SF Comparison: 2014 vs. 1990

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[U][B][SIZE="4"]Starting SF's with Minimum 15.0 PER[/SIZE][/B][/U]:


[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR][B][U]2014[/U][/B][COLOR="White"].................................[/COLOR][B][U]1990[/U][/B]

Lebron James*...................... Larry Bird*
Kevin Durant*....................... Dominique Wilkins*
Carmelo Anthony*................. Scottie Pippen*
Kawhi Leonard...................... James Worthy*
Gordon Hayward................... Chris Mullin*
Paul Pierce*......................... Bernard King*
Trevor Ariza......................... Alex English*
Andre Iguodala..................... Adrian Dantley*
Nicholas Batum..................... Derrick McKey
Luol Deng............................ Reggie Lewis
Josh Smith........................... Orlando Woolridge
Chandler Parsons.................. Mark Aguirre
Rudy Gay............................ Jerome Kersey or [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374199][u]DPOY [B]SF[/B][/u][/url] Dennis Rodman

HOF (*)
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Wow, sensational thread but LeBron >> Jordan so your argument is invalid

Where's lebron? Jr Smith? ?

[QUOTE=HylianNightmare]Where's lebron? Jr Smith? ?[/QUOTE]
I went by positional listings in bballref.

Lebron and Melo started at PF most of the year, so they were listed as PF's..

If we were going to do a comparison of bigs instead, we'd see that the 2014 bigs match up reasonably well depth-wise, but have a clear deficit to the 1990 bigs in offensive skill and scoring production - today's game produces a lot of non-shot-creating bigs whose only job is to dunk/finish plays and move their feet well defensively, so the 2014 bigs need the extra boost from Lebron and Melo tbh.
.

I'm surprised the SG Comparison thread has more comments, because even though the 1990 advantage at SG is significant, it's the SF's where 1990 has an absolutely mammoth advantage - 8 HOF'ers in their prime or very close to it.

[QUOTE=3ball].
[U][B][SIZE="4"]Starting SF's with Minimum 15.0 PER[/SIZE][/B][/U] (positions based on bballref):


(lists not ranked in any kind of order - only loosely matched up player-to-player for easier comparison)


[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR][B][U]2014[/U][/B][COLOR="White"].................................[/COLOR][B][U]1990[/U][/B]

Kevin Durant.................... Larry Bird*
Paul George..................... Dominique Wilkins*
Kawhi Leonard................. James Worthy*
Nicholas Batum................ Scottie Pippen*
Gordon Hayward.............. Chris Mullin*
Rudy Gay........................ Bernard King*
Trevor Ariza.................... Alex English*
Andre Iguodala................ Adrian Dantley*
JR Smith......................... Derrick McKey
Luol Deng....................... Reggie Lewis
Josh Smith...................... Orlando Woolridge
Chandler Parsons............. Mark Aguirre
Shawn Marion.................. Jerome Kersey


The first eight SF's listed in the 1990 column are HOF (*).
.[/QUOTE]
Honestly, I don't see one guy from 2014 that I'd take over 1990.

:confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=3ball]Honestly, I don't see one guy from 2014 that I'd take over 1990.

:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

dats cuz u setting the match ups. aint nobody consider bron a damn PF.

bron>bird
durant>nique
george>worthy

[QUOTE=3ball]Honestly, I don't see one guy from 2014 that I'd take over 1990.

:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]


It's disingenuous to not include Carmelo and Lebron honestly. And I'd take LeBron and KD over pretty much everyone in 1990, and Carmelo over most.

May not be popular around here but I think KD is so much better than Pippen it isn't remotely close. Sure Pippen may be the "greater" player due to rings and accolades, but he dreams he could have ever been close to the player KD is. Let's be real LeBron and KD would win too many rings playing with the GOAT.

Bird is the only 1990s guy I take over Bron and KD.

[QUOTE=oarabbus]It's disingenuous to not include Carmelo and Lebron honestly. And I'd take LeBron and KD over pretty much everyone in 1990, and Carmelo over most.

May not be popular around here but I think KD is so much better than Pippen and it isn't remotely close. Bird is the only 1990s guy I take over Bron and KD.[/QUOTE]

1990 bird ain't no joke, but he aint touchin bron or kd last year.

[QUOTE=oarabbus]It's disingenuous [/QUOTE]
As is everything this guy post.

Par for the course.

[QUOTE=yungtyrekeevans]dats cuz u setting the match ups. aint nobody consider bron a damn PF.

bron>bird
durant>nique
george>worthy[/QUOTE]
Okay, so Lebron started at PF all year, but now when it suits a lebron fan, he is no longer a PF..

If we are giving positions to anyone we want, I'll make Barkely a SF... or Kemp a SF..

Both eras can play those kinds of games... But the positions are based on the position that player played throughout the year according to bballref...

[QUOTE=3ball]Okay, so Lebron started at PF all year, but now when it suits a lebron fan, he is no longer a PF..

If we are giving positions to anyone we want, I'll make Barkely a SF... or Kemp a SF..

Both eras can play those kinds of games... But the positions are based on the position that player played throughout the year according to bballref...[/QUOTE]

u tell ppl dat brons a pf and they gonna tell u dat u lost ya damn mind.

carmelo a pf too? u aint all there in da head bruh.

[QUOTE=oarabbus]It's disingenuous to not include Carmelo and Lebron honestly. And I'd take LeBron and KD over pretty much everyone in 1990, and Carmelo over most.

Bird is the only 1990s guy I take over Bron and KD.[/QUOTE]
It's not disingenuous - that is the position he played all year... these lists are based on the positions listed in bballref... you want me to break the rules just for Lebron???... Why am I not surprised?

It's disingenuous for you to want Lebron to be a PF when it suits you, and then have him be a SF when it doesn't.

I could arbitrarily move Barkely and Malone to SF too, but that isn't where they played... And the 1990 PF's would be fine without them too.

[QUOTE=yungtyrekeevans]u tell ppl dat brons a pf and they gonna tell u dat u lost ya damn mind.

carmelo a pf too? u aint all there in da head bruh.[/QUOTE]
this is the position they played all year!!!!... :banghead:

it's based on bballref's positions.

everyone knows that the league has gotten smaller and these guys play PF now... it's just the way it is... weak.. ahem.. SMALL ball you guys call it i believe.

[QUOTE=3ball]It's not disingenuous - that is the position he played all year... these lists are based on the positions listed in bballref... you want me to break the rules just for Lebron???... Why am I not surprised?

It's disingenuous for you to want Lebron to be a PF when it suits you, and then have him be a SF when it doesn't.

I could arbitrarily move Barkely and Malone to SF too, but that isn't where they played... And the 1990 PF's would be fine without them too.[/QUOTE]


Take a look at how Barkley and Malone played, then how LeBron and Durant play. I also call Duncan a C, rather than a PF, even though he's listed according to Bball ref as a PF.

Because he plays like a C, even when he's listed as PF next to Splitter.

[QUOTE=oarabbus]Take a look at how Barkley and Malone played, then how LeBron and Durant play. I also call Duncan a C, rather than a PF, even though he's listed according to Bball ref as a PF.

Because he plays like a C, even when he's listed as PF next to Splitter.[/QUOTE]
It's wouldn't be a fair or objective to go through every player and do a [I]subjective[/I] analysis of how they play.

I have to go with the information bballref puts out.. which IS accurate and based on the position that player started at all year... I can't cherry-pick here and there or that reduces the integrity of the analysis..

The list in the OP includes all the starters with over a 15.0 PER... I think these are feasible and fair parameters to get a good idea about the quality of SF's in a given era.
.

[QUOTE=3ball]I can't go through every player and do a subjective analysis of how they play.

I have to go with the information bballref puts out.. which IS accurate and based on the position that player started at all year... I can't cherry-pick here and there or that reduces the integrity of the analysis..

The list in the OP includes all the starters with over a 15.0 PER... I think these are feasible and fair parameters to get a good idea about the quality of SF's in a given era.[/QUOTE]


Ok bro, well KD is still the second or best SF listed :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=oarabbus]Ok bro, well KD is still the second or best SF listed :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
that's cool... when i said that i wouldn't take any guy from 2014, I was just making a point.. if someone DID want to take a guy or two from 2014 - that's totally fine... in spite of that, 2014 is still getting crushed..

:confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=3ball]It's wouldn't be a fair or objective to go through every player and do a [I]subjective[/I] analysis of how they play.

I have to go with the information bballref puts out.. which IS accurate and based on the position that player started at all year... I can't cherry-pick here and there or that reduces the integrity of the analysis..

The list in the OP includes all the starters with over a 15.0 PER... I think these are feasible and fair parameters to get a good idea about the quality of SF's in a given era.
.[/QUOTE]
Actually bballref puts players in positions by heights as well...

[B]Here are the bigs from 1990 and 2014 that have go-to offensive capability... They must have true offensive skill where you can run offense through them.... They can't just be guys that finish plays (i.e. Ibaka, Tyson Chandler, etc.)
[/B]

[B][U]Go-To Centers[/U][/B]

[B]2014 Centers[/B] - Demarcus Cousins.. Brook Lopez.. Tim Duncan.. Pau Gasol.. Chris Bosh.. Marc Gasol.. Andrew Bogut.. Anthony Davis (although he mostly just finishes plays right now)

Total: 8


[B]1990 Centers[/B] - Robinson... Ewing... Olajuwon... Moses Malone... Robert Parish... Rik Smits... Vlade Divac.. Brad Daughtery... Sam Bowie... Rony Seikaly.

Total: 10



[B][U]Go-To Power Forwards[/U][/B]

[B]2014 PF's[/B] - Bron.. Melo.. Kevin Love... Nowitski... Aldridge... David Lee... Zach Randolph... Paul Milsap... David West.. Nene Hilario

Total: 10


[B]1990 PF's[/B] - Karl Malone.. Charles Barkely... Tom Chambers... Kevin McHale... Terry Cummings... Larry Nance... Roy Tarpley... Detlef Schrempf... Armen Gilliam... Danny Manning... Otis Thorpe.. Shawn Kemp.

Total: 12


[B]:confusedshrug: ... Clearly, if you take Lebron and Melo out of the PF category and put them in SF, there are only 8 PF's with real offensive games (and of course only 8 Centers).

ditto for the centers, where even a cursory glance shows vast inferiority in 2014 compared to 1990

the lower number of go-to bigs in 2014 is due to the spacing in today's game that reduces the need to score ON defenders as often, which produces a lot of [I][U]non-shot-creating bigs[/U][/I] whose only job is to dunk/finish plays and move their feet well defensively.
.[/B]

[QUOTE=3ball]This is untrue... BBallref does it 100% based on what position the player started at.

Duncan began starting at Center in 2007, so bballref reflects that... Lebron starts at PF because of small-ball and ballref reflects that.[/QUOTE]
Not really, because Battier was actually who Spolestra started at powerfoward last year.

[QUOTE=navy]Not really, because Battier was actually who Spolestra started at powerfoward last year.[/QUOTE]


This. You can't just not include LeBron at SF, or Carmelo. Today's SF flat out dominate the 90s.

[QUOTE=navy]Not really, because Battier was actually who Spolestra started at powerfoward last year.[/QUOTE]
Again, not true.. Battier hasn't been listed as a PF in any year of his career.

Lebron started at PF all year and Battier was the SF... this is common knowledge.

Let's say Lebron was still playing SF like he was in Cleveland.. It doesn't change anything - the 2014 SF's still get beat, and now the 2014 PF's get crushed worse than before.

No, actually anyone who watched Heat games knows the truth. This is why you cant just go by ballref, which I mentioned used heights.


Battier was more often then not matched up at the powerfoward postion whenever he started. Lebron was on the perimeter.

Postions arent as defined as they use to be, for obvious reasons. But history will look back and see Lebron James as a small forward despite whatever offense Spolestra was running. Same for Carmelo.

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[SIZE="3"][B][U]Starting SF's With at Least 15.0 PER[/U][/B][/SIZE]


(lists are only loosely matched up to see which era can match the other era player-for-player)


[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR][B][U]2014[/U][/B][COLOR="White"].................................[/COLOR][B][U]1990[/U][/B]

Lebron James*...................... Larry Bird*
Kevin Durant*....................... Dominique Wilkins*
Carmelo Anthony*................. James Worthy*
Paul George.......................... Scottie Pippen*
Gordon Hayward................... Chris Mullin*
Kawhi Leonard...................... Bernard King*
Trevor Ariza.......................... Alex English*
Andre Iguodala..................... Adrian Dantley*
Nicholas Batum..................... Derrick McKey
Luol Deng............................ Reggie Lewis
Josh Smith........................... Orlando Woolridge
Chandler Parsons.................. Mark Aguirre
Rudy Gay............................. Jerome Kersey


[B]1990 wins here, mainly because 2014 has too many role players - you can't compare [I]role players[/I] like Parsons, Leonard, Ariza, Iguodala, and Hayward to All-NBA Mark Aguirre, or HOF's Bernard King, Alex English, Adrian Dantley or Chris Mullin.[/B]
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[QUOTE=3ball]I went by positional listings in bballref.

Lebron and Melo started at PF most of the year, so they were listed as PF's..

If we were going to do a comparison of bigs instead, we'd see that the 2014 bigs match up reasonably well depth-wise, but have a clear deficit to the 1990 bigs in offensive skill and scoring production - today's game produces a lot of non-shot-creating bigs whose only job is to dunk/finish plays and move their feet well defensively, so the 2014 bigs need the extra boost from Lebron and Melo tbh.
.[/QUOTE]

2014 bigs have an offensive deficit...AND you're counting Bron and Melo as bigs?

those can't BOTH be true.

OP only left out Melo in an attempt to make it fair for that shtty 90s era:facepalm .

[QUOTE=GODbe]OP only left out Melo in an attempt to make it fair for that shtty 90s era:facepalm .[/QUOTE]
[B]Did you even read this post?.. Melo and Lebron are in there[/B]

[QUOTE=3ball]Based on bballref, which is the go-to source for these kinds of things, Lebron and Carmelo played PF last year - and clearly, the best way to do the analysis is to leave it like that..

Nonetheless...


[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR][B][U]2014[/U][/B][COLOR="White"].................................[/COLOR][B][U]1990[/U][/B]

Lebron James*...................... Larry Bird*
Kevin Durant*....................... Dominique Wilkins*
Carmelo Anthony*................. James Worthy*
Paul George.......................... Scottie Pippen*
Gordon Hayward................... Chris Mullin*
Kawhi Leonard...................... Bernard King*
Trevor Ariza.......................... Alex English*
Andre Iguodala..................... Adrian Dantley*
Nicholas Batum..................... Derrick McKey
Luol Deng............................ Reggie Lewis
Josh Smith........................... Orlando Woolridge
Chandler Parsons.................. Mark Aguirre
Rudy Gay............................. Jerome Kersey


[B]So even if you want to include Carmelo and Lebron, 2014 still loses - only three HOF for 2014 compared to eight for 1990... the first three spots are close, but everything else down the line goes to 1990... and now the PF's get destroyed even worse without Melo and Lebron.[/B][/QUOTE]

next level cherrypicking:lol

[QUOTE=Trollsmasher]

next level cherrypicking:lol

[/QUOTE]
[B]SPECIFICALLY HOW?..

I'm giving whatever concession posters want.

You want Lebron and Melo as SF's?.. No problem... see the previous post (posted again below) where I did just that... [/B]


[QUOTE=3ball]

[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR][B][U]2014 SF's[/U][/B][COLOR="White"].................................[/COLOR][B][U]1990 SF's[/U][/B]

Lebron James*...................... Larry Bird*
Kevin Durant*....................... Dominique Wilkins*
Carmelo Anthony*................. James Worthy*
Paul George.......................... Scottie Pippen*
Gordon Hayward................... Chris Mullin*
Kawhi Leonard...................... Bernard King*
Trevor Ariza.......................... Alex English*
Andre Iguodala..................... Adrian Dantley*
Nicholas Batum..................... Derrick McKey
Luol Deng............................ Reggie Lewis
Josh Smith........................... Orlando Woolridge
Chandler Parsons.................. Mark Aguirre
Rudy Gay............................. Jerome Kersey

HOF (*)

[/QUOTE]

[B]As you can see, although the first three spots are close, all the rest go to 1990... and 1990 beats 2014 in HOF by a score of 8 to 3.. it's not close...

And keep in mind that the bigs (PF's and Centers) for 2014 lack offense compared to 1990 even WITH Lebron and Melo as PF's, so by putting them in the SF category instead, it really decimates an already inferior cast of bigs.[/B]
.

It was leaning towards 2014 to begin with but after you added in Melo and others it's clear-cut now.

2014>>>>>>>>>90s and it's not close.:applause:

[QUOTE=GODbe]It was leaning towards 2014 to begin with but after you added in Melo and others it's clear-cut now.

2014>>>>>>>>>90s and it's not close.:applause:[/QUOTE]
:yaohappy:

you go with 3 the HOF team and i'll go with the 8 HOF team

[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]2014 bigs have an offensive deficit...AND you're counting Bron and Melo as bigs?

those can't BOTH be true.[/QUOTE]
[B]But it is true - Even if Lebron and Melo are included in the PF category, the 2014 bigs don't have as much offensive skill as 1990, because there just aren't AS MANY offensively skilled bigs in today's game.

Here are the bigs from 1990 and 2014 that have go-to offensive games... You have to be able to run offense through them and they must have true offensive skill... They can't just be guys that finish plays (i.e. Ibaka, Tyson Chandler, etc.)
[/B]

[B][U]Go-To Centers[/U][/B]

[B]2014 Centers[/B] - Demarcus Cousins.. Brook Lopez.. Tim Duncan.. Pau Gasol.. Chris Bosh.. Marc Gasol.. Andrew Bogut.. Anthony Davis (although he mostly just finishes plays right now)

Total: 8


[B]1990 Centers[/B] - Robinson... Ewing... Olajuwon... Moses Malone... Robert Parish... Rik Smits... Vlade Divac.. Brad Daughtery... Sam Bowie... Rony Seikaly.

Total: 10



[B][U]Go-To Power Forwards[/U][/B]

[B]2014 PF's[/B] - Bron.. Melo.. Kevin Love... Blake Griffin... Nowitski... Aldridge... David Lee... Zach Randolph... Paul Milsap... David West.. Nene Hilario

Total: 11


[B]1990 PF's[/B] - Karl Malone.. Charles Barkely... Tom Chambers... Kevin McHale... Terry Cummings... Larry Nance... Roy Tarpley... Detlef Schrempf... Armen Gilliam... Danny Manning... Otis Thorpe.. Shawn Kemp.

Total: 12


[B]:confusedshrug: ... Clearly, if you take Lebron and Melo out of the PF category and put them in SF, there are only 9 PF's with real offensive games (and of course only 8 Centers).

ditto for the centers, where even a cursory glance shows vast inferiority in 2014 compared to 1990

this is due to the spacing in today's game that reduces the need to score ON defenders as often, which produces a lot of [I][U]non-shot-creating bigs[/U][/I] whose only job is to dunk/finish plays and move their feet well defensively.
.[/B]

[QUOTE=3ball]Honestly, I don't see one guy from 2014 that I'd take over 1990.

:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

I'm quite confident Deng would kill Reggie Lewis.

[QUOTE=HurricaneKid]

I'm quite confident Deng would kill Reggie Lewis.

[/QUOTE]
that's interesting, because going by the [I]original[/I] list of SF's shown below (that use the player positions from bballref) that's the only matchup where i might take 2014 over 1990..

[QUOTE][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR][B][U]2014[/U][/B][COLOR="White"].................................[/COLOR][B][U]1990[/U][/B]

Kevin Durant.................... Larry Bird*
Paul George..................... Dominique Wilkins*
Kawhi Leonard................. James Worthy*
Nicholas Batum................ Scottie Pippen*
Gordon Hayward.............. Chris Mullin*
Rudy Gay........................ Bernard King*
Trevor Ariza.................... Alex English*
Andre Iguodala................ Adrian Dantley*
JR Smith......................... Derrick McKey
[B]Luol Deng..................... Reggie Lewis[/B]
Josh Smith...................... Orlando Woolridge
Chandler Parsons............. Mark Aguirre
Shawn Marion.................. Jerome Kersey

HOF (*)
[/QUOTE]

even then, i'd still go with lewis because he was very easily the better offensive player and he was known as a good defender... he did block jordan 4 times in one game.


using the lists shown below that included Lebron and Melo as SF's, 1990 still has the overall advantage, albiet not by the wide margin that the previous list showed..

[QUOTE=3ball]

[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR][B][U]2014 SF's[/U][/B][COLOR="White"].................................[/COLOR][B][U]1990 SF's[/U][/B]

Lebron James*...................... Larry Bird*
Kevin Durant*....................... Dominique Wilkins*
Carmelo Anthony*................. James Worthy*
Paul George.......................... Scottie Pippen*
Gordon Hayward................... Chris Mullin*
Kawhi Leonard...................... Bernard King*
Trevor Ariza.......................... Alex English*
Andre Iguodala..................... Adrian Dantley*
Nicholas Batum..................... Derrick McKey
Luol Deng............................ Reggie Lewis
Josh Smith........................... Orlando Woolridge
Chandler Parsons.................. Mark Aguirre
Rudy Gay............................. Jerome Kersey

HOF (*)
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=3ball]Based on bballref, which is the go-to source for these kinds of things, Lebron and Carmelo played PF last year - and clearly, the best way to do the analysis is to leave it like that..

Nonetheless...


[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR][B][U]2014[/U][/B][COLOR="White"].................................[/COLOR][B][U]1990[/U][/B]

Lebron James*...................... Larry Bird*
[B]Kevin Durant[/B]*....................... Dominique Wilkins*
[B]Carmelo Anthony[/B]*................. James Worthy*
Paul George.......................... [B]Scottie Pippen[/B]*
Gordon Hayward................... [B]Chris Mullin[/B]*
[B]Kawhi Leonard[/B]...................... Bernard King*
Trevor Ariza.......................... [B]Alex English[/B]*
[B]Andre Iguodala[/B]..................... Adrian Dantley*
[B]Nicholas Batum[/B]..................... Derrick McKey
Luol Deng............................ Reggie Lewis
Josh Smith........................... Orlando Woolridge
Chandler Parsons.................. [B]Mark Aguirre[/B]
[B]Rudy Gay.[/B]............................ Jerome Kersey


[B]So even if you want to include Carmelo and Lebron, 2014 still loses - only three HOF for 2014 compared to eight for 1990... the first three spots are close, but everything else down the line goes to 1990... and now the PF's get destroyed even worse without Melo and Lebron.[/B][/QUOTE]

I won't choose between Bird and Bron. I think Bird is superior, but obviously people will feel that way about Bron.

Yeah... it's not even close to a 1990s sweep as you're trying to make it.

[QUOTE=oarabbus]I won't choose between Bird and Bron. I think Bird is superior, but obviously people will feel that way about Bron.

Yeah... it's not even close to a 1990s sweep as you're trying to make it.[/QUOTE]

did you bold and say andre igudola was better than adrian dantley and that kawhi leonard was better than bernard king? :roll: :roll: :roll:

have you even heard of those players before?

i would also be hesitant to take kevin durant over 'nique simply because in no shape or form is durant going to beat those celtics and bulls and pistons teams.

[QUOTE=3ball][B]SPECIFICALLY HOW?..

I'm giving whatever concession posters want.

You want Lebron and Melo as SF's?.. No problem... see the previous post (posted again below) where I did just that... [/B]




[B]As you can see, although the first three spots are close, all the rest go to 1990... and 1990 beats 2014 in HOF by a score of 8 to 3.. it's not close...

And keep in mind that the bigs (PF's and Centers) for 2014 lack offense compared to 1990 even WITH Lebron and Melo as PF's, so by putting them in the SF category instead, it really decimates an already inferior cast of bigs.[/B]
.[/QUOTE]


Bigs lacking offense today? How?

Kevin Love
Blake Griffin
Demarcus Cousins
Brook Lopez
LaMarcus Aldridge
Dirk Nowitzki

and, for you:

Carmelo Anthony
LeBron James


that's great offensive talent right there. What you're trying to get at is today's crop of C's, which everyone knows is wack. But the PF position is looking pretty good with Davis, Love and Blake entering their primes in the near future.

SFs in 2014 take a huge dump on 1990 SFs

Melo, Bron, KD, George>

Sorry, 1990 Bird was not that great. This is bad back Bird we're talking about here. Not to mention this is a version of Pippen prior to his prime, too.

[QUOTE=PsychoBe]did you bold and say andre igudola was better than adrian dantley and that kawhi leonard was better than bernard king? :roll: :roll: :roll:

have you even heard of those players before?

i would also be hesitant to take kevin durant over 'nique simply because in no shape or form is durant going to beat those celtics and bulls and pistons teams.[/QUOTE]


Adrian Dantley was a one dimensional scorer, an exceptional one, but just a scorer. Iggy is one of the greatest defenders the game has ever seen, in fact he led the entire league in +/- last year. Warriors were a top 5 defense with him on the floor, bottom 8 when he sat. He did similar things to almost every team he's been on.

Kawhi Leonard is the youngest player to win FMVP in a long ass time, and already has more rings and FMVPs than Bernard King. He's a great defender and rebounder too.

I guess you don't value defense, that's fine, but Iggy is already an all-time defender and Kawhi will likely will be one as well. The Scottie Pippen mold.

[QUOTE=oarabbus]Adrian Dantley was a one dimensional scorer, an exceptional one, but just a scorer. Iggy is one of the greatest defenders the game has ever seen, in fact he led the entire league in +/- last year. Warriors were a top 5 defense with him on the floor, bottom 8 when he sat. He did similar things to almost every team he's been on.

Kawhi Leonard is the youngest player to win FMVP in a long ass time, and already has more rings than Bernard King. He's a great defender and rebounder too.

I guess you don't value defense, that's fine, but Iggy is already an all-time defender and Kawhi will likely will be one as well. The Scottie Pippen mold.[/QUOTE]

too bad all his defense did was land him in foul trouble throughout the playoffs and leave no impact on games. great "defense" this day and age is whether or not the whistle is in your favor due to all the soft rules to benefit offensive players.

call me when kawhi averages over 30 points per game and drops 60 in one. put bernard king on the current spurs team in his prime and he'd probably take fmvp too considering that he has to play alongside a declining duncan manu and parker.

literally the only player(s) who wins head-to-head on the list are carmelo anthony and rudy gay. the rest are either questionable or you need to do your research if you disagree.