Who you got?
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Who you got?
When comparing skilled big men, you always take the white guy.
[QUOTE=T_L_P]When comparing skilled big men, you always take the white guy.[/QUOTE]
Well then...Dave Cowens it is...
This is about the hardest matchup one could make. They were both so good, and rather similar in several ways.
I think I take Sabonis personally. VERY close though.
Easily Walton.
Slightly related...I wouldn't think twice about taking a prime McAdoo over a prime Sabonis, either.
if you ask Walton, he'd say Sabonis
he always speaks in those Sabonis documentaries and he claims Sabonis was the best C he ever saw play or would of been bar injuries or whatever
[QUOTE=SpanishACB]if you ask Walton, he'd say Sabonis
he always speaks in those Sabonis documentaries and he claims Sabonis was the best C he ever saw play[/QUOTE]
He must have had amnesia then...
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coHMKlx7Was&playnext=1&videos=YqP06ya0k4w[/url]
BTW, KAJ also hung games of 48 and 50 points on Walton, as well.
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]He must have had amnesia then...
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coHMKlx7Was&playnext=1&videos=YqP06ya0k4w[/url]
BTW, KAJ also hung games of 48 and 50 points on Walton, as well.[/QUOTE]
i edited it anyway but sure:
[url]http://www.nba.com/playoffs2002/Wheres_Walton__Day_15.html[/url]
[quote]The lineage then continued to Arvydas Sabonis, who was the second greatest young player I ever saw after Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. [/quote]
he follows
[quote]He was 19 years old and played like a 7-3 Larry Bird, running like the wind, shooting threes, dribbling like Magic Johnson, rebounding like Wilt Chamberlain and blocking shots like Bill Russell.[/quote]
regardless of the hyperbole, sabonis was 30/20 at the half in a european championship game against grown profesionals...
[QUOTE=SpanishACB]if you ask Walton, he'd say Sabonis
he always speaks in those Sabonis documentaries and he claims Sabonis was the best C he ever saw play or would of been bar injuries or whatever[/QUOTE]
By saying so, he'd imply that Sabonis would be the greatest overall player he's ever seen, since he's also claimed that Jabbar was the greatest overall player he's ever faced, including Jordan, Magic, Bird.
[QUOTE=SpanishACB]i edited it anyway but sure:
[url]http://www.nba.com/playoffs2002/Wheres_Walton__Day_15.html[/url][/QUOTE]
Artis Gilmore generally gave Walton all he could handle, as well.
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=gilmoar01&p2=waltobi01[/url]
and I wonder if Sabonis could have accomplished this...
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXCHDcSHBS4[/url]
[IMG]http://www.artisgilmore.com/imgs_2/Artishomeimg_sml.jpg[/IMG]
BTW, Robert Parish played against both Gilmore and Shaq, and guess which one he claimed was stronger?
(I just saw the edit)
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Artis Gilmore generally gave Walton all he could handle, as well.
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=gilmoar01&p2=waltobi01[/url]
and I wonder if Sabonis could have accomplished this...
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXCHDcSHBS4[/url]
[IMG]http://www.artisgilmore.com/imgs_2/Artishomeimg_sml.jpg[/IMG]
BTW, Robert Parish played against both Gilmore and Shaq, and guess which one he claimed was stronger?[/QUOTE]
why do you suggenly bring Gilmore to the conversation and pretend blocking a skyhook is some sort of a relevant point in this conversation?
you don't need an excuse to talk about a random old player, but this is not much of a conversation if you don't stick to an actual topic and reply with different shit every time.
[QUOTE=SpanishACB]i edited it anyway but sure:
[url]http://www.nba.com/playoffs2002/Wheres_Walton__Day_15.html[/url]
he follows
regardless of the hyperbole, sabonis was 30/20 at the half in a european championship game against grown profesionals...[/QUOTE]
just as a sidenote, who averaged more ppg in their Euro careers, Sabonis, or a 36-42 year old McAdoo?
And how about this...
[url]http://www.euroleague.net/features/voices/2011-2012/vladimir-stankovic/i/93850/6180/bob-mcadoo-the-nba-and-european-champ[/url]
[QUOTE]McAdoo played in Milan until 1990. The two following years he played in Forli with averages of 31.7 points and 9.6 rebounds. He put an end to his career in Teamsystem Fabriano in 1992-93 at 42 years old. Over seven seasons in Italy, he played 201 games, scored 5,427 points (27.3 ppg.) and averaged 9.0 boards per game. He won the Italian League twice, the Italian Cup once and one Intercontinental cup
[QUOTE=SpanishACB]why do you suggenly bring Gilmore to the conversation and pretend blocking a skyhook is some sort of a relevant point in this conversation?
you don't need an excuse to talk about a random old player, but this is not much of a conversation if you don't stick to an actual topic and reply with different shit every time.[/QUOTE]
Basically because you claimed that Walton said that Sabonis was the best (well, second best player) he ever saw.
Hell, and OLD Gilmore, covering TEN straight H2H's with a young Hakeem, averaged 24 ppg on a .677 FG% against Olajuwon.
I don't think there is any question that a prime Gilmore would have had his way with a prime Arvydas.
To be honest, Sabonis is one of the most over-rated players on this forum.
I could come up with a LONG list of NBA centers, and in their primes, that I would take over a prime Arvydas.
I think a closer comparison would be a prime Dave Cowens and a prime Sabonis.
And I likely would take Cowens.
that's most likely because the only footage you've seen is of a washed up injured Sabonis
[QUOTE=SpanishACB]that's most likely because the only footage you've seen is of a washed up injured Sabonis[/QUOTE]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUz3C0p-Yso[/url]
A young, skinny Robinson, at nowhere near his peak, outplayed what was probably a peak Sabonis.
BTW, Robinson was CLEARLY more athletic.
Russell
Thurmond
Reed
Lanier
Gilmore
McAdoo
Walton
Cowens
Moses
Ewing
Robinson
Shaq
KAJ
Wilt
That's a start, and I likely would take players like Cowens and Hayes over a prime Sabonis, as well.
There are probably some that I unintentionally left out, too.
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Russell
Thurmond
Reed
Lanier
Gilmore
McAdoo
Walton
Cowens
Moses
Ewing
Robinson
Shaq
KAJ
Wilt
That's a start, and I likely would take players like Cowens and Hayes over a prime Sabonis, as well.
There are probably some that I unintentionally left out, too.[/QUOTE]
Hakeem's a pretty big omission
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]I could come up with a LONG list of NBA centers, and in their primes, that I would take over a prime Arvydas.[/QUOTE]
Based on what?
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]Hakeem's a pretty big omission[/QUOTE]
Oh yes...thanks.
I did a quick list in my head.
[QUOTE=Uncle Drew]Based on what?[/QUOTE]
Based on what we know.
A nowhere near his prime Robinson outplayed a peak Sabonis. And a decade later he was wiping the floor with him.
Shaq just crushed Robinson, Hakeem, and Ewing in his career H2H's, and destroyed an old Sabonis.
McAdoo at age 40 was a better scorer in the Euroleague than Sabonis ever was.
A 39 year old Kareem annihilated a 24 year old Hakeem in their H2H's.
An aging Thurmond outplayed a PEAK Kareem in the '72 playoffs, and overall, in their career H2H's, held a PEAK KAJ to a .447 FG%.
Moses just pounded Kareem in their 40 career H2H's.
A prime Chamberlain was FAR more dominant against the same centers that a PEAK Kareem faced.
you make arguments based off one game or on even one action of the game and don't feel silly when you make those big posts?
by the way, the thread is now about wilt
[QUOTE=SpanishACB]you make arguments based off one game or on even one action of the game and don't feel silly when you make those big posts?
by the way, the thread is now about wilt[/QUOTE]
Not at all. It's about ALL of the truly great centers. And a prime Sabonis would be well down that list.
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]A nowhere near his prime Robinson outplayed a peak Sabonis..[/QUOTE]
You mean the game in '88 when Sabonis just came back from an achilles tendon injury?
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]And a decade later he was wiping the floor with him.[/QUOTE]
You mean when Sabonis finally decided to come to the NBA, while being broken down, and it being a miracle for him to basically walk, let alone play?
[QUOTE=Uncle Drew]You mean the game in '88 when Sabonis just came back from an achilles tendon injury?[/QUOTE]
Alright...tell us exactly when this "peak" Sabonis ever played a game, then. And please give us the list of true NBA centers that he outplayed in that time frame.
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Alright...tell us exactly when this "peak" Sabonis ever played a game[/QUOTE]
I don't know. If you don't mind, I wasn't watching European basketball in the 80's. I'm just keeping to the facts.
But comparing a broken down player to Shaq, the most dominant ever, and, at his peak, the greatest to ever play, seems pretty unfair to me.
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Alright...tell us exactly when this "peak" Sabonis ever played a game, then. And please give us the list of true NBA centers that he outplayed in that time frame.[/QUOTE]
there was no peak sabonis in the NBA, I thought american NBA fans were aware of this?
there was just a broken down player, think of Kobe, just worse, doing what Duncan has been doing the past couple of years with added range
[QUOTE=Uncle Drew]I don't know, If you don't mind, I wasn't watching European basketball in the 80's. I'm just keeping to the facts.
But comparing a broken down player to Shaq, the most dominant ever, and, at his peak, the greatest to ever play, seems pretty unfair to me.[/QUOTE]
You asked me, "based on what?"
I responded by what we KNOW.
Show us a peak Sabonis dominating someone of the calibre of a peak David Robinson.
Was Sabonis an outstanding NBA center? Yes, even a well past his peak Arvydas played well in his short NBA career. But there are those here who would have us believe that he was a Top-10 center of all-time. I just don't have ANY evidence to support that.
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]I just don't have ANY evidence to support that.[/QUOTE]
No one does. At the time Sabonis really was at his peak, without injuries, most people didn't even know he existed. Guess he's just as mythical as Wilt was.
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]You asked me, "based on what?"
I responded by what we KNOW.
Show us a peak Sabonis dominating someone of the calibre of a peak David Robinson.
Was Sabonis an outstanding NBA center? Yes, even a well past his peak Arvydas played well in his short NBA career. But there are those here who would have us believe that he was a Top-10 center of all-time. I just don't have ANY evidence to support that.[/QUOTE]
you need all this h2h and arbitrary bullshit to rate a player it's as if you cannot simply watch the game and understand it
go get some actual pre-injury Sabonis footage, now, regardless of this dominance stat you talk about, regardless of h2h and who he blocked and who he didn't, can't you realize the level, ability and overall game of the guy is only matched by the likes of Larry Bird and never seen in the C position?
sure, he was playing in the European competitions when he was healthy, which at the time was closer to the NBA than you most likely realize, but there weren't as many phisical specimens, either way, how that's stopping you from admiring a player of this caliber is amazing.
hating on sabonis doesn't do wilt any good, so i'm not sure what your goal is here
[QUOTE=Uncle Drew]No one does. At the time Sabonis really was at his peak, without injuries, most people didn't even know he existed. Guess he's just as mythical as Wilt was.[/QUOTE]
We KNOW how dominant Chamberlain was.
Just take a look at the NBA RECORD BOOK. And yes, we have a TON of evidence of a prime Chamberlain just CRUSHING the best centers of his era, including Russell, Thurmond, Reed, and Bellamy. Even an OLD Wilt was outplaying centers like McAdoo and Lanier. And we have video footage of the '72 NBA-ABA All-Star game, in which a 36 year old Wilt was outplaying a young Gilmore.
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]We KNOW how dominant Chamberlain was.
Just take a look at the NBA RECORD BOOK. And yes, we have a TON of evidence of a prime Chamberlain just CRUSHING the best centers of his era, including Russell, Thurmond, Reed, and Bellamy. Even an OLD Wilt was outplaying centers like McAdoo and Lanier. And we have video footage of the '72 NBA-ABA All-Star game, in which a 36 year old Wilt was outplaying a young Gilmore.[/QUOTE]
Relax dude, I was just joking, no need to jump out of your panties bro.
Walton.
In the all around sense, Walton is as good of a center who has EVER PLAYED. He combined rebounding, scoring, passing, and defense better than any center. Kareem, Wilt, Hakeem, and Robinson would round out my top five in the all around sense. I haven't seen enough of Sabonis in his prime on film for me to take him above Walton. But for Sabonis to be 7'3 and do the things he could do at a young age, I CERTAINLY don't think he was far off from Walton.
But once again, Sabonis was doing that in the Euroleague while Walton was doing it in the greatest basketball league of all time. So I gotta go Big Bill easily one of the ten greatest centers peak wise of all time. In many ways, he was like Duncan but ACTUALLY labeled a center as his primary position.
Never watched a prime sabonis, but judging how good an old (and presumably much more than when he was in his prime) Sabonis was in the NBA, probably Sabonis.
sabonis of course
I take Walton, just due to the fact that I have stated many time. There is no player that I enjoyed watching as much as Bill.
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS][url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUz3C0p-Yso[/url]
A young, skinny Robinson, at nowhere near his peak, outplayed what was probably a peak Sabonis.
BTW, Robinson was CLEARLY more athletic.[/QUOTE]
No way Robinson outplayed Sabonis. I thought they were pretty evenly matched. 2 very different players though. Robinson is clearly more athletic and a miss match for Sabonis in terms of quickness. Sabonis did however play after a bad injury which made him look pretty slow, but even fully healthy he wasn't the athlete Robinson was. He was, however, more skilled and much smarter at the time and in my opinion a better player.
Also I think they didn't go enough one against another to suggest one outplayed the other. The Soviets run their game through high post and didn't even run post ups for Sabonis the way team USA did for Robinson and Reed.
Robinson was the more active player of the two in terms of attacking the basket, but didn't score much directly against Sabonis. He did some damage in the first half, but he only made one left hook in the post against Sabonis. He missed one Sabonis contested and then he also made one of the free throw jumpers Sabonis let him take all game (took only 2 though). Robinson did block Sabonis' hook though and got to the line out of a post up situation once. He didn't even play much in the second half because he was in foul trouble. He only scored 3 points in the second half. The first came of the free throw line 7 minutes before the game ended. He scored the other after offensive rebound when Sabonis was completely exhausted and couldn't rebound anymore and Robinson came straight of the bench.
Sabonis on the other hand displayed elite playmaking, passing and rebounding. He was also the only Soviet player who could somehow deal with athleticism of Reed and Robinson and also played heavy minutes. He blocked a great amount of shots as well. I think he blocked more shots than the Whole US team combined (or at least very close).
The most important in my opinion, Sabonis was huge in securing the victory for his team. He grabbed key rebounds and made a couple of great passes that allowed for easy USSR baskets. He also contested Majerle's shot which would've tied the game and tipped it to one of his team mates for a rebound and also made a very nice inside pass to Rimas Kurtinaitis that led to 2 free throws.
You can see how important Sabonis' rim protection was when he was in foul trouble at the end of the game and USA almost makes a comeback. One could watch the end of the game and say Sabonis was awful on defense, but in my opinion this is a showcase of how important he really was to his team and how high his basketball IQ was. Both gassed and in foul trouble he made a couple of defensive plays that won them the game.