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His statistics are clearly better than most players ever, and his playoff stats are equally ridiculous. It's kind of silly to me when people act like Jordan being amazing is some media driven narrative. Now I didn't watch him play, so I can't make the arguments many here can, but if you research his career, I don't see how you can't see a guy with probably the best case for GOAT or at least top 3-5.
Various trolls have various idols and so will say any kind of shit about other players to try and make some dumbass argument for their hero. And now you know.
[QUOTE]I don't see how you can't see a guy with probably the best case for GOAT or at least top 3-5.[/QUOTE]
Who doesn't have MJ in their top 5?
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Who doesn't have MJ in their top 5?[/QUOTE]
Nobody smart, but multiple ISH posters have left him out of their top 5
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Who doesn't have MJ in their top 5?[/QUOTE]
John Salley most recently said he doesn't... like 2013.
But I'm pretty sure it's clear he has agenda. He put guys like Kevin McHale and Isiah Thomas over him. I forgot his reasoning, but yeah... it's weird because he said he was GOAT before the last couple of years.
Anyone serious about them not thinking he is top 5?
There is a legitimate anti-MJ website out there and even the guy who runs it has MJ #5 all-time. [url]http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/index.htm[/url]
[QUOTE][B][U]#5) Michael Jordan[/U][/B]
Strengths: Dominating scorer. No one was better at creating his own shot. He could attack the basket, pull up for the mid-range jump shot, or post up with a fade away. Legendary clutch plays in the age of prime time televised game were etched in cement. Before his 1993 retirement, he was probably the best defensive guard at roaming the passing lanes and one of the two best on-the-ball defenders at the guard position (I prefer Joe Dumars, but Jordan is at his level). He drew lots of defensive attention and had the ability to hit the open man. He had a rare, if unhealthy, competitive streak, and he dominated 4th quarters line no one.
Weaknesses: He couldn't play with drive-and-dish point guards, which are on about 95% of the teams. He was too turnover-prone and selfish to play the point guard (according to two of his coaches). He couldn't turn the Bulls and Wizards around like others on this list turned their teams around. When he retired, his impact was less than than the others on this list. Even in college, his team only met their expectations when he played a supporting role. He was extremely selfish - fighting with coaches about his scoring role and teammates who believed his points were more important to him than titles. He never proved his teams could be a big winner without the triangle offense, showing a limited ability to blend his game with different players and systems. If he plays on a team full of scorers, and he HAS to be leading scorer, how is that going to help his team win?[/QUOTE]
So even an admitted MJ "hater" has him #5.
People who say Jordan is not the GOAT, is the same thing as people who still say the earth is flat.
because people get tired of the fact that a large amount of people don't understand that 6 finals and 6 finals MVP was also contributed to the fact that a perfect situation as well as him taking full advantage of it came along.
If they did, they'd think, oh, right, Bill Russell
and throwing KAJ at those who don't.
good luck with that.
I watched him play (more the 2nd 3-peat). And hand-to-heart he was spectacular. I believe he's the best slasher to ever play (admittedly haven't seen Dr. J or Nique). He really could get to the rim whenever he wanted to, and that's with handchecking and no defensive 3 second rule.
Just look at two possessions in a row here, at 7:50 (thk -smak for the link)
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu92R-UR12o[/url]
Lays it in around Hakeem first play. 2nd play he dekes out Maxell, and lays it in again, with Hakeem directly right in his chest. There no slashers since (NONE) that I've seen that can get to the basket at will like MJ (without sprinting and almost casually weaving around defenders).
Lol I'll be honest those drives around/over defenders wouldn't be possible if he didn't have massive hands. Phil Jackson DID say that those hands allowed him to manoeuvre in ways other players can't.
Dr. J didn't have MJ in his top 5. He had a whole bunch of old timers, guys who played before the 80's.
I think some of it is just the age of the poster. It is indicative of a larger problem, especially online of needing to elevate the current over the past. We get so caught up in the emotionalism of the moment that it clouds our judgment. We also enjoy feeling apart of something great so have a tendency to elevate things we have witnessed ourselves. This also works in reverse when people declare current things "the worst ever".
So for example people who saw Kobe and LeBron but were too young to watch Jordan play want to devalue Jordan. They do this in a couple ways. They either elevate Kobe or LeBron by just outright declaring them better or they argue that Jordan wasn't better than past players like Wilt or Russell in an attempt to bring Jordan back in the pack.
I'm not even saying you can't make an argument for other guys like Kareem (you can) as GOAT. But to say Jordan isn't top 3 is utterly ridiculous.
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Even in college, his team only met their expectations when he played a supporting role.[b] He was extremely selfish - fighting with coaches about his scoring role and teammates who believed his points were more important to him than titles. [/b]He never proved his teams could be a big winner without the triangle offense, showing a limited ability to blend his game with different players and systems. If he plays on a team full of scorers, and he HAS to be leading scorer, how is that going to help his team win?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that's true but that was more before PJ. He wouldn't trust his teammates and refused to pass. A coach told him before "There's no 'I' in team" and he replied with "There's an "I" in win," :oldlol:
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]He never proved his teams could be a big winner without the triangle offense, showing a limited ability to blend his game with different players and systems. If he plays on a team full of scorers, and he HAS to be leading scorer, how is that going to help his team win?[/QUOTE]
>That can't be held against him just because he was never put in a situation where he had to win with a different system.
And actually?
He has. :D Dream Team. He was the best player in their scrimmages-- and these weren't normal scrimmages AT ALL. :no: These 10 HOF'ers were brutally competitive and would go at each other foaming at the mouth. They refused to listen to Chuck Daly one time when he wanted to end practice because they wanted to see who would win.
And in the scrimmages/Olympic games it wasn't just Jordan hogging the ball either. It was just pure, perfect, simple basketball (albeit quicker and more efficient). Everybody doing the right cuts, passes, trusting each other. (Barkley ended up being lead scorer)
More than half the Dream Teamers have said that playing against each other was some of the most beautiful, best basketball they've ever played in their entire lives. :applause:
[QUOTE=KBaller33]Dr. J didn't have MJ in his top 5. He had a whole bunch of old timers, guys who played before the 80's.[/QUOTE]
He said his list was the same list he had when he was a teenager. So basically it was all based on nostalgia. Nothing wrong with that but it's not a list made with the brain, it's a list made with his 17 year old heart.
[QUOTE=KBaller33]Dr. J didn't have MJ in his top 5. He had a whole bunch of old timers, guys who played before the 80's.[/QUOTE]
In his defense he made the list way back when and never intended to change it.
[QUOTE=played0ut]In his defense he made the list way back when and never intended to change it.[/QUOTE]
It's so weird. Why would he never consider changing his list? It's like 40 years outdated :oldlol: Unless he meant his favorite players of all time.
[QUOTE=KBaller33]It's so weird. Why would he never consider changing his list? It's like 40 years outdated :oldlol: Unless he meant his favorite players of all time.[/QUOTE]
I think for him he treated it the way many do their favorite music. The music people fall in love with from 15-20 is often the music they think was the best when they're 50.
For him that was when he loved the game most, he probably associates that period with his coming of age as a man and a player. Like I said previously, it was a list based on nostalgia.
[QUOTE=KBaller33]It's so weird. Why would he never consider changing his list? It's like 40 years outdated :oldlol: Unless he meant his favorite players of all time.[/QUOTE]
People do it all the time. Im sure everyone in here when listing the best videogames, movies, or tv shows, will have something in there based on nostalgia and coming first more than actual merit.
[QUOTE=Sarcastic]People who say Jordan is not the GOAT, is the same thing as people who still say the earth is flat.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. There's nobody who has combined on-court dominance with championship results the way he has.
Yes, Bill Russell won 11, but an offensively dominant player beats a defensively dominant one every time.
Wilt didn't win enough.
Kareem is a center and didn't impact the game in as many ways.
Magic and Bird were surpassed by MJ over time.
Shaq was too lazy.
Timmy has gotten the most of what he is, and that's taken him to a top 10 career, but he still is what he is and isn't what he isn't.
Kobe was too selfish.
LeBron has too many holes in his resume.
Shall I continue?
MJ is, as his statue says, 'the best there ever was and the best there ever will be.'
[QUOTE=RRR3]His statistics are clearly better than most players ever, and his playoff stats are equally ridiculous. It's kind of silly to me when people act like Jordan being amazing is some media driven narrative. Now I didn't watch him play, so I can't make the arguments many here can, but if you research his career, I don't see how you can't see a guy with probably the best case for GOAT or at least top 3-5.[/QUOTE]
You mean his statistics born out of the context of high pace offenses in an era of leaguewide defensive inefficiency.
:confusedshrug:
The fact that stating this simple truth will ruffle the feathers of Jordan mythologists just goes to show you the power of his media driven narrative that thrived unchecked for so long.
The notion that MJ>>>>>anyone else is part of why there is a backlash against him...that and other mythology surrounding him, i.e. he won by himself and the non-stop media hype--even all these years later. :lol
[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot][B]You mean his statistics born out of the context of high pace offenses in an era of leaguewide defensive inefficiency. [/B]
:confusedshrug:
The fact that stating this simple truth will ruffle the feathers of Jordan mythologists just goes to show you the power of his media driven narrative that thrived unchecked for so long.[/QUOTE]
.... are you sure their feathers weren't 'ruffled' because your point is terrible?
[img]http://www.narutoforums.com/images/smilies/series2/funone3kk.gif[/img]
Yeah, the league has evolved and changed. But to nitpick to argue against rankings? If I wanted to I could spin any 'simply truth' against any era too!
Just like you're doing.
Here, watch:
>Shooters pre-79 did not have the opportunity of a 3 point line-- today's league scoring records are inflated and downplay the scoring capabilities of pre-79 players.
>Today's league favours quicker guards with the removal of hand-check and enables easier scoring due to 3 second defensive rule (which is ****ing retarded to me btw). Ergo you need to adjust (lower) Lebron's/Wade's/Rose/Westbrook's FG% to reflect the change.
Dude... the nitpicking. [img]http://www.narutoforums.com/images/smilies/series2/funone3kk.gif[/img]
[QUOTE=played0ut]
>Today's league favours quicker guards with the removal of hand-check and enables easier scoring due to 3 second defensive rule (which is ****ing retarded to me btw). Ergo you need to adjust [B]Lebron's/Wade's/Rose/Westbrook[/B]'s FG% to reflect the change.
[/QUOTE]
Lebron, Wade, Rose, and Westbrook have completely different FG%.
[QUOTE=navy]Lebron, Wade, Rose, and Westbrook have completely different FG%.[/QUOTE]
Lol i'm picking slashers to make a point about open lanes. Their actual FG%, whatever it is isn't the issue here.
MJ is not only the GOAT basketball player but maybe the greatest sport athlete in history.
[QUOTE=played0ut]Lol i'm picking slashers to make a point about open lanes. Their actual FG%, whatever it is isn't the issue here.[/QUOTE]
LeBron is a far better shooter than the other three
[QUOTE=played0ut].... are you sure their feathers weren't 'ruffled' because your point is terrible?
[img]http://www.narutoforums.com/images/smilies/series2/funone3kk.gif[/img]
Yeah, the league has evolved and changed. But to nitpick to argue against rankings? If I wanted to I could spin any 'simply truth' against any era too!
Just like you're doing.
Here, watch:
>Shooters pre-79 did not have the opportunity of a 3 point line-- today's league scoring records are inflated and downplay the scoring capabilities of pre-79 players.
>Today's league favours quicker guards with the removal of hand-check and enables easier scoring due to 3 second defensive rule (which is ****ing retarded to me btw). Ergo you need to adjust (lower) Lebron's/Wade's/Rose/Westbrook's FG% to reflect the change.
Dude... the nitpicking. [img]http://www.narutoforums.com/images/smilies/series2/funone3kk.gif[/img][/QUOTE]
Naruto forums?
:facepalm
[QUOTE=played0ut]Lol i'm picking slashers to make a point about open lanes. Their actual FG%, whatever it is isn't the issue here.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but you didnt really make a point. Lebron and Wade have higher or similar FG from slashing to Jordan and Rose and Westbrook have lower percentages.
[QUOTE=navy]Yeah, but you didnt really make a point. Lebron and Wade have higher or similar FG from slashing than Jordan and Rose and Westbrook have lower percentages.[/QUOTE]
I did. You just missed it.
He's saying Jordan's stats are only high because of his era's high pace/defense
i.e, his PPG adjusted would be -2PPG
If i go by his reasoning,
I'm saying Rose/Westbrook/Wade/Lebron's FG% are only high, due to open lanes/no hand check enabling easier slashing
i.e, each of their FG% would be .02% - .08% lower, depending on how often they slash
[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Naruto forums?
:facepalm[/QUOTE]
and?
Are you going somewhere with this or are you just wasting bandwidth
[QUOTE=jrong]MJ is, as his statue says, 'the best there ever was and the best there ever will be.'[/QUOTE]
you know how I know you're a dinosaur?
Anti-MJ trolls often say that Jordan faced weak competition and weak athletes.
They don't realize that Jordan played against Kobe, Duncan and Shaq who were still dominating well into the 2000s. LMAO
Well most of these trolls were teens anyway so I'll give them a pass.
[QUOTE=Sarcastic]People who say Jordan is not the GOAT, is the same thing as people who still say the earth is flat.[/QUOTE]
Game. Set. Match.
I don't know how you can discredit...
10 Scoring titles
5 MVPs
1xDPOY
6/6 Rings and 6 FMVPs
14x All Star
10x All NBA 1st team
9x All D 1st team
2x Olympic Gold Medal
NCAA National Champion
[QUOTE=jrong][B]Exactly. There's nobody who has combined on-court dominance with championship results the way he has.
Yes, Bill Russell won 11, but an offensively dominant player beats a defensively dominant one every time.
Wilt didn't win enough.
Kareem is a center and didn't impact the game in as many ways.[/B]
Magic and Bird were surpassed by MJ over time.
Shaq was too lazy.
Timmy has gotten the most of what he is, and that's taken him to a top 10 career, but he still is what he is and isn't what he isn't.
Kobe was too selfish.
LeBron has too many holes in his resume.
Shall I continue?
MJ is, as his statue says, 'the best there ever was and the best there ever will be.'[/QUOTE]
Maybe, but there's also nobody whose combination of dominance and winning matches Russell's either or Kareem's or even Wilt's, despite the relatively few titles. The point is, there is no reason to believe that, beyond a doubt, Jordan's combination has to be the best there ever was. It is up there, but how exactly can someone prove that this is the best?
If an offensively dominant player beats a defensively dominant one every time, shouldn't this be the case with Wilt vs Russell, as well?
And I disagree that Kareem didn't impact the game as much, except if you add media promotion and fame. They changed the rules to hinder his dominance in the NCAA - and still failed miserably, since only a fool would believe that banning the dunk would have a wide effect on a player that talented. He was as all-around a center as there ever was, led the league in 4 different categories (and was very good at his position in 2 more), you could trust him to take the last shot or even the last FT's.
Jordan did a lot of stuff no one else did... just look below at the [I]Top 15 Hanging Jumpshots by MJ[/I]... who else does that?
[URL="http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40750321#p40750321"]Top 15 Hanging Jumpshots by MJ[/URL]
[URL="http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40414797#p40414797"]Top 15 MJ Dunks Over Multiple Contesting Defenders[/URL]
[URL="http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40382395#p40382395"]Partial Collection of MJ Dunks Over All-Time Great Centers[/URL]
People just forget the things he used to do that made him go 6 for 6, etc, etc - they think it was luck or something.
[QUOTE=Psileas]Maybe, but there's also nobody whose combination of dominance and winning matches Russell's either or Kareem's or even Wilt's, despite the relatively few titles. [B]The point is, there is no reason to believe that, beyond a doubt, Jordan's combination has to be the best there ever was. It is up there, but how exactly can someone prove that this is the best?[/B]
[/QUOTE]
People's GOAT lists are partly subjective based on whichever aspect of the game they value more
It's part of the stupid hipster culture that kids think makes them unique, when in actuality it just makes them stupid. It's goes basically like this.
Make any kind of generic statement that most people agree upon, ie: The Beatles Were A Great Band (just a random example). They will them take that and run it like this:
Stage 1: Denial - The Beatles? I never heard of them, why's this guy so enthusiastic abouth. Doesn't he know enthusiasm is totally uncool now?
Stage 2: Retarded Rationalization - LOL, the Beatles couldn't even hear themselves play live, so basically they were just lip syncing all the time. Overrated.
Stage 3: Full Retard Mode - The Beatles weren't even that great. I can name 100 bands better today. They just sucked.
[IMG]http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/24/9b/ae/249baef1852eedf252887ff855895b57.jpg[/IMG]
That and Jordan takes the brunt of frustration from angry LeBron/Kobe stans. They can't blame their own guy and they can't deal with failure. So they need someone to blame, and Jordan's career is so lilly perfect that it drives them crazy, it's unfair to them, so they take shots at it and try to rationalize it in their mind (ie: he couldn't have been that good, no one could be that good, it has to be ESPN that created him ... yes ... yes that makes sense in my brain).
Granted Kobe-Stans have chilled out over the last two years and become a lot more humble. At least compared to before. In 5 years Bran Stans will be in the same place getting hounded by Wiggins Stans or whoever the new hot sh*t is.
[QUOTE=deja vu]Anti-MJ trolls often say that Jordan faced weak competition and weak athletes.
They don't realize that Jordan played against Kobe, Duncan and Shaq who were still dominating well into the 2000s. LMAO
Well most of these trolls were teens anyway so I'll give them a pass.[/QUOTE]
While its not true that he faced weak competition and weak athletes (the talent base is more or less the same nowadays), its definitely not true he was dominating Kobe, Duncan, and Shaq in the 2000s. In his wizard days Jordan was pretty much just chucking it up
[QUOTE=Kvnzhangyay]While its not true that he faced weak competition and weak athletes (the talent base is more or less the same nowadays), its definitely not true he was dominating Kobe, Duncan, and Shaq in the 2000s. In his wizard days Jordan was pretty much just chucking it up[/QUOTE]
Jordan played in the greatest big man era ever ... Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, DRob, Zo, Mutombo, etc. etc. If Jordan didn't play in that era it would be known as the era of the bigs, but his success just overshadowed everything else.
[QUOTE=Soundwave]It's part of the stupid hipster culture that kids think makes them unique, when in actuality it just makes them stupid. It's goes basically like this.
Make any kind of generic statement that most people agree upon, ie: The Beatles Were A Great Band (just a random example). They will them take that and run it like this:
Stage 1: Denial - The Beatles? I never heard of them, why's this guy so enthusiastic abouth. Doesn't he know enthusiasm is totally uncool now?
Stage 2: Retarded Rationalization - LOL, the Beatles couldn't even hear themselves play live, so basically they were just lip syncing all the time. Overrated.
Stage 3: Full Retard Mode - The Beatles weren't even that great. I can name 100 bands better today. They just sucked.
[IMG]http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/24/9b/ae/249baef1852eedf252887ff855895b57.jpg[/IMG]
That and Jordan takes the brunt of frustration from angry LeBron/Kobe stans. They can't blame their own guy and they can't deal with failure. So they need someone to blame, and Jordan's career is so lilly perfect that it drives them crazy, it's unfair to them, so they take shots at it and try to rationalize it in their mind (ie: he couldn't have been that good, no one could be that good, it has to be ESPN that created him ... yes ... yes that makes sense in my brain).
Granted Kobe-Stans have chilled out over the last two years and become a lot more humble. At least compared to before. In 5 years Bran Stans will be in the same place getting hounded by Wiggins Stans or whoever the new hot sh*t is.[/QUOTE]
:applause:
Repped for the effort in this post.
It sums it up totally. We are just old fools that know nothing :rolleyes: