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All of them, considered by lebron(*) stans to be the ones "carrying" kobe through the 2009/2011 chips, have proven they are either scrubs, mental mdigets, underachievers or all of the above when they have played without kobe.
So tell me, is this just a bizarre coincidence?
lets add to that list guys like Smush, Farmer, Sasha who couldn't even stay in the league once away from the aura of the mamba
[QUOTE=STATUTORY]lets add to that list guys like Smush, Farmer, Sasha who couldn't even stay in the league once away from the aura of the mamba[/QUOTE]
exactly. I consider Fisher the best player (not named shaq) on his own merits to have ever played with kobe
[QUOTE=Mr. Jabbar]All of them, considered by lebron(*) stans to be the ones "carrying" kobe through the 2009/2011 chips, have proven they are either scrubs, mental mdigets, underachievers or all of the above when they have played without kobe.
So tell me, is this just a bizarre coincidence?[/QUOTE]
Both Odom and Gasol were already awesome players without Kobe. Bynum hasn't played a game yet without Kobe so we just don't know.
21/10/3
17/10/4
What are the above numbers you ask? You guessed it...the averages of Gasol and Odom the year before they both joined the Lakers.
But yea...they are nothing without Kobe.
People look at the 2010 finals and the past three years when kobe was kind of in chuck mode to base their entire view of him as a player on.
But kobe actually worked with those guys and Lakers had a great system set up.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Both Odom and Gasol were already awesome players without Kobe. Bynum hasn't played a game yet without Kobe so we just don't know.
21/10/3
17/10/4
What are the above numbers you ask? You guessed it...the averages of Gasol and Odom the year before they both joined the Lakers.
But yea...they are nothing without Kobe.[/QUOTE]
numbers dont mean much without context, what were they fighting for? gasol was 0-12 in playoffs games without kobe, thats 3 SWEEPS in a row, now you can add another one for 0-16, thats a far more telling number if you ask me...ok, mem was a bad team with pau as a whole, but not able to win 1 game?
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Both Odom and Gasol were already awesome players without Kobe. Bynum hasn't played a game yet without Kobe so we just don't know.
21/10/3
17/10/4
What are the above numbers you ask? You guessed it...the averages of Gasol and Odom the year before they both joined the Lakers.
But yea...they are nothing without Kobe.[/QUOTE]
Chris Bosh put up 24/11 before joining Heat and he is the 3rd option
putting shit in perspective
[QUOTE=STATUTORY]Chris Bosh put up 24/11 before joining Heat and he is the 3rd option
putting shit in perspective[/QUOTE]
dat ether :oldlol:
i think dmavs is well aware of this though, he sees the heat team as overly stacked
[QUOTE=Mr. Jabbar]numbers dont mean much without context, what were they fighting for? gasol was 0-12 in playoffs games without kobe, thats 3 SWEEPS in a row, now you can add another one for 0-16, thats a far more telling number if you ask me...ok, mem was a bad team with pau as a whole, but not able to win 1 game?[/QUOTE]
Those Memphis teams weren't all that good, just slightly above-average teams. And Lamar Odom was on a Miami Heat team that made it to the 2nd round. So these two were already putting up good numbers on playoff teams prior to playing with Kobe.
[QUOTE=STATUTORY]lets add to that list guys like Smush, Farmer, Sasha who couldn't even stay in the league once away from the aura of the mamba[/QUOTE]
Both Farmar and Sasha left the NBA because of the lockout... Both played well in backup roles for NJ...Farmar was actually pretty good when he was able to start for the team...
What did Kobe do before Pau , Bynum, and Fish got to LA? Didn't make the playoffs and a couple of first round exits..
[B]WHAT OTHER SUPERSTAR HAS LOST A SERIES AFTER THEY WERE UP 3-1[/B]? :roll:
HAS ANY TOP 10 PLAYER ALL TIME HAD THAT HAPPEN TO THEM? Just asking
Pau was considered the best big man in the game the year they won their chip in 2009 and 2010. Lamar was 6th man of the year before he got traded and Bynum was considered the 2nd best big man in the league before he got shipped off to Philly.
During their times they were great players but they've fallen off since, it has no correlation to Kobe other than the fact that they played together. It's disrespectful as hell to discredit these guys that were MAJOR pieces in getting the chip, not saying they completely carried Kobe though. OKC had to pick up Perkins and Ibaka to compete against Lamar/Gasol/Bynum so that has to account for something.
Just read this, and you will see who carried who :cheers:
[url]http://www.behindthebasket.com/btb/2011/9/1/its-all-about-the-ws-kobe-bryant.html[/url]
[QUOTE=Mr. Jabbar]numbers dont mean much without context, what were they fighting for? gasol was 0-12 in playoffs games without kobe, thats 3 SWEEPS in a row, now you can add another one for 0-16, thats a far more telling number if you ask me...ok, mem was a bad team with pau as a whole, but not able to win 1 game?[/QUOTE]
What is that supposed to prove? That Gasol as a number 1 option isn't good enough to have success in the playoffs on average teams? Ok.
And the point being? Nobody ever said Gasol was a championship first option. Nobody ever said Odom was anything other than a really good 3rd option on a title winning team.
Again...point?
Gasol was a top 15 or so player in the league before he joined the Lakers. Odom was a very good role player capable of doing many different things on both ends really well.
Kobe did not make them. Which is what this thread is implying. What he did...was allow them to win titles. Just like those guys allowed Kobe to win titles.
[QUOTE=Mr. Jabbar]dat ether :oldlol:
i think dmavs is well aware of this though, he sees the heat team as overly stacked[/QUOTE]
how is that ether?
who said Lebron made Bosh? I don't follow this it all.
[QUOTE=Nashty]Just read this, and you will see who carried who :cheers:
[url]http://www.behindthebasket.com/btb/2011/9/1/its-all-about-the-ws-kobe-bryant.html[/url][/QUOTE]
Watching the games >>>>>> reading about them years later
[QUOTE=Mr. Jabbar]numbers dont mean much without context, what were they fighting for? gasol was 0-12 in playoffs games without kobe, thats 3 SWEEPS in a row, now you can add another one for 0-16, thats a far more telling number if you ask me...ok, mem was a bad team with pau as a whole, but not able to win 1 game?[/QUOTE]
also, that would be like me saying that phil jackson made Kobe. what kind of success in the playoffs has Kobe had without phil jackson coaching?
it's a terrible argument and isn't even relevant.
[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]Watching the games >>>>>> reading about them years later[/QUOTE]
Apparently you Laker fans didn't watch the games otherwise you wouldn't be discrediting Kobe's teammates.
That article is very informative, has good contextual information and facts.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]also, that would be like me saying that phil jackson made Kobe. what kind of success in the playoffs has Kobe had without phil jackson coaching?
it's a terrible argument and isn't even relevant.[/QUOTE]
lol kobe has won many playoff games without phil
[QUOTE=Solefade]Apparently you Laker fans didn't watch the games otherwise you wouldn't be discrediting Kobe's teammates.
That article is very informative, has good contextual information and facts.[/QUOTE]
I watched the games, every single one. Bynum was an irrelavant as can be in 09. 10 wasn't that much better
Didn't average more than 25 mpg in either playoffs.
Odom was Odom, in consistent but at times an incredible asset who's well rounded game made up for some of the Lakers blatant weakness. However, he still posted marginal numbers in each playoff series.
People wanna talk about big men but most the time we had Gasol or Odom at the 5..
[QUOTE=Mr. Jabbar]lol kobe has won many playoff games without phil[/QUOTE]
so that is the barometer of success. how many playoff games you've won?
It is a non argument. Gasol could have joined the Spurs instead of the Lakers and won a ton. Odom...the same thing.
It was about finally being on a really good team.
Gasol and Odom had already shown what kind of players they were. The notion that Kobe "made them" is absurd....
You may not like it, but you don't just put up 21/10/3 by chance. You also don't just happen to lead average at best memphis squads to the playoffs 3 times either.
[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]I watched the games, every single one. Bynum was an irrelavant as can be in 09. 10 wasn't that much better
Didn't average more than 25 mpg in either playoffs.
Odom was Odom, in consistent but at times an incredible asset who's well rounded game made up for some of the Lakers blatant weakness. However, he still posted marginal numbers in each playoff series.
People wanna talk about big men but most the time we had Gasol or Odom at the 5..[/QUOTE]
You don't think other superstars (CP3, Melo, Wade, LBJ, etc.) would have wanted a duo of 7-footers with post moves and a 6'10" point forward?
I don't think the '09 and '10 Lakers teams were stacked by any means, but they by far had the best frontcourt in the league. Dwight Howard in the '09 finals had trouble protecting the paint against one of them, let alone all 3.
[QUOTE=VIP2000]You don't think other superstars would have wanted a duo of 7-footers with post moves and a 6'10" point forward?
I don't think the '09 and '10 Lakers teams were stacked by any means, but they by far had the best frontcourt in the league. Dwight Howard in the '09 finals had trouble protecting the paint against one of them, let alone all 3.[/QUOTE]
The whole "stacked" thing depends on what context it is in.
The back to back Lakers were not historically stacked, but they were stacked in comparison to the rest of the league. Kobe was a top 3 player...and had the best supporting cast of all the best players in the league.
Very similar in many ways to the current Heat. Not historically stacked the way Bosh and Wade are currently playing. But they make up the best supporting cast in the league right now.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]so that is the barometer of success. how many playoff games you've won?
It is a non argument. Gasol could have joined the Spurs instead of the Lakers and won a ton. Odom...the same thing.
It was about finally being on a really good team.
Gasol and Odom had already shown what kind of players they were. The notion that Kobe "made them" is absurd....
You may not like it, but you don't just put up 21/10/3 by chance. You also don't just happen to lead average at best memphis squads to the playoffs 3 times either.[/QUOTE]
look, gasol was not a bad player back in the day, he clearly lacked an under-pressure mentality though, you may not like it but 0-16 is not something you can just overlook. Anyway, this thread is to put kobes cast in those chips in perspective for some delusional guys, and I dont think you are one of them
[QUOTE=Mr. Jabbar]look, gasol was not a bad player back in the day, he clearly lacked an under-pressure mentality though, you may not like it but 0-16 is not something you can just overlook. Anyway, this thread is to put kobes cast in those chips in perspective for some delusional guys, and I dont think you are one of them[/QUOTE]
Saying that "Gasol was not a bad player" is so disrespectful to him. I'm not a Laker fan but he was so CRITICAL in those playoff runs in 09/10, I don't understand how you all can just brush off his impact in those years just so you can make a point that Kobe "did it with less". He was soft in '08 but he got over that hump in 09/10 and he got soft again (once he broke up with his girlfriend or whatever it was) and him being in the trade talks didn't help. But he was there when it mattered most.
[QUOTE=Solefade]Saying that "Gasol was not a bad player" is so disrespectful to him. I'm not a Laker fan but he was so CRITICAL in those playoff runs in 09/10, I don't understand how you all can just brush off his impact in those years just so you can make a point that Kobe "did it with less". He was soft in '08 but he got over that hump in 09/10 and he got soft again (once he broke up with his girlfriend or whatever it was) and him being in the trade talks didn't help. But he was there when it mattered most.[/QUOTE]
in the context of teams which won championships, kobe had average to below average help, thats all I'm saying,...and yes, gasol, was important.
Is it a coincidence that when players get old and/or injured, they don't perform as well?
No, it is not. Steve Nash won MVPs when he was in his prime and not old/injured. Dwight Howard took a team to the NBA Finals when he was not injured.
:hammerhead:
[QUOTE=Cleverness]Is it a coincidence that when players get old and/or injured, they don't perform as well?
No, it is not. Steve Nash won MVPs when he was in his prime and not old/injured. Dwight Howard took a team to the NBA Finals when he was not injured.
:hammerhead:[/QUOTE]
aging is not a valid excuse in Gasol's case
0-12 BEFORE Kobe, 0-4 AFTER Kobe
[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]I watched the games, every single one. Bynum was an irrelavant as can be in 09. 10 wasn't that much better
Didn't average more than 25 mpg in either playoffs.
Odom was Odom, in consistent but at times an incredible asset who's well rounded game made up for some of the Lakers blatant weakness. However, he still posted marginal numbers in each playoff series.
People wanna talk about big men but most the time we had Gasol or Odom at the 5..[/QUOTE]
Well shit, Bosh's impact doesn't show up in the numbers and at time he's inconsistent too, but he deserves all the credit for those little things he does for the team because someone has to. Bynum averaged around 15/8 in both of those championship seasons even with his limited minutes. You guys gotta be a little more objective about this, just saying.
[QUOTE=STATUTORY]aging is not a valid excuse in Gasol's case
0-12 BEFORE Kobe, 0-4 AFTER Kobe[/QUOTE]
Who gives a shit what his record was before and after? We can all acknowledge that no team was going to win a chip with Gasol as the first option (and also Vancouver/Memphis was a shitty organization until recent) but the fact of the matter was he did some heavy lifting in those championship years. Although his play has dramatically declined since 09/10, he's still probably considered one of the most skilled big men today.
[QUOTE=Solefade]Well shit, Bosh's impact doesn't show up in the numbers and at time he's inconsistent too, but he deserves all the credit for those little things he does for the team because someone has to[B]. Bynum averaged around 15/8 in both of those championship seasons[/B] even with his limited minutes. You guys gotta be a little more objective about this, just saying.[/QUOTE]
Please post Andrew Bynums playoff stats for those 2 championship runs
[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]Watching the games >>>>>> reading about them years later[/QUOTE]
Explain me please why are the Lakers played better without Kobe?
I think it's because he is a chucker, and Lakers dominant bigs can't get their shots when he's playing, and without him the offense goes through them, and the team plays much better.
Kobe is a great individual player, but he is not a team player, and he has no impact on his teams record. And don't give me that 5 rings s***, he won those just because of dominant bigs. Kobe was just holding Lakers back, they would won more rings if they didn't had Chuckbe on their team.
[QUOTE=Nashty][B]Explain me please why are the Lakers played better without Kobe?[/B]
I think it's because he is a chucker, and Lakers dominant bigs can't get their shots when he's playing, and without him the offense goes through them, and the team plays much better.
Kobe is a great individual player, but he is not a team player, and he has no impact on his teams record. And don't give me that 5 rings s***, he won those just because of dominant bigs. Kobe was just holding Lakers back, they would won more rings if they didn't had Chuckbe on their team.[/QUOTE]
why should i?
Anybody who thinks a team w/o their best player is better for it doesn't deserve a response. Are you using those couple of games in the REGULAR season when Kobe was out to justify your stance? :lol
[QUOTE=Mr. Jabbar]look, gasol was not a bad player back in the day, he clearly lacked an under-pressure mentality though, you may not like it but 0-16 is not something you can just overlook. Anyway, this thread is to put kobes cast in those chips in perspective for some delusional guys, and I dont think you are one of them[/QUOTE]
Ok. So you yield.
All Gasol's early years proved is that he wasn't a superstar and was most likely a great 2nd option. Which was confirmed by his time with the Lakers. Same thing with Odom...not good enough to be the 2nd guy...but a great 3rd guy.
The Lakers were not historically stacked...but they were stacked in relation to the rest of the league at that time. Kobe had a top supporting cast each year they won it. They never played a team with better players. You could maybe argue the 10 Celtics before Perk got hurt...maybe.
Take a minute and compare those Lakers teams to the 11 Mavs or something. Those Lakers teams were just prototypical championship teams from the coach on down.
You guys trash Gasol and Odom a lot on here, but those guys take a giant steaming turd on the likes of Terry and Chandler...etc.
So I'd just enjoy the fact that you are fans of a team that routinely has great rosters year in year out.
[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]Please post Andrew Bynums playoff stats for those 2 championship runs[/QUOTE]
His numbers aren't great, they are like 8/6 or something like that but around ~25 minutes/pg but you also have to consider that he averaged 5-6 shots a game where Kobe averaged 23 FGA and Gasol averaged around 12-13 a game in both those 09/10 years.
[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]why should i?
Anybody who thinks a team w/o their best player is better for it doesn't deserve a response. Are you using those couple of games in the REGULAR season when Kobe was out to justify your stance? :lol[/QUOTE]
I'm not talking about this season, I'm talking about all of his seasons. He was never a factor, and that's not my opinion, that's a fact, just look at the Lakers win-loss record with or without him through the years. He was literally carried to 5 rings. Chuckbe is the most overrated player in the history of sports.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]so that is the barometer of success. how many playoff games you've won?
It is a non argument. Gasol could have joined the Spurs instead of the Lakers and won a ton. Odom...the same thing.
It was about finally being on a really good team.
Gasol and Odom had already shown what kind of players they were. The notion that Kobe "made them" is absurd....
You may not like it, but you don't just put up 21/10/3 by chance. [B] You also don't just happen to lead average at best memphis squads to the playoffs 3 times either[/B].[/QUOTE]
I'm not on the side of "Kobe made Gasol" because he didn't, however i think you're undervaluing those Grizzly teams.
Each of those grizzlies teams that made the playoffs were extremely deep teams. Every one of those teams had 6 guys other than Gasol averaging double digit points for the season, which is pretty damn good.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
And the point being? Nobody ever said Gasol was a championship first option. Nobody ever said Odom was anything other than a really good 3rd option on a title winning team.[/QUOTE]
Um... while you may not have said these things, they have been said. People have said that Gasol was the first option for those Lakers and was robbed of 2 Finals MVPs. People have said that Odom and Gasol carried Bryant. :confusedshrug:
[QUOTE=MaxFly]Um... while you may not have said these things, they have been said. People have said that Gasol was the first option for those Lakers and was robbed of 2 Finals MVPs. People have said that Odom and Gasol carried Bryant. :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
No one said Gasol was ever a first option, more like he just performed better than Kobe in the finals which there's some truth to.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Both Odom and Gasol were already awesome players without Kobe. Bynum hasn't played a game yet without Kobe so we just don't know.
21/10/3
17/10/4
What are the above numbers you ask? You guessed it...the averages of Gasol and Odom the year before they both joined the Lakers.
But yea...they are nothing without Kobe.[/QUOTE]
These numbers alone are all that's needed to disprove the OP's logic. Maybe he should have checked the stats of these players before making such a silly thread.
[QUOTE=MaxFly]Um... while you may not have said these things, they have been said. People have said that Gasol was the first option for those Lakers and was robbed of 2 Finals MVPs. People have said that Odom and Gasol carried Bryant. :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
I've heard people claim Gasol was better than Kobe in the 10 finals...never that he was their first option or best player overall.
And, I mus stay, it is not crazy to say that Gasol was the best player in the 10 finals. It's a toss up to me. I guess it depends how much you value the last game.
All I know is that Gasol averaged 20/11/4 in the playoffs in 10 and came up huge in the biggest game of the playoffs. And stepped up time and time again with rim protection with Bynum playing limited minutes.
Not sure why Lakers fans have to try and credit Kobe with that.
I can't even imagine what Lakers fans would do having to pull for teams that weren't stacked for more than a couple years. Hell, you guys made Howard out to be a complete scrub this year....and many Kobe fans have tried to claim that Tyson Chandler was the reason the Mavs beat them in 11. Yet...Howard this year, even at his worst, is a much better player than Chandler.
So...just appreciate what you have Lakers fans.