Darrell Griffith. The first "modern" guard?

Same with the Oakley video yesterday:

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=340010[/url]

... im bored waiting for the finals to start so im back at this....but the idea for it came from a topic some time ago. I was told once that while there were really good athletes in the 80s it was just the big names. The Jordans, Niques, Drexlers and so on. That they were it. Guy literally told me "You keep mentioning the same guys. They were athletic. But they were it!" which kinda floored me. There were lots of guys people today just forgot about or never knew about to begin with.

DG is one.....

First:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEAJOF2CdQ0[/url]


Darrell.....why id call him arguably the first "modern" guard....not to me for the record...but far as what many modern fans see as modern traits?


This is a 6'3'' combo guard with a 40+ inch vertical, a great 3 point shot he isnt afraid to use(He shot more 3s one season than all but 5 whole teams), one of the first players with a modern crossover, hes doing Ft line dunks, 360s, gambling in passing lanes then throwing down reverse dunks to get the crowd going. He was perhaps the first guy anyone had to say "Stop shooting threes! Go to the basket! Youre the best athlete in basketball you idiot!" to.

He shot so many pullup threes, stop on a dime jumpers, and fadeaways he somehow shot UNDER 3 fts a game some years of his prime despite being one of the most gifted attackers of all time.

If Jr Smith went to college and learned to play a bit more under control he would be something like DG. Just taller. He was about Westbrooks size. 6'3'' or so but wanting to be called 6'4''.

He was everything the modern super athlete combo guard is.

Eye popping athletic ability, head scratching shot selection(or so complained some of the league....), and concerns that his team isnt quiiiiite what it could be if it had a more traditional guard.

Despite what all this may suggest my point isnt how great he was....but how great he wasnt. And why thats funny to me.

For years here ive read that if such and such went back they would...blah blah blah. Some athletic guard who would own the league.

Yet here we have a guy jumping out the gym, with modern handles, a beautiful jumper, balls to spare...

Here he is making a 30 foot game winner:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJOiYyQKQnU[/url]

Hes going around the back to beat MJ for a layup at full speed, doing putback dunks over 7 footers,and whipping behind the back passes on a dime on the break in traffic.

Hes pretty much a really athletic star guard from today dropped into the league 35 years ago.

And this....id assume...god among men....

Isnt even a star.

He was ROY and all rookie first team. Then nothing.

Never an all star. Never all NBA. Little fanfare except from people who remember him from college.

This guy has the total modern package. He was NBA age in 1978. He played the same people guys like John Havlicek played. Jerry West, Rick Barry, and Tiny Archibald gave plenty of guys the business who were still hanging around guarding the likes of Darrell. He missed Jerry West by 6 years. Earl Monroe was an 18ppg player in 78. He faced the same people past his prime Dg fared no better against at his peak.

I suspect Darrell might actually be better today. He was getting his 3s off the dribble. And he was one of the only ones looking to do it. He didnt have the floor spread ball whipping around looking to find someone spot up open. You can see in the video he gets the tipoff and sprints up an f takes a pullup 3.

It wasnt really in the offense. He just did it anyway.

Im not sure what would keep him from being a higher level scorer now than he was 30 years ago. Hed be taking 6 threes a game and attacking guys who cant touch him.

I bet transported into 2008 in his rookie form hes a star by now. And hed be the kind people would probably say didnt exist in the late 70s/early 80s and would own the league.

I wonder how many guys like him are lost to time. Hes one of the most spectacular players ever and there is next to no good footage of him anywhere.

No wonder Paul Westphal cant get his due respect. People barely saved Darrell Griffith looking like Rose/Westbrook. Who saves film of good fundamentals and gritty defense?

But Paul Westphal was all NBA first team...over Magic Johnson..all star over DG...a lot of freaks. But nobody will ever look at his picture or highlights and say he could be anything today.

I gotta think something was there....we just dont have much on film to prove it.

A lot of 70s/80s greats will never get their due respect. And people will keep acting like the great players were limited to a short list of people everyone knows...but ill try to do my part.

Guys like Darrell were out there.

And people even less famous than him....who were considered better.

[B]Good stuff. Loved the vid. Some very valid points you made there.

Darrell Griffith, I tell ya, dude could fly, many reports claim he had a 48'' vertical, that's one of the highest if not the highest in NBA history... He didn't have big hands though, if he did have (while even being a bit taller) he'd easily be much more well known nowadays and he'd be pulling some of the very best dunks in history, but like you've said, he also wasn't the player that a Jordan, a Nique or a Dr J were.. not even that close.
People can check some Jazz games during those days, what impressed me even more than his dunks or layups, were the lift he would imprint when he contested shots or during rebounds:

[IMG]http://hellinthehall.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/griffith-2831818849_ca5e52e6a1.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.straitpinkie.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/griff2.jpg[/IMG]

Yea I guess when you look at the overall athleticism, the moves he pulled, the shot-selection and the IQ.. you can say he was one of the 1st "modern guards" (I don't really like that expression but whatever). World B Free is another great example of that, also got Michael Cooper when it comes to 3&D players, even though he was actually more than that with the passing/playmaking/ballhandling and his D was simply incredible.

Off the top I wouldn't have guessed that Griffith was never an all-star... Goes to show that athleticism and flashiness isn't remotely close to being everything, and Darrell was also very skilled. Furthermore, I can see him being a star in today's league, easily.. Then you'd have some dudes claiming he'd completely destroy the league in past eras :oldlol:

You got lots of ignorant people thinking they know it all though. Speaking all those cliches about athleticism when they don't even know more than a dozen of players from back in the day. There are numerous examples of really athletic players from back then that would still be really athletic now (and they didn't have all the "advancements" you can think of), lots of them that weren't even viewed as much, at all, back in the day.....

Orlando Woolridge was built like stone

[IMG]http://www.bloomberg.com/image/iqDXia48_9T0.jpg[/IMG]

... an athletic freak capable of stuff like this: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ-CH_dHw8Q[/url]
Plenty of skill too.. I bet plenty people don't even know who he is, and he was never viewed as all that back in the day, never an all-star as well.

This is 6'10 Larry Nance:

[IMG]http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0902/nba.dunk.contest.winners/images/1984-larry-nance.jpg[/IMG]

athletic beast, used to posterize players all the time, skilled and all-around.. Guess he must've been MVP back in the day :confusedshrug:

Speaking of Nance, look at what Michael Cooper did vs him on a fastbreak:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7K-oa2bDFY&t=1m17s[/url]
Dude that could do that and completely shut down your best scorer (1-3), underrate some of those defensive players though. Check out Bobby Jones too, if you see his picture you'd probably call him just another tall white guy, you see him on the court jumping, running, and playing defense, you'd be like :eek:

Look at ****ing Darryl "Chocolate Thunder" Dawkins, who was already playing in the 70's.. 6'11 w/o shoes, 260 lbs of muscle, big hands, long arms, athletic monster:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sYJ2ItXiRo[/url]
And that ***** had some solid post-moves while being able to hit the outside jumper.. One of the best centers in the league, if not the best??? No, not even close.

Sleepy Floyd was crossing people up all the time, you don't hear his name much nowadays, even when it comes to that.
Phil Ford was pulling some of the best 360's layups ever, in the late 70's, most don't know who he is:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIlYHq4SE0M[/url]

Ralph Sampson was doing this in college: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0YUN4DBIgo[/url]
7'3 with plenty of skill, on the perimeter too.. Guess he just arrived in the league and became the best :rolleyes:

Somebody explain to me how come 6'10, very athletic Cliff Robinson, dude who won defensive honors in the 00's, was getting murked by an old, overweight Larry Bird with little mobility left, due to career ending injuries (after surgeries)?? Or how Bird was better than Erving or Wilkins and destroyed them more than the other way around??
Or how come Pete Maravich, who leaves everybody in awe and was doing your favorite's player signature move way back in the day, was never better, or viewed as better than Jerry West? Or David Thompson for that matter, an athletic freak with lots of skill.

Glad you brought up Paul Westphal, he's extremely underrated. Plenty of people would look at him and say stuff like "this white dude would be roasted in today's league", when players like those mentioned before were never considered as good as him (I won't even bring up players like Nash or Dragic).
pulling a 360 in OT during game5 of the Finals:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-RX1B_tF5c&t=8m41s[/url]
he had terrific touch around the rim with both hands, great finisher:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsJG5ek5fkI&t=0m50s[/url]
very athletic too:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsJG5ek5fkI&t=24m27s[/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsJG5ek5fkI&t=33m8s[/url]
played D:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsJG5ek5fkI&t=9m58s[/url]
Could shoot, score, pass... Guess he'd just be viewed as another "white stiff", nowadays.....


[/B]

Amazing vid, amazing choice music... and what an athlete. A walking highlight reel...

Great post, Shaq. Especially your Westphal mention brought to my memory that HORSE competition that took place somewhere in 1977 and its Final would feature Westphal and Maravich, both deceptively athletic and masters at making trick shots, but Westphal got injured and the matchup never happened...

I have more to say about the post above and will do that after I get dinner....but ill ask now...

In your clip of Cooper blocking Nance...you notice in the next clip he blocks a DG dunk?

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]I have more to say about the post above and will do that after I get dinner....but ill ask now...

In your clip of Cooper blocking Nance...you notice in the next clip he blocks a DG dunk?[/QUOTE]

[B]Yup, Coop had lots of sick fastbreak blocks, just :bowdown: Plenty of times he didn't even block it from the behind (chase-down style), he'd run fast af, found the right angle then just stepped in front of the opponent and proceded to block him straight up. I mean, it was an extremely tough task to block someone like Nance or Griffith, without being a poster, while he was coming at ya, let alone on a fastbreak coming up from behind.

[/B]

[QUOTE=Psileas]Great post, Shaq. Especially your Westphal mention brought to my memory that HORSE competition that took place somewhere in 1977 and its Final would feature Westphal and Maravich, both deceptively athletic and masters at making trick shots, but Westphal got injured and the matchup never happened...[/QUOTE]

[B]Thanks.
Yea seen some HORSE games from Pistol, one with Westphal too I believe, that matchup would've been very entertaining, no doubt. Paul is very overlooked.[/B]

In before "he would be just a avg athlete in todays league":oldlol:

Jesus that's one hell of an arc on his jumper :applause:

Nice, Griffith would be an all-star today,.

But, the first modern guard to me, is DAVID THOMPSON.

ok cool thread really earl monroe the first modern guard

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Nice, Griffith would be an all-star today,.

But, the first modern guard to me, is DAVID THOMPSON.[/QUOTE]

I agree! In terms of the first freak athlete scoring machine two guard who truly played above the rim and great scoring skillset, Thompson was the first in my book. Before that, the great two guards were guys like West, Monroe, Pete, Sam Jones, Greer, etc. Usually great athletes who played above the rim with style and freak athletic ability were forwards like Baylor, Hawkins, and Gus Johnson. So Thompson totally revolutionized the backcourt and paved the way in ways for 6'3 to 6'4 guards like Wade, Rose, Westbrook, and Griffith. As well as bigger SG's such as MJ, Drexler, Kobe, Vince, and T-Mac.

But Griffith was underrated and was the next guy after Thompson in my book for that style. Awesome to watch and surprised he never made an All Star team. However, Griffith was likely (unless I'm mistaken) the first superstar freak athlete SG who was dunking like crazy in college! Remember that the dunk was banned when Thompson was at NC State.

[QUOTE=houston]ok cool thread really earl monroe the first modern guard[/QUOTE]

In terms of the shake and bake dribbling and dominant scoring in one, The Pearl was THE first modern guard in that sense. He was And 1 before And 1. He had the total package of scoring in spades! Epic slashing, epic midrange, and even epic in the post as well.

Great post as usual! Most NBA fans don't know him but he was an athletic beast. He would be one of the most athletic players nowadays if he's placed in today's NBA.

And while we are at it NO GUARD combined dominant shooting-scoring, passing, and handles with flair like Pistol Pete. The guys kind of similar are Steph Curry, Nash, or Mark Price. But Pete was doing it at 6'5! Even to this day, nobody does it better than Pete in that sense! And the Iceman was the first big SG at 6'7 or 6'8 and up with epic slashing, midrange, postup game, and athletic ability in one.

[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT][B]Good stuff. Loved the vid. Some very valid points you made there.

Darrell Griffith, I tell ya, dude could fly, many reports claim he had a 48'' vertical, that's one of the highest if not the highest in NBA history... He didn't have big hands though, if he did have (while even being a bit taller) he'd easily be much more well known nowadays and he'd be pulling some of the very best dunks in history, but like you've said, he also wasn't the player that a Jordan, a Nique or a Dr J were.. not even that close.
People can check some Jazz games during those days, what impressed me even more than his dunks or layups, were the lift he would imprint when he contested shots or during rebounds:

[IMG]http://hellinthehall.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/griffith-2831818849_ca5e52e6a1.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.straitpinkie.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/griff2.jpg[/IMG]

Yea I guess when you look at the overall athleticism, the moves he pulled, the shot-selection and the IQ.. you can say he was one of the 1st "modern guards" (I don't really like that expression but whatever). World B Free is another great example of that, also got Michael Cooper when it comes to 3&D players, even though he was actually more than that with the passing/playmaking/ballhandling and his D was simply incredible.

Off the top I wouldn't have guessed that Griffith was never an all-star... Goes to show that athleticism and flashiness isn't remotely close to being everything, and Darrell was also very skilled. Furthermore, I can see him being a star in today's league, easily.. Then you'd have some dudes claiming he'd completely destroy the league in past eras :oldlol:

You got lots of ignorant people thinking they know it all though. Speaking all those cliches about athleticism when they don't even know more than a dozen of players from back in the day. There are numerous examples of really athletic players from back then that would still be really athletic now (and they didn't have all the "advancements" you can think of), lots of them that weren't even viewed as much, at all, back in the day.....

Orlando Woolridge was built like stone

[IMG]http://www.bloomberg.com/image/iqDXia48_9T0.jpg[/IMG]

... an athletic freak capable of stuff like this: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ-CH_dHw8Q[/url]
Plenty of skill too.. I bet plenty people don't even know who he is, and he was never viewed as all that back in the day, never an all-star as well.

This is 6'10 Larry Nance:

[IMG]http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0902/nba.dunk.contest.winners/images/1984-larry-nance.jpg[/IMG]

athletic beast, used to posterize players all the time, skilled and all-around.. Guess he must've been MVP back in the day :confusedshrug:

Speaking of Nance, look at what Michael Cooper did vs him on a fastbreak:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7K-oa2bDFY&t=1m17s[/url]
Dude that could do that and completely shut down your best scorer (1-3), underrate some of those defensive players though. Check out Bobby Jones too, if you see his picture you'd probably call him just another tall white guy, you see him on the court jumping, running, and playing defense, you'd be like :eek:

Look at ****ing Darryl "Chocolate Thunder" Dawkins, who was already playing in the 70's.. 6'11 w/o shoes, 260 lbs of muscle, big hands, long arms, athletic monster:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sYJ2ItXiRo[/url]
And that ***** had some solid post-moves while being able to hit the outside jumper.. One of the best centers in the league, if not the best??? No, not even close.

Sleepy Floyd was crossing people up all the time, you don't hear his name much nowadays, even when it comes to that.
Phil Ford was pulling some of the best 360's layups ever, in the late 70's, most don't know who he is:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIlYHq4SE0M[/url]

Ralph Sampson was doing this in college: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0YUN4DBIgo[/url]
7'3 with plenty of skill, on the perimeter too.. Guess he just arrived in the league and became the best :rolleyes:

Somebody explain to me how come 6'10, very athletic Cliff Robinson, dude who won defensive honors in the 00's, was getting murked by an old, overweight Larry Bird with little mobility left, due to career ending injuries (after surgeries)?? Or how Bird was better than Erving or Wilkins and destroyed them more than the other way around??
Or how come Pete Maravich, who leaves everybody in awe and was doing your favorite's player signature move way back in the day, was never better, or viewed as better than Jerry West? Or David Thompson for that matter, an athletic freak with lots of skill.

Glad you brought up Paul Westphal, he's extremely underrated. Plenty of people would look at him and say stuff like "this white dude would be roasted in today's league", when players like those mentioned before were never considered as good as him (I won't even bring up players like Nash or Dragic).
pulling a 360 in OT during game5 of the Finals:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-RX1B_tF5c&t=8m41s[/url]
he had terrific touch around the rim with both hands, great finisher:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsJG5ek5fkI&t=0m50s[/url]
very athletic too:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsJG5ek5fkI&t=24m27s[/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsJG5ek5fkI&t=33m8s[/url]
played D:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsJG5ek5fkI&t=9m58s[/url]
Could shoot, score, pass... Guess he'd just be viewed as another "white stiff", nowadays.....


[/B][/QUOTE]

:applause:

[QUOTE=bizil]I agree! In terms of the first freak athlete scoring machine two guard who truly played above the rim and great scoring skillset, Thompson was the first in my book. Before that, the great two guards were guys like West, Monroe, Pete, Sam Jones, Greer, etc. Usually great athletes who played above the rim with style and freak athletic ability were forwards like Baylor, Hawkins, and Gus Johnson. So Thompson totally revolutionized the backcourt and paved the way in ways for 6'3 to 6'4 guards like Wade, Rose, Westbrook, and Griffith. As well as bigger SG's such as MJ, Drexler, Kobe, Vince, and T-Mac.

But Griffith was underrated and was the next guy after Thompson in my book for that style. Awesome to watch and surprised he never made an All Star team. However, Griffith was likely (unless I'm mistaken) the first superstar freak athlete SG who was dunking like crazy in college! Remember that the dunk was banned when Thompson was at NC State.[/QUOTE]

[B]Actually, going by that notion I can recall Randy Smith, not as well known nor as good as a David Thompson but he was cut from the same cloth and playing already back in 1972.[/B]


[QUOTE=bizil]And while we are at it NO GUARD combined dominant shooting-scoring, passing, and handles with flair like Pistol Pete. The guys kind of similar are Steph Curry, Nash, or Mark Price. But Pete was doing it at 6'5! Even to this day, nobody does it better than Pete in that sense! And the Iceman was the first big SG at 6'7 or 6'8 and up with epic slashing, midrange, postup game, and athletic ability in one.[/QUOTE]

[B]Well said[/B]

[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT][B]Actually, going by that notion I can recall Randy Smith, not as well known nor as good as a David Thompson but he was cut from the same cloth and playing already back in 1972.[/B]




[B]Well said[/B][/QUOTE]

Great call on Randy Smith! I think u are right that he wasn't as well known but that's was still a very good observation!

Curious as to what yall see as a difference between Griff and David Thompson??? They were very similar but Griff did do more things in the air. I think of modern PG's only D Rose does as much in the air as Griff. Great post Kblaze and stellar video. I think most of the guys mentioned here are moreso the modern day athletic guard tweeners. The biggest difference of before and after with a PG's is Earl Monroe - with his penetrating, big times scoring and such he was probably the first tweener - Archibald after him, followed by Calvin Murphy. Still aren't that many tweeners or super athletic point guards in the league now.

[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT][B]Good stuff. Loved the vid. Some very valid points you made there.

Darrell Griffith, I tell ya, dude could fly, many reports claim he had a 48'' vertical, that's one of the highest if not the highest in NBA history... He didn't have big hands though, if he did have (while even being a bit taller) he'd easily be much more well known nowadays and he'd be pulling some of the very best dunks in history, but like you've said, he also wasn't the player that a Jordan, a Nique or a Dr J were.. not even that close.
People can check some Jazz games during those days, what impressed me even more than his dunks or layups, were the lift he would imprint when he contested shots or during rebounds:

[IMG]http://hellinthehall.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/griffith-2831818849_ca5e52e6a1.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.straitpinkie.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/griff2.jpg[/IMG]

Yea I guess when you look at the overall athleticism, the moves he pulled, the shot-selection and the IQ.. you can say he was one of the 1st "modern guards" (I don't really like that expression but whatever). World B Free is another great example of that, also got Michael Cooper when it comes to 3&D players, even though he was actually more than that with the passing/playmaking/ballhandling and his D was simply incredible.

Off the top I wouldn't have guessed that Griffith was never an all-star... Goes to show that athleticism and flashiness isn't remotely close to being everything, and Darrell was also very skilled. Furthermore, I can see him being a star in today's league, easily.. Then you'd have some dudes claiming he'd completely destroy the league in past eras :oldlol:

You got lots of ignorant people thinking they know it all though. Speaking all those cliches about athleticism when they don't even know more than a dozen of players from back in the day. There are numerous examples of really athletic players from back then that would still be really athletic now (and they didn't have all the "advancements" you can think of), lots of them that weren't even viewed as much, at all, back in the day.....

Orlando Woolridge was built like stone

[IMG]http://www.bloomberg.com/image/iqDXia48_9T0.jpg[/IMG]

... an athletic freak capable of stuff like this: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ-CH_dHw8Q[/url]
Plenty of skill too.. I bet plenty people don't even know who he is, and he was never viewed as all that back in the day, never an all-star as well.

This is 6'10 Larry Nance:

[IMG]http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0902/nba.dunk.contest.winners/images/1984-larry-nance.jpg[/IMG]

athletic beast, used to posterize players all the time, skilled and all-around.. Guess he must've been MVP back in the day :confusedshrug:

Speaking of Nance, look at what Michael Cooper did vs him on a fastbreak:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7K-oa2bDFY&t=1m17s[/url]
Dude that could do that and completely shut down your best scorer (1-3), underrate some of those defensive players though. Check out Bobby Jones too, if you see his picture you'd probably call him just another tall white guy, you see him on the court jumping, running, and playing defense, you'd be like :eek:

Look at ****ing Darryl "Chocolate Thunder" Dawkins, who was already playing in the 70's.. 6'11 w/o shoes, 260 lbs of muscle, big hands, long arms, athletic monster:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sYJ2ItXiRo[/url]
And that ***** had some solid post-moves while being able to hit the outside jumper.. One of the best centers in the league, if not the best??? No, not even close.

Sleepy Floyd was crossing people up all the time, you don't hear his name much nowadays, even when it comes to that.
Phil Ford was pulling some of the best 360's layups ever, in the late 70's, most don't know who he is:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIlYHq4SE0M[/url]

Ralph Sampson was doing this in college: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0YUN4DBIgo[/url]
7'3 with plenty of skill, on the perimeter too.. Guess he just arrived in the league and became the best :rolleyes:

Somebody explain to me how come 6'10, very athletic Cliff Robinson, dude who won defensive honors in the 00's, was getting murked by an old, overweight Larry Bird with little mobility left, due to career ending injuries (after surgeries)?? Or how Bird was better than Erving or Wilkins and destroyed them more than the other way around??
Or how come Pete Maravich, who leaves everybody in awe and was doing your favorite's player signature move way back in the day, was never better, or viewed as better than Jerry West? Or David Thompson for that matter, an athletic freak with lots of skill.

Glad you brought up Paul Westphal, he's extremely underrated. Plenty of people would look at him and say stuff like "this white dude would be roasted in today's league", when players like those mentioned before were never considered as good as him (I won't even bring up players like Nash or Dragic).
pulling a 360 in OT during game5 of the Finals:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-RX1B_tF5c&t=8m41s[/url]
he had terrific touch around the rim with both hands, great finisher:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsJG5ek5fkI&t=0m50s[/url]
very athletic too:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsJG5ek5fkI&t=24m27s[/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsJG5ek5fkI&t=33m8s[/url]
played D:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsJG5ek5fkI&t=9m58s[/url]
Could shoot, score, pass... Guess he'd just be viewed as another "white stiff", nowadays.....
[/B][/QUOTE]
Great Post.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Curious as to what yall see as a difference between Griff and David Thompson??? They were very similar but Griff did do more things in the air. I think of modern PG's only D Rose does as much in the air as Griff. Great post Kblaze and stellar video. I think most of the guys mentioned here are moreso the modern day athletic guard tweeners. The biggest difference of before and after with a PG's is Earl Monroe - with his penetrating, big times scoring and such he was probably the first tweener - Archibald after him, followed by Calvin Murphy. Still aren't that many tweeners or super athletic point guards in the league now.[/QUOTE]

I agree! I think Griffith was actually the better dunker than Thompson. As u said, I think Griffith was great off one or two feet. While Thompson was known mainly for two foot hops. I think Thompson of course was epic and in my mind the original superstar freak athlete SG. With Thompson it was about his dominant scoring in general in addition to his hops. Griff while a very good scorer was never on Thompson's level in that regard. But Griff exploited the three pointers way more than Thompson did, making him a unique threat.

I also agree that even today, there aren't that many freak athlete PG's in the L. U have Westbrook and D-Rose and I believe that's it. Even historically, u can throw in KJ, Penny, Baron Davis, Steve Francis, maybe and that might be it. U have guys with great speed and good hops. But not many who really could dominate over the top of a defense with a true aerial assault that consists of dunks and layups.

Skills and bball IQ beats athleticism.

Today we`re presented too many And One highlight vids etc, som focus on basics is kind of lost.

Kevin McHale would be a monster i today`s NBA etc.

[IMG]http://hellinthehall.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/scrapbook-griff-jumping-over-polish-player.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]with modern handles[/quote]

Ball handling was one of his weaknesses. Probably why he wasn't driving to the hole. Got better as he aged as did his D.

[QUOTE]Isnt even a star.

He was ROY and all rookie first team. Then nothing.

Never an all star. Never all NBA. Little fanfare except from people who remember him from college.[/QUOTE]

He held out for more money got injured and lost his job to their 3rd string white stiff at his peak and they never forgave him for wanting to get paid. Sad really. Bobby Hansen. :facepalm

[QUOTE]Im not sure what would keep him from being a higher level scorer now than he was 30 years ago.[/QUOTE]

Playing with someone like Adrian Dantley maybe? They were one of the highest scoring duos if not the highest at the time.

[QUOTE]there is next to no good footage of him anywhere.

No wonder Paul Westphal cant get his due respect. People barely daved Darrell Griffith looking like Rose/Westbrook. Who saves film of good fundamentals and gritty defense?[/QUOTE]

If memory serves there were only about 20 local broadcasts of the Jazz when he came into the league.

[QUOTE]But Griffith was underrated and was the next guy after Thompson in my book for that style.[/QUOTE]

Could Thompson shoot the 3 in the ABA? Griffith was the early record holder.

[QUOTE]I think Griffith was actually the better dunker than Thompson. As u said, I think Griffith was great off one or two feet. [/QUOTE]

couldn't palm the ball though

He and MJ had some epic battles.

When I said first modern guard I didnt mean first with the ability of modern guards....I mean the first who played like it. David Thompson was a beast and clearly better than DG. But the first 2 questions asked of a guard today...can he shoot and how athletic is he.

Could Thompson shoot?

All who saw him agree he could shoot his ass off.

Do modern fans mean 15-18 footers when they ask if you can shoot?

Unless its Lebron and a chance to ignore that hes been wetting threes since 19...

No.

I dont like it but thats not what people mean anymore.

Darrell was the first guy with the great athletic ability who also stepped outside often. He may have been the best dunker in the NBA while also shooting more threes than almost every team. You know the NBA is just NBa jam now. Layup/dunk or three.

Darrell might be the only guy from his time who wouldnt need to make any adjustment at all to todays game. He would walk out and take 9 threes first game, pump fake a couple, and bang on a center, and look like he was born in 1990.

Plenty of others from then could shoot. Few combined the 3 and slashing ability which really marks the modern guard.

Doesnt mean David Thompson wasnt better then and wouldnt be better now. He just wouldnt look like everyone else right away. He would look like a lighter Wade.

DG would look and play in such a way you wouldnt even know he came from 35 years ago.

Thanks for the vid. I honestly had never heard of this guy, as noted he wasn't a star and before my time.

He almost becme a big part of Celtic history. I remember astory on Red trying to con the Jazz into taking Mchale #2 so he could take DG 3rd in that draft where they traded for Parish and the #3. He wanted to have the 80s Celtics be Bird, Darrell, and Parish. Which makes sense considering Bird already played a lot of 4, they had Maxwell too, and had just picked up Parish. They had a loaded frontcourt. DG was gonna be the missing piece to put next to Tiny.

Archibald
DG
Bird
Maxwell
Parish

I bet they win the 81 title without Mchale. He put up 9ppg that year in the playoffs. Darrell was better their first few years and Mchale was a 6th man till what....86?

History would be quite different if Red had his way. Red had to settle and end up bringing Mchale off the bench...but seems it worked out.

Found n old SI article on him...seems the ABA offered him a couple million to skip college and jump straight to the pros. He played pickup ball vs the Kentucky Colonels after school and they told the league how good he was...but he turned it down.

Also...

[QUOTE]Jazz Coach Tom Nissalke likes to tell about his first meeting with Griffith, which occurred a month before the NBA draft. "Here was the best college player in the country," says Nissalke. "We were warned about how much money it would cost us to sign him, but when we went to talk to him he was such a little boy. He asked what our uniforms looked like, if we really traveled first class on planes, whether or not we said a prayer before games. Hell, we never talked about money. He never asked how much he would play or gave any indication of having a big head at all. That's why I was sure he was the player we wanted, and that we would get him signed."[/QUOTE]


Here is a bit on Red trying to play the Jazz:


[QUOTE]"If you want to name one reason—one reason—why the Jazz are so much better, it's got to be Darrell Griffith," says broadcaster Hot Rod Hundley. "He's great, and I'm the guy who believes there hasn't been a great guard in this league since Oscar, Cousy and West retired. In your face, Red Auerbach!"

In your face, indeed. The Boston general manager could have had Griffith if he hadn't traded the first pick in the college draft to Golden State for Robert Parish and the Warriors' first-round choice, the third in the draft. Auerbach figured the Warriors would take Purdue's Joe Barry Carroll and that Utah, picking No. 2, would draft Minnesota's Kevin McHale. Cagey Red would then take Griffith. At least this seemed to be what Auerbach wanted when he talked to Jazz General Manager Frank Layden.

"Red kept calling me up, saying, 'I know you're going to take McHale. He's terrific. You can't pass up a big center,' " recalls Layden. "I kept telling him we wanted Griffith, even before Red traded his first pick away. He must have thought I was bluffing. In my wildest dreams I can't see why Boston did not keep the No. 1 choice and take Griffith."[/QUOTE]


But on Wikipedia it says Red was calling GMs talking up DG hoping he went 1-2 so he could get Mchale.

Who knows what happened....one thing is clear though.

If I were a rival GM I wouldnt take Reds calls. Hes sure to **** me and make me look bad in history.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]When I said first modern guard I didnt mean first with the ability of modern guards....I mean the first who played like it. David Thompson was a beast and clearly better than DG. But the first 2 questions asked of a guard today...can he shoot and how athletic is he.

Could Thompson shoot?

All who saw him agree he could shoot his ass off.

Do modern fans mean 15-18 footers when they ask if you can shoot?

Unless its Lebron and a chance to ignore that hes been wetting threes since 19...

No.

I dont like it but thats not what people mean anymore.

Darrell was the first guy with the great athletic ability who also stepped outside often. He may have been the best dunker in the NBA while also shooting more threes than almost every team. You know the NBA is just NBa jam now. Layup/dunk or three.

Darrell might be the only guy from his time who wouldnt need to make any adjustment at all to todays game. He would walk out and take 9 threes first game, pump fake a couple, and bang on a center, and look like he was born in 1990.

Plenty of others from then could shoot. Few combined the 3 and slashing ability which really marks the modern guard.

Doesnt mean David Thompson wasnt better then and wouldnt be better now. He just wouldnt look like everyone else right away. He would look like a lighter Wade.

DG would look and play in such a way you wouldnt even know he came from 35 years ago.[/QUOTE]

I agree with u! That's why I said in my post that Griff exploited the three pointer more than Thompson did. Which means Griff was the first freakish athletic SG (which he was the next in line after Thompson anyway, at least among the guys who range from All-Star caliber to superstar caliber) who exploited the three pointer, which was instituted the year before he got in the L.

But there are still many freak athletes who don't exploit the three point line like Griff. Wade, Westbrook, Rose (the guys closer to Griff in size) I wouldn't consider the shooter that Griff was. So in a sense I still feel Thompson and Gervin (for big SG's and swingmen) for that matter have a case for the first modern guard as well. It's to vague just to say Griff is the first modern guard in general. If it's about saying Griff was the first modern guard 6'4 who combined very good shooting AND freakish athletic ability, I agree with u. SG's like Kobe, Vince, and T-Mac are similar in that regard, even though they are taller at 6'6 to 6'8. Or on a lesser level , a guy like JR Smith. Not many combined the shooting skill from deep and freak athletic ability in a package like Griff, even until this day, I will give him that.

[QUOTE=Xiao Yao You]Ball handling was one of his weaknesses. Probably why he wasn't driving to the hole. Got better as he aged as did his D.



He held out for more money got injured and lost his job to their 3rd string white stiff at his peak and they never forgave him for wanting to get paid. Sad really. Bobby Hansen. :facepalm



Playing with someone like Adrian Dantley maybe? They were one of the highest scoring duos if not the highest at the time.



If memory serves there were only about 20 local broadcasts of the Jazz when he came into the league.



Could Thompson shoot the 3 in the ABA? Griffith was the early record holder.



couldn't palm the ball though

He and MJ had some epic battles.[/QUOTE]


I said in my post Griff exploited the three ball way more than Thompson and THAT MADE HIM UNIQUE IN THAT SENSE! I said Griff was the first freak athlete who was a very good-to great three point shooter. But guards like Westbrook, Wade, and Rose are more similar to Thompson than Griff. Because even though they attempted more threes than Thompson, they aren't on Griff's level in terms of shooting. It'a about the EFFECTIVENESS of the shooting, not just putting up threes. I would consider Westbrook, Rose,and Wade guys who do the most damage inside the three point line, just like Thompson. Griff was on a different level of shooting. Actually the bigger SG's like Kobe, Carter, T-Mac, and to an extent JR Smith are more similar to Griff. Becasue that group are BETTER SHOOTERS than the guys similar to Griff in size like Wade, Westbrook, or Rose. I agreed with the post and gave Griff mad props. I was just pointing out that there are STILL many freak athletes who don't rely on the three as a great weapon. Even though they may shoot it, u CAN'T consider it a great weapon like it was for Griff.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Found n old SI article on him...seems the ABA offered him a couple million to skip college and jump straight to the pros. He played pickup ball vs the Kentucky Colonels after school and they told the league how good he was...but he turned it down.

Also...




Here is a bit on Red trying to play the Jazz:





But on Wikipedia it says Red was calling GMs talking up DG hoping he went 1-2 so he could get Mchale.

Who knows what happened....one thing is clear though.

If I were a rival GM I wouldnt take Reds calls. Hes sure to **** me and make me look bad in history.[/QUOTE]
I remember DG. Saw him too. KBlaze's analysis is spot on. He may indeed have been the first "modern" guard back them. Ironically, he was playing with a really "old school" type forward in Dantley, who at 6'5, and with basically no jumping ability whatsoever, liked to post up bigger guys, and was basically very successful.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]When I said first modern guard I didnt mean first with the ability of modern guards....I mean the first who played like it. David Thompson was a beast and clearly better than DG. But the first 2 questions asked of a guard today...can he shoot and how athletic is he.

Could Thompson shoot?

All who saw him agree he could shoot his ass off.

Do modern fans mean 15-18 footers when they ask if you can shoot?

Unless its Lebron and a chance to ignore that hes been wetting threes since 19...

No.

I dont like it but thats not what people mean anymore.

Darrell was the first guy with the great athletic ability who also stepped outside often. He may have been the best dunker in the NBA while also shooting more threes than almost every team. You know the NBA is just NBa jam now. Layup/dunk or three.

[B]Darrell might be the only guy from his time who wouldnt need to make any adjustment at all to todays game. He would walk out and take 9 threes first game, pump fake a couple, and bang on a center, and look like he was born in 1990.[/B]

Plenty of others from then could shoot. Few combined the 3 and slashing ability which really marks the modern guard.

Doesnt mean David Thompson wasnt better then and wouldnt be better now. He just wouldnt look like everyone else right away. He would look like a lighter Wade.

[B]DG would look and play in such a way you wouldnt even know he came from 35 years ago.[/B][/QUOTE]
Thanks Bizil and Kblaze for the answers.

I thought DT had a more will to get to the basket than DG had.

I see what you are saying now. It has become a shooting game. I'm sure they had great influence on the draft combines even today, tho I can't say a lot of guards come out Curry/Allen as far as shooting - you are right in that they do look at shooting mechanics and figure shooting will come along. I didn't see at first this was a question.

I scouted for a pretty big HS here - there is less talent discrepancy at that age and a four year projection is the key. The first questions we asked of smaller players or guard skilled players are can they run a team? What's their mental prowess like? Can they distribute the ball? Can they get where they want to? If no they are looked for as a combo guard. His scoring ability is looked at. His athletic/shooting qualities are definitely boosted in upping his potential. Of course the NBA is going to look at it a bit differently but at the same time the roles call for similar type of abilities.

I wouldn't call them the "first" but they are definitely modern.

David Thompson was the first guy who came to mind when i opened this thread. Athletic freak.

What L.Kizzle and tontoz said, David Thompson. Has been called the original Dwayne Wade. Too bad his career fell short to drugs.

I like Darrell Griffith too. Definitely an exciting player.

Griffith wasn't that great of a 3 point shooter. For his career he shot 33% and averaged less than 1 made 3 per game.

His careeer TS of 51% was pretty weak. He didn't get to the foul line much.

:applause:

He played when you could get benched for missing a 3.

He might take 200 when most teams would take 45-50 and half of those are buzzer beaters.

He wasnt standing in a corner waiting for someone to drive and kick. He was dribbling into threes because they were yet to be built into anyones offense.


You can see that he could shoot. And that video at the start was from 1982. He had only made 15 threes in his career before that. The 3 was just a year old when he got there.

He went from never having seen a 3 point line outside being an ABA fan in Kentucky to taking hundreds. He didnt grow up with it. He developed that shot in a couple off seasons.

In his first 3 seasons he shot 63/236 from 3. In the 82-83 season he shot 29% on 138 attempts.

He became a respectable 3 point shooter but by modern standards that's all he was. He was never great.

Too his credit he understood the value of the 3 point shot and tried to exploit it. He just wasnt that good of a shooter.

He only shot 71% from the foul line.

Nobody is talking about how great that video is. Amazing.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Nobody is talking about how great that video is. Amazing.[/QUOTE]


Personally i can't watch vids at work. Griffith was certainly a good source of highlights. But i think his actual production is getting a bit overrated in this thread.