Cleveland got lucky but no one else missed out majorly or got robbed.
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Cleveland got lucky but no one else missed out majorly or got robbed.
Lakers got robbed.
[QUOTE=ImKobe]Lakers got robbed.[/QUOTE]
its fine we will poach the top picks eventually... Right?:cry:
[QUOTE=ImKobe]Lakers got robbed.[/QUOTE]
blame Swaggy P
I like willies
I have never had any problems with the Cavs and felt bad for them when LeBron left, but I think I will now have a hard time rooting for them. If they are successful, it will feel gifted and unearned. They have no excuse for being a shitty franchise now and if they win, it will be because "they should have."
Thanks to nick young and idiot dantoni for fu.cking the lakers for the foreseeable future:(
la was robbed
[QUOTE=Myth]I have never had any problems with the Cavs and felt bad for them when LeBron left, but I think I will now have a hard time rooting for them. If they are successful, it will feel gifted and unearned. They have no excuse for being a shitty franchise now and if they win, it will be because "they should have."[/QUOTE]
It's the cavs, they'll fu.ck this up somehow..
Like I said, IDK what to tell Cav fans if they don't make the playoffs next year. Especially in this conference.
[QUOTE=Myth]I have never had any problems with the Cavs and felt bad for them when LeBron left, but I think I will now have a hard time rooting for them. If they are successful, it will feel gifted and unearned. They have no excuse for being a shitty franchise now and if they win, it will be because "they should have."[/QUOTE]
The Cavs just feel like a punch of good pieces thrown in together but the fit and culture seems to be pretty bad.
In hindsight the Lakers are in a bit of trouble, will probably be in that 8-11 range in the West next year. Not good enough to do much, not bad enough to get a high lotto pick. That Kobe contract will really hurt.
[QUOTE=DaSeba5]Like I said, [B]IDK what to tell Cav fans if they don't make the playoffs next year.[/B] Especially in this conference.[/QUOTE]
point a finger and laugh? :confusedshrug:
[QUOTE=Myth]I have never had any problems with the Cavs and felt bad for them when LeBron left, but I think I will now have a hard time rooting for them. If they are successful, it will feel gifted and unearned. They have no excuse for being a shitty franchise now and if they win, it will be because "they should have."[/QUOTE]
This.
Don't know why people are surprised. It's the same with the Oilers in hockey and they were terrible enough to earn those picks. Nobody likes a handout and when you have a team win 3/4 1st overall picks people won't like
People will get over it but in a few years if they become good whenever there fans talk shit it'll be like "duh you won the lottery 3 fkcing times" :lol
[QUOTE=NuggetsFan]This.
Don't know why people are surprised. It's the same with the Oilers in hockey and they were terrible enough to earn those picks. Nobody likes a handout and when you have a team win 3/4 1st overall picks people won't like
People will get over it but in a few years if they become good whenever there fans talk shit it'll be like "duh you won the lottery 3 fkcing times" :lol[/QUOTE]
Edmonton :applause:
[QUOTE=NuggetsFan]This.
Don't know why people are surprised. It's the same with the Oilers in hockey and they were terrible enough to earn those picks. Nobody likes a handout and when you have a team win 3/4 1st overall picks people won't like
People will get over it but in a few years if they become good whenever there fans talk shit it'll be like "duh you won the lottery 3 fkcing times" :lol[/QUOTE]
If you get a #1, #2, #4 over the course of a bad stretch, fine, especially if your team set out strategically to land those, including trading players for picks that worked out. But 3 #1s is unheard of, and to do it by pure luck after your shitty team failed to make the playoffs with a pretty good roster? Just insane.
Imagine if Clippers had Griffin (2009), but then lucked into Irving 2 years later, followed by Anthony Davis. There would be no excuse for them to not be a championship contender.
It would have been nice if the Kings actually got a top 2 pick for once, instead we are now looking to trade the 8th pick.
[QUOTE=Myth]If you get a #1, #2, #4 over the course of a bad stretch, fine, especially if your team set out strategically to land those, including trading players for picks that worked out. But 3 #1s is unheard of, and to do it by pure luck after your shitty team failed to make the playoffs with a pretty good roster? Just insane.
Imagine if Clippers had Griffin (2009), but then lucked into Irving 2 years later, followed by Anthony Davis. There would be no excuse for them to not be a championship contender.[/QUOTE]
Erm, the Clippers did luck into the Irving pick. They just stupidly traded it to the Cavs prior to the draft with no protections. Wouldn't such a move be a credit to the Cavs' organization? I mean, isn't Irving only on the team because of a heady trade? The Cavs made their own luck that year at the Clippers' expense.
If Sterling would have been willing to pay Baron Davis' contract for one more season, [I][B]they [/B][/I]would have had back-to-back No. 1 picks that were far easier and in better drafts than what the Cavs have faced the last two years.
And, it's not the same as the situation you described above... at all. Both Griffin and Davis were clear No. 1 picks, as was Kyrie to a lesser extent.
The Cavs, with their own actual pick, have gotten the No. 1 selection twice, but one was in what may go down as the worst draft class ever. Guys like McLemore, Porter and Len and the teams that drafted them were actually much better off not going No. 1, because they were all awful and didn't have to endure the scrutiny of being the No. 1 pick. As it turned out, having the top pick last year was more a distraction than a godsend and it would have been that way had the Cavs gone in most of the other possible directions being considered (McLemore, Porter, Len).
That's nothing like having clear picks like Griffin, Davis or Irving dropped in your lap.
Even this year, it seems Embiid is most people's top pick, but he has a potentially serious medical issue afoot. Again, not a clear choice here like the three you mentioned. The right choices still have to be made and it isn't as easy as just saying "Anthony Davis" and closing the book. When it comes to "lucking into players," draft classes matter... a lot.
[QUOTE=Myth]I have never had any problems with the Cavs and felt bad for them when LeBron left, but I think I will now have a hard time rooting for them. If they are successful, it will feel gifted and unearned. They have no excuse for being a shitty franchise now and if they win, it will be because "they should have."[/QUOTE]
Are people serious? :oldlol:
First it was "build the team the right way; through the draft".
Now even that isn't the right way.
It has become "build the team right way, without getting too lucky, and don't buy too many good players as well"...
:oldlol:
[QUOTE=plowking]Are people serious? :oldlol:
First it was "build the team the right way; through the draft".
Now even that isn't the right way.
It has become "build the team right way, without getting too lucky, and don't buy too many good players as well"...
:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
People are insane.
Simmons has been using the phrase "God hates Cleveland" for several years. Now, all of a sudden, even he's acting like everything good gets handed to [I][B]us[/B][/I]... Cleveland.
Insane.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]Erm, the Clippers did luck into the Irving pick. They just stupidly traded it to the Cavs prior to the draft with no protections. Wouldn't such a move be a credit to the Cavs' organization? I mean, isn't Irving only on the team because of a heady trade? The Cavs made their own luck that year at the Clippers' expense. [/QUOTE]
Forgot about that. Still Cavs lucked into 2 #1 picks AFTER landing Irving.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]People are insane.
Simmons has been using the phrase "God hates Cleveland" for several years. Now, all of a sudden, even he's acting like everything good gets handed to [I][B]us[/B][/I]... Cleveland.
Insane.[/QUOTE]
It is a damn lottery. It is completely random. People need to get over it. :oldlol:
[QUOTE=plowking]Are people serious? :oldlol:
First it was "build the team the right way; through the draft".
Now even that isn't the right way.
It has become "build the team right way, without getting too lucky, and don't buy too many good players as well"...
:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
The difference between Cavs and the Heat though, is you can't really hold it against the Cavs organization the same way in the sense that they lucked out rather than the players colluding to make a super team. But at the same time, it would be hard to credit the organization for their success if they get 3 #1 picks in 4 years. Any team to do that should be expected to win.
[QUOTE=Myth]The difference between Cavs and the Heat though, is you can't really hold it against the Cavs organization the same way in the sense that they lucked out rather than the players colluding to make a super team. But at the same time, it would be hard to credit the organization for their success if they get 3 #1 picks in 4 years. Any team to do that should be expected to win.[/QUOTE]
You can't hold it against either team.
One team got lucky through the draft, the other signed [B]free[/B] agents.
There is no right way to build a team, like some on here think. Well there is, and the Heat are doing it right recently, since they've been the team winning.
[QUOTE=Myth]Forgot about that. Still Cavs lucked into 2 #1 picks AFTER landing Irving.[/QUOTE]
...one of which was in a draft that probably most GMs were happy to pick 2nd-5th instead.
Look, I'm not saying what has happened isn't perplexing. I was shocked by tonight's result. But, people really do need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture when acting like a dynasty has been handed to us on a silver platter.
There have been no LeBrons or Durants in the drafts we've had high picks in over the last few years. The closest thing is Anthony Davis, and New Orleans won the lottery that year. That's the best draft we've taken part in post-LeBron and our pick was actually knocked down one spot from where it was projected prior to the lottery.
We'll see what happens with these guys in this upcoming draft... hopefully it will turn out well. But, so far, it definitely doesn't feel like the deck has been unfairly stacked in the Cavs' favor. It's not because of bad picks, either... Irving was the right choice, Thompson/Waiters were perfectly reasonable where they went and last year's draft was abhorrent.
There were no Tim Duncans, Shaqs or LeBrons available, as far as I can tell.
The point is, being gifted a player happens. Being gifted the whole core of a team just takes away a challenge that makes it fun to root for a team. Thunder was gifted Durant, but they made smart selections outside of that. Spurs were gifted Duncan back in the day, but the rest of their core was made from wise decisions. Much easier rooting for rosters that weren't completely gifted to a franchise IMO.
[QUOTE=plowking]You can't hold it against either team.
One team got lucky through the draft, the other signed [B]free[/B] agents.
There is no right way to build a team, like some on here think. Well there is, and the Heat are doing it right recently, since they've been the team winning.[/QUOTE]
Correct there's no right way to build. Things aren't cut and dry tho, people look into how things are formed. Superstars joining up to win is pretty shady and pretty ugly for the sport. Having 3/4 of the #1 overall picks while not as bad because the Cavaliers didn't intend for it to happen still gives them the "spoiled" image.
There's a reason why people who don't even follow basketball hated the Heat before they even had success, or when they lost in the finals. NFL fans, NHL fans heck any sport fans mock the Heat and there's a reason for it. Cleveland walking away with 3/4 1st overall picks will be mocked and laughed at just like it would be in ANY sport. Just like it would be with a person who won the real lottery 3 times.
If they win it'll be like yeah there suppose to tho, just like it is with Miami. Not to the same degree obviously because draft picks are known. When they lose they'll be laughed at more so than a normal team, just like Miami. It's human nature. Just like kids born into trust funds are mocked :oldlol:
[QUOTE=Myth]The point is, being gifted a player happens. Being gifted the whole core of a team just takes away a challenge that makes it fun to root for a team. Thunder was gifted Durant, but they made smart selections outside of that. Spurs were gifted Duncan back in the day, but the rest of their core was made from wise decisions. Much easier rooting for rosters that weren't completely gifted to a franchise IMO.[/QUOTE]
...and the Cavs haven't been "gifted" anything close to a Durant or a Duncan. That's the point you seem to be missing.
Also, I'll point out to you that this Spurs dynasty actually involved [I][B]TWO [/B][/I]No. 1 picks, both of which were clearly the best in their draft classes and HOF players (Robinson/Duncan).
Root for whomever you choose. I'm sure you would have turned against the Blazers if they got lucky a few times in the lottery. Why would you root for the Cavs anyway?
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]People are insane.
[/QUOTE]
Not really. I've watched the exact same thing happen in another sport and the reactions were exactly the same. It'll fade away soon enough and if the Cavs fail people will make a joke out of it and if they succeed people will act less impressed.
It'll be like a waaaaaaaay smaller version of the Miami situation.
If I was in your position I wouldn't care, but I wouldn't act surprised or think people were crazy when they were like that's bullshit :confusedshrug:
[QUOTE=NuggetsFan]Not really. I've watched the exact same thing happen in another sport and the reactions were exactly the same. It'll fade away soon enough and if the Cavs fail people will make a joke out of it and if they succeed people will act less impressed.
It'll be like a waaaaaaaay smaller version of the Miami situation.
If I was in your position I wouldn't care, but I wouldn't act surprised or think people were crazy when they were like that's bullshit :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
Even comparing this to the Miami situation on a much smaller scale is just crazy.
I don't follow hockey, so I'm not qualified to comment on what kind of talent was available in the drafts they won... but am I to believe that the strength of the draft doesn't matter and that "just winning" should be enough to create a dynasty?
What if you happen to get a bunch of high picks in drafts that just aren't very good? Because, that's sort of what has happened with the Cavs, at least prior to this coming draft (we'll see how it goes)... certainly last year and arguably in 2011 when Derrick Williams, Enes Kanter, Tristan Thompson, Jonas Valanciunas, Jan Vesely, Bismack Biyombo, Brandon Knight, Kemba Walker and Jimmer Fredette were 9 of the first 10 picks.
There isn't a single franchise-changing talent among that group... Not one. A bunch of role players at best, scrubs at worst. And last year was 10x worse.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]...and the Cavs haven't been "gifted" anything close to a Durant or a Duncan. That's the point you seem to be missing.
Also, I'll point out to you that this Spurs dynasty actually involved [I][B]TWO [/B][/I]No. 1 picks, both of which were clearly the best in their draft classes and HOF players (Robinson/Duncan).
Root for whomever you choose. I'm sure you would have turned against the Blazers if they got lucky a few times in the lottery. Why would you root for the Cavs anyway?[/QUOTE]
I'm not missing that point. My point is that they should be "a" top team. They may not have a Durant or Duncan, but they have certainly been gifted an opportunity that should put them over a majority of the league. And although they didn't get gifted a player of that caliber, they are consistently getting all the opportunity in the world to make a powerhouse team, while all of the other teams in the draft are getting the scraps.
Really? You have to go all the way back to the 80s to track the success of the Spurs? Spurs have been just as successful (more successful really) after Robinson retired, so it is kind of pointless even mentioning him. For the last decade, Spurs have been successful with 1 gifted player that they successfully built around.
Of course I wouldn't turn against the Blazers, and I don't expect you to turn against your Cavs. I would count my blessings that we got 3 #1 picks in 4 years, but I'd like to think I would understand how other fans would have a hard time rooting for my team rather than getting defensive about it.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack] certainly last year and arguably in 2011 when Derrick Williams, Enes Kanter, Tristan Thompson, Jonas Valanciunas, Jan Vesely, Bismack Biyombo, Brandon Knight, Kemba Walker and Jimmer Fredette were 9 of the first 10 picks.[/QUOTE]
What you just listed in the 2011 year is what I mean by scraps. Yes, Irving is no Durant or Duncan, but he is heads and tails above the scraps, so why are the Cavs still in the lottery (in the East) lucking out into #1 picks. Last year wasn't great, but the Cavs also f*cked up bad and that is their own fault.
Free SPK.
[QUOTE=Myth]I'm not missing that point. My point is that they should be "a" top team. They may not have a Durant or Duncan, but they have certainly been gifted an opportunity that should put them over a majority of the league. And although they didn't get gifted a player of that caliber, they are consistently getting all the opportunity in the world to make a powerhouse team, while all of the other teams in the draft are getting the scraps.
Really? You have to go all the way back to the 80s to track the success of the Spurs? Spurs have been just as successful (more successful really) after Robinson retired, so it is kind of pointless even mentioning him. For the last decade, Spurs have been successful with 1 gifted player that they successfully built around.
Of course I wouldn't turn against the Blazers, and I don't expect you to turn against your Cavs. I would count my blessings that we got 3 #1 picks in 4 years, but I'd like to think I would understand how other fans would have a hard time rooting for my team rather than getting defensive about it.[/QUOTE]you clearly are missing the point or just have no clue to begin with.
[QUOTE=Myth]I'm not missing that point. My point is that they should be "a" top team. They may not have a Durant or Duncan, but they have certainly been gifted an opportunity that should put them over a majority of the league. And although they didn't get gifted a player of that caliber, they are consistently getting all the opportunity in the world to make a powerhouse team, while all of the other teams in the draft are getting the scraps.
Really? You have to go all the way back to the 80s to track the success of the Spurs? Spurs have been just as successful (more successful really) after Robinson retired, so it is kind of pointless even mentioning him. For the last decade, Spurs have been successful with 1 gifted player that they successfully built around.
Of course I wouldn't turn against the Blazers, and I don't expect you to turn against your Cavs. I would count my blessings that we got 3 #1 picks in 4 years, but I'd like to think I would understand how other fans would have a hard time rooting for my team rather than getting defensive about it.[/QUOTE]
Robinson played through 2003 and his rookie season was 1990. Yeah, I think he deserves mentioning, especially since he was a big part of two of their four championship teams.
The Robinson draft was the beginning of that franchise's turnaround from irrelevant to top notch. I'm not saying they aren't brilliant in other aspects... they are. But, luck always plays a role in a dynasty like the one they've created and they lucked into two of the best and most obvious No. 1 picks in the modern era.
Our luck has been different... more plentiful in a shorter span of time, but without the individual impact of a Duncan/Robinson.
Listen, a lot of people hated the Cavs and Cleveland prior to this, so I'm assuming not much is going to change. But, I do think it's ridiculous that any success will now be open season for mocking when one LeBron or one Duncan can be more valuable than all the picks we've accumulated combined.
[QUOTE=Myth]What you just listed in the 2011 year is what I mean by scraps. Yes, Irving is no Durant or Duncan, but he is heads and tails above the scraps, so why are the Cavs still in the lottery (in the East) lucking out into #1 picks. Last year wasn't great, but the Cavs also f*cked up bad and that is their own fault.[/QUOTE]
Completely off-topic, but I don't think they "f#cking up bad." Bennett still has a lot of upside and he showed something when he was given the opportunity. That may still turn out to be a decent pick in a bad draft.
And, again, the Irving pick shouldn't even be brought up in this conversation which is why I left him out of that list... The Cavs acquired him with exactly the kind of heady trade you'd be praising the Spurs or OKC for.
[QUOTE]Even comparing this to the Miami situation on a much smaller scale is just crazy.
[/QUOTE]
It is but I can't think of a better comparison. There the same in the sense that I bet Cleveland catches heat if they fail to do anything, and if they succeed will get people being like whatever. Not trolls or idiots or people just on msg but just in general. Doesn't make them "crazy" it's just a natural reaction. Completely different from Miami I guess and probably a bad comparison.
[QUOTE]I don't follow hockey, so I'm not qualified to comment on what kind of talent was available in the drafts they won... but am I to believe that the strength of the draft doesn't matter and that "just winning" should be enough to create a dynasty?[/QUOTE]
The situation with the hockey team is actually kinda similar to the Cavs in terms of there drafts. Different sport tho, individuals have less of an impact. I only used it as an example because they won the lottery a bunch of times and still get clowned for it and catch heat. It's actually strangely similar how much it's been close to that :lol
Strength of the draft matters but at the end of the day the FIRST overall pick is going to side step that. Your talking about the pick of the litter. How do you think what your saying affects the teams that were worse off than Cleveland yet didn't get the first stab at the talent? When you get the 1st overall pick expectations come with it, expectations are apart of everything.
[QUOTE]What if you happen to get a bunch of high picks in drafts that just aren't very good? Because, that's sort of what has happened with the Cavs, at least prior to this coming draft (we'll see how it goes)... certainly last year and arguably in 2011 when Derrick Williams, Enes Kanter, Tristan Thompson, Jonas Valanciunas, Jan Vesely, Bismack Biyombo, Brandon Knight, Kemba Walker and Jimmer Fredette were 9 of the first 10 picks.[/QUOTE]
I mean this draft looks pretty elite at the top. Irving while at the time wasn't hyped as such I think outside of the truly game changing guys is the next best thing. If you can't grab a LeBron James, Dwayne Wade, MJ, Duncan, Durant etc. than I think when all said and done Kyrie is in that next tier.
[QUOTE]There isn't a single franchise-changing talent among that group... Not one. A bunch of role players at best, scrubs at worst. And last year was 10x worse.
[/QUOTE]
I'm not even saying it's completely fair. At this point I'm not that annoyed with it. I deff was being abit of a troll originally. Just that no matter the strength of the draft when a team gets the 1st overall pick 3/4 drafts it's without question bullshit. Bad for the NBA. Nobody wants to see that. If the pick was 2nd or 3rd there would be far less of a shit storm and it wouldn't stay in people's minds as long. 3 years from now if the Cavs make the finals 3 first overall picks sticks out. 3rd overall, 2nd overall than 1st doesn't as much.
[QUOTE=El Gato Negro]you clearly are missing the point or just have no clue to begin with.[/QUOTE]
How am I missing my own f*cking point? I came in here and made a claim about why I think I will have a hard time rooting for them, and people got defensive. I keep being thrown the "but we didn't get a Durant or Duncan" point, which is irrelevant to my original point.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]
And, again, the Irving pick shouldn't even be brought up in this conversation which is why I left him out of that list... The Cavs acquired him with exactly the kind of heady trade you'd be praising the Spurs or OKC for.[/QUOTE]
And despite getting a #1 pick (good for them on that trade), they lucked into 2 #1 picks. The issue isn't that they got 1 #1 pick, it is that AFTER having a quality #1 pick, they still are getting #1 pick after #1 pick. A team shouldn't need that much luck to succeed when they already have pieces to build around, but the Cavs couldn't drag their sorry asses into the East playoffs despite a more than adequate roster, and then they luck into the 3rd 1st.
[QUOTE=Myth]How am I missing my own f*cking point? I came in here and made a claim about why I think I will have a hard time rooting for them, and people got defensive. I keep being thrown the "but we didn't get a Durant or Duncan" point, which is irrelevant to my original point.[/QUOTE]
Not to mention Duncan and Robinson were how many drafts apart? Robinson being on the backside of his career when Duncan was getting started. Wasn't he like 35 during the 2nd championship? ... Spurs later consisting of late round steals in Manu/Tony Parker.
Cavaliers just ripped off 3 1st overalls in 4 years. Robinson was drafted 1st overall in 86' the Spurs made the playoffs and than he got hurt and the Spurs "kept him out" which BTW gets mentioned by fans too and drafted Duncan in 1997.
[QUOTE=Myth]How am I missing my own f*cking point? I came in here and made a claim about why I think I will have a hard time rooting for them, and people got defensive. I keep being thrown the "but we didn't get a Durant or Duncan" point, which is irrelevant to my original point.[/QUOTE]
You have no point other than i hate Cleveland. The cavs havnt missed on draft picks they have plenty of cap space, expiring contracts for trades and loads of future picks including three first rounders next year. they havnt messed up anywhere other than coaching and have been very unlucky to get high draft picks in shit draft classes. those the facts not the force fed ish/espn bs.