The Wilt Chamberlain Offensive Scouting Report Project Thread:

Here's the latest version, 45 minutes contains scoring plays from ALL levels of competition (HS, NCAA, Kutchers, NBA)

[IMG]https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-GFVaCgXG_NU/U1PpKX6HtSI/AAAAAAAAFEg/B4aajn8RNmg/s640/Youtubethumbnail11.jpg[/IMG]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOBX9ikNzEk[/url]




And this is the old NBA-only version:
[IMG]https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-6UN1PuHaM5Q/Ux1GigjQtsI/AAAAAAAAE_0/LKavG92ks6g/s400/wilt%2520scouting%2520video.jpg[/IMG]
[url]http://youtu.be/2eNdapKU494[/url]

[QUOTE]Inspired by Fpliii, I'm working on a video that will cover the full range of Wilt's offensive abilities that have been captured on film.

Wilt made 12,681 regular season field goals
Wilt made 1,425 playoff field goals
Wilt made 72 all star game field goals

A total of 14,178 field goals made in the NBA. Of these I will try to gather a count of how many are captured on film and in my archive.

I will need/use this thread to discuss with Fpliii and others willing to offer input to flush out details on categorizing plays and figuring out how best to structure the video as I'm working on it. [/QUOTE]

[B]Physical Tools and Athleticism[/B]
[SIZE="1"](intro and what tools he had to work with physically, which shaped his game)[/SIZE]

[B]Left block scoring[/B] ~87 NBA FGM on film (starts at 5:23)

[B]Right block scoring[/B] ~67 NBA FGM on film (starts at 11:27)

[B]Lobs - Deep catches - Transition[/B] ~59 NBA FGM on film (starts at 17:58)

[B]Two Person Game[/B] ~52 NBA FGM on film (starts at 22:28)

[B]Offensive Rebounding[/B] ~70 NBA FGM on film (starts at 27:08)

I've counted/sorted ~335 NBA field goals exist on film... or an estimated 2.36% of his career. Or another way of looking at it, approximately 28 random games worth of baskets.

Currently wondering if I should include all his passing under 2 man game category, or perhaps even have a whole separate half of the video for passing and split passing and scoring entirely

[IMG]http://www.dmvfollowers.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/javale.jpg[/IMG]

Fpliii and Phila what do you think about these categories and subcategories so far?

[quote=CavaliersFTW]Currently wondering if I should include all his passing under 2 man game category, or perhaps even have a whole separate half of the video for passing and split passing and scoring entirely[/quote]
It depends if you want to make a distinction between the various types of passes he made. With the Lakers especially he used the behind the back pass quite a bit.

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwCmKvHJNoQ&t=11m44s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwCmKvHJNoQ&t=11m44s[/URL]

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0faQ-6RJyA&t=3m37s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0faQ-6RJyA&t=3m37s[/URL]


Even in the '67 game footage he was positioned at the mid-post

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiVAFBZzTac&t=5m36s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiVAFBZzTac&t=5m36s[/URL]


There was also the 3 man triangle with Greer & Walker, note how the defense shifts with the pass.

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngg3owcJl1g&t=49s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngg3owcJl1g&t=49s[/URL]


[quote]Fpliii and Phila what do you think about these categories and subcategories so far?[/quote]
This is a good idea based on the available footage, but I am just not sure if it will tell all that much. As you have said in the [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9401682&postcount=69"]other thread[/URL], we are [I]"looking through a small window"[/I].

[QUOTE=PHILA]It depends if you want to make a distinction between the various types of passes he made. With the Lakers especially he used the behind the back pass quite a bit.

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwCmKvHJNoQ&t=11m44s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwCmKvHJNoQ&t=11m44s[/URL]

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0faQ-6RJyA&t=3m37s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0faQ-6RJyA&t=3m37s[/URL]


Even in the '67 game footage he was positioned at the mid-post

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiVAFBZzTac&t=5m36s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiVAFBZzTac&t=5m36s[/URL]


There was also the 3 man triangle with Greer & Walker, note how the defense shifts with the pass.

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngg3owcJl1g&t=49s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngg3owcJl1g&t=49s[/URL]



[B]This is a good idea based on the available footage, but I am just not sure if it will tell all that much. As you have said in the [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9401682&postcount=69"]other thread[/URL], we are [I]"looking through a small window"[/I].[/B][/QUOTE]
We are looking through a small window, but this will definitely be a tool to show a wider audience much more about Wilt than they otherwise would know. His bread and butter moves we've got plenty of on film. The small window makes finding his rarer more creative ways of scoring slim pickings though. There's a couple of his moves we've only got 1 or 2 examples of, he executes them with quickness and good form as if it were comitted to muscle memory like any other of his post moves, yet the move clearly isn't well documented on the film of him available. An example would be his left side jump hook or his sweeping hook, or his left side baseline spin. Heck even his right side spin we've only got on film a few times. But he clearly had them down in his repertoire of how to beat certain types of defense being thrown his way. Moves like those indicate there may be other moves that simply have gone undocumented, given the very small percentage of his field goals that exist on film. Still though, would leaving Fatal9s 2 minute 'Wilt post up skill' video as the only source for people to see Wilt posting up be a better option? I think not, I'd like to make the video just to show clips like those do not encapsulate Wilt's ability to post up.

[QUOTE]I think not, I'd like to make the video just to show clips like those do not encapsulate Wilt's ability to post up.[/QUOTE]

Yes, that is a good point. But most of the posters who cite that (unlisted) video already have a bias against Chamberlain and will look for anything to use against him.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Currently wondering if I should include all his passing under 2 man game category, or perhaps even have a whole separate half of the video for passing and split passing and scoring entirely[/QUOTE]
Good list, I'm not sure. Personally I wouldn't mind interweaving them (i.e. left block scoring followed by left block passing, etc.) but you raise a good point about keeping them separate. I'm not quite sure, tbh.
[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Fpliii and Phila what do you think about these categories and subcategories so far?[/QUOTE]Great stuff. Just wondering, do you have any footage of Wilt shooting from the high post? If so, where would you want to put it?

[QUOTE=PHILA]Yes, that is a good point. But most of the posters who cite that (unlisted) video already have a bias against Chamberlain and will look for anything to use against him.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps some have made their minds up, but a complete scouting video will be very useful to some. I can't speak for anyone else, but I know for me personally this will be huge in evaluating Wilt's offensive game. This kind of project is unprecedented IMO, could be a huge asset to the community.

[QUOTE=fpliii]Good list, I'm not sure. Personally I wouldn't mind interweaving them (i.e. left block scoring followed by left block passing, etc.) but you raise a good point about keeping them separate. I'm not quite sure, tbh.
Great stuff. Just wondering, do you have any footage of Wilt shooting from the high post? If so, where would you want to put it?[/QUOTE]
So far I've come across no NBA footage of him shooting from the high post as far as 'setting up' there. He does make some passes and set screens, but as far as scoring he'll just pick and roll or be a backdoor finisher inside from there a few times. For example in one play where one teammate is already in the right block for spacing Chamberlain went up top, and he's stepping in and out of the paint for a few moments at the free throw line looking for his teammate to see him, and to avoid a 3 second violation, then once he has an opening he makes eye contact with his teammate who was in the post and barrels right down the middle - get's the hand off and jams.

He actually does shoot from the high post in NCAA footage at least a few times. In Wilt's 100 point game the 4th quarter announcer says one of his shots was taken from the top of circle too, so he may have rarely took that shot in the NBA too it just doesn't exist on film, but it also could have just been where he releases his fadeaway shot from the right block, because he fades into the high post for that shot on the right side. But he catches the ball and starts the play in the low post so that's what I'm counting those plays as.

[QUOTE]The Wilt Chamberlain Offensive Scouting Report Project Thread:[/QUOTE]

Man among children

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]So far I've come across no NBA footage of him shooting from the high post as far as 'setting up' there. He does make some passes and set screens, but as far as scoring he'll just pick and roll or be a backdoor finisher inside from there a few times. For example in one play where one teammate is already in the right block for spacing Chamberlain went up top, and he's stepping in and out of the paint for a few moments at the free throw line looking for his teammate to see him, and to avoid a 3 second violation, then once he has an opening he makes eye contact with his teammate who was in the post and barrels right down the middle - get's the hand off and jams.

He actually does shoot from the high post in NCAA footage at least a few times. In Wilt's 100 point game the 4th quarter announcer says one of his shots was taken from the top of circle too, so he may have rarely took that shot in the NBA too it just doesn't exist on film, but it also could have just been where he releases his fadeaway shot from the right block, because he fades into the high post for that shot on the right side. But he catches the ball and starts the play in the low post so that's what I'm counting those plays as.[/QUOTE]
When he was on Sixers Wilt had a jumper in the paint. It was like an 8 footer, inside the free throw line and it was a straight up or a fadeaway.

I've never seen any video clips anywhere of that shot but a few of us guys have distinct memories of him shooting it over Willis Reed and Bells on the Knicks and LeRoy Ellis on the Bullets. It wasn't anything amazing, like a Dirk ostrich move, you know?
But it was a real solid part of his game.

It was a counter that he used instead of the finger roll/dunk from the right block.
Similar to his left block moves, where you didn't know if he was going up and under, or power dunk, or spin, or step back and turnaround fadeaway - but this was done from the [B]right [/B]block, where over on that side his main "go-to" moves were the finger roll or dunk. But instead, he would sort of lurch out of the finger roll, take a quick step forward (toward the free throw line), and instead of the pass out to the guard, he would spin back around to face the hoop while leaping for the high release jumper.

He had such a vertical that his release was real high but that shot did get blocked by Bells according to my friend Joey (shameless Knicks fan notwithstanding).

[I]edit ~ also I may have missed it in OP but do you have his finger roll listed? His most famous shot - it was actually a counter and absolutely unstoppable.[/I]

Good stuff, both of you. CavsFTW, do you have any 8ft-ish jumpers from the paint that Fresco mentioned? Or do all of those plays originate on the block?

Also regarding the finger roll, in which categories did you mix it?

[QUOTE=PHILA]Yes, that is a good point. But most of the posters who cite that (unlisted) video already have a bias against Chamberlain and will look for anything to use against him.[/QUOTE]

Oh c'mon, we could as well tell that you or CavaliersFTW have agenda, pro Wilt bias and no presented facts will change your opinion. It was discussed many times on realGM and most better posters, from polite ones like DoctorMJ, through Elgee, Chicago76, mysticcbb or fatal, to emotional ones like Bastillon agrees that Wilt was limited scorer and his impact on the game was lower than his box score numbers suggest.

[QUOTE=trueDS]Oh c'mon, we could as well tell that you or CavaliersFTW have agenda, pro Wilt bias and no presented facts will change your opinion. It was discussed many times on realGM and most better posters, from polite ones like DoctorMJ, through Elgee, Chicago76, mysticcbb or fatal, to emotional ones like Bastillon agrees that [B]Wilt was limited scorer[/B] and his impact on the game was lower than his box score numbers suggest.[/QUOTE]
Literally laughed out loud, a bunch of nerds on realgm convinced themselves Wilt Chamberlain 'was a limited scorer', aint that the cutest thing I ever heard :oldlol:

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]When he was on Sixers Wilt had a jumper in the paint. It was like an 8 footer, inside the free throw line and it was a straight up or a fadeaway.

I've never seen any video clips anywhere of that shot but a few of us guys have distinct memories of him shooting it over Willis Reed and Bells on the Knicks and LeRoy Ellis on the Bullets. It wasn't anything amazing, like a Dirk ostrich move, you know?
But it was a real solid part of his game.

It was a counter that he used instead of the finger roll/dunk from the right block.
Similar to his left block moves, where you didn't know if he was going up and under, or power dunk, or spin, or step back and turnaround fadeaway - but this was done from the [B]right [/B]block, where over on that side his main "go-to" moves were the finger roll or dunk. But instead, he would sort of lurch out of the finger roll, take a quick step forward (toward the free throw line), and instead of the pass out to the guard, he would spin back around to face the hoop while leaping for the high release jumper.

He had such a vertical that his release was real high but that shot did get blocked by Bells according to my friend Joey (shameless Knicks fan notwithstanding).

[I]edit ~ also I may have missed it in OP but do you have his finger roll listed? His most famous shot - it was actually a counter and absolutely unstoppable.[/I][/QUOTE]

[quote=fpliii]Good stuff, both of you. CavsFTW, do you have any 8ft-ish jumpers from the paint that Fresco mentioned? Or do all of those plays originate on the block?

Also regarding the finger roll, in which categories did you mix it?[/quote]

I've definitely got his 8 foot jumper from the right block, prior to footage of his championship sixer seasons (and all footage after) he seems to have taken that shot quite a bit as I have several examples of it, however all of them are fading away none are a straight up variant. The finger roll will be put into its appropriate foot work and block side categories, I will try to cluster all similar executed shots down to the fakes and footwork

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]I've definitely got his 8 foot jumper from the right block, prior to footage of his championship sixer seasons (and all footage after) [B]he seems to have taken that shot quite a bit as I have several examples of it, however all of them are fading away none are a straight up variant.[/B] The finger roll will be put into its appropriate foot work and block side categories, I will try to cluster all similar executed shots down to the fakes and footwork[/QUOTE]
Are any from just inside the free-throw line though as Fresco mentioned? If not, in that case, do you think it's worth it to include the NCAA footage of shots from the high post?

You could put overlay text saying NCAA Footage and note in the description that it was a shot he used (particularly with the Sixers), but there isn't any available footage at the moment.

I can understand if you don't want to do that though, since it's an NBA mix, and college footage wouldn't be against the same defenses.

[QUOTE=fpliii]Are any from just inside the free-throw line though as Fresco mentioned? If not, in that case, do you think it's worth it to include the NCAA footage of shots from the high post?

You could put overlay text saying NCAA Footage and note in the description that it was a shot he used (particularly with the Sixers), but there isn't any available footage at the moment.

I can understand if you don't want to do that though, since it's an NBA mix, and college footage wouldn't be against the same defenses.[/QUOTE]
I'm open to the idea, we will see once I get all his nba footage in place I'll skim thru his NCAA clips and if I see shots being taken absent from the nba mix I may upload some to show u guys and ask if u think it should be included. Heck he shoots some jays from beyond the ft line in college if I'm not mistaken not just from inside

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]I[B]'m open to the idea, we will see once I get all his nba footage in place I'll skim thru his NCAA clips and if I see shots being taken absent from the nba mix[/B] I may upload some to show u guys and ask if u think it should be included. [B]Heck he shoots some jays from beyond the ft line in college if I'm not mistaken not just from inside[/B][/QUOTE]
Sounds good. As I said though, be sure to put some text in the corner while the college highlights are playing.

Regarding the shots from beyond the line, did he take those in the pros? If so you should perhaps consider giving them the same treatment (again, with some overlay in the corner saying something like "NCAA Footage" with a note in the description). If not, probably leave them out. I'm interested in what Laz, Fresco, and PHILA have to say though, perhaps they know more about whether or not he took those shots in the NBA.

CavsFan...

IMHO, I would definitely add Wilt's college footage in your work. I know the ridiculous Wilt-bashers will scoff at his competition, but as I have stated before, would a world record time in the 100 be dismissed because of lower competition? Furthermore, we KNOW that an NBA Chamberlain just slaughtered his HOF peers on a nightly basis.

The fact was, there is practically no known footage of an early NBA Chamberlain. BUT, in the limited college footage that exists, Wilt is seen hitting TWO jump shots from beyond the FT line, as well as numerous 10-12 turn-arounds.

And we KNOW this much...

[url]http://wiltfan.tripod.com/quotes.html[/url]

[QUOTE]

Carl Braun said "He [Wilt] disorganizes you under the basket the same way [as Bill Russell, on defense]. With Wilt, of course, there's that offense on top of it, which is better than Russell's. He hit on all those jumpers."
[B]"Yes, Wilt hit on those jumpers...Wilt did come into the league with a good touch from the outside, which made his early scoring that much more significant[/B]. He wasn't just dunking the ball then."

--Red Holzman. A View from the Bench. P.70
[/QUOTE]

And in his 62 ASG, he was hitting several shots from 10-15 feet as well.

Clearly, he came into the league taking considerably more extended shots, than later in his career. His eFG%'s were affected, but then again, at that time, EVERYONE's was. It was a much more brutal game back then. (Incidently, in case a Wilt-basher jumps in...the NBA shot a higher FT% in the 58-59 season, than it did just last year.)

Obviously, as the years went by, he became more selective, but he was still highly skilled thru his 65-66 season, which was arguably his greatest "scoring season"...he just killed Bellamy, Thurmond, and Russell in nearly every H2H, and given the fact that he had averaged 40 ppg against Reed the season before, I think it could be argued that he was at his peak.

BTW,

Chamberlain had the HIGH scoring game in every season from '62 thru '69. So if any Wilt-basher claims that Wilt somehow lost his scoring ability (as an SI article reported, and which hit the newstands the night after Chamberlain put up the first of TWO 60+ point games in a matter of a few days)...they would be WRONG. Even as late as his 69-70 season, when his new coach, Joe Mullaney asked him to become a scorer again, he put up 32.2 ppg on .579 in his first nine games, and just before he shredded his knee.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]CavsFan...

[B]IMHO, I would definitely add Wilt's college footage in your work.[/B] I know the ridiculous Wilt-bashers will scoff at his competition, but as I have stated before, would a world record time in the 100 be dismissed because of lower competition? Furthermore, we KNOW that an NBA Chamberlain just slaughtered his HOF peers on a nightly basis.

[B]The fact was, there is practically no known footage of an early NBA Chamberlain. BUT, in the limited college footage that exists, Wilt is seen hitting TWO jump shots from beyond the FT line, as well as numerous 10-12 turn-arounds.[/B]

And we KNOW this much...

[url]http://wiltfan.tripod.com/quotes.html[/url]



And in his 62 ASG, he was hitting several shots from 10-15 feet as well.

[B]Clearly, he came into the league taking considerably more extended shots, than later in his career.[/B] His eFG%'s were affected, but then again, at that time, EVERYONE's was. It was a much more brutal game back then. (Incidently, in case a Wilt-basher jumps in...the NBA shot a higher FT% in the 58-59 season, than it did just last year.)

Obviously, as the years went by, he became more selective, but he was still highly skilled thru his 65-66 season, which was arguably his greatest "scoring season"...he just killed Bellamy, Thurmond, and Russell in nearly every H2H, and given the fact that he had averaged 40 ppg against Reed the season before, I think it could be argued that he was at his peak.[/QUOTE]

I agree now that the college footage of jumpers should be included, but there definitely needs to be some notation that that portion is from his college days, either as an overlay on the video or in the description. Also, the footage should only be used for types of shots/plays for which we don't have any other footage available.

[QUOTE=fpliii]I agree now that the college footage of jumpers should be included, but there definitely needs to be some notation that that portion is from his college days, either as an overlay on the video or in the description. Also, the footage should only be used for types of shots/plays for which we don't have any other footage available.[/QUOTE]
If I do include it it most certainly will have it's own notification in bold text indicating it is not NBA footage. It begs the question, should I include footage of college passing too? I have footage of Wilt running the break off a rebound in college and doing a behind the back pass that leads directly to an assist. Not just any old Zydruns Ilgauskus sized player can do that :lol

[QUOTE=fpliii]I agree now that the college footage of jumpers should be included, but there definitely needs to be some notation that that portion is from his college days, either as an overlay on the video or in the description. Also, the footage should only be used for types of shots/plays for which we don't have any other footage available.[/QUOTE]

I don't have a problem with a "notation" but when a player is clearly comfortable taking, and MAKING, those shots, well, it is what it was.

BTW, his FT shooting form was much better in that college footage, too, and in fact, he shot over 60% in college, and considering that he shot .613 in his 61-62 season, I strongly suspect it was very similar then, as well.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]If I do include it it most certainly will have it's own notification in bold text indicating it is not NBA footage. It begs the question, should I include footage of college passing too? I have footage of Wilt running the break off a rebound in college and doing a behind the back pass that leads directly to an assist. Not just any old Zydruns Ilgauskus sized player can do that :lol[/QUOTE]

Again, WHY NOT? If he had jumped over the top of the backboard in college footage, but we never saw it again in the NBA, in the 2% of the footage that exists, would we make the assumption that he didn't do it in the NBA?

Oh, and if you BOLD TEXT it...also BOLD TEXT that comment from Red Holzman. Clearly, the assumption has to be that he was routinely making 15+ foot shots in his early NBA career.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]If I do include it it most certainly will have it's own notification in bold text indicating it is not NBA footage. It begs the question, should I include footage of college passing too? I have footage of Wilt running the break off a rebound in college and doing a behind the back pass that leads directly to an assist. Not just any old Zydruns Ilgauskus sized player can do that :lol[/QUOTE]
lol up to you, but most importantly, we want it to be representative of his NBA offense (we have quotes vouching for the longer jumpers, but I don't know if we do with regards to the passing). If you think it fits in go for it. He probably had even more handling/passing in his Globies days, I wonder how often he utilized that and other such skills/plays in the pros?

BTW, you don't necessarily need a big bold notation. If you want an overlay, a light watermark would suffice I think. Or you could bold it in the description.

:confusedshrug:

Incidently, if you are going to make a notation about his college skills, I would add a comment that, the following footage only depicts about 2% of Chamberlain's NBA career, and in fact, footage from his greatest games is virtually non-existent.

It would be tempting to add Fatal's FLAWED two minute POS video to the beginning of YOUR work...just to make him look like a complete fool.

[url]http://omgili.com/thread/jHIAmI4hxg.T0DNHlli6jhmYLqVGU3kopqURpphjLB.9yMuvqLxXw8jWrVPHO5Rxhfrx3axiJ_QstqMZdn7fuDqe8cbLyQVZ/[/url]

[QUOTE=fpliii][url]http://omgili.com/thread/jHIAmI4hxg.T0DNHlli6jhmYLqVGU3kopqURpphjLB.9yMuvqLxXw8jWrVPHO5Rxhfrx3axiJ_QstqMZdn7fuDqe8cbLyQVZ/[/url][/QUOTE]
What is omgili?

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]What is omgili?[/QUOTE]
Site that crawls major forums, and copies over portions of some (maybe all?) notable threads with previews and links to the forum.

Someone posted it in OTC a few months ago, pretty weird site lol.

EDIT - Here's the thread:

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=300117[/url]

[QUOTE=trueDS]Oh c'mon, we could as well tell that you or CavaliersFTW have agenda, pro Wilt bias and no presented facts will change your opinion. It was discussed many times on realGM and most better posters, from polite ones like DoctorMJ, through Elgee, Chicago76, mysticcbb or fatal, to emotional ones like Bastillon agrees that Wilt was limited scorer and his impact on the game was lower than his box score numbers suggest.[/QUOTE]

And most of them had an anti-Chamberlain agenda. El Gee posted some ridiculous formula that I trashed here regarding points per possessions, which tried to make Wilt look like an average scorer.

And we KNOW that Fatal went off the deep end regarding Chamberlain. He used to dispute every account that was given...until CavsFan started postiong VIDEO footage, and INTERVIEWS with Tex Winter and Arnold Schwartenegger. He was gone shortly thereafter.

Chamberlain single-handedly was taking LAST PLACE rosters to within an eyelash of beating the greatest dynasty in the history of the NBA. And he did so with players that were no better before they played with him, nor afterwards. None of them suffered statistically because of Chamberlain. Most were average to below average players who performed even worse in the post-season.

And while Chamberlain was being SWARMED (virtually an endless supply of first-hand accounts, as well as footage from the second half of game four of the '64 Finals), he was not only shutting down his HOF opposing centers, he was trying to defend their entire teams. In that game four of the '64 Finals, Russell stuffs the game-winner on an offensive rebound. Why? Because Chamberlain leaped out an forced Heinsohn to throw up an horriblel shot that clanked off into Russell's hands. And the game-winner in the '62 EDF's, Yep, Sam Jones (who would hit many in his post-season career)...and over guess who...Chamberlain's fingertips.

Sorry, but you guys really need to move on.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]And most of them had an anti-Chamberlain agenda. El Gee posted some ridiculous formula that I trashed here regarding points per possessions, which tried to make Wilt look like an average scorer.

And we KNOW that Fatal went off the deep end regarding Chamberlain. He used to dispute every account that was given...until CavsFan started postiong VIDEO footage, and INTERVIEWS with Tex Winter and Arnold Schwartenegger. He was gone shortly thereafter.

Chamberlain single-handedly was taking LAST PLACE rosters to within an eyelash of beating the greatest dynasty in the history of the NBA. And he did so with players that were no better before they played with him, nor afterwards. None of them suffered statistically because of Chamberlain. Most were average to below average players who performed even worse in the post-season.

And while Chamberlain was being SWARMED (virtually an endless supply of first-hand accounts, as well as footage from the second half of game four of the '64 Finals), he was not only shutting down his HOF opposing centers, he was trying to defend their entire teams. In that game four of the '64 Finals, Russell stuffs the game-winner on an offensive rebound. Why? Because Chamberlain leaped out an forced Heinsohn to throw up an horriblel shot that clanked off into Russell's hands. And the game-winner in the '62 EDF's, Yep, Sam Jones (who would hit many in his post-season career)...and over guess who...Chamberlain's fingertips.

Sorry, but you guys really need to move on.[/QUOTE]
I just can't believe a bunch of nerds on the internet who never saw Wilt play one day decided enough was enough about Wilt ruining their basketball discussions with all his pesky NBA records and stories of incredible size, strength and skill so they decided to contrive these 'formulas' and shit to try and support some completely 180 degree notion that WILT CHAMBERLAIN it turns out, WASN'T any good offensively :eek: ...

:roll: I can't even say that with a straight face... It's so backwards it reminds me of the corny shit conspiracy theorists would come up with. Water it turns out, ISN'T in fact wet guys! If you make adjustments to it using these formulas you'll see how dry it actually is! :eek:

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]I just can't believe a bunch of nerds on the internet who never saw Wilt play one day decided enough was enough about Wilt ruining their basketball discussions with all his pesky NBA records and his insane dominance so they decided to contrive these 'formulas' and shit to try and support some completely 180 degree notion that WILT CHAMBERLAIN it turns out, WASN'T any good offensively :eek: ...

:roll: I can't even say that with a straight face... It's so backwards it reminds me of the corny shit conspiracy theorists would come up with.

... really the statistically greatest offensive player of all time, and the physically most dominant specimen ever... was NOT any good offensively?... oh rlly!?, Oh and let's not forget they tried to say he in fact WASN'T that physically dominant either, it was 'only for his time' remember people pushing that too? IE 24 inch vertical :oldlol: This wasn't but a few years back, til I started doing research on his wingspan, weight, height without shoes and how it compares with modern players. As well as identifying pieces of footage where he clearly displayed his incredible size and/or athleticism.

These nerds tried penalizing Wilt for every possible thing they could, they'd even take his records and turn them into something negative. Never fouled out? "DIDN'T PLAY DEFENSE!"... Stamina/minutes played records? "WOULD NEVER PLAY THAT MUCH TODAY, MAKES STATS NOT IMPRESSIVE"... These guys thought they every angle figured out so as to have Wilt written off for good, but there is a ton of logical fallacies, assumptions (now proven to be incorrect) and holes in their agenda they came up with. Because that's what happen when you're agenda couldn't be further from the truth, they're basically trying to argue that water isn't wet :oldlol: [B]This scouting video should kill any 'unksilled' nonsense. I will be glad when it is finished and out there for people to see[/B].[/QUOTE]

AMEN Brother!

[IMG]http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/45457770.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]And most of them had an anti-Chamberlain agenda. El Gee posted some ridiculous formula that I trashed here regarding points per possessions, [/QUOTE]

Really, where?
Besides the most important thing is Wilt's impact (that's all what matters in basketball) and guys on realGM clearly showed his impact wasn't GOAT like or "unstoppable scorer" like.

And of course - if you are using rhetoric like "most of them had anti Wilt agenda" then the same can be said about you or others here: most of you had pro Wilt bias and that's why you guys don't see the truth and use personal attacks instead of reasonable discussion.

[QUOTE=trueDS]Really, where?
Besides the most important thing is Wilt's impact (that's all what matters in basketball) and guys on realGM clearly showed his impact wasn't GOAT like or "unstoppable scorer" like.

And of course - if you are using rhetoric like "most of them had anti Wilt agenda" then the same can be said about you or others here: most of you had pro Wilt bias and that's why you guys don't see the truth and use personal attacks instead of reasonable discussion.[/QUOTE]
The nerds on realgm did nothing but fabricate,, err i mean 'adjust' numbers in a way that would make Wilt seem less than he actually was, because that was their ultimate objective. Penalize Wilt for his own records. Minutes played records? "PER 36 stats!!', never fouled out of a game? 'Didn't play defense!'. None of their numbers and conclusions have any merit, they re just a bunch of nerds who never saw Wilt play but were obsessed with finding a way of making him, an unbelievably dominant player, seem underwhelmingly 'normal'. They set out to explain why water isn't wet, and that's just what they accomplished. Until of course, somebody turns up the truth. That's why those guys fled ISH. Too many actual basketball historians started turning up data and film that demolished their agenda.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Literally laughed out loud, a bunch of nerds on realgm convinced themselves Wilt Chamberlain 'was a limited scorer', aint that the cutest thing I ever heard :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

You really think making a video showing he did all that means anything at all, You can do that with most players who ever played if you just want to take a few examples of them doing this or that. You could do this and make Rodman seem like a good scorer. I love your video but this is nothing more then propaganda.


Compared to a lot of todays players Wilt's offense was very limited. Basketball has evolved a lot since Wilt played. He should be considered one of the best ever just because what he did during his time, and if he grew up today with todays basketball skills he might still be the best. But put Wilt from 1968 against todays league and he is not much of a scorer.

[QUOTE=stanlove1111]You really think making a video showing he did all that means anything at all, You can do that with most players who ever played if you just want to take a few examples of them doing this or that. You could do this and make Rodman seem like a good scorer. I love your video but this is nothing more then propaganda.


Compared to a lot of todays players Wilt's offense was very limited. Basketball has evolved a lot since Wilt played. He should be considered one of the best ever just because what he did during his time, and if he grew up today with todays basketball skills he might still be the best. But put Wilt from 1968 against todays league and he is not much of a scorer.[/QUOTE]
You don't get it, I'm taking every fgm captured on film and putting it all together. I'm not 'taking a few examples of this or that'. A random 1.8-3% (between 375 and 620fg's, and the latter is a generous estimate, the total count is yet to be determined). These are also all bias towards playoff and ASG clips due to extremely limited coverage of regular season match ups in that era. Simply put there isn't enough available to 'cherry pick' even if I'd wanted too. Ergo I'm going to show it all, to at least get a vague idea of not only the variety of ways which he was capable of scoring, but also the shots he appeared to depend on to get the mother share of his points. You'll be able to see which shots within the 1.75-3% window he wanted to take the most often.

What you asserted I'm doing and what I'm actually doing are two different things. More than half of Rodman's career probably exists on film, heck maybe all of it does, not under 3 percent. You can cherry pick the crap out of his footage as you stated, but how in any way whatsoever would that compare to what I'm doing? That isn't my objective nor do I even have that capability with the Wilt footage. I'm just going to put all his known FGM on the table.

Wilt made 20,628 career FG's, less than 600 likely exists on film, heck I'd be surprised if more than 450 exists on film to be honest.

Rodman made 3216 - or a little over 5 and a half fgm per game reg season and just under 5 and a half fgm per game playoffs. 3216 * .0225 (representing a 2.25% coverage of his career) = the equivalent of just 80 totally random fgm from his career to choose from to try and show off Dennis Rodman as a 'great scorer' as you put it. Equal to about 14 random games he played. Roll the dice and pick 14 games from his career, make at least 2 of them his 2 all star game appearances actually, where he scored 16 points - the remaining 12 random games make it bias to playoff games he played in, from the latter half of his career. And that's what you'd have to work with to make it 'seem' like Dennis Rodman was a 'great scorer'. Good luck with that. Rodman hardly ever scored in any way outside of an offensive rebound or backdoor play where he was left wide open anyways. You don't understand how plays unfold in basketball if you think you can take a player who's poor at something and make him look like he's great at it. How Rodman scored vs how Wilt scored is vastly different. You can show 100 points being scored by Wilt and 100 point being scored by Rodman and Wilt is going to look more versatile and dominant doing it than Rodman. Rodman, regardless of how many times you show him score points, doesn't iso people and do a lot of work to get in position to score over defense, Wilt does.

I can't wait for this...

With the small influx we are getting from the "Wlit-bashers" at RealGM, this should put an end to this nonsense about Wilt's POOR offensive game.

I already KNOW that Chamberlain had EXCELLENT range of 10-12 feet in the mid-60's (it was basically unstoppable), but from the college footage that exists, and the first-hand accounts of his early seasons in the NBA, there was no question that his SKILL levels were probably among the best ever of the pure centers.

True, his FT shooting was never good, but it was adequate early in his career (and at times, even spectacular.) But, Shaq couldn't shoot from eight+ feet much, either, and was just as bad from the line. And yet there are those that would claim that he was "unstoppable."

And again, I hope that you can somehow slip in Fatal's two-minute garbage video, before the beginning of your's. Why? Because it would be the equivalent of SI running a story in late January of 1969, claiming that Wilt could no longer score...and Chamberlain unleashing the first of TWO 60+ point games on the night before it hit the newstands.