Accomplishments Thru 29 Years Old: MJ vs. Lebron

.
[SIZE="3"][U]Regular Season Thru Age 30:[/U][/SIZE]

[B]MJ[/B]: 32.3 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 5.9 APG, 2.7 SPG, 1.0 BPG, 51.6 FG%, 58.9 TS%, 121 ORtg, 29.8 PER, 0.274 WS/48
[B]LB[/B]: 27.3 PPG, 7.1 RPG, 6.9 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.8 BPG, 49.6 FG%, 58.1 TS%, 116 ORtg, 27.7 PER, 0.240 WS/48


[SIZE="3"][U]Playoffs Thru Age 30:[/U][/SIZE]

[B]MJ[/B]: 34.7 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 6.6 APG, 2.3 SPG, 1.0 BPG, 50.1 FG%, 58.1 TS%, 119 ORtg, 29.6 PER, 0.258 WS/48
[B]LB[/B]: 28.2 PPG, 8.8 RPG, 6.7 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.9 BPG, 47.3 FG%, 56.5 TS%, 114 ORtg, 27.4 PER, 0.234 WS/48


[SIZE="3"][U]Finals Thru Age 30:[/U][/SIZE]

[B]MJ[/B]: 36.3 PPG, 6.6 RPG, 7.9 APG, 2.0 SPG, 0.76 BPG, 52.6% FG, 40.7% 3 PT
[B]LB[/B]: 26.4 PPG, 9.6 RPG, 6.9 APG, 1.8 SPG, 0.54 BPG, 44.6 FG%, 31.9% 3 PT





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[SIZE="3"][U]Career Playoff Averages:[/U][/SIZE]

[B]MJ[/B]: 33.4 PPG, 6.4 RPG, 5.7 APG, 2.1 SPG, 0.9 BPG, 48.7 FG%, 56.8 TS%, 118 ORtg, 28.6 PER, 0.255 WS/48
[B]LB[/B]: 28.2 PPG, 8.8 RPG, 6.7 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.9 BPG, 47.3 FG%, 56.5 TS%, 114 ORtg, 27.4 PER, 0.234 WS/48


[SIZE="3"][U]Career Finals Averages:[/U][/SIZE]

[B]MJ[/B]: 33.6 PPG, 6.0 RPG, 6.0 APG, 1.8 SPG, 0.65 BPG, 48.1% FG, 36.8% 3 PT
[B]LB[/B]: 26.4 PPG, 9.6 RPG, 6.9 APG, 1.8 SPG, 0.54 BPG, 44.6 FG%, 31.9% 3 PT
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[IMG]http://www.littlebigpicture.co.uk/media/2013/June/voigt-dance-5.gif[/IMG]

Fakkitness: 3Ball vs Elton John

3balls' accomplishments through his life:




















Yup.

You said "Accomplishments" but then you just listed stats. :confusedshrug:

Yes, Jordan has better stats, but what about the accomplishments?

[QUOTE=DatAsh]

You said "Accomplishments" but then you just listed stats. :confusedshrug:

Yes, Jordan has better stats, but what about the accomplishments?

[/QUOTE]
you're missing the point of the thread.

if the number of trophies that two guys have is close to the same, but one guy had to carry his team waaaaaaaaaaaay more, and had waaaaaaaaaaaay less help, than who cares what the accomplishments were.

Stop. This is straight embarrassing for you.

It's a lost cause, Lebron is well on his way to surpassing MJ as the GOAT when all is said and done. Accept it.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]You said "Accomplishments" but then you just listed stats. :confusedshrug: [/QUOTE]

:lol

[QUOTE=3ball][B]you're missing the point of the thread.
[/B]
if the number of trophies that two guys have is close to the same, but one guy had to carry his team waaaaaaaaaaaay more, and had waaaaaaaaaaaay less help, than who cares what the accomplishments were.[/QUOTE]


[IMG]http://replygif.net/i/154.gif[/IMG]

How can anyone miss the point of your threads?

A black former NBA ccok...your mouth. The point.

[IMG]http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/who_gives_a_shit.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=DatAsh]

Yes, Jordan has better stats

[/QUOTE]
Did you notice how thru age 29, Jordan destroys Lebron in career playoff AND Finals assist average?

For their [I]careers[/I] in the playoffs and Finals, it's pretty much even (5.7 to 6.4 in playoffs, and 6.0 to 6.4 in the Finals).

[B][COLOR="Red"][U][I]what coaches say[/I][/U][/COLOR][/B]:
Three key participants in the storied Lakers-Celtics rivalry who still hold lofty positions in the game

[QUOTE=Dragic4Life]Stop. This is straight embarrassing for you.

It's a lost cause, Lebron is well on his way to surpassing MJ as the GOAT when all is said and done. Accept it.[/QUOTE]
First sentence, Yes.
Second sentence, No.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24][B][COLOR="Red"][U][I]what coaches say[/I][/U][/COLOR][/B]:
Three key participants in the storied Lakers-Celtics rivalry who still hold lofty positions in the game

It should be fun to watch Jordan's statistical advantage of Lebron WIDEN as time goes on and as Lebron keeps needing more and more nights off.. :D

.
[B]Number of 45+ point games against Top 5 Defenses:[/B]


Lebron: 3

Kobe: 7

MJ: 26


Source: [url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=255273[/url]

[QUOTE=Smoke117]True. Jordan did have his best seasons vs weak, *****, pathetic, laughable, 80s defenses.[/QUOTE]

i wouldn't say all defenses from that era were laughable, but on average, none were even comparable to the 2k and on era. like.. the difference is clear as day.

Weak defence era... Pointless comparisons

Finals losses.
bronze 3
Jordan 0

[QUOTE=3ball]It should be fun to watch Jordan's statistical advantage of Lebron WIDEN as time goes on and as Lebron keeps needing more and more nights off.. :D[/QUOTE]

Why is that fun?

[QUOTE=mehyaM24][B][COLOR="Red"][U][I]what coaches say[/I][/U][/COLOR][/B]:
Three key participants in the storied Lakers-Celtics rivalry who still hold lofty positions in the game

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]i wouldn't say all defenses from that era were laughable, but on average, none were even comparable to the 2k and on era. like.. the difference is clear as day.[/QUOTE]

lol...you can't take a post I make in a 3ball thread seriously... :biggums: He's a clown...and a clown entertains you; Not the other way around.

.
[B]Why Pace Was Faster Back When Teams Only Shot 2-Pointers[/B]


The only reason teams run offense is to get OPEN SHOTS.. Two-pointers don't need to be as open as 3-pointers, so they requires less offense to be ran, which sped the game up in previous eras and results in higher scoring.. In general, less setup is required to get a 2-pointer than a 3-pointer.

[I]Otoh, generally, 3-pointers must be SET UP by running offense.. and in today's game, a perpetual pursuit of 3-pointers is necessary on every play to maintain the spacing... this bogs the game down bigtime, results in less scoring, and results in less natural, random on-court movements as well (it looks more staged instead).[/I]

Ultimately, the 3-pointers provide spacing, but that spacing takes TIME to both set up and maintain.. However, if the 3-point line was removed tomorrow, teams wouldn't need to invest this time.. Instead, they would start running up and down like they used to, playing instinctively and settling for contested two's that required skill to obtain and convert.. Also, players wouldn't be required to camp behind the 3-point line or keep the lane clear (assuming defensive 3 seconds was also removed), so on-court movements would also look more organic and less staged.

Historically, pace has declined with the increase in 3-point shooting.
.

[QUOTE=mehytaM24]

ORtg says more teams in the 90s scored more points per 100 possessions - what teams average on each end

[/QUOTE]
Today's Milwaukee Bucks have lower (better) DRtg than the 1989 Bad Boys, but obviously, that doesn't mean it's harder to score on the Bucks.. Team ORtg and Opponent DRtg (they're the same number) were slightly higher in previous eras because of the way the stat is calculated - the higher proportion of two-pointers taken in previous eras had higher offensive rebounding and FT rates, which increases ORtg and DRtg in the calculation.

On the flipside, today's game takes far more 3-pointers, which have a lower offensive rebounding and FT rate, and therefore [I]decrease[/I] ORtg and DRtg in the calculation.

The link below goes to a summary table of league-wide data from basketball-reference.com.. The last 6 columns show various factors that drive ORtg (including offensive rebounding rate and FT rate).

The table clearly shows how the significantly higher offensive rebounding and FT rates of previous eras (due to the much higher proportion of two-pointers) contributed to higher ORtg and DRtg.

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html[/url]

The table speaks for itself - pretty much shows literally everything, including how a higher number of 3-pointers is correlated with [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11073242&postcount=23][u]slower pace[/u][/url].

[QUOTE=mehyaM24][B][COLOR="Red"][U][I]what coaches say[/I][/U][/COLOR][/B]:
Three key participants in the storied Lakers-Celtics rivalry who still hold lofty positions in the game

.
[B][SIZE="3"]MJ's Stats in Each Playoff Series vs. Top 5 Defense:[/SIZE][/B]


MIL 1985 1st Rd (59-23, #2 ranked defense.. 29.3 pts.. 5.8 rebs.. 8.6 assists.. 56.5% TS.. 43.6% FG)

BOS 1986 1st Rd (67-15, #1 ranked defense.. 43.7.. 6.3.. 5.7.. 58.4% TS.. 50.5% FG)

CLE 1988 1st Rd (42-40, #5 ranked defense... 45.2.. 5.4.. 4.8.. 63.2% TS.. 55.9% FG)

DET 1988 2nd Rd (54-28, #2-ranked defense... 27.8.. 8.8.. 4.6.. 54.9% TS.. 49.1% FG)

CLE 1989 1st Rd (57-25, #2 ranked defense... 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 59.8% TS.. 51.8% FG)

DET 1989 ECF (62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 59.8% TS.. 46.0% FG)

DET 1990 ECF (62-20, #2 ranked defense... 32.1.. 7.1.. 6.3.. 56.6% TS.. 46.7% FG)

DET 1991 ECF (52-30, #4 ranked defense.. 29.8.. 5.3.. 7.0.. 64.6% TS.. 53.5% FG)

LAL 1991 Finals (58-24, #5 ranked defense... 31.2.. 6.6.. 11.4.. 61.2% TS.. 55.2% FG)

POR 1992 Finals (57-25, #3 ranked defense.. 35.8.. 4.8.. 6.5.. 61.7% TS.. 52.6% FG)

NYK 1992 ECF (51-31, #2 ranked defense.. 31.3.. 5.7.. 4.3.. 53.3% TS.. 47.7% FG)

NYK 1993 ECF (60-22, #1 ranked defense.. 32.2.. 6.2.. 7.0.. 52.2% TS.. 40.4% FG)


[B]BASEBALL (AA Outfielder):[/B] .202 BA.. 436 AB.. 88 H.. 3 HR.. 46 R.. 51 RBI


NYK 1996 ECF (47-35.. 4th ranked defense.. 36.0.. 4.8.. 4.4.. 53.4% TS.. 44.2% FG)

SEA 1996 Finals (64-18.. #2 ranked defense.. 27.3.. 5.3.. 4.2.. 53.8%.. 41.5% FG)

ATL 1997 2nd Rd (56-26.. #3 ranked defense.. 26.6.. 10.2.. 5.2.. 50.6% TS.. 45.4% FG)

MIA 1997 ECF (61-21.. #1 ranked defense.. 30.2.. 8.6.. 2.6.. 47.5% TS.. 38.7% FG)

IND 1998 ECF (58-24.. #5 ranked defense.. 31.7.. 5.7.. 4.1.. 55.6% TS.. 46.7% FG)

If you're going to rip LeBron, I don't think career stats is the way to go. The guys stats are insane.



Keep it simple and do what the other trolls do, and just post 2/5.

[QUOTE=sekachu]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOS1qNTWb70[/url]

Are you sure?:biggums:

[/QUOTE]
That vid shows a random game with the standard double and triple-teaming Jordan faced, [I]but it also shows how much harder Jordan was to double team[/I] - Jordan was always playing off-ball and he scored most of his points off-ball, so he wasn't the easy target to double team that ball-dominant players are.

Of course, in today's game, the paint and at-rim percentages of all players are inflated compared to previous eras, due to the spacing and rule changes [url=http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html][u]designed to[/u][/url] make penetration easier and open up the middle of the floor.

Otoh, in Jordan's day, defenders waited in the paint on penetration and could help from closer distances on the post because there was no spacing and paint-camping was legal.. all coaches in previous eras foolishly ran offenses that didn't shoot threes and positioned players close to the rim, which [i]activated[/i] legal-paint camping, as stipulated in [url=http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html][COLOR="Blue"]Rule 2b[/COLOR][/url] of the Illegal Defense Guidelines - this rule allowed defenders to paint-camp with no time restriction if their man was in the paint already, or within 3 feet of either side of the paint.

The legal paint-camping, no spacing, and much higher physicality made for a tougher brand of basketball and superior paint defense than what we have today.
.

3ball, what do you take from this video?

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM_eCnTNt1Q[/url]

[QUOTE=hahaitme]3ball, what do you take from this video?

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM_eCnTNt1Q[/url][/QUOTE]

Its wrong because it disagrees with his opinion

[QUOTE=hahaitme]

3ball, what do you take from this video?

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM_eCnTNt1Q[/url]

[/QUOTE]
the video says that some players don't like zone defense - that's not meaningful.

[I]all[/I] players think it's harder to score against no-spacing.. [I]all[/I] players think it's harder to score against higher physicality, hand-checking and paint-camping.

and there are far more videos saying these things, because all players think these things, not just a few.

also, today's NBA allows zone defense, EXCEPT inside the paint - in the paint, players must remain within [url=http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html][u]armslength[/u][/url] of their man [I]at all times[/I].. this is the very definition of man-to-man defense - a very [I]strict[/I] version of man-to-man.

otoh, in previous eras, the NBA [I]allowed[/I] a zone inside the paint - defenders DIDN'T have to be within armslength of their man to remain in the paint and could legally paint-camp.. all coaches in previous eras foolishly ran offenses that didn't shoot threes and positioned players close to the rim instead, which [i]activated[/i] legal-paint camping, as stipulated in [url=http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html][COLOR="Blue"]Rule 2b[/COLOR][/url] of the Illegal Defense Guidelines - this rule allowed defenders to paint-camp with no time restriction if their man was in the paint already, or within 3 feet of either side.

paint-camping IS playing a zone inside the paint.

Tell me this niqqa didn't 5-star his own thread.:facepalm

[QUOTE]You said "Accomplishments" but then you just listed stats.

Yes, Jordan has better stats, but what about the accomplishments?[/QUOTE]

Exactly. :oldlol:

[B][U]Accomplishments, not stats, through 29 years old[/U][/B]

Rings: MJ 2, LJ 2
MVP's: LJ 4, MJ 3
FMVP: LJ 2, MJ 2
Finals: LJ 5, MJ 2
ECF's: LJ 6, MJ 4
ECSF's: LJ 9, MJ 5
DPOY: MJ 1, LJ 0
All-NBA 1st team: LJ 8, MJ 7
ROY: both were ROY
All-Defense 1st team: MJ 5, LJ 5
Best record: LJ 3, MJ 1
Losing seasons: MJ 3, LJ 1
Missed playoffs: LJ 1, MJ 0
First round losses: MJ 3, LJ 0

Some key points to remember when looking at the above:

*LeBron entered the league at 19 while MJ did so at 21, although LeBron did nothing in terms of all-time rankings in his first two years and had his by far two worst team seasons in his first two years. Since LeBron turned 21, his teams have, with him on the court, been no worse than a 50 win pace and a second round appearance.
*Jordan missed almost all of the 86' season.
*Jordan accomplished exactly nothing in terms of all-time rankings at ages 31 and 32. LeBron presumably will add to his legacy during those years.
*Jordan was excellent in his mid-30's. Jordan from ages 33-35 won 3 rings, 2 MVP's, 3 FMVP's and his team had the best record each year.
*Jordan did nothing in terms of all-time rankings from ages 35-40.

So LeBron actually is ahead of MJ's pace at this point. However, he will have to achieve a lot to match what MJ did from 1996-1998 alone. He presumably will, though, have the advantage of not retiring prematurely multiple times. LeBron will add to his legacy in 2016 and 2017 and he, depending on how he ages, could also move the needle from ages 35-40 (look at Kareem or Duncan as examples). In other words, while LeBron would have to keep up a strong pace to match MJ from 1996-1998 the likelihood that LeBron will not flake out and retire on a whim twice will give him extra years to add to his legacy that MJ deprived himself of.

LeBron definitely has an opportunity to put together a resume equal to or superior to Jordan's--and this is what has MJ stans like 3ball shook. :D

[QUOTE]“All you have to do is look at the stats,” Bird says. “There’s better defense now."
“In the ’80s, defense was important but you didn’t do as much double-teaming, you didn’t do as much trapping. You played guys straight up. Defense is more focused upon in today's game. "[/QUOTE]

Scoring is down substantially from the 80's. Comparing raw scoring stats from the 80's to the 21st century is as disingenuous as doing so from the 60's to the 80's. MJ stans never do that because then Wilt mops the floor with MJ.

You know someone's good if you have Jordan stans writing essays trying to disparage him.

[QUOTE=3ball].
[SIZE="3"][B]Whatever the Accomplishments Are, Far Less Was Required From Lebron for His:[/B][/SIZE]


[SIZE="3"][U]Regular Season Thru Age 29:[/U][/SIZE]

[B]LB[/B]: 27.4 PPG, 7.1 RPG, 6.9 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.8 BPG, 49.6 FG%, 58.1 TS%, 116 ORtg, 27.7 PER, 0.243 WS/48
[B]MJ[/B]: 32.3 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 5.9 APG, 2.7 SPG, 1.0 BPG, 51.6 FG%, 58.9 TS%, 121 ORtg, 29.8 PER, 0.274 WS/48


[SIZE="3"][U]Playoffs Thru Age 29:[/U][/SIZE]

[B]LB[/B]: 28.0 PPG, 8.4 RPG, 6.4 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.9 BPG, 48.2 FG%, 57.8 TS%, 116 ORtg, 27.7 PER, 0.242 WS/48
[B]MJ[/B]: 34.7 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 6.6 APG, 2.3 SPG, 1.0 BPG, 50.1 FG%, 58.1 TS%, 119 ORtg, 29.6 PER, 0.258 WS/48


[SIZE="3"][U]Finals Thru Age 29:[/U][/SIZE]

[B]LB[/B]: 24.1 PPG, 8.7 RPG, 6.4 APG, 1.8 SPG, 0.55 BPG, 46.3 FG%, 31.2% 3 PT
[B]MJ[/B]: 36.3 PPG, 6.6 RPG, 7.9 APG, 2.0 SPG, 0.76 BPG, 52.6% FG, 40.7% 3 PT


The above can ONLY mean that Lebron had a TON more help than Jordan.. :confusedshrug:
.[/QUOTE]

Another solid post by 3ball.

Jordan = 6/6 GOAT that molded Pippen into a winner

Bron = 2/5 Colluder beta that will never be GOAT

Deal with it.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24][B][COLOR="Red"][U][I]what coaches say[/I][/U][/COLOR][/B]:
Three key participants in the storied Lakers-Celtics rivalry who still hold lofty positions in the game

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^3ball rn

[QUOTE=3ball].
[SIZE="3"][B]Whatever the Accomplishments Are, Far Less Was Required From Lebron for His:[/B][/SIZE]


[SIZE="3"][U]Regular Season Thru Age 29:[/U][/SIZE]

[B]LB[/B]: 27.4 PPG, 7.1 RPG, 6.9 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.8 BPG, 49.6 FG%, 58.1 TS%, 116 ORtg, 27.7 PER, 0.243 WS/48
[B]MJ[/B]: 32.3 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 5.9 APG, 2.7 SPG, 1.0 BPG, 51.6 FG%, 58.9 TS%, 121 ORtg, 29.8 PER, 0.274 WS/48


[SIZE="3"][U]Playoffs Thru Age 29:[/U][/SIZE]

[B]LB[/B]: 28.0 PPG, 8.4 RPG, 6.4 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.9 BPG, 48.2 FG%, 57.8 TS%, 116 ORtg, 27.7 PER, 0.242 WS/48
[B]MJ[/B]: 34.7 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 6.6 APG, 2.3 SPG, 1.0 BPG, 50.1 FG%, 58.1 TS%, 119 ORtg, 29.6 PER, 0.258 WS/48


[SIZE="3"][U]Finals Thru Age 29:[/U][/SIZE]

[B]LB[/B]: 24.1 PPG, 8.7 RPG, 6.4 APG, 1.8 SPG, 0.55 BPG, 46.3 FG%, 31.2% 3 PT
[B]MJ[/B]: 36.3 PPG, 6.6 RPG, 7.9 APG, 2.0 SPG, 0.76 BPG, 52.6% FG, 40.7% 3 PT


The above can ONLY mean that Lebron had a TON more help than Jordan.. :confusedshrug:
.[/QUOTE]
If this is to say the college player Jordan that retired , and could of had 9 chips , but only had 6 compared to Lebrons two.... and comparing his career stats to Lebron still proves his GOAT status over players like Kobe stands, I will see 5 more years of these threads. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Straight_Ballin]Another solid post by 3ball.

Jordan = 6/6 GOAT that molded Pippen into a winner

Bron = 2/5 Colluder beta that will never be GOAT

Deal with it.[/QUOTE]

Molded [I]Pippen[/I] into a winner? When was Pippen ever a loser? He did not even have a losing season in his career until his final season when he was 38 barely played due to injuries. Pippen did not lose in the first round until his 12th season. Pippen was in the conference finals 9 times in 17 years. Yet Jordan made Pippen a winner? I think you have it backwards. It was MJ who was a perennial loser prior to Pippen.

Speaking of "molding" a winner, is that not what LeBron did with Bosh and what he is now doing with Love and Irving? Like Pippen's teammate, these are guys who had no team success prior to pairing with LeBron.