Larry Bird vs. Magic Johnson - Complete Career Head-to-Head Stats

[U][B]79-80 Season[/B][/U]

12/28/1979

Magic: 23/8/6/0/4 (7/14, 9/10) W
Bird: 16/4/3 (7/15, 2/3)

Lakers win 123-105.

1/13/1980

Magic: 1/3/2/0/2 (0/2, 1/2) W
Bird: 14/12/1 (7/12, 0/0)

Lakers in 100-98. Kareem has 33/12 game.


[U][B]81-82 Season[/B][/U]

2/14/1982

Magic: 19/10/8 (6/11, 7/9)
Bird: 12/9/9 (4/11, 4/5) W

Celtics win 108-103.


[U][B]82-83 Season[/B][/U]

1/20/1983

Magic: 14/9/10 (5/10, 4/4)
Bird: 21/13/8 (9/22, 3/3) W

Celtics win 110-95.

2/23/1983

Magic: 20/13/10 (9/21, 2/3)
Bird: 32/17/9 (13/23, 4/6) W

Celtics win 113-104.


[B][U]83-84 Season[/U][/B]

2/8/1984

Magic: 20/8/10/?/6 (9/13, 2/2) W
Bird: 29/11/7 (12/19, 5/5)

Lakers win 111-109.

2/24/1984

Magic: 9/8/18/?/3 (4/11, 1/2) W
Bird: 14/11/5/2 (6/12, 2/2)

Lakers win 116-108. Kareem has 31/7/5 game.


[B][U]'84 Playoffs[/U][/B]

Game 1

Magic: 18/6/10/0/4 (7/11, 4/4) W
Bird: 24/14/5 (7/17, 9/11)

Lakers win 115-109. Kareem has 32/8/5 game on 71% shooting in a dominant effort.

Game 2

Magic: 27/10/9/1/0 (10/14, 7/7)
Bird: 27/13/3/2 (8/22, 11/15) W

Celtics win 124-121 in OT. Johnson stupidly burns a timeout and then lets the clock run out at the end of regulation. In OT Celtics use the chance they get to win the game.

Game 3

Magic: 14/11/21/1/1 (4/6, 6/10) W
Bird: 30/7/2/1 (9/16, 12/15)

Lakers win in a huge blowout 137-104.

Game 4

Magic: 20/11/17/0/2 (8/12, 4/7)
Bird: 29/21/2/0 (9/24, 10/10) W

Celtics win 129-125 in OT. Magic and Worthy each miss 2 free throws in the last seconds of regulation. Kareem has a dominant 32/8/6 game with 2 blocks and 4 steals. Lakers choke yet again.

Game 5

Magic: 10/5/13/2/2 (3/9, 4/6)
Bird: 34/17/2/1 (15/20, 2/4) W

In the infamous Heat game in the Boston Garden the Celtics obliterate the Lakers 121-103. Kareem and Worthy visibly struggled to breathe during the game. Bird dominated in the hellish conditions.

Game 6

Magic: 21/6/10/0/1 (10/18, 1/2) W
Bird: 28/14/8/3 (8/11, 12/13)

Lakers force a deciding Game 7 at the Garden winning 119-108. Kareem had another dominant performance with 30/10/5.

Game 7

Magic: 16/5/15/2/4 (5/14, 6/7)
Bird: 20/12/3/1 (6/18, 8/8) W

Celtics in 111-102 to win a championship. Bird wins Finals MVP. Kareem had 29/6/4 in the clincher.

[B]Series Stats

Magic: 18.0 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 13.6 apg, 0.9 bpg, 2.0 spg on 56.0 %FG/61.2 %TS and 4.6 topg
Bird: 27.4 ppg, 14.0 rpg, 3.6 apg, 1.1 bpg, 2.1 spg on 48.4 %FG/59.5 %TS and 3.6 topg[/B]


[B][U]84-85 Season[/U][/B]

1/16/1985

Magic: 8/7/13/0/2 (4/11, 0/0)
Bird: 19/11/7/0/1 (9/16, 1/1) W

Celtics win 104-102. Kareem has 33/7/4 game.

2/17/1985

Magic: 37/3/13/0/2 (10/16, 17/19) W
Bird: 33/15/3/0/3 (14/22, 4/5)

Lakers win 117-111.


[B][U]'85 Playoffs[/U][/B]

Game 1

Magic: 19/1/12/0/3 (8/14, 3/4)
Bird: 19/6/9/0/3 (8/14, 2/2) W

Celtics win 148-114 in what becomes known as the Memorial Day Massacre. Kareem scores 12 points in 22 minutes and is never factor in this one.

Game 2

Magic: 14/4/13/0/3 (6/9, 2/4) W
Bird: 30/12/3/2/2 (9/21, 1/1)

Lakers win 109-102. Kareem has a monster 30/17/8 game with 3 blocks.

Game 3

Magic: 17/9/16/0/2 (6/13, 4/4) W
Bird: 20/7/3/0/1 (8/21, 4/5)

Lakers win 136-111 in a big blowout. Kareem puts up 26/14/7 on 10/13 shooting. McHale has 31/10 on 10/13 shooting as well.

Game 4

Magic: 20/11/12/0/2 (5/12, 10/11)
Bird: 26/11/5/1/3 (8/16, 10/12) W

Celtics win 107-105.

Game 5

Magic: 26/6/17/0/2 (11/20, 4/4) W
Bird: 20/7/7/1/1 (8/17, 3/5)

Lakers win 120-111. Kareem dominates with 36/7/7 with 3 blocks.

Game 6

Magic: 14/10/14/0/1 (5/15, 4/4) W
Bird: 28/10/3/0/1 (12/29, 4/5)

Lakers clinch the title with a 111-100 win. Kareem has 29/7/4 game once again on blistering efficiency. KAJ wins Finals MVP averaging 25.7/9.0/5.2 on 60.4% shooting for the series. McHale has 32/16 in a loss.

[B]Series Stats

Magic: 18.3 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 14.0 apg, 0.0 bpg, 2.2 spg on 49.4 %FG/56.9 %TS and 3.3 topg
Bird: 23.8 ppg, 8.8 rpg, 5.0 apg, 0.7 bpg, 1.8 spg on 44.9 %FG/52.7 %TS and 2.2 topg[/B]


[B][U]85-86 Season[/U][/B]

1/22/1986

Magic: 15/1/6/0/3 (6/10, 3/3)
Bird: 21/12/7/0/3 (8/16, 4/4) W

Celtics win 110-95.

2/16/1986

Magic: 6/6/12/0/2 (0/4, 6/6)
Bird: 22/18/7/0/0 (7/17, 8/12) W

Celtics win 105-99.


[B][U]86-87 Season[/U][/B]

12/12/1986

Magic: 31/7/8/1/2 (13/25, 5/7) W
Bird: 26/3/6/1/0 (11/13, 3/3)

Lakers win 117-110.

2/15/1987

Magic: 39/7/10/0/2 (12/20, 14/15) W
Bird: 20/5/7/2/1 (7/12, 5/7)

Lakers in 106-103.


[B][U]'87 Playoffs[/U][/B]

Game 1

Magic: 29/8/13/1/2 (13/25, 3/3) W
Bird: 32/7/6/0/1 (14/25, 4/4)

Lakers win 126-113.

Game 2

Magic: 22/5/20/0/3 (10/17, 2/2) W
Bird: 23/10/4/1/1 (9/17, 4/5)

Lakers win in a blowout 141-122.

Game 3

Magic: 32/11/9/0/1 (12/18, 8/8)
Bird: 30/12/4/1/0 (10/24, 10/11) W

Celtics win 109-103.

Game 4

Magic: 29/8/5/0/1 (12/20, 5/6) W
Bird: 21/10/7/2/1 (7/19, 5/5)

Lakers in 107-106. Magic hits the infamous baby hook over Kevin McHale to give the Lakers a 3-1 series lead.

Game 5

Magic: 29/8/12/0/4 (12/21, 4/4)
Bird: 23/12/7/1/2 (7/18, 8/9) W

Celtics win 123-108 to stave off elimination. Boston gets 20+ point outings from all five of their starters.

Game 6

Magic: 16/8/19/1/3 (7/21, 2/2) W
Bird: 16/9/5/2/2 (6/16, 4/4)

Lakers clinch the title with a 106-93 win. 40-year old Kareem has a 32-point game and makes couple of key baskets late including a pair of free throws with 30 seconds left to close it out. DJ has a huge 3/10/5 game for Boston in a losing effort.

[B]Series Stats

Magic: 26.2 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 13.0 apg, 0.3 bpg, 2.3 spg on 54.1 %FG/59.0 %TS and 2.2 topg
Bird: 24.2 ppg, 10.0 rpg, 5.5 apg, 1.2 bpg, 1.2 spg on 44.5 %FG/53.4 %TS and 3.0 topg[/B]


[B][U]87-88 Season[/U][/B]

12/11/1987

Magic: 18/8/17/0/2 (6/11, 5/6) W
Bird: 35/9/8/2/5 (14/26, 6/8)

Lakers win 115-114.

2/14/1988

Magic: 22/5/14/0/3 (9/19, 4/7) W
Bird: 25/17/4/1/0 (8/22, 9/11)

Lakers win 115-106.


[B][U]89-90 Season[/U][/B]

12/15/1989

Magic: 16/6/21/0/6 (4/12, 8/8) W
Bird: 21/12/2/0/3 (9/27, 2/2)

Lakers win 119-110.

2/18/1990

Magic: 30/4/13/0/1 (10/21, 7/7) W
Bird: 20/7/7/0/1 (9/17, 2/2)

Lakers in 116-110.


[B][U]90-91 Season[/U][/B]

2/15/1991

Magic: 21/9/16/1/1 (7/13, 6/8)
Bird: 11/11/11/0/2 (4/16, 2/2) W

Celtics win 98-85.



[B]Cumulative Regular Season Stats[/B]

Magic: 19.4 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 11.4 apg on 49.6 %FG/59.0 %TS
Bird: 21.7 ppg, 10.9 rpg, 6.2 apg on 49.7 %FG/55.3 %TS

Lakers went 11-7 against the Celtics.

[B]Cumulative Playoff Stats[/B]

Magic: 20.7 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 13.4 apg, 0.4 bpg, 2.2 spg on 53.3 %FG/59.0 %TS and 3.4 topg
Bird: 25.3 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.1 bpg, 1.5 spg on 46.0 %FG/55.5 %TS and 2.6 topg

Lakers went 2-1 in finals series and 11-8 in games against the Celtics.

Why do people say Bird was better than Magic?

[QUOTE=navy]Why do people say Bird was better than Magic?[/QUOTE]
They're comparable, with edge going to Bird. When he was healthy at least. Bird has edge in scoring, rebounds, defense. Magic only really had edge in assists, and sometimes steals. Magic had more offensive threats in Kareem, and Worthy. Bird had defensive role players, shooters, and Kevin McHale. I think Larry at his peak was better, Magic had superior longevity.

[QUOTE=navy]Why do people say Bird was better than Magic?[/QUOTE]

Bird's peak was just epic. Also it seems as if that was the consensus until '87. Until then, Kareem was yet viewed as the leader of the Lakers. By '87, Bird had been "the man" or viewed as the leader of the Celtics for several years. It's also worth noting that so often when players are comparable, the edge in many people's minds is going to lean towards the one who scores more points.

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]They're comparable, with edge going to Bird. When he was healthy at least. Bird has edge in scoring, rebounds, defense. Magic only really had edge in assists, and sometimes steals. Magic had more offensive threats in Kareem, and Worthy. Bird had defensive role players, shooters, and Kevin McHale. I think Larry at his peak was better, Magic had superior longevity.[/QUOTE]

The massive difference is assist, plus slightly in efficiency far makes up for Birds scoring though. In my opinion. They played different positions though.

Cool, thanks!

Magic was slightly better which I have always said.

[QUOTE=juju151111]Magic was slightly better which I have always said.[/QUOTE]

How would you rank their top 10 combined seasons?

[QUOTE=jlip]Bird's peak was just epic. Also it seems as if that was the consensus until '87. Until then, Kareem was yet viewed as the leader of the Lakers. By '87, Bird had been "the man" or viewed as the leader of the Celtics for several years. It's also worth noting that so often when players are comparable, the edge in many people's minds is going to lean towards the one who scores more points.[/QUOTE]
NAaa, not true. Definitely not true when one was winning more and influenced the playoffs more. Lebron/Durant.

Bird is definitely top 3 if you go mind/skillset/toughness. With two more healthy complete years I think he has to be in every bodies top five. That kind of Hirt him as a lot of guys have three great years.

A lot of people here were saying Kareem had a 12 year prime. The Magic years, were very distinct, from the other 9 years when Kareem had the energy to do the things he needed to. Coincidence?

I do not care about regular season games. But let's ignore the fact that the Celtics were basically benchless in 1987 Finals and Bird was recovering from an injury, then let's use their numbers without context to prop up Magic.

[QUOTE=Odinn]I do not care about regular season games. But let's ignore the fact that the Celtics were basically benchless in 1987 Finals and Bird was recovering from an injury, then let's use their numbers without context to prop up Magic.[/QUOTE]

No agenda here...

Yep...and how about Bird in the 87-88 regular season?

Probably his PEAK.

29.9 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 6.1 apg, .527 FG%, .916 FT%.

Now I haven't read anything about Bird injuries in that post-season, but he was simply pathetic. In the Piston series he put up these numbers:

19.8 ppg, 12.2 rpg, 6.2 apg, on...get this... a .351 FG%.


Now, how about Magic in the Finals against that SAME Piston team?

21.1 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 13.0 apg, and on a ... .550 FG%.



BTW, I get so sick-and-tired of those that somehow compare Bird's scoring to Magic's. Magic was clearly capable of scoring much more in his career. AND, take a look above...guess who had the two highest scoring H2H games?

Magic was clearly a better post-season performer, as well.


Magic has a legitimate Top-5 case, and with Lebron now entrenched in the Top-10, Bird is barely hanging on at the bottom of it ...


BTW, and speaking of agenda's...how about the OP's take on those H2H games. He just gushes about Bird's performances, and emphasizes Kareem's...but I guess the he completely forgot about the best player in those career H2H's...

jlauber, no-one gives a f... about what you say. We all know memorized your agenda;
- Larry Bird, which has a case for having top 5 peak ever, isn't greater than Magic Johnson.
- Magic Johnson helped a lot Kareem to boost his legacy. So Kareem isn't that great.
- Then we reach the final step; Wilt is better than Kareem beucase Kareem's legacy is built on Magic.

There is no post of you that isn't related to Wilt agenda. Just stfu already.

magic > bird

[QUOTE=Odinn]jlauber, no-one gives a f... about what you say. We all know memorized your agenda;
- Larry Bird, which has a case for having top 5 peak ever, isn't greater than Magic Johnson.
- Magic Johnson helped a lot Kareem to boost his legacy. So Kareem isn't that great.
- Then we reach the final step; Wilt is better than Kareem beucase Kareem's legacy is built on Magic.

There is no post of you that isn't related to Wilt agenda. Just stfu already.[/QUOTE]
You can't ask for context in one scenario and then in the next say it doesn't apply.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]No agenda here...

Yep...and how about Bird in the 87-88 regular season?

Probably his PEAK.

29.9 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 6.1 apg, .527 FG%, .916 FT%.

Now I haven't read anything about Bird injuries in that post-season, but he was simply pathetic. In the Piston series he put up these numbers:

19.8 ppg, 12.2 rpg, 6.2 apg, on...get this... a .351 FG%.


Now, how about Magic in the Finals against that SAME Piston team?

21.1 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 13.0 apg, and on a ... .550 FG%.



BTW, I get so sick-and-tired of those that somehow compare Bird's scoring to Magic's. Magic was clearly capable of scoring much more in his career. AND, take a look above...guess who had the two highest scoring H2H games?

Magic was clearly a better post-season performer, as well.


Magic has a legitimate Top-5 case, and with Lebron now entrenched in the Top-10, Bird is barely hanging on at the bottom of it ...


BTW, and speaking of agenda's...how about the OP's take on those H2H games. He just gushes about Bird's performances, and emphasizes Kareem's...but I guess the he completely forgot about the best player in those career H2H's...[/QUOTE]

Magic played amazing in the 87-88 season and deserved the Finals MVP over Worthy as well (just as Kareem > Magic in 1980). However Bird was at least as good that entire season.

From 79-80 until 85-86 nobody ever would say that Magic is better than Bird. Larry finished higher in MVP voting every single year and was the clear-cut best player on his team unlike Magic.

Don't get me wrong Magic is my favorite all-time player (along with Lebron) but this Bird hate is ridiculous. Everyone has poor series. Look at Magic in '81 playoffs or '83 Finals or '84 Finals when he became Tragic Magic.

And no I wasn't emphasizing Kareem's performances (I wrote it on the bottom with the recaps...) but when I post about the '84 and '85 Finals it seems fair to mention his enormous contributions. I mean he destroyed the Celtics in so many of those games and was the best player on the floor for many of them. I also mentioned when Bird's Celtic teammates played well.

Kareem was beastin' in 84 and 85 still. In 84, I thought he and Bird were the best players on the floor. Bird constantly attacked was great at fighting for the boards, and it saved them a few times. And he hit a game winner over Magic too, so that must'a felt good for him. Bird carried that team to victory in some of those games.

Magic shot selection was damn near perfect, and took what the defense gave him. James Worthy was a beast in 84 too. They were the better team in 84, but mental errors cost them the series.

85, I thought the Celtics were better. At least they were better than they were in 84, but Bird wasn't as good as he was in 84 (in the Finals). He injured his hand, but still. Kareem was a beast in that series like I said before. Mchale was a beast that series too.

[B]Mchale: 26.0 ppg, 10.7 rpg, 1.3 apg, 1.8 blks, on 59.8% on 64.4% TS. [/B]Mchale was unstoppable.

One thing that ppl don't mention is the defense that Michael Cooper played on Bird. Worthy played solid D as well. You have to give it to Cooper tho. He had to quickness to keep up when Bird used to use screens to get free. I thought Bird would post him up more, but he tend to have trouble finishing.

[quote] Now I haven't read anything about Bird injuries in that post-season, but he was simply pathetic. In the Piston series he put up these numbers:

19.8 ppg, 12.2 rpg, 6.2 apg, on...get this... a .351 FG%. [/quote]

I don't know. I read an article saying that the near end of the season Bird looked a tad slower and took rushed and forced shots. He didn't look like the regular Bird that ppl were used to seeing. The article or whatever mentioned that maybe he got injured then, but he still played good against the Hawks and Knicks, so maybe he just abnormally sucked big time against them that year.

They never guarded each other. Not really a true "head to head". Just their stats when their teams were facing the other players team.

[QUOTE=dankok8]Magic played amazing in the 87-88 season and deserved the Finals MVP over Worthy as well (just as Kareem > Magic in 1980). However Bird was at least as good that entire season.

From 79-80 until 85-86 nobody ever would say that Magic is better than Bird. Larry finished higher in MVP voting every single year and was the clear-cut best player on his team unlike Magic.

Don't get me wrong Magic is my favorite all-time player (along with Lebron) but this Bird hate is ridiculous. Everyone has poor series. Look at Magic in '81 playoffs or '83 Finals or '84 Finals when he became Tragic Magic.

[B]And no I wasn't emphasizing Kareem's performances (I wrote it on the bottom with the recaps...) but when I post about the '84 and '85 Finals it seems fair to mention his enormous contributions. I mean he destroyed the Celtics in so many of those games and was the best player on the floor for many of them. I also mentioned when Bird's Celtic teammates played well.[/B][/QUOTE]

Your only mention about Bird's teammates was one about DJ, and even this came after you edited your initial post...Just because I didn't spend time to comment doesn't mean I didn't see it.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]They never guarded each other. Not really a true "head to head". Just their stats when their teams were facing the other players team.[/QUOTE]

True but people still consider it a big rivalry because they came into the league and faced each other several times in the Finals on the head of the two biggest dynasties.


[QUOTE=Psileas]Your only mention about Bird's teammates was one about DJ, and even this came after you edited your initial post...Just because I didn't spend time to comment doesn't mean I didn't see it.[/QUOTE]

I also mentioned each starter scoring over 20+ points in another game and McHale in Game 3 and 6 of the '85 Finals. I only mentioned the noteworthy performances in the recap.

If it bothers you that much I'll remove the recaps. Sheesh people think I'm biased or some shit because I mentioned Kareem's great games in the finals. :lol And yes I edited the post to post additional stats I gathered.

[QUOTE=dankok8][U][B]79-80 Season[/B][/U]

12/28/1979

Magic: 23/8/6/0/4 (7/14, 9/10) W
Bird: 16/4/3 (7/15, 2/3)

Lakers win 123-105.

1/13/1980

Magic: 1/3/2/0/2 (0/2, 1/2) W
Bird: 14/12/1 (7/12, 0/0)

Lakers in 100-98. Kareem has 33/12 game.


[U][B]81-82 Season[/B][/U]

2/14/1982

Magic: 19/10/8 (6/11, 7/9)
Bird: 12/9/9 (4/11, 4/5) W

Celtics win 108-103.


[U][B]82-83 Season[/B][/U]

1/20/1983

Magic: 14/9/10 (5/10, 4/4)
Bird: 21/13/8 (9/22, 3/3) W

Celtics win 110-95.

2/23/1983

Magic: 20/13/10 (9/21, 2/3)
Bird: 32/17/9 (13/23, 4/6) W

Celtics win 113-104.


[B][U]83-84 Season[/U][/B]

2/8/1984

Magic: 20/8/10/?/6 (9/13, 2/2) W
Bird: 29/11/7 (12/19, 5/5)

Lakers win 111-109.

2/24/1984

Magic: 9/8/18/?/3 (4/11, 1/2) W
Bird: 14/11/5/2 (6/12, 2/2)

Lakers win 116-108. Kareem has 31/7/5 game.


[B][U]'84 Playoffs[/U][/B]

Game 1

Magic: 18/6/10/0/4 (7/11, 4/4) W
Bird: 24/14/5 (7/17, 9/11)

Lakers win 115-109. Kareem has 32/8/5 game on 71% shooting in a dominant effort.

Game 2

Magic: 27/10/9/1/0 (10/14, 7/7)
Bird: 27/13/3/2 (8/22, 11/15) W

Celtics win 124-121 in OT. Johnson stupidly burns a timeout and then lets the clock run out at the end of regulation. In OT Celtics use the chance they get to win the game.

Game 3

Magic: 14/11/21/1/1 (4/6, 6/10) W
Bird: 30/7/2/1 (9/16, 12/15)

Lakers win in a huge blowout 137-104.

Game 4

Magic: 20/11/17/0/2 (8/12, 4/7)
Bird: 29/21/2/0 (9/24, 10/10) W

Celtics win 129-125 in OT. Magic and Worthy each miss 2 free throws in the last seconds of regulation. Kareem has a dominant 32/8/6 game with 2 blocks and 4 steals. Lakers choke yet again.

Game 5

Magic: 10/5/13/2/2 (3/9, 4/6)
Bird: 34/17/2/1 (15/20, 2/4) W

In the infamous Heat game in the Boston Garden the Celtics obliterate the Lakers 121-103. Kareem and Worthy visibly struggled to breathe during the game. Bird dominated in the hellish conditions.

Game 6

Magic: 21/6/10/0/1 (10/18, 1/2) W
Bird: 28/14/8/3 (8/11, 12/13)

Lakers force a deciding Game 7 at the Garden winning 119-108. Kareem had another dominant performance with 30/10/5.

Game 7

Magic: 16/5/15/2/4 (5/14, 6/7)
Bird: 20/12/3/1 (6/18, 8/8) W

Celtics in 111-102 to win a championship. Bird wins Finals MVP. Kareem had 29/6/4 in the clincher.

[B]Series Stats

Magic: 18.0 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 13.6 apg, 0.9 bpg, 2.0 spg on 56.0 %FG/61.2 %TS and 4.6 topg
Bird: 27.4 ppg, 14.0 rpg, 3.6 apg, 1.1 bpg, 2.1 spg on 48.4 %FG/59.5 %TS and 3.6 topg[/B]


[B][U]84-85 Season[/U][/B]

1/16/1985

Magic: 8/7/13/0/2 (4/11, 0/0)
Bird: 19/11/7/0/1 (9/16, 1/1) W

Celtics win 104-102. Kareem has 33/7/4 game.

2/17/1985

Magic: 37/3/13/0/2 (10/16, 17/19) W
Bird: 33/15/3/0/3 (14/22, 4/5)

Lakers win 117-111.


[B][U]'85 Playoffs[/U][/B]

Game 1

Magic: 19/1/12/0/3 (8/14, 3/4)
Bird: 19/6/9/0/3 (8/14, 2/2) W

Celtics win 148-114 in what becomes known as the Memorial Day Massacre. Kareem scores 12 points in 22 minutes and is never factor in this one.

Game 2

Magic: 14/4/13/0/3 (6/9, 2/4) W
Bird: 30/12/3/2/2 (9/21, 1/1)

Lakers win 109-102. Kareem has a monster 30/17/8 game with 3 blocks.

Game 3

Magic: 17/9/16/0/2 (6/13, 4/4) W
Bird: 20/7/3/0/1 (8/21, 4/5)

Lakers win 136-111 in a big blowout. Kareem puts up 26/14/7 on 10/13 shooting. McHale has 31/10 on 10/13 shooting as well.

Game 4

Magic: 20/11/12/0/2 (5/12, 10/11)
Bird: 26/11/5/1/3 (8/16, 10/12) W

Celtics win 107-105.

Game 5

Magic: 26/6/17/0/2 (11/20, 4/4) W
Bird: 20/7/7/1/1 (8/17, 3/5)

Lakers win 120-111. Kareem dominates with 36/7/7 with 3 blocks.

Game 6

Magic: 14/10/14/0/1 (5/15, 4/4) W
Bird: 28/10/3/0/1 (12/29, 4/5)

Lakers clinch the title with a 111-100 win. Kareem has 29/7/4 game once again on blistering efficiency. KAJ wins Finals MVP averaging 25.7/9.0/5.2 on 60.4% shooting for the series. McHale has 32/16 in a loss.

[B]Series Stats

Magic: 18.3 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 14.0 apg, 0.0 bpg, 2.2 spg on 49.4 %FG/56.9 %TS and 3.3 topg
Bird: 23.8 ppg, 8.8 rpg, 5.0 apg, 0.7 bpg, 1.8 spg on 44.9 %FG/52.7 %TS and 2.2 topg[/B]


[B][U]85-86 Season[/U][/B]

1/22/1986

Magic: 15/1/6/0/3 (6/10, 3/3)
Bird: 21/12/7/0/3 (8/16, 4/4) W

Celtics win 110-95.

2/16/1986

Magic: 6/6/12/0/2 (0/4, 6/6)
Bird: 22/18/7/0/0 (7/17, 8/12) W

Celtics win 105-99.


[B][U]86-87 Season[/U][/B]

12/12/1986

Magic: 31/7/8/1/2 (13/25, 5/7) W
Bird: 26/3/6/1/0 (11/13, 3/3)

Lakers win 117-110.

2/15/1987

Magic: 39/7/10/0/2 (12/20, 14/15) W
Bird: 20/5/7/2/1 (7/12, 5/7)

Lakers in 106-103.


[B][U]'87 Playoffs[/U][/B]

Game 1

Magic: 29/8/13/1/2 (13/25, 3/3) W
Bird: 32/7/6/0/1 (14/25, 4/4)

Lakers win 126-113.

Game 2

Magic: 22/5/20/0/3 (10/17, 2/2) W
Bird: 23/10/4/1/1 (9/17, 4/5)

Lakers win in a blowout 141-122.

Game 3

Magic: 32/11/9/0/1 (12/18, 8/8)
Bird: 30/12/4/1/0 (10/24, 10/11) W

Celtics win 109-103.

Game 4

Magic: 29/8/5/0/1 (12/20, 5/6) W
Bird: 21/10/7/2/1 (7/19, 5/5)

Lakers in 107-106. Magic hits the infamous baby hook over Kevin McHale to give the Lakers a 3-1 series lead.

Game 5

Magic: 29/8/12/0/4 (12/21, 4/4)
Bird: 23/12/7/1/2 (7/18, 8/9) W

Celtics win 123-108 to stave off elimination. Boston gets 20+ point outings from all five of their starters.

Game 6

Magic: 16/8/19/1/3 (7/21, 2/2) W
Bird: 16/9/5/2/2 (6/16, 4/4)

Lakers clinch the title with a 106-93 win. 40-year old Kareem has a 32-point game and makes couple of key baskets late including a pair of free throws with 30 seconds left to close it out. DJ has a huge 3/10/5 game for Boston in a losing effort.

[B]Series Stats

Magic: 26.2 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 13.0 apg, 0.3 bpg, 2.3 spg on 54.1 %FG/59.0 %TS and 2.2 topg
Bird: 24.2 ppg, 10.0 rpg, 5.5 apg, 1.2 bpg, 1.2 spg on 44.5 %FG/53.4 %TS and 3.0 topg[/B]


[B][U]87-88 Season[/U][/B]

12/11/1987

Magic: 18/8/17/0/2 (6/11, 5/6) W
Bird: 35/9/8/2/5 (14/26, 6/8)

Lakers win 115-114.

2/14/1988

Magic: 22/5/14/0/3 (9/19, 4/7) W
Bird: 25/17/4/1/0 (8/22, 9/11)

Lakers win 115-106.


[B][U]89-90 Season[/U][/B]

12/15/1989

Magic: 16/6/21/0/6 (4/12, 8/8) W
Bird: 21/12/2/0/3 (9/27, 2/2)

Lakers win 119-110.

2/18/1990

Magic: 30/4/13/0/1 (10/21, 7/7) W
Bird: 20/7/7/0/1 (9/17, 2/2)

Lakers in 116-110.


[B][U]90-91 Season[/U][/B]

2/15/1991

Magic: 21/9/16/1/1 (7/13, 6/8)
Bird: 11/11/11/0/2 (4/16, 2/2) W

Celtics win 98-85.



[B]Cumulative Regular Season Stats[/B]

Magic: 19.4 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 11.4 apg on 49.6 %FG/59.0 %TS
Bird: 21.7 ppg, 10.9 rpg, 6.2 apg on 49.7 %FG/55.3 %TS

Lakers went 11-7 against the Celtics.

[B]Cumulative Playoff Stats[/B]

Magic: 20.7 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 13.4 apg, 0.4 bpg, 2.2 spg on 53.3 %FG/59.0 %TS and 3.4 topg
Bird: 25.3 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.1 bpg, 1.5 spg on 46.0 %FG/55.5 %TS and 2.6 topg

Lakers went 2-1 in finals series and 11-8 in games against the Celtics.[/QUOTE]

Here is their post-season scorecard folks...

'80...Magic by a mile

'81...Bird, even with a horrid Finals (Magic had missed half the season due to injury BTW)

'82...Magic...by a mile

'83...Magic

'84...This is interesting..."Tragic's" statline was probably at least the equal of Bird's, but since Bird was handed that ring...I'll go Bird, but just barely

'85...Easily Magic

'86.. Bird. The only post-season in which he was clearly better

'87...Magic and by several miles

'88... Magic by a continent

'89...Magic (well, you get the picture)

'90...Magic (again, just a lopsided margin)

'91...Magic (not even close.)


Hmmm... Bird "wins" in '81, '84, and '86
Magic "wins" in '80, '82, '83, '85, '87, '88, '89, '90, '91

[QUOTE=dankok8]
I also mentioned each starter scoring over 20+ points in another game and McHale in Game 3 and 6 of the '85 Finals. I only mentioned the noteworthy performances in the recap.

If it bothers you that much I'll remove the recaps. Sheesh people think I'm biased or some shit because I mentioned Kareem's great games in the finals. :lol And yes I edited the post to post additional stats I gathered.[/QUOTE]

In '85, when Bird was in his incredible peak of three years, in the finals who was the best player for the Celtics? McHale also had pretty much better series than Kareem who guarded him a lot in that series. McHale guarded Bird's man too. Not only did he outscore Bird by 2ppg but he outshot him 598% to 449% and outrebounded him by 2 as well.

Also you don't mention how Magic took the legs of DJ, one of the most clutch players in the 80's and Danny Ainge. They shot 20% in that last game 6 for 31 because Magic ran them to death. Bird shot 40% in this game and this happened because Magic was the only player in the history of the game that could run on a made shot. It could qualify as one of the best defensive effects ever by a player. Magic legally took their legs from them.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]In '85, when Bird was in his incredible peak of three years, in the finals who was the best player for the Celtics? McHale also had pretty much better series than Kareem who guarded him a lot in that series. McHale guarded Bird's man too. Not only did he outscore Bird by 2ppg but he outshot him 598% to 449% and outrebounded him by 2 as well.

Also you don't mention how Magic took the legs of DJ, one of the most clutch players in the 80's and Danny Ainge. They shot 20% in that last game 6 for 31 because Magic ran them to death. Bird shot 40% in this game and this happened because Magic was the only player in the history of the game that could run on a made shot. It could qualify as one of the best defensive effects ever by a player. Magic legally took their legs from them.[/QUOTE]

This.

Magic engineered the Laker offense. No player was ever a more effective "coast-to-coast" player than Magic. Or forcing opposing teams to play at light-speed. And his brilliant passing basically forced opposing defenses to have to defend EVERY Laker player.

And while KAJ deserved the FMVP in '85, had their been a playoff MVP that season, Magic would surely have won it. Not only that, but Magic was clearly robbed of his 4th FMVP in '88.

His overall contributions went far beyond the scoring, rebounding, and assists...

He simply made everyone around him so much better. My god, KAJ's FG%'s went thru the roof after Magic arrived. Worthy put up some ungodly FG% post-seasons. Byron Scott became a 20 ppg scorer because of Magic. He took Michael Cooper, who couldn't shoot a lick before he entered the NBA, and made him an effective 3pt shooter. The reality was, Magic made player-after-player, much better.

[B]Good shit.

Pretty close, all in all, if Bird didn't have an injured hand and elbow in 1985, the Celtics would've probably repeated and even this thing out some more, Kareem was a monster though.
And adding to the injured hand/elbow, also has to be said that after 1988, Bird was just a shell of his former self, even if still really good.

Basically looking at stats they "confirm" the same, Bird was a better shooter, better and more willing scorer (had to score more), Magic could still score and was always efficient, Bird was a better rebounder still Magic was a really good rebounder, Magic's the GOAT passer and Bird's one of the greatest, there's always more to it than stats and it doesn't show the defense part obviously, Bird was easily a better defensive player. Also, Magic had better teammates around when you look at everything, at the whole picture, through the years/overall, that's clear.

Thanks for posting Kareem's numbers too. Shows how much impact he had, and how much he determined games. Still a beast even after 35. Magic was only clear-cut #1 after 1985 or 1986.

Of course, this ***** Lazeruss (with his alt's) always with the same type of bullshit, looks at stats, checks what's better and claims a certain year to be a player's peak when it's really not (bet you don't do that with Wilt).. Now Bird's peak was in 1988? :rolleyes: Dude had serious back and heels problems, just because he was still a beast and with better numbers because he had to carry the team, doesn't mean that that was his peak year. :facepalm
Of course this child will always hate on Bird (or Kareem) to prop up Magic (or Wilt), same agenda, same ignorant arguments.[/B]

[QUOTE=Odinn]jlauber, no-one gives a f... about what you say. We all know memorized your agenda;
- Larry Bird, which has a case for having top 5 peak ever, isn't greater than Magic Johnson.
- Magic Johnson helped a lot Kareem to boost his legacy. So Kareem isn't that great.
- Then we reach the final step; Wilt is better than Kareem beucase Kareem's legacy is built on Magic.

There is no post of you that isn't related to Wilt agenda. Just stfu already.[/QUOTE]

:applause:

[QUOTE=dankok8]Magic played amazing in the 87-88 season and deserved the Finals MVP over Worthy as well (just as Kareem > Magic in 1980). However Bird was at least as good that entire season.

From 79-80 until 85-86 nobody ever would say that Magic is better than Bird. Larry finished higher in MVP voting every single year and was the clear-cut best player on his team unlike Magic.

Don't get me wrong Magic is my favorite all-time player (along with Lebron) but this Bird hate is ridiculous. Everyone has poor series. Look at Magic in '81 playoffs or '83 Finals or '84 Finals when he became Tragic Magic.

And no I wasn't emphasizing Kareem's performances (I wrote it on the bottom with the recaps...) but when I post about the '84 and '85 Finals it seems fair to mention his enormous contributions. I mean he destroyed the Celtics in so many of those games and was the best player on the floor for many of them. I also mentioned when Bird's Celtic teammates played well.[/QUOTE]

[B]Don't mind lazeruss and his alt's. With Wilt or Magic he will talk about broke fingernails, Bird had a severely injured hand and elbow during the 1985 playoffs and he never talks about it (like talking about Larry's 1983 post-season never even realizing he was injured and didn't even play one game).
:lol at him talking about Bird's 1988 series against the Pistons (claiming that that year was his peak too :oldlol:) without even mentioning that Bird had to get back surgery and surgery on both heels after that post-season. Let's just forget that or the fact that he was carrying all the load since 1987, playing in some really physical and intense series, getting beat up and getting most attention, having to be the best scorer, the best rebounder, the best passer, the team defender, playing major minutes while the Celtics had plenty of injuries to go around, old players and virtually no bench. While Magic had one of the most stacked up teams, one of the GOAT teams, could afford to play less than 37 mpg in the regular season, easily fewer minutes in the playoffs than Bird, considering their level Lakers were like coasting to the Finals in the Western Conference (EAst was much tougher). Where was Magic when Bird was healthy with a stacked team, in 1986? Shit, Magic had easily a better cast around in 1984 (not even clear-cut #1), all playing better in the playoffs, Bird was carrying the team with most underperforming, as the alpha, and they won vs the Lakers.

Shit, let's also "blame" Magic for not playing in 1991-92 and say Bird was above in that season lol. Gets that ridiculous with these people.

Bird had a better peak/prime than Magic as an overall player and while they were both healthy, Bird was, and was considered, the best player for the most part, easily. That's the bottom line.
[/B]

[QUOTE] also mentioned each starter scoring over 20+ points in another game and McHale in Game 3 and 6 of the '85 Finals. I only mentioned the noteworthy performances in the recap. [/QUOTE]

Your initial post only mentioned Kareem. Zero mentions about McHale or any Celtic apart from Bird. Yeah, pretty sure we have an objective Magic fan here...

[QUOTE=jlip]Bird's peak was just epic. Also it seems as if that was the consensus until '87. Until then, Kareem was yet viewed as the leader of the Lakers. By '87, Bird had been "the man" or viewed as the leader of the Celtics for several years. It's also worth noting that so often when players are comparable, the edge in many people's minds is going to lean towards the one who scores more points.[/QUOTE]


[QUOTE=Pointguard]NAaa, not true. Definitely not true when one was winning more and influenced the playoffs more. Lebron/Durant.

Bird is definitely top 3 if you go mind/skillset/toughness. With two more healthy complete years I think he has to be in every bodies top five. That kind of Hirt him as a lot of guys have three great years.

A lot of people here were saying Kareem had a 12 year prime. The Magic years, were very distinct, from the other 9 years when Kareem had the energy to do the things he needed to. Coincidence?[/QUOTE]

If I'm understanding you correctly, are you saying that according to public opinion at the time, Bird was not considered better than Magic pre-'87? If so I have to disagree. I personally consider Magic greater overall, but I'm almost certain that before '87 the consensus was Bird.

As it pertains to winning, prior to '87 they both had the same number of rings and Bird had more MVPs. They were 1-1 in the Finals against each other. Also, Magic was not perceived by the masses as his team's leader before '87. Bird was. I even remember Magic saying in an interview that before Rilley asked him to take a larger scoring role in Kareem's absence in '87, many people considered him basically a "game manager" who didn't have to ability to take over a game with his scoring. Again, Magic may have already truly been the leader, but that wasn't the consensus. The '87 season and beyond are what swung the pendulum in Magic's favor in regards to the public perception of who was greater.

[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT][B]Good shit.

Pretty close, all in all, if Bird didn't have an injured hand and elbow in 1985, the Celtics would've probably repeated and even this thing out some more, Kareem was a monster though.
And adding to the injured hand/elbow, also has to be said that after 1988, Bird was just a shell of his former self, even if still really good.

Basically looking at stats they "confirm" the same, Bird was a better shooter, better and more willing scorer (had to score more), Magic could still score and was always efficient, Bird was a better rebounder still Magic was a really good rebounder, Magic's the GOAT passer and Bird's one of the greatest, there's always more to it than stats and it doesn't show the defense part obviously, Bird was easily a better defensive player. Also, Magic had better teammates around when you look at everything, at the whole picture, through the years/overall, that's clear.

Thanks for posting Kareem's numbers too. Shows how much impact he had, and how much he determined games. Still a beast even after 35. Magic was only clear-cut #1 after 1985 or 1986.

Of course, this ***** Lazeruss (with his alt's) always with the same type of bullshit, looks at stats, checks what's better and claims a certain year to be a player's peak when it's really not (bet you don't do that with Wilt).. Now Bird's peak was in 1988? :rolleyes: Dude had serious back and heels problems, just because he was still a beast and with better numbers because he had to carry the team, doesn't mean that that was his peak year. :facepalm
Of course this child will always hate on Bird (or Kareem) to prop up Magic (or Wilt), same agenda, same ignorant arguments.[/B]



:applause:



[B]Don't mind lazeruss and his alt's. With Wilt or Magic he will talk about broke fingernails, Bird had a severely injured hand and elbow during the 1985 playoffs and he never talks about it (like talking about Larry's 1983 post-season never even realizing he was injured and didn't even play one game).
:lol at him talking about Bird's 1988 series against the Pistons (claiming that that year was his peak too :oldlol:) without even mentioning that Bird had to get back surgery and surgery on both heels after that post-season. Let's just forget that or the fact that he was carrying all the load since 1987, playing in some really physical and intense series, getting beat up and getting most attention, having to be the best scorer, the best rebounder, the best passer, the team defender, playing major minutes while the Celtics had plenty of injuries to go around, old players and virtually no bench. While Magic had one of the most stacked up teams, one of the GOAT teams, could afford to play less than 37 mpg in the regular season, easily fewer minutes in the playoffs than Bird, considering their level Lakers were like coasting to the Finals in the Western Conference (EAst was much tougher). Where was Magic when Bird was healthy with a stacked team, in 1986? Shit, Magic had easily a better cast around in 1984 (not even clear-cut #1), all playing better in the playoffs, Bird was carrying the team with most underperforming, as the alpha, and they won vs the Lakers.

Shit, let's also "blame" Magic for not playing in 1991-92 and say Bird was above in that season lol. Gets that ridiculous with these people.

Bird had a better peak/prime than Magic as an overall player and while they were both healthy, Bird was, and was considered, the best player for the most part, easily. That's the bottom line.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Yep...your Bird was just brilliant in all of his post-seasons wasn't he?

Again, thanks to Colts18...

[QUOTE]Just look at Bird's long list of playoff failures while Dirk improves his play in the postseason:

1980- Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason. In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had a 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .532 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .607 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoff of his career. Celtics win the title over the Lakers.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average. His Finals TS% is just .527. Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .615 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.375) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .377 shooting and .492 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

1990- Bird shoots .539 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .490 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .446 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular season average. He has a .514 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.


So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .540 TS%, 5 under .520 TS%, and 3 under .500 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span. From 88-92, he had a 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird you get a nice 4 year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that you get a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically out of Bird's 13 year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career. [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=jlip]If I'm understanding you correctly, are you saying that according to public opinion at the time, Bird was not considered better than Magic pre-'87? If so I have to disagree. I personally consider Magic greater overall, but I'm almost certain that before '87 the consensus was Bird.

As it pertains to winning, prior to '87 they both had the same number of rings and Bird had more MVPs. They were 1-1 in the Finals against each other. Also, Magic was not perceived by the masses as his team's leader before '87. Bird was. I even remember Magic saying in an interview that before Rilley asked him to take a larger scoring role in Kareem's absence in '87, many people considered him basically a "game manager" who didn't have to ability to take over a game with his scoring. Again, Magic may have already truly been the leader, but that wasn't the consensus. The '87 season and beyond are what swung the pendulum in Magic's favor in regards to the public perception of who was greater.[/QUOTE]

Bird was considered the greater player from '84 thru '86.

Magic was hurt in the MVP voting by two things. One, Kareem was taking votes from him, and two, his 80-81 regular season.

But, if you include post-season play, Magic was easily the better the player from '80 thru '83.

And then in the '85 Finals, Bird was the only the FIFTH best player on the floor in that series, and wasn't even the best player on his own team.

The reality was, Magic was a considerably better post-season player, outplayed Bird in their post-season series, and overall, had a greater career. Plain-and-simple.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Here is their post-season scorecard folks...

'80...Magic by a mile

'81...Bird, even with a horrid Finals (Magic had missed half the season due to injury BTW)

'82...Magic...by a mile

'83...Magic

'84...This is interesting..."Tragic's" statline was probably at least the equal of Bird's, but since Bird was handed that ring...I'll go Bird, but just barely

'85...Easily Magic

'86.. Bird. The only post-season in which he was clearly better

'87...Magic and by several miles

'88... Magic by a continent

'89...Magic (well, you get the picture)

'90...Magic (again, just a lopsided margin)

'91...Magic (not even close.)


Hmmm... Bird "wins" in '81, '84, and '86
Magic "wins" in '80, '82, '83, '85, '87, '88, '89, '90, '91[/QUOTE]
Is wilt Magic's mother?

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Yep...your Bird was just brilliant in all of his post-seasons wasn't he?

Again, thanks to Colts18...[/QUOTE]

[B]:roll:
You really think anyone read(s) that quote and took/takes it seriously or gave/gives it any though with the amount of hate and ignorance in it? :oldlol: Get a grip child. You couldn't get any decent response to my post (because just mostly facts and the clear truth) so you just go on posting that useless crap again.

Furthermore, I rebuked/exposed that shitty quote so many times and everyone knows it, shit ain't even funny anymore, yet you keep quoting that ignorant post from an ignorant someone again and again, you must be mentally ill or something and it further adds on with the long-ass (dumb) essays just to prop-up "your" Wilt Chamberlain :lol (go mention Wilt's broken fingernail or something while neglecting injuries for Bird or Kareem, also)

Stop it please. Your agenda is clear to anyone by now why do you keep trying? It's stupid and leads nowhere.

This post was brilliant, I quote it again:

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by Odinn
jlauber, no-one gives a f... about what you say. We all know memorized your agenda;
- Larry Bird, which has a case for having top 5 peak ever, isn't greater than Magic Johnson.
- Magic Johnson helped a lot Kareem to boost his legacy. So Kareem isn't that great.
- Then we reach the final step; Wilt is better than Kareem beucase Kareem's legacy is built on Magic.

There is no post of you that isn't related to Wilt agenda. Just stfu already.[/QUOTE]

By now you're just mad because you know the majority of people, or at least knowledgeable basketball fans:
-pretty much always put Kareem in their top3 and Wilt plenty of times not even top5
-know that Bird had a better prime/peak than Magic and was (considered too) mostly above when they were both healthy; also that Magic had better teammates around, overall/on average, for the most part throughout their careers when you look at the whole picture, and Bird was always the clear-cut #1 in his team as opposed for Magic

Also the fact that Bird and Kareem won more than Wilt and are above on most lists.
In fact, Kareem, Bird and Magic most of the time are ranked above Wilt, by people who know their shit too.

Just accept it and live your life. Just sad right now.
I'm a big fan of Wilt, he had a top5 peak (Bird and Kareem too) and a great career, would be great in any era, also love Magic... But your agenda is dumb/ignorant, already known and it gets sad.[/B]

[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT][B]:roll:
You really think anyone read(s) that quote and took/takes it seriously or gave/gives it any though with the amount of hate and ignorance in it? :oldlol: Get a grip child. You couldn't get any decent response to my post (because just mostly facts and the clear truth) so you just go on posting that useless crap again.

Furthermore, I rebuked/exposed that shitty quote so many times and everyone knows it, shit ain't even funny anymore, yet you keep quoting that ignorant post from an ignorant someone again and again, you must be mentally ill or something and it further adds on with the long-ass (dumb) essays just to prop-up "your" Wilt Chamberlain :lol (go mention Wilt's broken fingernail or something while neglecting injuries for Bird or Kareem, also)

Stop it please. Your agenda is clear to anyone by now why do you keep trying? It's stupid and leads nowhere.

This post was brilliant, I quote it again:



By now you're just mad because you know the majority of people, or at least knowledgeable basketball fans:
-pretty much always put Kareem in their top3 and Wilt plenty of times not even top5
-know that Bird had a better prime/peak than Magic and was (considered too) mostly above when they were both healthy; also that Magic had better teammates around, overall/on average, for the most part throughout their careers when you look at the whole picture, and Bird was always the clear-cut #1 in his team as opposed for Magic

Also the fact that Bird and Kareem won more than Wilt and are above on most lists.
In fact, Kareem, Bird and Magic most of the time are ranked above Wilt, by people who know their shit too.

Just accept it and live your life. Just sad right now.
I'm a big fan of Wilt, he had a top5 peak (Bird and Kareem too) and a great career, would be great in any era, also love Magic... But your agenda is dumb/ignorant, already known and it gets sad.[/B][/QUOTE]

You have NEVER rebuked anything I have posted.

Once again, the REALITY is, Bird is now a borderline Top-10 player, has no case over MJ, Russell, MAGIC, WILT, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, and now Lebron, and is fighting for his Top-10 life with Kobe, Hakeem, and Moses.

As for Chamberlain, simply the most dominant player of all-time. Kareem played FOUR years in the WILT-era, and never sniffed his records, nor the absolute domination that a prime Chamberlain just crushed many of the same centers that a prime KAJ would face later on (and most all of them were on the decline when a peak KAJ was playing against them.)

A prime Chamberlain was a better scorer (even in the POST-SEASON), a considerably better rebounder (hell, and OLD Wilt was a better rebounder), at his peak, a more efficient shooter from the field, a much better passer, and much better defender (again, an OLD Wilt was outvoting a PEAK Kareemi on the All-Defensive teams), and MUCH better shot-blocker (Wilt in his LAST season, blocked 5.4 shots per game...Kareem in the very next season was at 3.5, and his career high was 4.1.)

Again, take MAGIC out of Kareem's career, and he would have been a considered a major under-achiever.

As for Magic and Bird. Not even close. The evidence is there...Bird was a HUGE Choker in the post-season. And H2H against Magic, he was just waxed. While Bird, with stacked rosters, went to five Finals, and won three (and arguably, he had no business winning in '84), and only two FMVPs (and was not even the best player on his own team in two of those five Finals)... MAGIC carried his Laker teams (even without KAJ) to NINE Finals in his 12 full seasons, won FIVE rings, won THREE FMVP's (and clearly was robbed of a 4th in '88), and was LA's best player in the vast majority of his post-seasons, and especially in his Finals.

[QUOTE=jlip]If I'm understanding you correctly, are you saying that according to public opinion at the time, Bird was not considered better than Magic pre-'87? If so I have to disagree. I personally consider Magic greater overall, but I'm almost certain that before '87 the consensus was Bird.

As it pertains to winning, prior to '87 they both had the same number of rings and Bird had more MVPs. They were 1-1 in the Finals against each other. Also, Magic was not perceived by the masses as his team's leader before '87. Bird was. I even remember Magic saying in an interview that before Rilley asked him to take a larger scoring role in Kareem's absence in '87, many people considered him basically a "game manager" who didn't have to ability to take over a game with his scoring. Again, Magic may have already truly been the leader, but that wasn't the consensus. The '87 season and beyond are what swung the pendulum in Magic's favor in regards to the public perception of who was greater.[/QUOTE]

Bird before '84 was not consistent at all in the playoffs. Had one subpar series for almost every good series and when they won it all, nondescript Cedric Maxwell won FMVP. In '84 he has a great complete year which is what people were waiting for. But in '85 he isn't the best player on the team in the finals AGAIN despite a great year otherwise and the Celtics lose. But in '86 he has another great complete year. So the wave went back to Bird as the '87 season began. Magic reclaimed the wave for good in '87 when he produces the best film work of a player making other players better in the history of the game.

Before Magic and Bird the center position was the prime position. Now these two thinking, creative, make players around them better, superskilled players, turned the league over to perimeter players. This transition happened on Kareem's watch, probably years before when Barry could win it all without a solid player in sight and Kareem couldn't pull off the same. The game was decentralized because Kareem in his peak and prime showed that you can't dominate consistently from that position.

Kareem in his 8 year prime and peak was never as important as he was post prime with Magic and its not even close. Anybody can see a very simple narrative with Kareem as it relates to Magic. He becomes a winner after Magic's appearance. This is not questionable, nor does it have another narrative that makes sense. Magic could win with Kareem somewhat in the way - as Kareem ate up a ton a clock in his later years.

Magic's ability to make others around him much better and relevant was evident from day one. His versatility and all around offensive game was evident from day one along with his smarts, creativity, control, management, ability to fill MANY holes (like out rebounding his center) were all evident from day one.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Bird before '84 was not consistent at all in the playoffs. Had one subpar series for almost every good series and when they won it all, nondescript Cedric Maxwell won FMVP. In '84 he has a great complete year which is what people were waiting for. But in '85 he isn't the best player on the team in the finals AGAIN despite a great year otherwise and the Celtics lose. But in '86 he has another great complete year. So the wave went back to Bird as the '87 season began. Magic reclaimed the wave for good in '87 when he produces the best film work of a player making other players better in the history of the game.

Before Magic and Bird the center position was the prime position. Now these two thinking, creative, make players around them better, superskilled players, turned the league over to perimeter players. This transition happened on Kareem's watch, probably years before when Barry could win it all without a solid player in sight and Kareem couldn't pull off the same. The game was decentralized because Kareem in his peak and prime showed that you can't dominate consistently from that position.

Kareem in his 8 year prime and peak was never as important as he was post prime with Magic and its not even close. Anybody can see a very simple narrative with Kareem as it relates to Magic. He becomes a winner after Magic's appearance. This is not questionable, nor does it have another narrative that makes sense. Magic could win with Kareem somewhat in the way - as Kareem ate up a ton a clock in his later years.

Magic's ability to make others around him much better and relevant was evident from day one. His versatility and all around offensive game was evident from day one along with his smarts, creativity, control, management, ability to fill MANY holes (like out rebounding his center) were all evident from day one.[/QUOTE]

:bowdown:

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Interesting that a near prime Kareem couldn't carry loaded rosters past team's with far less talent in the late 70's, and in as weak an era for champions as you will find (50-32 and 44-38 teams winning the title), but MAGIC immediately transformed them into a 60 win title team, and would carry those Laker teams to NINE Finals, and FIVE Rings, in his 12 years. And even after Kareem retired, Magic was still taking them to 63-19 and 58-24 records. And yet, after Magic retired, the Lakers fell flat on their face.

Hmmm...

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Here is their post-season scorecard folks...

'80...Magic by a mile

'81...Bird, even with a horrid Finals (Magic had missed half the season due to injury BTW)

'82...Magic...by a mile

'83...Magic

'84...This is interesting..."Tragic's" statline was probably at least the equal of Bird's, but since Bird was handed that ring...I'll go Bird, but just barely

'85...Easily Magic

'86.. Bird. The only post-season in which he was clearly better

'87...Magic and by several miles

'88... Magic by a continent

'89...Magic (well, you get the picture)

'90...Magic (again, just a lopsided margin)

'91...Magic (not even close.)


Hmmm... Bird "wins" in '81, '84, and '86
Magic "wins" in '80, '82, '83, '85, '87, '88, '89, '90, '91[/QUOTE]

Your scorecard reeks of bias.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Bird before '84 was not consistent at all in the playoffs. Had one subpar series for almost every good series and when they won it all, nondescript Cedric Maxwell won FMVP. In '84 he has a great complete year which is what people were waiting for. But in '85 he isn't the best player on the team in the finals AGAIN despite a great year otherwise and the Celtics lose. But in '86 he has another great complete year. So the wave went back to Bird as the '87 season began. Magic reclaimed the wave for good in '87 when he produces the best film work of a player making other players better in the history of the game.

Before Magic and Bird the center position was the prime position. Now these two thinking, creative, make players around them better, superskilled players, turned the league over to perimeter players. This transition happened on Kareem's watch, probably years before when Barry could win it all without a solid player in sight and Kareem couldn't pull off the same. The game was decentralized because Kareem in his peak and prime showed that you can't dominate consistently from that position.

Kareem in his 8 year prime and peak was never as important as he was post prime with Magic and its not even close. Anybody can see a very simple narrative with Kareem as it relates to Magic. He becomes a winner after Magic's appearance. This is not questionable, nor does it have another narrative that makes sense. Magic could win with Kareem somewhat in the way - as Kareem ate up a ton a clock in his later years.

Magic's ability to make others around him much better and relevant was evident from day one. His versatility and all around offensive game was evident from day one along with his smarts, creativity, control, management, ability to fill MANY holes (like out rebounding his center) were all evident from day one.[/QUOTE]

We are saying two different things. My position is that the [B]public opinion[/B] before 1987 was that Bird was the better player. This was partly do to the fact that [B]he was viewed[/B] as the leader of his team while Magic was [B]not viewed as the leader by the masses[/B].

Now...Was Magic actually better than Bird before 1987? Maybe? Was he truly the leader of the Lakers before 1987? Maybe. But that was not the general consensus at the time.

Trust me. Magic is my favorite player of all time, and IMO has a case for GOAT, but I'm simply stating what the opinion of these two players was in the 80's.

[QUOTE=jlip]We are saying two different things. My position is that the [B]public opinion[/B] before 1987 was that Bird was the better player. This was partly do to the fact that [B]he was viewed[/B] as the leader of his team while Magic was [B]not viewed as the leader by the masses[/B].

Now...Was Magic actually better than Bird before 1987? Maybe? Was he truly the leader of the Lakers before 1987? Maybe. But that was not the general consensus at the time.

Trust me. Magic is my favorite player of all time, and IMO has a case for GOAT, but I'm simply stating what the opinion of these two players was in the 80's.[/QUOTE]
I don't get this who was the leader of the team thing. The team before Magic was totally different than the team once he arrived with Magic being the only new piece. Magic was given the franchise contract his second year and in consequence Kareem, who never really had great connect with teammates, threatened to leave the team. I don't see how he could be considered the leader of the team under those conditions.

If you watched the games it's obvious as day who the decision maker was and you could not name me anybody in the history of the league that had more control of the game than Magic did? Who are you saying was the leader of the team?

[QUOTE=Pointguard]In '85, when Bird was in his incredible peak of three years, in the finals who was the best player for the Celtics? McHale also had pretty much better series than Kareem who guarded him a lot in that series. McHale guarded Bird's man too. Not only did he outscore Bird by 2ppg but he outshot him 598% to 449% and outrebounded him by 2 as well.

Also you don't mention how Magic took the legs of DJ, one of the most clutch players in the 80's and Danny Ainge. They shot 20% in that last game 6 for 31 because Magic ran them to death. Bird shot 40% in this game and this happened because Magic was the only player in the history of the game that could run on a made shot. It could qualify as one of the best defensive effects ever by a player. Magic legally took their legs from them.[/QUOTE]

McHale better than Kareem in '85 Finals? Please show me one source that claims that. Look at their assist numbers and clutch scoring from recaps. Bottom line is in the 1980 run and also the 1985 Finals Kareem > Magic and he should have won both FMVP's. I mean there is no way around that.

Of course when Lakers could force their tempo Magic would thrive but until 86-87 he wasn't a great half-court player.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]He simply made everyone around him so much better. My god, KAJ's FG%'s went thru the roof after Magic arrived. Worthy put up some ungodly FG% post-seasons. Byron Scott became a 20 ppg scorer because of Magic. He took Michael Cooper, who couldn't shoot a lick before he entered the NBA, and made him an effective 3pt shooter. The reality was, Magic made player-after-player, much better.[/QUOTE]

Kareem shot higher % in the 80's because he played at a higher pace and because he took far fewer shots. Sure Magic helped him but also vice versa. Kareem would retire with 1 title without Magic but Magic might have retired with 0 without Kareem.

[QUOTE=Psileas][/QUOTE]

Magic, Lebron, and Hakeem are my favorite all-time players. But the Kareem and Bird hate on this thread is ridiculous.



As for Magic vs. Bird let's really break it down. And don't forget Bird was a MUCH BETTER defensive player. Off-ball he was like a chess player anticipating his opponents' moves. He did things that don't show on the stat sheet like deny passes, cut off driving lanes, and forcing difficult shots without blocking them.

Magic quite truthfully was a liability against smaller PG's. He held his own against forwards which he usually covered and he could rack up steals but he was just about an average defender.

[B]79-80 [/B]

Bird joins a 29-win team and they win 60 games, biggest turnaround in league history at the time. He finishes 2nd in MVP voting and leads his team to the ECF putting 21/11/5 on 47% shooting in the playoffs.

There is no way Magic was better this year unless you take his Game 6 in the Finals and ignore everything else.

[B]80-81[/B]

Bird leads his team to an upset of the Sixers while handily outplaying MVP Dr. J. Of course he then wins a title title while averaging 22/14/6 on 47% shooting in the playoffs.

In 81-82 and 82-83 I can give Magic an edge but in '83 playoffs Bird suffered from a myriad of injuries. And Magic had a rather bad series in the '83 Finals.

[B]83-84[/B]

Bird leads his Celtics over the favored Lakers while averaging 28/11/6 on 52% shooting in the playoffs and 27/14/4 on 48% shooting in the finals. Meanwhile Tragic Magic chokes away two games.

[B]84-85[/B]

Again Bird is a monster in the playoffs averaging 26/9/6 on 46% shooting. By the end of the ECF against Sixers he suffers an injury and plays well below 100% but is still great in the finals putting up 24/9/5 on 45% shooting.

[B]85-86[/B]

No comment needed. Bird >>

[B]86-87[/B]

Bird averages 27/10/7 on 48% shooting and leads the heavily depleted Celtics with injuries to almost all starters except Larry to the Finals and a close loss to the Lakers. Magic is transcendent but barely better than Bird.

[B]87-88[/B]

Bird struggles against Detroit but look at his performances against the Hawks and all season long. He averages 25/9/7 on 45% shooting in the playoffs.

In 88-89, Bird's back gives out and he's never the same player again.

So in their first 9 years it's something like this.

Magic was easily better in '82 and '83
Magic was a bit better in '87 and '88
Bird was a bit better in '85
Bird was a lot better in '80, '81, '84, and '86

Overall for their careers I would take Magic over Bird by a hair because his prime was effectively 3 years longer. But those who watched both of them... Boston fans would say Bird is better, LA fans would say Magic is better, and all the neutral fans would refuse to rank them or put them side by side.

I never want to hear shit like Magic >>> Bird (or vice versa) ever again! Please for the love of god. :cheers:

I have no agenda here. Love them both, watched them both play. Have Magic ahead slightly all time. But a good argument could be constructed for 84-86 peak Bird.

This thread has two things about it that I find completely ridiculous:

The main one:
1. You can't compare head to head in this case (and such a small sample size), because Bird was going up head to head against [B]MICHAEL Freakin' COOPER[/B] in these games...not to mention Big Games James...
DJ was a great defender (in his prime especially), but the Celtics had small guards, and were no match at all for Magic size wise..pass/shoot over 'em all day..
Michael Cooper is one of the top defensive players ever...an NBA Defensive Player Of The Year...and the player who Bird said was the toughest player who ever guarded him...

So let's put things in perspective here:
It's like showing Bird's stats against Michael Cooper, Dennis Rodman (or any of the long rangy defender the Pistons would rotate against him) or Bobby Jones guarding him as opposed to smaller guards often in the West (the Lakers were so long across the board the time, it was hard for the other team to have all bigger people guarding them_ ...I mean c'mon I wonder which stats would be better...
I'm just saying a Bird statline of 25, 11, and 5 with 45% shooting against Michael Cooper is more like 30, 12, 7 with 50% shooting against almost anyone else...
Bird's going head to head with Bobby Jones and Michael Cooper and Rodman and the Pistons all the time in these long playoff series...while Magic's cruising up and down the court at will in the wide open West against the likes of Dallas and Denver...
No player ever had a bigger defensive challenge than Larry Bird did series after series in the '80's, where every team had a long[B] ALL TIME[/B] defender on his a** the whole game...these numbers in this thread are pretty worthless for that reason alone...

2. I was there watching Kareem and Magic and the Lakers as a kid at the time...Magic was clearly the leader of the Lakers hands down...Kareem could put up numbers because he had the hook and Magic got him the ball all the time...but Magic was clearly the most important cog from '82 on...unless you watched it, you wouldn't know..the poster who said the Lakers were Kareem's team until '87...what ARE you smokin? :pimp:

too bad larry couldnt come through in 3 title opportunities vs magic. no excuses either. bird shot .449% in the '85 finals and shot .445% in the '87 finals.....if he played well i wouldnt say shit..but lets be real... not only did he lose to magic's lakers 3 times, he played well below his standards in all 3 matchups.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]I don't get this who was the leader of the team thing. The team before Magic was totally different than the team once he arrived with Magic being the only new piece. Magic was given the franchise contract his second year and in consequence Kareem, who never really had great connect with teammates, threatened to leave the team. I don't see how he could be considered the leader of the team under those conditions.

If you watched the games it's obvious as day who the decision maker was and you could not name me anybody in the history of the league that had more control of the game than Magic did? Who are you saying was the leader of the team?[/QUOTE]

magic would have swept the sixers without kareem.....no big man to slow the team down. thats why the lakers scored a series high 123 pts without kareem in game 6. he(magic) did something that will never be done again....get handed the nba finals mvp as a rookie.....the magic man was the man.