Coach Thibbs: "When Jordan was playing..."

[url]http://www.nba.com/2014/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/28/the-international-influence-mainbar/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt3a[/url]

A great article on the evolution of the "city game" into the world's game and the impact of internationals on the NBA.

I saw this interesting quote that could shed light on some of the debate on rules changes we were having here on ISH a couple months back..

""When Jordan was playing," Chicago coach Tom Thibodeau said, "if he was isolated at 12 feet or at the elbow, you had to keep your 'big' on the weak side. There was no way you could get him across the lane. Now that you can bring your big over to the strong side, elbow isolations become jump-shot plays. And there's usually four shooters on the floor, at a minimum, and some teams have five."

Feel free to disagree with one of the NBA's best defensive minds.

3ball is about to spam:oldlol:

Jordan Stans incoming

somewhere an alarm is going off in dondadda's basement

Damnnnnn I didn't know this!!!! No way is MJ the goat anymore
#lbj4lyfeeeee

[QUOTE=Dr.J4ever][url]http://www.nba.com/2014/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/28/the-international-influence-mainbar/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt3a[/url]

A great article on the evolution of the "city game" into the world's game and the impact of internationals on the NBA.

I saw this interesting quote that could shed light on some of the debate on rules changes we were having here on ISH a couple months back..

""When Jordan was playing," Chicago coach Tom Thibodeau said, "if he was isolated at 12 feet or at the elbow, you had to keep your 'big' on the weak side. There was no way you could get him across the lane. Now that you can bring your big over to the strong side, elbow isolations become jump-shot plays. And there's usually four shooters on the floor, at a minimum, and some teams have five."

Feel free to disagree with one of the NBA's best defensive minds.[/QUOTE]

Wow didn't know that, i was overrating Jordan from the start, he should be outside top 20 because he's playing with this kinds of rule.

[QUOTE=The Immortal]

INB4 chest to chest.[/QUOTE]


:oldlol:

Makes sense.

Hand checking vs Zone rules have always been a give or take dynamic

Well i guess this drops him out of the top10 then

[QUOTE=The Immortal]3ball >>>>> Thibs on basketball. Nothing to see here.


INB4 chest to chest.[/QUOTE]

:applause:

It's an absolute fact that it's more difficult to score in today's NBA than it was back in the 90s.

All the rule changes from 2005 on were nothing more than to counter balance defensive systems like the aforementioned. It's all evened out now.

What's new? Rules change the game, there have been TONS of rules changes since MJ retired and the game is clearly not the same. Doesn't mean he couldn't play today. He would play different, that's for sure. But he would still dominate the game. Afterall, it was his mind/character/skills what made him who he is.

[url=http://grantland.com/features/packing-paint-nba-defensive-strategy-forcing-coaches-rethink-their-offense/]http://grantland.com/features/packing-paint-nba-defensive-strategy-forcing-coaches-rethink-their-offense/[/url]

“[b][i]A lot of the defensive strategies you see now are a natural evolution from rule changes[/i],” says Houston GM Daryl Morey[/b], in reference to the league’s decision a decade ago to abandon illegal defense rules and essentially allow zone defenses..

the new defensive strategies result from the rule changes, so the new defensive strategies only ensure that it remains equally hard to score under the new rules as it was under the old rules

One coach giving his opinion on one specific type of play is not thread-worthy.

What today's defenses gain in one area, they lose in another area - this has always been the league's intention with any rule change they've made over the years... The league would never change the rules so that one side (the offense or the defense) has a sudden big advantage over the other.

[i]This is why league-wide offensive rating (points-per-possession) remains stable over time, which PROVES that it is no harder to score today than it was 30 years ago[/i].

Teams score the same points-per-possession today as they did 30 years ago, because as the defense gains an advantage in one area (being able to play quasi-zones), they lose something in another area (having to play those zones while not entering the paint for more than 3 seconds and not being able to hand-check/be physical anymore).

So today's defensive strategies only ensure that the environment under the new rules where the defense has to guard more 3-pointers, stay out of the paint, and be less physical, [i]remains just as hard to score in[/i] as the old environment where the defense only had to guard 2-pointers, COULD camp in the paint and could be much more physical.

If anyone disagrees with this, answer me one question: if it's harder to score, why has league-wide offensive rating remained stable over the years and the same as it was 30 years ago?

like, people don't understand that the reason the Spurs offense is so bomb and role players look like all-stars, is because the Spurs are the best itl at stretching and bending the NBA's rules better than anyone else.

they exploit the defensive 3 seconds rule and take advantage of the defense having to abide by this rule, better than any other team.

Today's defensive 3 seconds rule requires defenders to stay out of the lane, unless they are within "armslength" of an opponent.. [url]http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html[/url]

The original rule from 1982 was different, and ALLOWED defenders to camp in the paint: ([url]http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html[/url])

[INDENT][B]1981-82[/B]
"[I]Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint)"[/I].[/INDENT]

So just by substituting the rule's own parenthetical reference, the rule translates EXACTLY to: "Defender on player adjacent to the paint is allowed in defensive 3 second area."


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b209aeddf6bfaaa9fcaed8eea3c72c65.gif[/IMG]


[b]in this clip, Klay Thompson's dad (#43 in the middle of lane) would get a tech after 3 seconds in today's game because his man is out of "armslength".... but back then, he was legal because his man was "adjacent to the paint", which was the only requirement at the time - notice how there is no need for Thompson to tippy-toe in and out of the paint.
[/B]

in previous eras, guys didn't have to worry about staying out of the lane or tippy-toeing - the 3 seconds rule was very simple back then: as long as their man was "adjacent to the paint", defenders could stay in the lane... so usually, they could camp in the lane for the entire possession because the paint is huge, and "adjacent to the paint" covers a ton of ground... Furthermore, "adjacent to the paint" could mean right next to the paint, a few feet outside the paint, or all the way out to the 3-point line - [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695139&postcount=1][u]defenders routinely camped in the paint while their man was behind the 3-point line[/u][/url].

contrastingly, today's rule makes sure defenders can physically touch their man to stay in the lane, by requiring defenders be within "armslength" of an opponent - since players that are outside, or "adjacent to the paint", are out of armslength to defenders inside the paint, players in today's game are not allowed to stay in the lane if their man is outside the paint.
.

[QUOTE=Hoopz2332]3ball is about to spam:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Nailed it

[QUOTE=J Shuttlesworth]Nailed it[/QUOTE]


:oldlol:

.
[B][SIZE="4"]Michael Jordan versus Reggie Lewis (starting SG vs. starting SG)[/SIZE]
[/B]

[B]Jordan 41 points 1990[/B]... [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=519CMlXJmTg&t=0m15s[/url]

[B]Jordan 38 points 1988[/B]... [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PTB13ZJIGE[/url]

[B]Jordan 35 points 1990[/B]... [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozZwNeK6chQ[/url]

[B]Jordan 45 points 1990[/B]... [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPNNdJLfKEg[/url]

[B]Jordan 39 points 1991[/B]... [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOHWXRw9UkU[/url]

[B]Jordan 44 points 1992[/B]... [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8S8cXV9E-Y[/url]
.

[quote=Hoopz2332]
3ball is about to spam[/quote]
[QUOTE=J Shuttlesworth]Nailed it[/QUOTE]He's actually right about this though. Offensive efficiency has been pretty much the same since the 80s. The style of play has changed with the rules, but teams don't have a harder time scoring than they did in the past.

[QUOTE=Hoopz2332]3ball is about to spam:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
:lol

[QUOTE=3ball]One coach giving his opinion on one specific type of play is not thread-worthy.

[/QUOTE]
but you given yours is?:kobe:

[QUOTE=Dr.J4ever]

""When Jordan was playing," Chicago coach Tom Thibodeau said, "if he was isolated at 12 feet or at the elbow, you had to keep your 'big' on the weak side. There was no way you could get him across the lane. Now that you can bring your big over to the strong side, elbow isolations become jump-shot plays. And there's usually four shooters on the floor, at a minimum, and some teams have five." [/QUOTE]

No offense, but what the f*ck is Thibs talking about? Seriously. Is he saying that teams never set their bigs to help on Jordan when he had the ball? This actually sounds plausible to people? :wtf:

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]No offense, but what the f*ck is Thibs talking about? Seriously. Is he saying that teams never set their bigs to help on Jordan when he had the ball? This actually sounds plausible to people? :wtf:[/QUOTE]He's saying they were further out of position, so when they came over to help, they were too late to cut off his path to basket.

[QUOTE=Inactive]He's saying they were further out of position, so when they came over to help, they were too late to cut off his path to basket.[/QUOTE]

Prime example of why that's bullshit:

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif[/IMG]

Jordan had to beat 2 traps/doubles (including one where the Knicks sent their PF or one of their 'bigs' to cut off his baseline drive)... only for him to be met at the basket by a 7 ft shot blocker because there was no 3-sec rule.

And if you watch the whole possession, the Bulls had to beat a full court trap zone to even get the ball past half court:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=330HeLlv52U[/url]

So again... what the f*ck is Thibs talking about? :confusedshrug:

ISH posters > Thibs in defensive basketball

He's stating what seems to be obvious but truth is most touters of the superior physical 80's/90's don't understand.

The opportunities to get to the rim and finish off isolation plays are much more limited. A physical defender like say a GP being able to dig his hand/elbow into your hip vs a wall of of defenders strongside which is more effective in stopping an individual player from getting to the rim on drives?

The answer SHOULD be obvious, but some people are just stubborn and/or dense. This doesn't necessarily mean Jordan had it easier or his impact on the game from a scoring standpoint would be less today, just his numbers and efficiency.

37 ppg on 54% from a wing player is highly unlikely in this era, especially if that wing player is on a bad team that the defense does not have to respect like the 80's BUlls. The defensive rules are such that it is easier for the defense to force the player that initiates the play to pass as opposed to taking it all the way and finishing.

Jordan would still devastate defenses though by using the MIDDLE PICK AND ROLL. This is really the only way a player can create enough scoring opportunities at the rim to score on HIGH volume and HIGH efficiency (27-30+ ppg, 50+ FG. BY having two shooters in each corner and forcing the big to have to come out higher on the floor (or if he doesn't have a full head of steam towards him sitting in the paint) you can counter the defense being able to load up strong side.

Perfect example is 05-11 Wade, cat quick, super explosive, agile, great handle, great leaper of 1 or two feet, superb body control, great touch around the basket.

Jordan would post 05-11 Wade like seasons regularly in his prime in this era, except he would score 1-3 ppg more because of his superior, vertical jumpshooting and FT shooting.

Wade from 05-11 was 27/7/5 48%

Prime Jordan would be 29-30/6/6 51%

Peak 32/7/7 52%

[QUOTE=Akhenaten]He's stating what seems to be obvious but truth is most touters of the superior physical 80's/90's don't understand.

The opportunities to get to the rim and finish off isolation plays are much more limited. A physical defender like say a GP being able to dig his hand/elbow into your hip vs a wall of of defenders strongside which is more effective in stopping an individual player from getting to the rim on drives?

The answer SHOULD be obvious, but some people are just stubborn and/or dense. This doesn't necessarily mean Jordan had it easier or his impact on the game from a scoring standpoint would be less today, just his numbers and efficiency.

37 ppg on 54% from a wing player is highly unlikely in this era, especially if that wing player is on a bad team that the defense does not have to respect like the 80's BUlls. The defensive rules are such that it is easier for the defense to force the player that initiates the play to pass as opposed to taking it all the way and finishing.

Jordan would still devastate defenses though by using the MIDDLE PICK AND ROLL. This is really the only way a player can create enough scoring opportunities at the rim to score on HIGH volume and HIGH efficiency (27-30+ ppg, 50+ FG. BY having two shooters in each corner and forcing the big to have to come out higher on the floor (or if he doesn't have a full head of steam towards him sitting in the paint) you can counter the defense being able to load up strong side.

Perfect example is 05-11 Wade, cat quick, super explosive, agile, great handle, great leaper of 1 or two feet, superb body control, great touch around the basket.

Jordan would post 05-11 Wade like seasons regularly in his prime in this era, except he would score 1-3 ppg more because of his superior, vertical jumpshooting and FT shooting.

Wade from 05-11 was 27/7/5 48%

Prime Jordan would be 29-30/6/6 51%

Peak 32/7/7 52%[/QUOTE]


:applause:

[QUOTE=navy]ISH posters > Thibs in defensive basketball[/QUOTE]

Who's claiming that? I'm just asking for a thorough explanation from someone what exactly coach Thibs is trying to say. At face value, it doesn't make a lick of sense. But obviously since I'm missing the hidden genius of his statement, I'd love for someone to expand on it and maybe show me some game footage that backs it up.

I posted a clip that refutes the claims of someone's interpretations above... surely someone can do the same in reverse, yes? :confusedshrug:

I watched a 36 year old run down Kobe Bryant basically get any look he wanted last night. He just missed most of the shots, but they were great looks for the most part.

A 27 year old MJ would have completely torched it. Hell, a prime Kobe Bryant would have torched it, and he still had 16 in the first half.

With what I watched last night (Harden getting 32), a 27 year old Mike would have had 40 without breaking a sweat. And easily could/would if he chose have had more. So it's a total GTFO to anyone who thinks prime MJ would have a tough time today.

[QUOTE=3ball]One coach giving his opinion on one specific type of play is not thread-worthy.

[/QUOTE]
The best defensive mind in basketball at the moment is thread worthy. Cant say the same for all the shit you spam.

[QUOTE=navy]The best defensive mind in basketball at the moment is thread worthy. Cant say the same for all the shit you spam.[/QUOTE]

:oldlol: :applause:

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Prime example of why that's bullshit:

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KupF3Ml.gif[/IMG]

Jordan had to beat 2 traps/doubles (including one where the Knicks sent their PF or one of their 'bigs' to cut off his baseline drive)... only for him to be met at the basket by a 7 ft shot blocker because there was no 3-sec rule.

And if you watch the whole possession, the Bulls had to beat a full court trap zone to even get the ball past half court:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=330HeLlv52U[/url]

So again... what the f*ck is Thibs talking about? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

You explained it yourself.

The big would not have rotated to stop Jordan's drive because he would have already been there and Jordan would have been more likely to attempt a long jumper.

The traps would also be different since players can freely float without the initial appearance of even guarding another man. Unlike then where they would have to either hard trap or stay at home before it was too late.

[QUOTE=Akhenaten]He's stating what seems to be obvious but truth is most touters of the superior physical 80's/90's don't understand.

The opportunities to get to the rim and finish off isolation plays are much more limited. A physical defender like say a GP being able to dig his hand/elbow into your hip vs a wall of of defenders strongside which is more effective in stopping an individual player from getting to the rim on drives?

The answer SHOULD be obvious, but some people are just stubborn and/or dense. This doesn't necessarily mean Jordan had it easier or his impact on the game from a scoring standpoint would be less today, just his numbers and efficiency.

[B]37 ppg on 54% from a wing player is highly unlikely in this era[/B], especially if that wing player is on a bad team that the defense does not have to respect like the 80's BUlls. The defensive rules are such that it is easier for the defense to force the player that initiates the play to pass as opposed to taking it all the way and finishing.

Jordan would still devastate defenses though by using the MIDDLE PICK AND ROLL. This is really the only way a player can create enough scoring opportunities at the rim to score on HIGH volume and HIGH efficiency (27-30+ ppg, 50+ FG. BY having two shooters in each corner and forcing the big to have to come out higher on the floor (or if he doesn't have a full head of steam towards him sitting in the paint) you can counter the defense being able to load up strong side.

Perfect example is 05-11 Wade, cat quick, super explosive, agile, great handle, great leaper of 1 or two feet, superb body control, great touch around the basket.

Jordan would post 05-11 Wade like seasons regularly in his prime in this era, except he would score 1-3 ppg more because of his superior, vertical jumpshooting and FT shooting.

Wade from 05-11 was 27/7/5 48%

Prime Jordan would be 29-30/6/6 51%

Peak 32/7/7 52%[/QUOTE]

[B][I]Immediately[/I][/B] after the rule changes Kobe (drafted in '96) had his career best scoring season, 35 PPG on his usual mid 40s shooting. Same exact thing happened to Iverson (drafted in '96)- had his career best year with 33 PPG on 45%, which was higher than usual. Durant [I]just [/I]had 32 PPG on 50% shooting while playing for a championship contender.

And you think it's not possible for the GOAT in his prime to do better than that in an era where no one can touch him and he has unimpeded drives to the basket? :wtf:

[QUOTE=DonDadda59][B][I]Immediately[/I][/B] after the rule changes Kobe (drafted in '96) had his career best scoring season, 35 PPG on his usual mid 40s shooting. Same exact thing happened to Iverson (drafted in '96)- had his career best year with 33 PPG on 45%, which was higher than usual. Durant [I]just [/I]had 32 PPG on 50% shooting while playing for a championship contender.

And you think it's not possible for the GOAT in his prime to do better than that in an era where no one can touch him and he has unimpeded drives to the basket? :wtf:[/QUOTE]

Kobe and Iverson were chuckers with bad squads, as was Durant (in a sense) because he had Westbrook out. Sure if Jordan played on teams like that he could put up big numbers, but the assumption Im assuming was that he wasnt.

Which is why he went to 30ppg , not higher. Which is still high scoring for any year.

[QUOTE=navy]You explained it yourself.

The big would not have rotated to stop Jordan's drive because he would have already been there and Jordan would have been more likely to attempt a long jumper.

The traps would also be different since players can freely float without the initial appearance of even guarding another man. Unlike then where they would have to either hard trap or stay at home before it was too late.[/QUOTE]

No offense, but this is just nonsensical jibberish. Thibs says defenses could send their bigs across the lane to help... I show a clip where after Jordan beats one trap, the Knicks send one of their bigs to stunt his drive and force him to pass or shoot, Jordan maneuvers around that only to be met at the rim by a 7ft shot blocker who was unhindered by the 3-sec clear out rule.

So someone is going to have to show me some evidence of any defense that was superior to that. Show me this super secret perimeter player stopping defense that MJ never saw. One example will do.

[QUOTE]Kobe and Iverson were chuckers with bad squads, as was Durant (in a sense) because he had Westbrook out. Sure if Jordan played on teams like that he could put up big numbers, but the assumption Im assuming was that he wasnt.

Which is why he went to 30ppg , not higher. Which is still high scoring for any year.[/QUOTE]

You don't find it odd that since the rule changes perimeter scoring has exploded collectively to all time records? When Jordan was winning scoring title in the 90s, he was usually the only perimeter guy in the top 5 scorers list (including when guys like Kobe and Iverson were in the league). In fact, check out who was doing the bulk of the scoring league wide when he left to play baseball.

Then flash forward to post '06... when was the last time a non perimeter player won the scoring title? When was the last time the top 5-10 scorers in the league weren't perimeter players.

But I'm supposed to believe it's harder now for those guys to get buckets?

Why?

[QUOTE=navy]ISH posters > Thibs in defensive basketball[/QUOTE]
It's a zero-sum game.

The rules have changed, so of course there are things you can do defensively in today's game that you couldn't do in previous eras.

But there are an equal number of things today's defenders [I]can't[/I] do, that they [i]could[/i] in previous eras (i.e. camp in the paint to AWAIT penetration as opposed to having to come help.... be much more physical).

This zero-sum game is evidenced in the NUMBERS - league-wide points-per-possession is the same as it was 30 years ago.

As a sidenote, I think Thibs is wrong here anyway and was probably just giving some red meat to an ignorant reporter - because it's clear as day - the defenders were already there AWAITING the penetrator, so there was no need to bring anyone over from the weak side anyway.

Like, I literally have 150 more of these showing the defender already there, waiting...

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_showing_the_of_ad54d908ed26a7b5c927e16a93d1d5fd.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=The Immortal]3ball >>>>> Thibs on basketball. Nothing to see here.


INB4 chest to chest.[/QUOTE]
Don't forget off ball passing and the most production ever produced by a producer....

read the links i posted in an earlier thread from sports illustrated. byron scott, larry bird, and ainge specifically state today's defenses are tougher and the spacing is worse, especially in the paint.

also read the bit on colangelo and the advanced defenses of today e.g. zones and traps.


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-11-2014/C1vDMk.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-11-2014/WmQJwT.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-11-2014/0C1BeO.gif[/IMG]

^^^^ absolutely HORRIBLE defense. everything is weakly contested and the 3PT line isn't even defended.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoGmMx8Ejrw[/url] (here, we see that you cannot double team a perimeter player without the ball in their hands, which in turn makes it more difficult to play help defense, hence isolation defense. no consistent double teams or traps).

jordan would still be a good player today, but his shooting percentages would all be down.

[QUOTE=navy]Kobe and Iverson were chuckers with bad squads, as was Durant (in a sense) because he had Westbrook out. Sure if Jordan played on teams like that he could put up big numbers, but the assumption Im assuming was that he wasnt.

Which is why he went to 30ppg , not higher. Which is still high scoring for any year.[/QUOTE]

just read what former players and coaches have to say about yesteryears defensive schemes:
[quote]Three key participants in the storied Lakers-Celtics rivalry who still hold lofty positions in the game—Bird, Byron Scott and Danny Ainge—talked to the Sporting News about the NBA, then and now. The three agree with the widely held perception that today’s players are superior athletically but less skilled in the basics. They admit defense is emphasized more today.
[B]“All you have to do is look at the stats,” Bird says. “There’s better defense now."[/B]

[B]“Offenses are a little more complex because the defenses have forced that,” Ainge says. “In the ’80s, defense was important but you didn’t do as much double-teaming, you didn’t do as much trapping. You played guys straight up."[/B]

[url]http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/stor...finals-meeting[/url][/quote]