.. it's a big difference. The morals are the same but the opportunity to make a difference isnt even close.[/QUOTE]


We all have enough to change lives. I could probably buy insect netting for 10 bucks that might save 3-4 lives in parts of the world infected with malaria. And while its a nice idea.....im probably not gonna do it. Not because im evil. But because I...have other things going on.

Ive done charity. still do. Im quick to help someone worse off. But I dont do all Ican. At all. Few do. ANd im not gonna hate on others for it like im sitting aside all my extra to send rice to flood victims. My xbox cost more than the average yearly income of a couple countries....


And most rich people do make a difference. At least NBa player/owner rich. You know how many people are on these guys to give? I remember Barkley said he would tell rookies the first words to learn is "No". this world tries to bleed newly rich people dry. Family and friends are the reason many of these guys go broke so fast without a check coming in. Formerly broke people are quick to try to make everyone who struggled with them better off. It happens with lottery winners too.

These guys get rich...the whole family is rich. I remember Shammond Williams little brother getting a Benz and he barely made the NBA.

They dont know shit about money for the most part. But the yare hosting Katrina charity games, building playgrounds, and churchs, and community centers, and hospitals in africa, and donating halls to schools and setting up funds, and grants, and so on.

That money goes out. Few are just sitting on 100 million if they made 100 million. Wherever it goes....even blown on garbage...that money is going back out into the world.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]We all have enough to change lives. I could probably buy insect netting for 10 bucks that might save 3-4 lives in parts of the world infected with malaria. And while its a nice idea.....im probably not gonna do it. Not because im evil. But because I...have other things going on.

Ive done charity. still do. Im quick to help someone worse off. But I dont do all Ican. At all. Few do. ANd im not gonna hate on others for it like im sitting aside all my extra to send rice to flood victims. My xbox cost more than the average yearly income of a couple countries....


And most rich people do make a difference. At least NBa player/owner rich. You know how many people are on these guys to give? I remember Barkley said he would tell rookies the first words to learn is "No". this world tries to bleed newly rich people dry. Family and friends are the reason many of these guys go broke so fast without a check coming in. Formerly broke people are quick to try to make everyone who struggled with them better off. It happens with lottery winners too.

These guys get rich...the whole family is rich. I remember Shammond Williams little brother getting a Benz and he barely made the NBA.

They dont know shit about money for the most part. But the yare hosting Katrina charity games, building playgrounds, and churchs, and community centers, and hospitals in africa, and donating halls to schools and setting up funds, and grants, and so on.

That money goes out. Few are just sitting on 100 million if they made 100 million. Wherever it goes....even blown on garbage...that money is going back out into the world.[/QUOTE]
And how are you going to get that insect netting to Africa? You cant set up a charity.. you cant provide the means to help others.. unless you want to devote a huge part of your life to it, which, for a lot of americans, wouldn't be completely possible since most have full time jobs. You can do it through other people that have more means than you. And those people either have to be rich, or they have to devote their whole lives to it. The thing is NBA players can get it done without devoting their whole lives to it, and they can usually draw a lot more support because their names draw crowds.

The point is NBA players can make a huge impact without giving up many of their possesions. I'm talking about the big names here.. not 500000k a year bench players.

[QUOTE=Dizzle-2k7]incase you didnt know, FANS pay these players salaries.

[/QUOTE]

And they currently aren't receiving any salary.

And the players create the fans in the first place.

Little busy right now but i wanted to answer something you said....

How to donate? Id google donate mosquito nets and do it with 10 dollars on one of the sites setup to do it. Its easy. But people still dont do it. We only care enough to point out that others dont care enough.

For the record......im sending the net money. Ill show a screenshot of the confirmation page. Perhaps we can band together in this topic and show if we really do care about the less fortunate.

The only reason these people have jobs is because the fans are willing to pay to watch it. So yes, the players and owners do owe the fans.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]For the record......im sending the net money. Ill show a screenshot of the confirmation page. Perhaps we can band together in this topic and show if we really do care about the less fortunate.[/QUOTE]
Damn man.. wish I had a credit or debit card. This is what I'm talking about.

[QUOTE]The only reason these people have jobs is because the fans are willing to pay to watch it. So yes, the players and owners do owe the fans.[/QUOTE]

And only reason anyone has a job is people willing to pay for whatever their job offers(a product...or a service). Doesnt mean everyone owes everyone else. It means people buy and sell...the sellers dont owe the buyers for paying for what they want.

we should just all agree the dr dre owes us detox