kareem vs russell -- who is the greatest player of all time?

NBA Championships
Kareem: 6
Russell: 11

Longevity
Kareem: 20
Russell: 13

Honors and Awards (Season MVP)
Kareem: 6
Russell: 5

All-NBA First Team
Kareem: 10
Russell: 3

All-NBA Teams (Total Selections)
Kareem: 15
Russell: 11

Scoring Leader
Kareem: 2
Russell: 0

Rebounds Leader
Kareem: 1
Russell: 4

*note didnt include Finals MVP since it wasnt around for the majority of russell's career. as well, russell did have other scoring options and his team was influenced by their defense (their strength).

me personally? i gotta go with kareem because he did it all and, to a certain extent, played against better centers.

Kareem. I have him at 1 over Jordan all time...so obviously between these two he'll be my pick.

Jordan, but the two in the OP fill out the top 3

Kareem. I have him at 1 over Jordan all time...so obviously between these two he'll be my pick.

The top 4 IMO (all for different reasons) have such a solid case who cares but if I was held at gun point and had to list in order of whom I'd choose it'd probably look like this (briefly summarized):

Wilt - MDIE on both ends, when he won he won on 2 of the greatest teams ever. Nobody is even close to his individual dominance.
Russell - MDWE, he was also a truly dominant rebounding and maybe MDE defender
Jabbar - minus the rebounding (well, replace it with longevity), he's sort of a blend of the accolades Wilt and Russell accomplished (though to a lesser degree in both). He's also sort of a blend of their traits (almost as quick and agile as Russell, while almost dwarfing opponents and scoring like Wilt).
MJ - MD backcourt player and "all-around skill" player ever. Could do everything, to the point that he almost had the impact of the greatest bigs ever. Just about amassed as many accolades as Jabbar.

To me, Kareem is the greatest player of all time. He was the focal point on his teams through the years. Other teams threw 2-3 defenders on him or created other defensive packages geared to stop him and Kareem still shined. Bill Russell is the greatest winner of all-time. But Kareem is the GOAT, to me.

Mj And then Kareem

Sucks they missed out on playing each other by one season.

I personally have KAJ at either #4 or #5 and either ahead, or behind Russell. Having said that, though, how do those that defend KAJ, explain the fact that a PRIME Kareem, in his first ten years, won ONE ring, went to TWO Finals, lost in the first round TWICE, and missed the playoffs altogether another two years?

Did an aging Kareem suddenly become a much better player? A Kareem who couldn't rebound, or play defense for his life, in the last ten years of his career?

Or maybe it was because of MAGIC that KAJ suddenly started winning rings?

A prime Chamberlain did everything better than a prime Kareem, including WINNING. And even a post-surgery Wilt, playing four years in the league with Kareem was a better "winner." In their four years in the league together, Chamberlain went to THREE Finals, while Kareem only went to ONE. Furthermore, Chamberlain carried HIS teams further in '70, '72, and '73. The only season in which Kareem had more team success, was in '71, and fortunately for him, Chamberlain's two best teammates, West and Baylor, missed the playoffs. Even in that series, the consensus was, Chamberlain outplayed KAJ in three of the five games.

The real question should be...how many rings would Wilt have won had he had MAGIC for TEN seasons?

Go to bed, LAZ.

I have Kareem at 3. Wilt and MJ ahead of him.

[B]1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Russell[/B]

kareem quite easily imo

MJ
KAJ
Wilt
Magic
Bird

This is a tough one.

Russell had a different role and purpose for his teams. For Russell to be at his best, you had to surround him with good offensive players since he wasn't and can't be the focal point of any offense, but if complemented with the right kind of players, he would produce championships for you.

No need to worry about chemistry issues with Russell. No ego issues. You can easily build around him even in today's game if you surround him with shooters and players who can drive and dish. Athletic players who can go out on the break would be like the icing in Russell's cake. Russell's blocked shots would make sure of that.

If you were a GM, and you were building an NBA team, starting out with a player like Bill Russell, and building around him by drafting offensive players is certainly a compelling case to build a title team. If you want to win, you want Russell.

And yet, KAJ was totally dominant. KAJ was the greatest offensive player of all time. Yes, better than Wilt or Jordan. Everyone knows that the Lakers lived and died in the half court on KaJ's skyhook. They would run all day on the break with Magic, and when things got tough, Magic would dump it inside to the greatest offensive weapon ever.

If I were a GM in today's game, I would take Russell. To me, its easier to build a title team with Russell than with Kareem. No ego issues means I can find offensive players that would complement Russell, and I believe he would do great in today's style since he wouldn't really demand the ball on the low block.

Not that KAJ would be hampered on the low block by today's style of play, but he may be less efficient, and he would still demand to be the focal point of any offense. Could this be why he needed unselfish guards like Oscar and Magic to win titles? Hmmm, hard to say, but there may be something to this.

Both are inferior to Jordan. Russell have the rings but doesn't have the stats. Kareem was a sidekick in most of his rings, 2FMVP / 6 championships. Heck a rookie Magic won FMVP over him.

Jordan has the complete package. Combination of accolades, stats, popularity, highlight reel moves, artistry, playoff heroic moments and clutch plays. Undefeated in the Finals and bagged all FMVP in his every trip there. He has the aura that makes everyone shocked and in awe when watching him. Also, every casual fan knows him, I doubt about Russell and Kareem.

Both of them can shine Jordan's shoes. No argument over MJ as the GOAT.

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Russell

[QUOTE=Angel Face]Both are inferior to Jordan. Russell have the rings but doesn't have the stats. Kareem was a sidekick in most of his rings, 2FMVP / 6 championships. Heck a rookie Magic won FMVP over him.

Jordan has the complete package. Combination of accolades, stats, popularity, highlight reel moves, artistry, playoff heroic moments and clutch plays. He has the aura that makes everyone shocked and in awe when watching him. Also, every casual fan knows him, I doubt about Russell and Kareem.

Both of them can shine Jordan's shoes. No argument over MJ as the GOAT.[/QUOTE]
Agreed.

[QUOTE=Angel Face]Both are inferior to Jordan. Russell have the rings but doesn't have the stats. Kareem was a sidekick in most of his rings, 2FMVP / 6 championships. Heck a rookie Magic won FMVP over him.

Jordan has the complete package. Combination of accolades, stats, popularity, highlight reel moves, artistry, playoff heroic moments and clutch plays. Undefeated in the Finals and bagged all FMVP in his every trip there. He has the aura that makes everyone shocked and in awe when watching him. Also, every casual fan knows him, I doubt about Russell and Kareem.

Both of them can shine Jordan's shoes. No argument over MJ as the GOAT.

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Russell[/QUOTE]

I know you hate to say it, but Kareem has a godly combination of rings/stats like MJ... 3 as best player, 4 with elite/goat like type production.

good to see most posters appreciate the 2 goats :applause:

like drj4ever, i have trouble with this because kareem was so dominant and had such amazing longevity, whereas russell won everywhere he went. hell even coached a team to the finals.

maybe we can boil it down like this-
for stability and easy building: russell
total package: kareem

Out of those 2 ,Neither is greatest player of all time , but I would rank Lew higher than William

Kareem was the better player not the better competitor. If they were contemporaries I believe Russell wins more because he's a great team player.

If Kareem was a contemporary with Jordan I really believe Jordan could have shut him out. I really believe Russell would have gotten Jordan once or twice. Magic might have been the only one to top Russell.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Kareem was the better player not the better competitor. If they were contemporaries I believe Russell wins more because he's a great team player.

[B]If Kareem was a contemporary with Jordan I really believe Jordan could have shut him out[/B]. I really believe Russell would have gotten Jordan once or twice. Magic might have been the only one to top Russell.[/QUOTE]

:biggums:

good luck with those chicago bigs... and with winning from the first day since it took jordan alot of time to learn to play for the team (thanks phil). Kareem was a dominant centerpiece from day 1 until 2 years before his retirement. That means 17 seasons of elite production. NOBODY matches that. And compared to jordan he went through some GOAT matchups and won in the most stakked era of all time, the 80s.... he also won and contended with some poor teams before (please don't mention oscar on his last leg being a star).... did jordan come close to contention/winning with poor teams?.. no.

Kareem is GOAT imo. The college career, the rings, the stats, the longevity. Being able to be both alpha and beta (truly there for the win). Went against wilt, thurmond, walton, 80s celtics, 4-4-4 philly, late 80s detroit. That some badass competition right there. Jordan barely got by the pistons when they aged. Jordan's best position rival was clyde drexler, that's not shabby but compared to wilt, moses malone or thurmond he's a nobody.

I'm tired of this Jordan is undisputed goat shit. KAJ, Magic both have serious cases against him but trolls just try to undermine them because they played together. Also the 5/5 shit which later became 6/6 was started by jordan stans to prop their boy over magic waaaaay back in 1997. Jordan also benefited from an easy era because there were no true superteams besides the bulls .. much like the 60s celtics. If the 80s lakers played in the 90s they probaby ring all decade long.

Won't talk about russell because he's from an older era and benefited from super stack teams relative to league power. Wilt is the goat talent and statpadder but that wasn't coupled with will and dedication.

This jordan brainwashing wasn't there in the early 90s son, people still remembered other GOAT talent. Nowadays it's just untalkable. You get crazy posts like if Jordan was better than magic in the post like low post action doesn't even exist.

As for kareem vs russell I'll take the one that can reliably score a bucket, therefore kareem.

[QUOTE=swagga]:biggums:

good luck with those chicago bigs... and with winning from the first day since it took jordan alot of time to learn to play for the team (thanks phil). Kareem was a dominant centerpiece from day 1 until 2 years before his retirement. That means 17 seasons of elite production. NOBODY matches that. And compared to jordan he went through some GOAT matchups and won in the most stakked era of all time, the 80s.... he also won and contended with some poor teams before (please don't mention oscar on his last leg being a star).... did jordan come close to contention/winning with poor teams?.. no.

Kareem is GOAT imo. The college career, the rings, the stats, the longevity. Being able to be both alpha and beta (truly there for the win). Went against wilt, thurmond, walton, 80s celtics, 4-4-4 philly, late 80s detroit. That some badass competition right there. Jordan barely got by the pistons when they aged. Jordan's best position rival was clyde drexler, that's not shabby but compared to wilt, moses malone or thurmond he's a nobody.

I'm tired of this Jordan is undisputed goat shit. KAJ, Magic both have serious cases against him but trolls just try to undermine them because they played together. Also the 5/5 shit which later became 6/6 was started by jordan stans to prop their boy over magic waaaaay back in 1997. Jordan also benefited from an easy era because there were no true superteams besides the bulls .. much like the 60s celtics. If the 80s lakers played in the 90s they probaby ring all decade long.

Won't talk about russell because he's from an older era and benefited from super stack teams relative to league power. Wilt is the goat talent and statpadder but that wasn't coupled with will and dedication.

This jordan brainwashing wasn't there in the early 90s son, people still remembered other GOAT talent. Nowadays it's just untalkable. You get crazy posts like if Jordan was better than magic in the post like low post action doesn't even exist.

As for kareem vs russell I'll take the one that can reliably score a bucket, therefore kareem.[/QUOTE]
some good points

just a note,though. i wouldnt say that ENTIRE 90s decade was weak. the mid-to-late 90s, however had to have been the meekest competition all time.

[QUOTE=swagga]:biggums:

good luck with those chicago bigs... and with winning from the first day since it took jordan alot of time to learn to play for the team (thanks phil). Kareem was a dominant centerpiece from day 1 until 2 years before his retirement. That means 17 seasons of elite production. NOBODY matches that. And compared to jordan he went through some GOAT matchups and won in the most stakked era of all time, the 80s.... he also won and contended with some poor teams before (please don't mention oscar on his last leg being a star).... did jordan come close to contention/winning with poor teams?.. no.

Kareem is GOAT imo. The college career, the rings, the stats, the longevity. Being able to be both alpha and beta (truly there for the win). Went against wilt, thurmond, walton, 80s celtics, 4-4-4 philly, late 80s detroit. That some badass competition right there. Jordan barely got by the pistons when they aged. Jordan's best position rival was clyde drexler, that's not shabby but compared to wilt, moses malone or thurmond he's a nobody.

I'm tired of this Jordan is undisputed goat shit. KAJ, Magic both have serious cases against him but trolls just try to undermine them because they played together. Also the 5/5 shit which later became 6/6 was started by jordan stans to prop their boy over magic waaaaay back in 1997. Jordan also benefited from an easy era because there were no true superteams besides the bulls .. much like the 60s celtics. If the 80s lakers played in the 90s they probaby ring all decade long.

Won't talk about russell because he's from an older era and benefited from super stack teams relative to league power. Wilt is the goat talent and statpadder but that wasn't coupled with will and dedication.

This jordan brainwashing wasn't there in the early 90s son, people still remembered other GOAT talent. Nowadays it's just untalkable. You get crazy posts like if Jordan was better than magic in the post like low post action doesn't even exist.

As for kareem vs russell I'll take the one that can reliably score a bucket, therefore kareem.[/QUOTE]


:applause:

[QUOTE=swagga]:biggums:

good luck with those chicago bigs... and with winning from the first day since it took jordan alot of time to learn to play for the team (thanks phil). Kareem was a dominant centerpiece from day 1 until 2 years before his retirement. That means 17 seasons of elite production. NOBODY matches that. And compared to jordan he went through some GOAT matchups and won in the most stakked era of all time, the 80s.... he also won and contended with some poor teams before (please don't mention oscar on his last leg being a star).... did jordan come close to contention/winning with poor teams?.. no.

Kareem is GOAT imo. The college career, the rings, the stats, the longevity. Being able to be both alpha and beta (truly there for the win). Went against wilt, thurmond, walton, 80s celtics, 4-4-4 philly, late 80s detroit. That some badass competition right there. Jordan barely got by the pistons when they aged. Jordan's best position rival was clyde drexler, that's not shabby but compared to wilt, moses malone or thurmond he's a nobody.

I'm tired of this Jordan is undisputed goat shit. KAJ, Magic both have serious cases against him but trolls just try to undermine them because they played together. Also the 5/5 shit which later became 6/6 was started by jordan stans to prop their boy over magic waaaaay back in 1997. Jordan also benefited from an easy era because there were no true superteams besides the bulls .. much like the 60s celtics. If the 80s lakers played in the 90s they probaby ring all decade long.

Won't talk about russell because he's from an older era and benefited from super stack teams relative to league power. Wilt is the goat talent and statpadder but that wasn't coupled with will and dedication.

This jordan brainwashing wasn't there in the early 90s son, people still remembered other GOAT talent. Nowadays it's just untalkable. You get crazy posts like if Jordan was better than magic in the post like low post action doesn't even exist.

As for kareem vs russell I'll take the one that can reliably score a bucket, therefore kareem.[/QUOTE]

Basically, I'm talking about having equal teams with MJ and Kareem as centerpieces. I also think Magic was a better team player than Jordan. No way would Rick Barry with an inferior team win it all on Jordan's watch. No way would Jordan get shut out in four years of bad basketball while Kareem should have been in his peak. I just don't see it. It wasn't until Kareem stepped down that Lakers could win a back to back. There are only a handful of players that you can really say had a way with winning: Russell, Magic, Duncan are at the top of that order.

Kareem played ten years in the 70's and his most productive years and won once. Who in the top ten GOAT list could have pulled that off? Kobe, Lebron and Hakeem who are usually listed end of GOAT list would have at least won twice. '75 - 79 were kind of wide open - even Portland wasn't that experienced. Jordan totally dominated the era of greatest centers. In Kareem's tenure centers were reduced to a significantly weaker role - the weakest it was since Wilt/Russell. Gus Williams, Walt Frazier, Rick Barry were more impressive winning wise with their teams than Kareem was with his. The center's who heavily imprinted wins were Wilt, Cowen's and Reed in the 70's. When Kareem had the center spotlight to himself in the worst consecutive 5 years the league has had since the mid '50's, he couldn't convince the world that the center position meant much for a title at all.

If you can't distinguish yourself when nobody is around, how are you going to do it when the real heavy hitters are around?

Great player and great longevity with Kareem. But he likely has a 16 year career without Magic with two rings tops as the best player. Jordan, if he started in 1970 does his 14 years no less than 8 rings or 9 rings. I would still take Jordan.

I will also say that I believe Wilt was the most serviceable center the league ever had. Coaches were not up for his level of talent. He could do everything that was important from that position at the highest level.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]some good points

just a note,though. i wouldnt say that ENTIRE 90s decade was weak. the mid-to-late 90s, however had to have been the meekest competition all time.[/QUOTE]
Want to compare top player's in their prime between the two decades???

Want to compare centers at their best???

Want to compare the players that won in years when MJ and Kareem lost?

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Want to compare top player's in their prime between the two decades???

Want to compare centers at their best???

Want to compare the players that won in years when MJ and Kareem lost?[/QUOTE]

want to compare TEAMS, as they win rings?
want to compare position matchups to see against whom these players earned their stripes and who was their best direct competition?

Your questions mean nothing in terms of team play (which TEAM rings) and position play (which men did they go up against). Who gives a shit jordan beat ewing when starks was the second option ?? who cares that hakeem was a beast when his team was poor?? NOBODY is winning it alone. NOBODY.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Basically, I'm talking about having equal teams with MJ and Kareem as centerpieces. I also think Magic was a better team player than Jordan. No way would Rick Barry with an inferior team win it all on Jordan's watch. No way would Jordan get shut out in four years of bad basketball while Kareem should have been in his peak. I just don't see it. It wasn't until Kareem stepped down that Lakers could win a back to back. There are only a handful of players that you can really say had a way with winning: Russell, Magic, Duncan are at the top of that order.

Kareem played ten years in the 70's and his most productive years and won once. Who in the top ten GOAT list could have pulled that off? Kobe, Lebron and Hakeem who are usually listed end of GOAT list would have at least won twice. '75 - 79 were kind of wide open - even Portland wasn't that experienced. Jordan totally dominated the era of greatest centers. In Kareem's tenure centers were reduced to a significantly weaker role - the weakest it was since Wilt/Russell. Gus Williams, Walt Frazier, Rick Barry were more impressive winning wise with their teams than Kareem was with his. The center's who heavily imprinted wins were Wilt, Cowen's and Reed in the 70's. When Kareem had the center spotlight to himself in the worst consecutive 5 years the league has had since the mid '50's, he couldn't convince the world that the center position meant much for a title at all.

If you can't distinguish yourself when nobody is around, how are you going to do it when the real heavy hitters are around?

Great player and great longevity with Kareem. But he likely has a 16 year career without Magic with two rings tops as the best player. Jordan, if he started in 1970 does his 14 years no less than 8 rings or 9 rings. I would still take Jordan.

I will also say that I believe Wilt was the most serviceable center the league ever had. Coaches were not up for his level of talent. He could do everything that was important from that position at the highest level.[/QUOTE]

TEAMS win rings. With whom would jordan win 8 or 9 rings? Alone? Does he play 1v5? Does he get the stacked 90s bulls? Does he get a shit team?

wilt couldn't do the most basic thing a basketball player has to do. To play with other people with the purpose of winning. It was always wilt not having time to practice, wilt stat whoring for APG titles, wilt not getting along with the coach, wilt not shooting to make a point, wilt shooting sparsely to win the FG title.
Wilt was never there to win it all for the team. Wilt was there to win it on wilt's terms for wilt's sake ... and some very reasonable HOF teammates couldn't help him do it consistently throughout his career..

Jesus christ, your post reeks of the shit nike pushed in basketball fans mouths for the entire 90s: that the alpha dog wins it by himself. The biggest myth in basketball!

Russell. He is the GOAT winner and the only one deserving of GOAT talk together with MJ. :applause:

KAJ? I can't seriously consider him in the top 3, I think Magic should get more credit for those 5 rings than KAJ. Even after he retired, the Lakers under Magic's leadership was a title contender. KAJ in his prime lost to teams he shouldn't have lost to. In contrast, MJ in his early years lost to great teams. :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=swagga]TEAMS win rings. With whom would jordan win 8 or 9 rings? Alone? Does he play 1v5? Does he get the stacked 90s bulls? Does he get a shit team?

wilt couldn't do the most basic thing a basketball player has to do. To play with other people with the purpose of winning. It was always wilt not having time to practice, wilt stat whoring for APG titles, wilt not getting along with the coach, wilt not shooting to make a point, wilt shooting sparsely to win the FG title.
Wilt was never there to win it all for the team. Wilt was there to win it on wilt's terms for wilt's sake ... and some very reasonable HOF teammates couldn't help him do it consistently throughout his career..

Jesus christ, your post reeks of the shit nike pushed in basketball fans mouths for the entire 90s: that the alpha dog wins it by himself. The biggest myth in basketball![/QUOTE]

This may be the best post I have ever read. Thank You.

1. Russell
2. Jordan
3. Kareem
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Wilt
9. Kobe
10. Lebron

Close, but gotta go with Russell. BR releasing the defensive and offensive ratings of 60s teams really changed my mind on Russell.

Russell clearly. Boston's defense went from -6.4 to -0.1 the year after he retired at age 35. It peaked at -10.8 in 1964, which is unheard of any era. No player has ever been more valuable to a franchise, nor has any single player revolutionized the sport quite the same. I would take him over KAJ both as a college and NBA center. In looking at the disrespect towards Russell among most NBA fans now, I don't know if it is a Lakers bias, era favoritism, or a preference towards pure shooting touch, seeing as that is the only advantage KAJ has on Russell in tangible physical skills. Intangibly, there is no comparison.

[QUOTE=swagga]:biggums:

good luck with those chicago bigs... and with winning from the first day since it took jordan alot of time to learn to play for the team (thanks phil). Kareem was a dominant centerpiece from day 1 until 2 years before his retirement. That means 17 seasons of elite production. NOBODY matches that. And compared to jordan he went through some GOAT matchups and won in the most stakked era of all time, the 80s.... he also won and contended with some poor teams before (please don't mention oscar on his last leg being a star).... did jordan come close to contention/winning with poor teams?.. no.

Kareem is GOAT imo. The college career, the rings, the stats, the longevity. Being able to be both alpha and beta (truly there for the win). Went against wilt, thurmond, walton, 80s celtics, 4-4-4 philly, late 80s detroit. That some badass competition right there. Jordan barely got by the pistons when they aged. Jordan's best position rival was clyde drexler, that's not shabby but compared to wilt, moses malone or thurmond he's a nobody.

I'm tired of this Jordan is undisputed goat shit. KAJ, Magic both have serious cases against him but trolls just try to undermine them because they played together. Also the 5/5 shit which later became 6/6 was started by jordan stans to prop their boy over magic waaaaay back in 1997. Jordan also benefited from an easy era because there were no true superteams besides the bulls .. much like the 60s celtics. If the 80s lakers played in the 90s they probaby ring all decade long.

Won't talk about russell because he's from an older era and benefited from super stack teams relative to league power. Wilt is the goat talent and statpadder but that wasn't coupled with will and dedication.

This jordan brainwashing wasn't there in the early 90s son, people still remembered other GOAT talent. Nowadays it's just untalkable. You get crazy posts like if Jordan was better than magic in the post like low post action doesn't even exist.

As for kareem vs russell I'll take the one that can reliably score a bucket, therefore kareem.[/QUOTE]

I thoroughly agree with all this Jordan is undisputed goat stuff. It's bogus.

Jordan played in a relatively weaker 90s era. It was diluted and it was acknowledged by observers back then. Jordan never faced a "super team" in the Finals any year. The Jazz LOL.

Still 6/6 is 6/6, but like Marciano. Ali is universally ranked higher by experts over Marciano, even though Rocky went undefeated, and Ali has a handful of losses. Why? Ali faced giants in the ring, plain and simple.

Jordan? Sorry, I just didn't see it.

[QUOTE=Dr.J4ever]I thoroughly agree with all this Jordan is undisputed goat stuff. It's bogus.

Jordan played in a relatively weaker 90s era. It was diluted and it was acknowledged by observers back then. Jordan never faced a "super team" in the Finals any year. The Jazz LOL.

Still 6/6 is 6/6, but like Marciano. Ali is universally ranked higher by experts over Marciano, even though Rocky went undefeated, and Ali has a handful of losses. Why? Ali faced giants in the ring, plain and simple.

Jordan? Sorry, I just didn't see it.[/QUOTE]

Where do you rank Jordan?

[QUOTE=swagga]TEAMS win rings. With whom would jordan win 8 or 9 rings? Alone? Does he play 1v5? Does he get the stacked 90s bulls? Does he get a shit team?

wilt couldn't do the most basic thing a basketball player has to do. To play with other people with the purpose of winning. It was always wilt not having time to practice, wilt stat whoring for APG titles, wilt not getting along with the coach, wilt not shooting to make a point, wilt shooting sparsely to win the FG title.
Wilt was never there to win it all for the team. Wilt was there to win it on wilt's terms for wilt's sake ... and some very reasonable HOF teammates couldn't help him do it consistently throughout his career..

Jesus christ, your post reeks of the shit nike pushed in basketball fans mouths for the entire 90s: that the alpha dog wins it by himself. The biggest myth in basketball![/QUOTE]

TEAMs do win rings. That is why MJ was 1-9 in his first ten playoff games, couldn't beat the Pistons in three straight post-seasons, and didn't win a ring until he had the best supporting rosters in the league.

That is why Russell's Celtics, the most stacked rosters of all-time, and with the most clutch supporting (and LEADING players, like Havlicek in '68 and '69) won 11 rings. Hell, his '58 team BARELY lost with him missing over half of the series, and his team playing better without him, than with him.

Kareem? Was the best player in the league in the entire decade of the 70's. And played on TWO teams that went to the Finals, and won ONE ring...in his 10 prime seasons. He also was swept with HCA in one, lost another with HCA in the first round, was beaten with stacked rosters, TWICE, by a Seattle team with one borderline HOF player, and missed the playoffs entirely in two straight seasons.

Shaq? Swept SIX times in the playoffs. Hell, he went 1-8 against Greg Ostertag, and was awful in one of their series H2H's.

Bird? Lost with HCA SEVEN times, and was either ordinary, or awful in most of them. Hell, he won a ring in a Finals in which he averaged 15 ppg on a .419 FG%.

Hakeem? Wasn't even considered a Top-5 player for the vast majority of his career, and won ONE MVP in a season in which the best player in the league took the year off. In 18 seasons he played on FIVE teams that won 50+ games, with a high of 58 wins. He only went to four Conference Finals, three Finals, and won two rings in seasons in which MJ took the year off, or his TEAMMATES overwhelmed Shaq's. He also missed the playoffs HALF of his career, and was wiped out in the First Round EIGHT times.

Kobe? Without question, the WORST Finals' performer of all of the Top-10 players of all-time. Single handedly shot his team's out of the Finals in '04 and '08. And his last games in all of his Finals are among the worst of all-time.

Wilt did MORE things than ANY other player.

1. His COACH looked at his pathetic cast of clowns in '61-62, and asked Wilt to play 49 mpg and shoot 40 times per game. The result? Chamberlain took a team, the core of which was the same last place roster he inherited two years earlier, and led them to a game seven, two point loss, against the HOF-laden 60-20 Celtics, in, as always, a series in which he crushed Russell, and did so with his teammates collectively shooting .345 in it.

2. His new coach in '63-64 conducted a pre-season scrimmage, sans Wilt, with his returning roster, and a group of rookies and scrubs. He was absolutely horrified when the scrubs won. HE then asked Wilt to become a more all-around player, and Chamberlain played the best defense ever played by anyone not named Russell. He took a 31-49 roster to a 48-32 record, and a very competitive Finals against the Celtics and their EIGHT HOFers, in a series in which he just carpet-bombed Russell.

3. That is why a 64-65 Chamberlain took a 40-40 team, with the same roster that went 34-46 the year before, and didn't make the playoffs, thru a first round romp over Oscar's stacked 48-32 Royals, and then to a game seven, one point loss against the 62-18 Celtics, in a series in which he just obliterated Russell.

4. That is why in 66-67, and under his another new COACH, he became a facilitator, and with finally a supporting roster the equal of Russell's, led them to an all-time best record, and then in the playoffs, he and his team just castrated Russell and his eight-time defending, and 60-21, Celtics.

5. That is why, in the very next year he set out to lead the league in assists, and not only accomplished the feat, he led his TEAM to the a RUNAWAY BEST RECORD. Furthermore, if he, and HALF of his TEAMMATES had not been decimated by injuries, they would certainly have repeated their previous year annihilation of the Celtics. As it was, a Chamberlain playing every minute of a series, in which NO ONE ELSE would have under the same circumstances, was able to take a shell of a roster to a game seven, four point loss.

6. Or that with his new team in 68-69, and under an incompetent coach, he STILL did whatever was asked of him, and had to painfully watch from the bench in the last five minutes of a game seven in which his TEAM, and with his TEAMMATES collectively outshot by Russell's, .477 to .360, lose by TWO points. In a series in which the Lakers were ONE PLAY away from winning, 4-1.

7. Or the Wilt who came back a YEAR AHEAD of schedule from major knee surgery, and played at WAY less than 100%, because he wanted to help his TEAMMATES, and with a much poorer roster, and on basically one-leg, he got them to a game seven against the same Knick team that buried KAJ's 56-26 Bucks, 4-1 in the ECF's. And he did so with the ONLY 20-20- .600 Finals in NBA history.

8. Or the Wilt, overwhelmingly outgunned by Kareem and his 66-16 Bucks in the '71 WCF's, STILL outplayed a PEAK Kareem in a series loss. And as he left the floor in the last minute of the last game, he received a STANDING OVATION. Oh, and BTW, ...the game was played in MILWAUKEE!

9. Or the Wilt, in 71-72, and with yet ANOTHER new COACH, was asked to concentrate on defense, rebounding, and starting the break, and with one of the oldest rosters in the league (and league history), he led them to a then best ever record, at 69-13, which included 33 straight wins. Then, a 35 year old Wilt, in the twilight of his career, completely reduced a PEAK Kareem to a shot-jacking brick-layer in the last four games of the '72 WCF's, and led his team past a Bucks team that virtually EVERYONE believed would not only repeat as champions, but would be the next great dynasty.

Then, he dominated in the Finals, and even played the clinching game five with shattered wrist (the same injury that routinely side-lined Kareem for chunks of seasons), and led his team to their first ever title in Los Angeles, and all with his best teammate shooting .325 from the field...en route to a FMVP.

10. Or the Wilt who led his 72-73 team to a 60-22 record, and then crushed the same Warrior team that wiped out Kareem's 60-22 Bucks in the first round. And in the Finals, with his overmatched and injury-riddled roster, he kept LA in all four losses into the final minute, and in his very LAST game of his entire career, he put up a 23-21 game.


The REALITY was, in Wilt's first six seasons, he played on the worst rosters in the league, and STILL got them to four conference Finals, and a Finals, and lost two of those in game seven's to FAR superior Celtic teams.

The REALITY was, in Wilt's Philly years, he led them to the BEST RECORD in the league THREE straight seasons, including a 68-13 team that was perhaps the most dominant in NBA history, and would surely have repeated had not HALF the team been injured.

The REALITY was, in his five Laker seasons, he led his team to the Conference Finals EVERY year, and then to the Finals in FOUR of his FIVE seasons. He also accomplished considerably more from a TEAM standpoint, than a PEAK Kareem.

The REALITY was, Chamberlain not only PLAYED with injuries that would have had other players in ICU, he STILL played BRILLIANTLY. In fact, he was STILL putting up 20-20 post-season series while either noticeably limping, or with BOTH wrists heavily-bandaged. And he PLAYED nearly EVERY minute in them, as well.

Players like Russell missed chunks of games with an ankle injury. Or Kareem missed a clinching title game with a sprained ankle (and CHUNKS of seasons with a broken wrist, and even games with headaches.) Or Wilis Reed was lauded for doing absolutely nothing in a game seven in which his TEAMMATES completely shelled Wilt's. And in the same game, Chamberlain, only four months removed from major knee surgery, hung a 21-24 game, and was the ONLY Laker to play well.

Yep, Wilt the "selfish" "loser" who "choked."

[QUOTE=DatAsh]Where do you rank Jordan?[/QUOTE]

Kareem or Russell as 1 or 2, and then Jordan.

[QUOTE=swagga]TEAMS win rings. With whom would jordan win 8 or 9 rings? Alone? Does he play 1v5? Does he get the stacked 90s bulls? Does he get a shit team? [/quote]
I said equal teams. Rick Barry won with rookie Jamal Wilkes as the easily the second best player. On the 78 and 79 teams Jamal was arguably the third best player after Kareem and Dantley. He wasn't clearly better than Nixon either or Lou Hudson the year before that. Give Jordan, Kareems teams with just a serviceable center. When nobody is dominant, the dominant stand out more. Jordan weeded out players on his team that were scared or not into winning. From 1975 to 79 there were no dynastic teams, no teams much more experienced than others and no player that had that killer mentality like Jordan. No player that stood out as a superior winner.
[quote]
wilt couldn't do the most basic thing a basketball player has to do. To play with other people with the purpose of winning. It was always wilt not having time to practice, wilt stat whoring for APG titles, wilt not getting along with the coach, wilt not shooting to make a point, wilt shooting sparsely to win the FG title.
Wilt was never there to win it all for the team. Wilt was there to win it on wilt's terms for wilt's sake ... and some very reasonable HOF teammates couldn't help him do it consistently throughout his career. [/quote] Wilt had did as much as Kareem did in the 70's winning wise??? Magic totally flipped Kareem's losing ways.

[QUOTE=Dr.J4ever]Kareem or Russell as 1 or 2, and then Jordan.[/QUOTE]

Cool beans. I was just curious.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]I said equal teams. Rick Barry won with rookie Jamal Wilkes as the easily the second best player. On the 78 and 79 teams Jamal was arguably the third best player after Kareem and Dantley. He wasn't clearly better than Nixon either or Lou Hudson the year before that. Give Jordan, Kareems teams with just a serviceable center. When nobody is dominant, the dominant stand out more. [/QUOTE]

with this reasoning wilt has to have at least 10 rings... and we come again to the conclusion that TEAMS ring. If we take out every player out the top 10 MVP and every player which had more than 20ppg last year and put lebron on the 76ers he ain't winning. He's not even making it out the 2nd round.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]
Jordan weeded out players on his team that were scared or not into winning.
[/QUOTE]

:biggums: are you for real son? wtf did I just read? Did players audition before jordan? LOL that's some utter crap. If jordan did anything for his teammates was to be an asshole and he almost got his shit pushed in because of this, as you should know.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]
From 1975 to 79 there were no dynastic teams, no teams much more experienced than others and no player that had that killer mentality like Jordan. No player that stood out as a superior winner.
Wilt had did as much as Kareem did in the 70's winning wise??? Magic totally flipped Kareem's losing ways.[/QUOTE]

yet wilt had jerry west and baylor. [U]You could say that magic was the missing piece for kareem's team just like scottie pippen was the missing piece for jordan's team. As worthy/scott were that piece that puts you over the top like oakley/rodman[/U]

Please stop with this alpha dog crap, it's cringing. Wes unseld's leg? Stockon playing thourgh shitloads of injuries? Ewing giving it for an incompetent franchise? Malone at 38 on his last leg? Jerry west and his fears? Isiah ankle? etc.... many many great players were super competitors.
Sometimes this competitivity went overboard and great players were trying to prove a point rather than win:
- kobe not passing to prove he is the man 2004,
- wilt on many occasions as I've previously said,
- lebron not shooting 2011 thinking that he'd hurt his team by overshooting
- iso jordan for much of his young career
- a myriad other examples
Still competitive but misguided, aka competitivity without leadership. Some learned from their mistakes others didn't, but [B]they didn't fear winning[/B]. [B]Btw if jordan was SO competitive and wanted to win so much why did he retire when he only had 3 rings? [/B]

I didn't even talk about big vs wing defensive impact...big man's game and all. Jordan is phenomenal as he is the only GOAT level player that is under 6'6'. All the others are 6'9'+ (bird,magic,russell, kareem, lebron - argue all you want, duncan, hakeem, wilt). Or whistles and special refereeing, lebron gets some but it's not on the same level with jordan.

Jordan is just a GOAT level player with the GOAT media. That's what set him appart and that's why we hear this constant crap about him being an untouchable god. He isn't. He had his fair share of bad days. Bad shooting. Bad leadership. Bad whistles for defenders.

[QUOTE=PHILA][B]Russell clearly.[/B] Boston's defense went from -6.4 to -0.1 the year after he retired at age 35. It peaked at -10.8 in 1964, which is unheard of any era. No player has ever been more valuable to a franchise, nor has any single player revolutionized the sport quite the same. I would take him over KAJ both as a college and NBA center. In looking at the disrespect towards Russell among most NBA fans now, I don't know if it is a Lakers bias, era favoritism, or a preference towards pure shooting touch, [B]seeing as that is the only advantage KAJ has on Russell in tangible physical skills.[/B] Intangibly, there is no comparison.[/QUOTE]

Come on now :facepalm

It's actually scoring, by a landslide.