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On the Hornets, he had Tyson Chandler, one of the best defensive bigs, and David West one of the best post scorers in the league. What did CP3 accomplish with the Hornets?
In LA, CP3 has one of the most stacked teams in the league. What has CP3 accomplished?
What has CP3 done to prove himself to be the #1 PG in the league right now and an all time great?
:confusedshrug:
He has accomplished the excuse that his teamates sucks on any team he plays, so his lack of winning success in playoffs is not his fault.
[QUOTE=Frozen1]He has accomplished the excuse that his teamates sucks on any team he plays, so his lack of winning success in playoffs is not his fault.[/QUOTE]
David West and Tyson Chandler are really good doe:confusedshrug:
always kind of felt this way about Paul. We'll see after this season though. Solid team, not horrible coach, and some good players (Griffin really improving, JJ playing well when he wasn't hurt, and DJ improving defensively)
I think he needs to make a good playoff run this year.
He helped State Farm increase their annual revenue by 2.356%, and made their stock portfolio more attractive to investors than ever.
Thank you Cliff Paul.
exact what kobe accomplished without phil jackson
These topics are always annoying. About anyone. "Other than ____ what has ____ even done!" as if the _____ isn't omitted just because reality as it is doesn't paint the picture the person is looking for. If you need qualifiers or to omit anything....you probably don't have a good point to make.
Nobody is gonna disregard that hes third behind Stockton and Magic in assists per game. Or that hes led the NBA in steals 5 times. Hes 5 times all NBA and all D team. Hes a 6 time all star at 27. His resume looks better half way through his career than some HOF points look completed.
Which has nothing to do with the fact that hes on a short list of the best pick and roll runners of all time behind Stockton and Mark Price. Or that hes one of the best points ever when it comes to doing what his team needs at the moment....hes about as capable a scorer as the point guard position has seen in 20 years but hes also as good a playmaker as any have been in that time. Hes a good defender. Has a great command of his team...the respect of his teammates...and hes performed well in the playoffs. He can run the break like few ever and operate in the halfcourt like few ever.
There is nothing you can say about his team success you cant say about Oscar Robertsons. Neither won more than one playoff series in a season as their teams best player. But Oscar is considered all time great for the same reason Paul will be.
An appreciation of basketball not being clouded by nonsense and hate.
Wanna know why Paul is going down as an all time great point guard?
He plays basketball better than most point guard ever did.
How is that hard to grasp?
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]These topics are always annoying. About anyone. "Other than ____ what has ____ even done!" as if the _____ isn't omitted just because reality as it is doesn't paint the picture the person is looking for. If you need qualifiers or to omit anything....you probably don't have a good point to make.
Nobody is gonna disregard that hes third behind Stockton and Magic in assists per game. Or that hes led the NBA in steals 5 times. Hes 5 times all NBA and all D team. Hes a 6 time all star at 27. His resume looks better half way through his career than some HOF points look completed.
Which has nothing to do with the fact that hes on a short list of the best pick and roll runners of all time behind Stockton and Mark Price. Or that hes one of the best points ever when it comes to doing what his team needs at the moment....hes about as capable a scorer as the point guard position has seen in 20 years but hes also as good a playmaker as any have been in that time. Hes a good defender. Has a great command of his team...the respect of his teammates...and hes performed well in the playoffs. He can run the break like few ever and operate in the halfcourt like few ever.
There is nothing you can say about his team success you cant say about Oscar Robertsons. Neither won more than one playoff series in a season as their teams best player. But Oscar is considered all time great for the same reason Paul will be.
An appreciation of basketball not being clouded by nonsense and hate.
Wanna know why Paul is going down as an all time great point guard?
He plays basketball better than most point guard ever did.
How is that hard to grasp?[/QUOTE]Exactly. Finally somebody gets it besides myself.
If asked what is lacking in Chris Pauls game as a point guard you know what a lot of his haters would have to say?
"Making it past the second round"
Which really says it all. There is no basketball argument against Chris Paul being an all time great. Hes a half step from flawless far as his point guard skillset.
Chris Paul is a brilliant....just...****ing brilliant point guard.
The rest is just people mad on the internet because that's how people on the internet act.
Absolutely nothing...
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]If asked what is lacking in Chris Pauls game as a point guard you know what a lot of his haters would have to say?
"Making it past the second round"
Which really says it all. There is no basketball argument against Chris Paul being an all time great. Hes a half step from flawless far as his point guard skillset.
Chris Paul is a brilliant....just...****ing brilliant point guard.
The rest is just people mad on the internet because that's how people on the internet act.[/QUOTE]
But the only time anyone says that is when people place Paul as the clear cut 2nd best pg ever....or clearly better than the likes of Kidd or Stockton...etc.
I don't see many people, if any, deny the brilliance of Chris Paul. I think he could go down as the 2nd best pg ever. But he actually has to do stuff....like get past the 2nd round with more than capable teams. Every other player in history is judged on that...not sure why Paul wouldn't be.
He wants to be known and better than Kidd and Stockton...make some noise in the playoffs. I think that is fair...
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]These topics are always annoying. About anyone. "Other than ____ what has ____ even done!" as if the _____ isn't omitted just because reality as it is doesn't paint the picture the person is looking for. If you need qualifiers or to omit anything....you probably don't have a good point to make.
Nobody is gonna disregard that hes third behind Stockton and Magic in assists per game. Or that hes led the NBA in steals 5 times. Hes 5 times all NBA and all D team. Hes a 6 time all star at 27. His resume looks better half way through his career than some HOF points look completed.
Which has nothing to do with the fact that hes on a short list of the best pick and roll runners of all time behind Stockton and Mark Price. Or that hes one of the best points ever when it comes to doing what his team needs at the moment....hes about as capable a scorer as the point guard position has seen in 20 years but hes also as good a playmaker as any have been in that time. Hes a good defender. Has a great command of his team...the respect of his teammates...and hes performed well in the playoffs. He can run the break like few ever and operate in the halfcourt like few ever.
There is nothing you can say about his team success you cant say about Oscar Robertsons. Neither won more than one playoff series in a season as their teams best player. But Oscar is considered all time great for the same reason Paul will be.
An appreciation of basketball not being clouded by nonsense and hate.
Wanna know why Paul is going down as an all time great point guard?
He plays basketball better than most point guard ever did.
How is that hard to grasp?[/QUOTE]
:applause: Someone who gets it.
It's a shame how people treat all-time great players who are still in the league, it isn't until that player is in their mid 30's when they truly realize how great of a player he really is. In the past 12 hours I have heard some say how Price and Stockton were better players than CP3 which is ridiculous, some feel like these past players have no flaws. It's ok, 10-20 years from now people will truly realize how great CP3 was/is. It's a shame some can't recognize true greatness in the moment.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]But the only time anyone says that is when people place Paul as the clear cut 2nd best pg ever....or clearly better than the likes of Kidd or Stockton...etc.
I don't see many people, if any, deny the brilliance of Chris Paul. I think he could go down as the 2nd best pg ever. But he actually has to do stuff....like get past the 2nd round with more than capable teams. Every other player in history is judged on that...not sure why Paul wouldn't be.
He wants to be known and better than Kidd and Stockton...make some noise in the playoffs. I think that is fair...[/QUOTE]
Paul is CLEARLY better than Stockton, open your eyes.
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]These topics are always annoying. About anyone. "Other than ____ what has ____ even done!" as if the _____ isn't omitted just because reality as it is doesn't paint the picture the person is looking for. If you need qualifiers or to omit anything....you probably don't have a good point to make.
Nobody is gonna disregard that hes third behind Stockton and Magic in assists per game. Or that hes led the NBA in steals 5 times. Hes 5 times all NBA and all D team. Hes a 6 time all star at 27. His resume looks better half way through his career than some HOF points look completed.
Which has nothing to do with the fact that hes on a short list of the best pick and roll runners of all time behind Stockton and Mark Price. Or that hes one of the best points ever when it comes to doing what his team needs at the moment....hes about as capable a scorer as the point guard position has seen in 20 years but hes also as good a playmaker as any have been in that time. Hes a good defender. Has a great command of his team...the respect of his teammates...and hes performed well in the playoffs. He can run the break like few ever and operate in the halfcourt like few ever.
There is nothing you can say about his team success you cant say about Oscar Robertsons. Neither won more than one playoff series in a season as their teams best player. But Oscar is considered all time great for the same reason Paul will be.
An appreciation of basketball not being clouded by nonsense and hate.
Wanna know why Paul is going down as an all time great point guard?
He plays basketball better than most point guard ever did.
How is that hard to grasp?[/QUOTE]
:applause:
agreed, before me and my buddy were arguing cp3 vs westbrook i told him call me when cp gets to an nba finals
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]Paul is CLEARLY better than Stockton, open your eyes.[/QUOTE]
Uhhh...no, he really isn't.
Kblaze went in.
legacy is overrated. you got game or you don't.
is anyone going to argue that eli manning is a better quarterback than dan marino or jim kelly? or even peyton manning? **** no. those are the same people that are like "kobe is better than ________ cus he has more rings" but when you say "robert horry has more rings than kobe" it doesn't apply for some reason.
Paul in his 8 year career has already made more All-NBA First Teams than Stockton who played 19 seasons.
BTW Stockton would probably never have sniffed an All-NBA First Team if Jordan didn't retire in the mid 90's
The problem is these idiots don't know how to separate team success from individual play.
Tony Parker had way more team success than Oscar Robertson. Does that mean he's better? No, it just means he was in a better winning situation.
If Paul played with Malone or Duncan his whole career, would that make him a better player or just a luckier player?
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]Paul in his 8 year career has already made more All-NBA First Teams than Stockton who played 19 seasons.
BTW Stockton would probably never have sniffed an All-NBA First Team if Jordan didn't retire in the mid 90's[/QUOTE]
Paul might be better, but that literally has no bearing on anything. Wade only has 2 first teams, iirc. Wonderful argument.
What did Charles Barkley accomplish outside of stats?
What did Karl Malone accomplish outside of stats?
What did John Stockton accomplish outside of stats?
What did Patrick Ewing accomplish outside of stats?
What did Steve Nash accomplish outside of stats?
What did Clyde Drexler accomplish outside of stats?
What did Dominque Wilkins accomplish outside of stats?
What did Reggie Miller accomplish outside of stats?
What has Kevin Durant accomplished outside of stats?
[QUOTE=bdreason]What did Charles Barkley accomplish outside of stats?
What did Karl Malone accomplish outside of stats?
What did John Stockton accomplish outside of stats?
What did Patrick Ewing accomplish outside of stats?
What did Steve Nash accomplish outside of stats?
What did Clyde Drexler accomplish outside of stats?
What did Dominque Wilkins accomplish outside of stats?
What did Reggie Miller accomplish outside of stats?
What has Kevin Durant accomplished outside of stats?[/QUOTE]
There are literally only 2 guys on this list that haven't made the finals as the best player.
[QUOTE=longtime lurker]There are literally only 2 guys on this list that haven't made the finals as the best player.[/QUOTE]And they all played on better squads than Paul with much better teammates and coaching.
cp3 is a great player
but if you grew up seeing prime kj, prime tim hardaway young gp, prime stockton in the league(and conference) at roughly the same time
be hard for you to get say that cp is is an alltime great
especially since deron williams has his way with cp every game.....the dudes listed above would feast on cp
[QUOTE=moe94]Paul might be better, but that literally has no bearing on anything. Wade only has 2 first teams, irrc. Wonderful argument.[/QUOTE]
That would only help my argument, Wade only making 2 All-NBA First teams shows you how stacked the guard position was. CP3 had to battle with Kobe, Wade, Nash, Parker, Westbrook, Rose (the year he won MVP).
Stockton made an All-NBA First team the same year Latrell Sprewell made it. BTW Stockton [B]NEVER[/B] made an All-NBA First team when [B]Jordan[/B] was in the league for a full season.
[QUOTE=Solefade]legacy is overrated. you got game or you don't.
is anyone going to argue that eli manning is a better quarterback than dan marino or jim kelly? or even peyton manning? **** no. those are the same people that are like "kobe is better than ________ cus he has more rings" [B]but when you say "robert horry has more rings than kobe" it doesn't apply for some reason.[/B][/QUOTE]:facepalm
Context
[QUOTE=gts]:facepalm
Context[/QUOTE]
oh so context finally comes into play when it comes to horry > kobe :lol why isn't there context for kobe's first 3 rings?
anyway not trying to make this thread about Kobe but CP3 is a top 5 PG of all time regardless of how his final NBA resume turns out.
[QUOTE=avonbarksdale]agreed, before me and my buddy were arguing cp3 vs westbrook i told him call me when cp gets to an nba finals[/QUOTE]
This is why I separate career success from how good a player is/was.
For career success you can simply look at awards, rings and the like (I'd argue that Paul would still win this regardless of Westbrook's one finals appearance). Even a lazy person or someone with low bball IQ can have a decent opinion on this.
But when discussing how good a player is/was, and to have a good discussion at that, you can't be lazy and throw out one finals appearance as a counter point. You have to use the eye test season to season as well as in specific high importance moments (ALL facets of a player's game). You need to look at stats to a certain extent (whether old and/or new age stats). If a player's team had success, who was on the team? If you put that player on another compared player's team, how would they do? How would the team's success be altered? You have to look at the level of talent in the league at the time the player was playing (if applicable) and gauge if said player's greatness was a product of the times or if his game was transferable to any generation. What are the leadership qualities of the player? There are other things I'm not thinking of I'm sure.
Some people here imo overrated Paul especially in his NO days, but if you're asking me as a GM, who would I pick to be on my team between Paul and Westbrook, I'd choose Paul.
[QUOTE=Young X]The problem is these idiots don't know how to separate team success from individual play.
Tony Parker had way more team success than Oscar Robertson. Does that mean he's better? No, it just means he was in a better winning situation.
If Paul played with Malone or Duncan his whole career, would that make him a better player or just a luckier player?[/QUOTE]
Very few people, if any, take Parker over Paul.
So again I don't see the validity of this argument. Nobody is asking for titles from Paul...but at least a conference finals would be nice from a guy that is supposed to be as good as you guys claim.
I'm sure he'll eventually do it, but all we have so far is his career to date. And it puts him somewhere in the top 10 pg's of all time. I honestly have no clue where. He's just in that grouping...and hasn't done enough to separate himself from some of the past greats.
So again...what is the point here? That Paul is clearly better than guys like Penny, Stockton, Kidd? Is that what you are saying?
[QUOTE]But he actually has to do stuff....like get past the 2nd round with more than capable teams. Every other player in history is judged on that...not sure why Paul wouldn't be.[/QUOTE]
There isnt one player in NBa history ive ever heard "Never got past the second round" about. Its a nothing argument.
Who has ever given a shit about a 3rd round loss as opposed to a second? Ive been watching and arguing about basketball all my life and I never once heard the term "Get past the second round" until people on the internet wanted to hate on Chris Paul.
And no people have not been waiting for some arbitrary thing like this to point out greatness. Michael Jordan was called the best ever by more than a few people before he had won anything Chris Paul has not. Same for Oscar Robertson. Larry Bird got GOAT talk as a rookie in the first round of the playoffs. I could show you articles on Kareem being the best center ever as a rookie and second year player before he won.
You know why? Exceptional basketball playing.
All that legacy shit is mostly for places like this where people have gone so far into arguing they dont appreciate the game in front of them anymore.
Chris Paul goes to the WCF his bounce passes wont be any more crisp and his playcalling no more apt. But people who for the most part argue points like:
[QUOTE]agreed, before me and my buddy were arguing cp3 vs westbrook i told him call me when cp gets to an nba finals[/QUOTE]
...will be more impressed....because they are ****ing idiots and dont care about the game they are talking about.
Its little better than my young cousin who says Melo is better than Jordan because "They aint play no defense back in the day...and that ***** Melo too cold!"
When the argument comes down to "Yea but what round did he go out? Second or third?" like that carries the day it might as well be "That ***** too cold!" to me.
Players either win or they dont. Falling 3 rounds short as opposed to 2 has never been what decided if a player is a winner or not and it never should be.
We gotta throw things like that in at least use finals trips....
Not that going to the finals would make Chris Paul anything he isnt right now anyway.....
[QUOTE=bdreason]What did Charles Barkley accomplish outside of stats?
What did Karl Malone accomplish outside of stats?
What did John Stockton accomplish outside of stats?
What did Patrick Ewing accomplish outside of stats?
What did Steve Nash accomplish outside of stats?
What did Clyde Drexler accomplish outside of stats?
What did Dominque Wilkins accomplish outside of stats?
What did Reggie Miller accomplish outside of stats?
What has Kevin Durant accomplished outside of stats?[/QUOTE]
getting deep into the playoffs/ getting to the finals
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]There isnt one player in NBa history ive ever heard "Never got past the second round" about. Its a nothing argument.
Who has ever given a shit about a 3rd round loss as opposed to a second? Ive been watching and arguing about basketball all my life and I never once heard the term "Get past the second round" until people on the internet wanted to hate on Chris Paul.
And no people have not been waiting for some arbitrary thing like this to point out greatness. Michael Jordan was called the best ever by more than a few people before he had won anything Chris Paul has not. Same for Oscar Robertson. Larry Bird got GOAT talk as a rookie in the first round of the playoffs. I could show you articles on Kareem being the best center ever as a rookie and second year player before he won.
You know why? Exceptional basketball playing.
All that legacy shit is mostly for places like this where people have gone so far into arguing they dont appreciate the game in front of them anymore.
Chris Paul goes to the WCF his bounce passes wont be any more crisp and his playcalling no more apt. But people who for the most part argue points like:
...will be more impressed....because they are ****ing idiots and dont care about the game they are talking about.
Its little better than my young cousin who says Melo is better than Jordan because "They aint play no defense back in the day...and that ***** Melo too cold!"
When the argument comes down to "Yea but what round did he go out? Second or third?" like that carries the day it might as well be "That ***** too cold!" to me.
Players either win or they dont. Falling 3 rounds short as opposed to 2 has never been what decided if a player is a winner or not and it never should be.
We gotta throw things like that in at least use finals trips....
Not that going to the finals would make Chris Paul anything he isnt right now anyway.....[/QUOTE]
The difference is that CP3 isn't that kind of player. Like...you really think is better than Jason Kidd ever was? I sure as hell don't.
It's about where you rate him for that argument...which you obviously missed...or just disregarded. If you rate him somewhere in the top 10 pg's ever...then it's not a valid argument.
But if people start saying he's the best pg ever after Magic...I have some issues giving that title to a guy that hasn't really ever done anything in the playoffs. I haven't seen him play under the pressure of conference finals or nba finals. I haven't seen how he handles deep playoff runs on and off the court. I haven't seen if he can consistently come through in clutch playoff moments...etc.
To act like what happens in the playoffs is meaningless is silly. The game is different. No more feasting against crap teams. Tons of pressure. Physical beatings...etc.
Sorry if I need to see a bit more from Paul before I crown him the best pg ever after Magic.
Ive noticed you often ask me questions about things I have never even brought up. Or said a word about. Im not sure why.....but I notice you do that like every third time I speak t you. You ask me "So you really think ___?" as if I said I thought it or as if something I replied to was even on the subject. Where do you even get Jason Kidd out of anything ive said?
What in my words brings you to ask me:
"Like...you really think is better than Jason Kidd ever was? I sure as hell don't."
Where does the "really" come from? its as if I said it...and you are now asking me to reiterate it. When I dont think its anywhere in anything I said...in my life.
Its hard to do this when im asked to answer for things so far out of left field. I dont know how anything in here:
[QUOTE]What has CP3 done to prove himself to be the #1 PG in the league right now and an all time great?[/QUOTE]
And my responses to that idiotic question even lead you to ask me some of these questions.
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Ive noticed you often ask me questions about things I have never even brought up. Or said a word about. Im not sure why.....but I notice you do that like every third time I speak t you. You ask me "So you really think ___?" as if I said I thought it or as if something I replied to was even on the subject. Where do you even get Jason Kidd out of anything ive said?
What in my words brings you to ask me:
"Like...you really think is better than Jason Kidd ever was? I sure as hell don't."
Where does the "really" come from? its as if I said it...and you are now asking me to reiterate it. When I dont think its anywhere in anything I said...in my life.
Its hard to do this when im asked to answer for things so far out of left field. I dont know how anything in here:
And my responses to that idiotic question even lead you to ask me some of these questions.[/QUOTE]
I'm asking you questions because you rarely just state your position. You responded to Paul never getting past the 2nd round as a nothing argument. I of course hugely disagree...I think how players play in the playoffs matters a lot more than you do clearly.
Not to mention my response about the 2nd round stuff was in response to your post claiming it just doesn't matter, but it actually really does. You really think if Paul never gets out of the 2nd round for his career....that it shouldn't impact where we place him in history?
I asked about Kidd because I would like to know where you actually rank, because now I am having to say this for the third time;
Where you rank him matters for this discussion. Could you just state where you rank Paul all time as a pg? That shouldn't be too difficult...
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Very few people, if any, take Parker over Paul.
So again I don't see the validity of this argument. Nobody is asking for titles from Paul...but at least a conference finals would be nice from a guy that is supposed to be as good as you guys claim.[/QUOTE]If getting to the conference finals without context is your berometer than why wouldn't you take Parker over Paul? After all Parker's an all star caliber player who's been to 9 conference finals right? I'm just going by your logic.
[QUOTE=Young X]:applause: Exactly. Thought I was the only person that's gets it.[/QUOTE]
But you don't get it and you aren't doing that.
Haven't seen you once mention how the current league is basically designed for pg's. It's absurdly easy right now to get anywhere you want on the court as perimeter player...especially a pg.
The game has changed so much...and if "stats" are the basis of your argument...it's horribly flawed because of what a joke the perimeter defense rules have been since 04...
Doesn't seem like you are factoring that shit in at all.
the clippers have never been stacked u dumb ****
All-star MVP :pimp:
I rarely state my position either way in an argument because what most often catches my eye is an absurd statement made by someone on one side or the other. I rarely even care which side is right or what they are talking about. Dumb statements catch my eye.
Far as where I rank Paul....you think I have a numbered top 16 point guards list I adjust now and then or what?
Magic Johnson is the best point guard ive seen.
Oscar may have been as good or better. I dont have enough evidence to argue it.
Them aside...
Paul isnt any worse than anyone ive seen with the possible exception of Isiah Thomas who like Paul I felt could just do anything he wanted....
Numbers? Eh.
I dont know how to put Chris Paul 4th and Jason Kidd 7th or what to do with John Stockton.
I could tell you player vs player easier than giving a list.