And its not even close, really.
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And its not even close, really.
Does anyone dispute that..?
[QUOTE=KingBeasley08]Does anyone dispute that..?[/QUOTE]
I just think its comical when people say there is no arguement for Dirk over KG on the all time player rankings. Dirk did a lot more as a lead-dog and actually led his team to a title.
Mavs >>> Wolves.
The Joe Smith fiasco really held the Wolves back, and stunted Garnett's progress as the lead guy.
You got to factor in TBW terrible front office and that KG didn't get one single draft pick in seven years. His team sucked, as for talent I would say KG is superior. He was the better passer, defender (by faaaar), rebounder.
Once he got some talent around him he won the title, IMO he should have won the FMVP, but yeah Dirk is a great player, one of the best PF scorer ever.
There is a case for both of them but I'm giving KG the nod.
So if you replaced Dirk with prime KG on that 2011 Mavs team, do people still see them winning the Finals? I don't.
It isn't close gimme the guy who can close out games, series regularly. Lets not act like Garnett doesn't dissapear in the 4th.
Game 6, 2010 finals
Garnett 12 points 6 rebounds :lol
Game 7: 17 points (not that bad) but 3 rebounds :roll:
Dirk Game 6 of the 2011 NBA finals
21 points 11 rebounds on horrible efficiency but he still left it all on the line
Dirk Game 6 of 2006 NBA finals
30 points 15 boards and who knows what would've happended if Jason Terry didn't think he was ******* ray allen at the end of the game
[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]So if you replaced Dirk with prime KG on that 2011 Mavs team, do people still see them winning the Finals? I don't.[/QUOTE]
You could put together a weaker team with players more suited to playing with Kg and they would get it done to be honest.Prime KG was a monster, put him on any of Duncan's championship teams and he's get it done.
That doesn't mean he was better at playing basketball though.
Dirk is a true #1 option.. a KG lead team will never win a ring. You only pick KG over Dirk if he's the 2nd option.
[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]So if you replaced Dirk with prime KG on that 2011 Mavs team, do people still see them winning the Finals? I don't.[/QUOTE]
Don't know about that, that team was built around Dirk so you could never compare that way.
But KG would have won with Timmy's teams and also with any good SG (Kobe, DWade).
Arguing Dirk vs. KG is one of the better debates on ISH. In fact, probably the best player debate going.
Both played in same era, both had dominant statistical seasons at their peak KG (2004, 2005), Dirk (2006, 2007). Both had remarkable runs that fell short in their peak (KG 2004, Dirk 2006), and both had terrific seasons and title runs a little bit past their prime (KG 2008, Dirk 2011).
To top it all off, both players have something to hold over the other. KG as the better all-around PF (better rebounder and defender) and Dirk as the better "superstar" because of his clutch play and perennial success as the Mavericks franchise player.
To me, it's dead even, even thought I love Dirk as a player and tend to dislike KG because of his personality. Only thing that might put one over the top is another title (must be as at least #2 or #3 best player on the team though). Currently, it looks like neither Dirk or KG will realistically be able to fulfill that, so the debate rages on.
[QUOTE=Cone]Dirk is a true #1 option.. a[B] KG lead team will never win a ring.[/B] You only pick KG over Dirk if he's the 2nd option.[/QUOTE]
It did though. I was hard on Garnett early in his career and really did not like the way he played in the '08 finals at all, but he did lead them to the ring as much as anyone else on the team did from the stand-point of taking all the series into factor.
[QUOTE=Cone]Dirk is a true #1 option.. a KG lead team will never win a ring. You only pick KG over Dirk if he's the 2nd option.[/QUOTE]
pretty easy to say a kg led team will never win a ring when he's a couple seasons from retirement.
[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]So if you replaced Dirk with prime KG on that 2011 Mavs team, do people still see them winning the Finals? I don't.[/QUOTE]
Probably not. Why would they? That Mavs team was built around Dirk's strengths.
Would Dirk be able to take Minny's supporting cast in '04 to the Conference finals? With guys like Sprewell, Hudson, Cassell and Szczerbiak?
[QUOTE=Carbine]It did though. I was hard on Garnett early in his career and really did not like the way he played in the '08 finals at all, but he did lead them to the ring as much as anyone else on the team did from the stand-point of taking all the series into factor.[/QUOTE]
I'm talking about being the clear cut #1 option.. he did it with 2 hall of famers.
[QUOTE=Rubio2Gasol]You could put together a weaker team with players more suited to playing with Kg and they would get it done to be honest.Prime KG was a monster, put him on any of Duncan's championship teams and he's get it done.[/QUOTE]
He was a monster but he isn't leading Jason Terry and JJ Barea to a championship.
[QUOTE=Cone]I'm talking about being the clear cut #1 option.. he did it with 2 hall of famers.[/QUOTE]
And Jason Kidd is a future HoFer without a doubt. People need to use context.
[QUOTE=Odinn]And Jason Kidd is a future HoFer without a doubt. People need to use context.[/QUOTE]
Allen and Pierce were both way better players than Kidd was in 2011. Kidd was a beast defensively, but he wasn't on PP or Allen's level at the time.
[QUOTE=Odinn]And Jason Kidd is a future HoFer without a doubt. People need to use context.[/QUOTE]
I fail to see how a 37 year old Jason Kidd helps KG's case over Dirk. Context? :lol
[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Probably not. Why would they? That Mavs team was built around Dirk's strengths.
Would Dirk be able to take Minny's supporting cast in '04 to the Conference finals? With guys like Sprewell, Hudson, Cassell and Szczerbiak?[/QUOTE]
Why wouldn't they? Dirk took two dogs.hit teams to the Finals and won one of them. Have you ever seen the 06 team? They were starting Adrian Griffin and had a center combo of Erick Dampier and Diop. Stacked :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
[QUOTE=Odinn]And Jason Kidd is a future HoFer without a doubt. People need to use context.[/QUOTE]
:biggums:
I don't think I need to explain my self.
I wonder if Dirks champion ship run will continue to be surrounded by 1st and 2nd round knock outs. For the Mavs and his sake I hope not. Surely a revamped roster will help but who knows. From 2007-2012, Dirk carried the Mavs to a 26 win/26 loss record in the playoffs, including 4 first round exits.
[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]He was a monster but he isn't leading Jason Terry and JJ Barea to a championship.[/QUOTE]
But that's subjective.
No one on the world would say Dirk was more successful than Duncan as a first option but KG would give those teams more (we all know TD is a better rim protector but KG's defensive versatility and lateral quickness across the perimiter compensates) to a a Chip.
Kidd/Barea
Stevenson/Terry
Marion/Stojokavic
Dirk
Chandler/Haywood
And all the other relative scrubs right, that's a nicely balanced team but whats more important is that all these guys played the playoffs of their lives and they were raining threes like we've never seen before.
Kidd/Barea
Steveson/Terry
Hedo/Stojakovic
KG
Chandler/Haywood
Could get it done almost as well (talking bout Orlando 09 Hedo BTW). There's virtually no change in talent there.ou're just accomodating for KG's strengths which is what Cuban and Dallas did for Dirk.
[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]So if you replaced Dirk with prime KG on that 2011 Mavs team, do people still see them winning the Finals? I don't.[/QUOTE]
If Lebron chokes again? Absolutely!!!
both kg and dirk could never win without a great supporting cast carrying them to a finals. I would take kg though because he does alll the little things needed to win. all the little dirty things. dirk cant even set a screen properly and plays no d whatsoever
[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]Why wouldn't they? Dirk took two dogs.hit teams to the Finals and won one of them. Have you ever seen the 06 team? They were starting Adrian Griffin and had a center combo of Erick Dampier and Diop. Stacked :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:[/QUOTE]
Right. "Dog shit" teams, hah!
1st in offensive rating in 2006 and top 10 in DRtg in 2011.
Terry/Kidd/Stojakovic/Marion/Chandler/Stevenson >>>> Cassell/Hudson/Olowokandi/Szczerbiak/Hoiberg and it's not even close. Dallas' 2006 squad also had more talent.
[QUOTE=kobron23]both kg and dirk could never win without a great supporting cast carrying them to a finals. I would take kg though because he does alll the little things needed to win. all the little dirty things. [B]dirk cant even set a screen properly and plays no d whatsoever[/B][/QUOTE]
I already knew you were retarded, but this just sealed it.
[QUOTE=Cone]:biggums:
I don't think I need to explain my self.[/QUOTE]
Yeah. But "he had HoFer(s)" argument without the context one of the weakest arguments. That's why I posted about it.
[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]Allen and Pierce were both way better players than Kidd was in 2011. Kidd was a beast defensively, but he wasn't on PP or Allen's level at the time.[/QUOTE]
So really what you're saying is that since KG needed scorers to win a title, that somehow makes him less of a player than Dirk, who is only good-great at scoring and thus needs a team to cover up all of the other holes...
[QUOTE=Cone]I already knew you were retarded, but this just sealed it.[/QUOTE]
be sure to call me names more instead of dispute what im saying. you know im right
dirk is softer then charmin. cant say the same about kg
you need an offensive and defensive leader to win a ring
08 Boston - Pierce/KG
11 Dallas - Dirk/Chandler
Garnett was robbed of Finals MVP in 08 (Allen also had a better case than Pierce), but wouldn't have won if you replaced Dirk with him in 11 (no guarantee Boston wins with Dirk in 08 either)
[QUOTE=fpliii]you need an offensive and defensive leader to win a ring
08 Boston -[B] Pierce[/B]/KG
11 Dallas - Dirk/Chandler
Garnett was robbed of Finals MVP in 08 (Allen also had a better case than Pierce), but wouldn't have won if you replaced Dirk with him in 11 (no guarantee Boston wins with Dirk in 08 either)[/QUOTE]
Not really. Perkins and Rondo when on the floor made a bigger impact defensively than Pierce even as far back as the 08 season. A lot of people have been overrating Paul Pierce defensively since the big three had formed.
Dirk took a team that had DeSagana Diop & Adrian Griffin starting to the NBA Finals.
Im not knocking KG, Im just saying Dirk shouldnt be knocked either.
Both were/are amazing and are guys that took each other to the MAX in their only playoff encounter; KG 24/19 per game, Dirk 33/15 per game.
It was an epic battle. Wish they had matched up more in the playoffs, it was a thing of beauty.
[QUOTE=Smoke117]Not really. Perkins and Rondo when on the floor made a bigger impact defensively than Pierce even as far back as the 08 season. A lot of people have been overrating Paul Pierce defensively since the big three had formed.[/QUOTE]
They're saying Pierce was the offensive Leader and KG was the defense.
[QUOTE=CAstill]They're saying Pierce was the offensive Leader and KG was the defense.[/QUOTE]
yup
You're either a complete idiot, or weren't watching basketball in 2008 if you believe KG didn't lead the Celtics to that title. He was by far their best offensive, and defensive player.
It's not even close. Pierce and Ray were a distant 2nd and 3rd on that team. KG led that team in scoring in the Playoffs, and was the most complete offensive player on the team by FAR. And it wasn't even close on defense, he was in another stratosphere then everyone else.
Even if you take away the fact that KG led them in scoring in the Playoffs and was their best offensive player, he still would have led them to the title with his defense alone. That Celtics team didn't win the championship because they were an offensive juggernaut, they won because they were an all time great defensive team, and who anchored that defense? I rest my case.
Saying KG didn't lead the Celtics to the 2008 title is like saying Russell didn't lead the 60's Celtics to titles.
[QUOTE=Cone]Dirk is a true #1 option.. [U]a KG lead team will never win a ring. [/U]You only pick KG over Dirk if he's the 2nd option.[/QUOTE]
KG was the best player when the Celtics won the ring. :confusedshrug:
[QUOTE=fpliii]yup[/QUOTE]
Oh Okay, well on that basis Pierce had no business winning the FMVP. Ray Allen had a much better offensive series in the 08 finals. I would probably have just given it to KG, but they went the offensive route and gave it to the guy who scored slightly more on a much shittier efficiency. Either Ray or KG should have been FMVP, not Pierce.
As far as the the topic goes, it was definitely KG who led the Celtics to a championship. He was by far the best player on the team. Dirk was more successful as a lead dog than KG...yeah and Dirk had better teams and didn't have a GM (Mchale) who screwed his own team. If you are going to build a team though, it is going to be much easier to build around KG than it is Dirk as KG is the complete package and Dirk is just a one way player.
[QUOTE=Smoke117]Oh Okay, well on that basis Pierce had no business winning the FMVP. Ray Allen had a much better offensive series in the 08 finals. I would probably have just given it to KG, but they went the offensive route and gave it to the guy who scored slightly more on a much shittier efficiency. Either Ray or KG should have been FMVP, not Pierce.
As far as the the topic goes, it was definitely KG who led the Celtics to a championship. He was by far the best player on the team. Dirk was more successful as a lead dog than KG...yeah and Dirk had better teams and didn't have a GM (Mchale) who screwed his own team. If you are going to build a team though, it is going to be much easier to build around KG than it is Dirk as KG is the complete package and Dirk is just a one way player.[/QUOTE]
Can you even imagine how many rings Minny would of won if we had kept Ray Allen? A prime KG and prime Allen together = GG league.