Official SG comparison thread: 2006 vs. 1997 vs. 1990

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[COLOR="White"].................[/COLOR][SIZE="3"][B]SG's with 15.0 or Greater PER[/B][/SIZE]


[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR][B][U]2006[/U][/B][COLOR="White"]...............................[/COLOR][B][U]1997[/U][/B][COLOR="White"]............................[/COLOR][B][U]1990[/U][/B]

Kobe Bryant..................... Michael Jordan................ Michael Jordan
Dwayne Wade.................. Clyde Drexler.................. Clyde Drexler
Manu Ginobili................... Mitch Richmond............... Joe Dumars
Ray Allen......................... Reggie Miller.................. Reggie Miller
Vince Carter......................Eddie Jones.................... Mitch Richmond
Michael Redd.................... Allan Houston................. Ronaldo Blackmon
Jason Richardson............... Nick Anderson................ Ron Harper
Richard Hamilton............... Latrell Sprewell.............. Alvin Robertson
Joe Johnson...................... Jim Jackson................... Dale Ellis
Mike Miller....................... Steve Smith................... Hersey Hawkins
Bonzi Wells....................... Kendall Gill.................... Fat Lever
Jamal Crawford................. Isiah Rider.................... Jeff Hornacek
Morris Peterson................. Bobby Phills................... Ricky Pierce
Leandro Barbosa................ Jerry Stackhouse............ Jeff Malone


With no spacing in previous eras, the option of running offense to shift the spaced-out defenders and get an open shot wasn't available, so players had to settle for contested shots more often.. When teams don't run as much offense and settle for contested shots instead, pace and shot volume increase.

The volume shooting associated with 2-pointer basketball and the wider repertoires needed to navigate defenders in closer proximity enabled previous era wings to put more pressure on defenders than today's wings - higher volume and wider repertoires meant previous eras wings were more of a threat to have a big game than today's 3-and-D players.

Otoh, today's game requires a slower pace - the spacing necessitates running more offense to shift the spaced-out defenders and set up open 3-point looks.. Also, smaller offensive repertoires are necessary for the wider lanes provided by 3-point shooting and spacing-out environments.. Naturally, it's not surprise that today's 3-and-D wings are less of a threat to go off for a big game and pose less of a threat individually to the defense.. Again, this is in contrast to the [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11188520&postcount=37][u][I]more diverse mid-range games[/I][/u][/url] of previous eras, [I][I]which enabled repeated contested shots[/I][/I] and therefore less time-consuming offense.
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[IMG]http://i60.tinypic.com/qovipv.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Lebron23][IMG]http://i60.tinypic.com/qovipv.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
:roll: :roll:

2006 >>>


Why are you using '97? Why not '95 or '96?

[QUOTE=aj1987]:roll: :roll:

2006 >>>


Why are you using '97? Why not '95 or '96?[/QUOTE]
1997 is a strong guard year.. including [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=354794][u]point guards[/u][/url].

So 1997 can match 2006, but again, I think 1990 clearly reaches a higher level of two-way ability than either.. Comparing the [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=353319][u]forwards[/u][/url] is ridiculous.

[QUOTE=3ball]1997 is a strong guard year.. including [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=354794][u]point guards[/u][/url].

So 1997 can match 2006, but again, I think 1990 clearly reaches a higher level of two-way ability than either.. Comparing the [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=353319][u]forwards[/u][/url] is ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
See, that's why you're a cherry picking retard. The '00's were consistently good with F's and G's. More so than the '90's. That's why you resort to using single years. Otherwise everyone would see your posts (they still do) for the garbage they are.

[QUOTE=aj1987]See, that's why you're a cherry picking retard. The '00's were consistently good with F's and G's. More so than the '90's. That's why you resort to using single years. Otherwise everyone would see your posts (they still do) for the garbage they are.[/QUOTE]
It's not cherry-picking because I'm using the [I]supposed strongest year[/I] of modern SG's of 2006, and exposing the myth of new fans who it's the best SG class.

Ditto on point guards - I'm using the strongest year (2014 or this year) and comparing it to a reasonably strong year from a prior era - however, I do think 2014 has the distinct edge at PG.. But at virtually every other position, they're well behind.
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[QUOTE=3ball]It's not cherry-picking because I'm using the [I]supposed strongest year[/I] of modern SG's of 2006, and exposing the myth of new fans who it's the best SG class.

Ditto on point guards - I'm using the strongest year (2014 or this year) and comparing it to a reasonably strong year from a prior era.. With regards to PG's, I do think 2014 has the distinct edge.. But at virtually every other position, they are well behind.[/QUOTE]
:facepalm

God, you're dumb. Kobe played a shit ton years against ELITE competition at his position. More than MJ.

[QUOTE=aj1987]

[SIZE="4"]Kobe played against ELITE competition at his position. More than MJ.[/SIZE]

[/QUOTE]
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[B]Kobe's Best Defenders (All-NBA Defense Only)[/B]

Shawn Marion
Andre Igoudala
Paul George
Gerald Wallace
Bruce Bowen
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirelinko
Lebron James
Jimmy Butler
Luol Deng
Ron Artest
Thabo Sefalosha
Raja Bell
Tony Allen
Shane Battier
Dwayne Wade
Doug Christie
Jason Kidd
Gary Payton
Larry Hughes



[B]MJ's Best Defenders (All-NBA Defense Only)[/B]

[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858][u]Dennis Rodman[/u][/url]
Gary Payton
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=376404][u]Michael Cooper[/u][/url]
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10536861&postcount=264][u]Derrick McKey[/u][/url]
Ronaldo Blackman
Alvin Robertson
Sidney Moncrief
Eddie Jones
John Starks
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg][u]Shawn Marion[/u][/url]
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xca8mjSzjIo&t=0m28s][u]Doug Christie[/u][/url]
Clifford Robinson
Anthony Mason
Nate McMillan
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352753][u]Kevin Garnett[/u][/url]
Dan Majerle
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvquD3ktNbQ][u]Latrell Sprewell[/u][/url]
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FERPEtMYpes][u]Jason Kidd[/u][/url]
Bobby Phills



[B]MJ's Best Two-Way Opponents:[/B]

[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692264&postcount=24][u]Penny Hardaway[/u][/url]
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10667322#post10667322][u]Grant Hill[/u][/url]
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=365450][u]Kobe Bryant[/u][/url]
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695321&postcount=8][u]Clyde Drexler[/u][/url]
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744903&postcount=25][u]Dominique Wilkins[/u][/url]
Ron Harper
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373989][u]Reggie Lewis[/u][/url]
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOJQOMEJ4Y][u]Ray Allen[/u][/url]
Sean Elliot
Michael Finley
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744186&postcount=18][u]Kendall Gill[/u][/url]
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692400&postcount=30][u]Richard Dumas[/u][/url]
Nick Anderson
Jerry Stackhouse


Also, the list above doesn't include many of the tremendous offensive wings that MJ faced including: Dr. J, James Worthy, Bernard King, Mitch Richmond, Alex English, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Chris Mullin, Larry Bird, Fat Lever, Jeff Hornacek, Allan Houston, Jeff Malone, Glen Rice, [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034][u]Kiki Vandeweghe[/u][/url]
.

Revised list:

Shawn Marion
Andre Igoudala
Paul George
Gerald Wallace
Bruce Bowen
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirelinko
Lebron James
Jimmy Butler
Luol Deng
Ron Artest
Thabo Sefalosha
Raja Bell
Tony Allen
Shane Battier
Chris Paul
Kevin Garnett
Dwyane Wade
Rajon Rondo
Kirk Hinrich
Jason Kidd
Chauncey Billups
Larry Hughes
Eric Snow
Doug Christie
Gary Payton
Scottie Pippen
Michael Jordan
Dennis Rodman (was All-D during Kobe's rookie season)

Also, since we're including PF's, lets add KG and Timmy to Kobe's list.

So, in all, Kobe played against 29 All-Defensive team members. MJ? 17. :oldlol:

EDIT: How the **** did you miss Wade and Kidd, you chipmunk?

[QUOTE=aj1987]

Also, since we're including PF's, lets add KG and Timmy to Kobe's list.

[/QUOTE]
We're talking wing players - SG's and SF's only, and only All-NBA defenders.. No point guards, PF's, or non-All-NBA.. no stiffs.. you added a bunch of trolly stiffs to your list.

Garnett was included on the previous era list because he played SF the entire 2002 season, as did MJ, and the two were matched up head-to-head in their first meeting.. 38-year-old MJ destroyed a prime KG, so it was material.. Otoh, Kobe never played SF and was never matched up head-to-head with KG.
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[QUOTE=3ball]We're talking wing players - SG's and SF's only, and only All-NBA defenders.. No point guards, PF's, or non-All-NBA.. no stiffs.. you added a bunch of trolly stiffs to your list.

Garnett was included on the previous era list because he played SF the entire 2002 season, as did MJ, and the two were matched up head-to-head in their first meeting.. 38-year-old MJ destroyed a prime KG, so it was material.. Otoh, Kobe never played SF and was never matched up head-to-head with KG.

You shouldn't be surprised the previous era wing and big men were so much better.. Faster pace/volume shooting is enabled when teams are willing to settle for contested shots and not run as much offense (as the elite mid-range repertoires of previous era wings allowed, while 3-point shooting requires running offense)..

The volume shooting of 2-pointer basketball and the superior repertoires needed to navigate no-spacing afforded previous era wings the capacity to have big scoring games far more often, thus putting greater pressure on defenses than today's 3-and-D wing.[/QUOTE]
:roll: :roll: :roll:

You're an idiot.

Kobe faced better competition and that a [B]FACT[/B]. He destroyed [B]29[/B] All-D players. MJ? [B]17[/B].

[QUOTE=aj1987]

You're an idiot.

Kobe faced better competition and that a [B]FACT[/B]. He destroyed [B]29[/B] All-D players. MJ? [B]17[/B].

[/QUOTE]
Your list includes small point guards and PF's that never guarded Kobe heads-up for any material amount of time.

I can include Shawn Kemp, Larry Nance, Ray Richardson, Mookie Blaylock, TJ Dunn, Otis Thorpe, [url=http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_Blows_By_Robert_a06301d352c7c9a7a2653e80f329d83b.gif][u]Robert Horry[/u][/url], David Robinson, Derek Harper, and tons of guys, but an ACCURATE list would be the guys that actually spent a material amount of time guarding MJ heads-up - that's what the OP list shows.
.

Where's Allen Iverson? Wait, it's a 3ball thread, nevermind.

[QUOTE=3ball]Your list includes small point guards and PF's that never guarded Kobe heads-up for any material amount of time.

I can include Shawn Kemp, Larry Nance, Ray Richardson, Mookie Blaylock, TJ Dunn, Otis Thorpe, [url=http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_Blows_By_Robert_a06301d352c7c9a7a2653e80f329d83b.gif][u]Robert Horry[/u][/url], David Robinson, Derek Harper, and tons of guys, but an ACCURATE list would be the guys that actually spent a material amount of time guarding MJ heads-up - that's what the OP list shows.[/QUOTE]
29 All-Defensive players vs 17. Dat weak ass cream puff era doe. :roll:

[QUOTE=Genaro]Where's Allen Iverson? Wait, it's a 3ball thread, nevermind.[/QUOTE]
He played PG in 2006, just like Penny Hardaway did in 1997.

Tmac played SF in 2006, just like Grant Hill did in 1997.

[QUOTE=aj1987]

Dat weak ass cream puff era doe. :roll:

[/QUOTE]
Don't be surprised the previous era list looks so much better - the 2-pointer basketball played in previous eras and the no-spacing it created resulted in faster pace/volume shooting and more diverse offensive repertoires.

Faster pace/volume shooting is enabled when you're willing to settle for contested shots and not run as much offense - the elite mid-range repertoires of previous era wings allowed for more contested shots, while today's 3-point shooting requires running offense to work the spacing and get open looks.

The volume shooting of 2-pointer basketball coupled with the superior repertoires needed to navigate no-spacing afforded previous era wings the capacity to have big scoring games far more often, thus putting greater pressure on defenses than today's 3-and-D wing - no spacing simply produced more offensively compentant players.

[QUOTE=3ball]Don't be surprised the previous era list looks so much better - the 2-pointer basketball played in previous eras and the no-spacing it created resulted in faster pace/volume shooting and more diverse offensive repertoires.

Faster pace/volume shooting is enabled when you're willing to settle for contested shots and not run as much offense - the elite mid-range repertoires of previous era wings allowed for more contested shots, while today's 3-point shooting requires running offense to work the spacing and get open looks.

The volume shooting of 2-pointer basketball coupled with the superior repertoires needed to navigate no-spacing afforded previous era wings the capacity to have big scoring games far more often, thus putting greater pressure on defenses than today's 3-and-D wing - no spacing simply produced more offensively compentant players.[/QUOTE]

[B][U]All-Def players Kobe faced[/U][/B]:

Shawn Marion
Andre Igoudala
Paul George
Gerald Wallace
Bruce Bowen
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirelinko
Lebron James
Jimmy Butler
Luol Deng
Ron Artest
Thabo Sefalosha
Raja Bell
Tony Allen
Shane Battier
Chris Paul
Kevin Garnett
Dwyane Wade
Rajon Rondo
Kirk Hinrich
Jason Kidd
Chauncey Billups
Larry Hughes
Eric Snow
Doug Christie
Gary Payton
Scottie Pippen
Michael Jordan
Dennis Rodman
Kawhi Leonard

[B][U]All-Def players MJ faced[/U][/B]:

Dennis Rodman
Gary Payton
Michael Cooper
Derrick Mckey
Alvin Robertson
Sidney Moncrief
Eddie Jones
Shawn Marion
Doug Christie
Clifford Robinson
Anthony Mason
Nate McMillan
Latrell Sprewell
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson

[QUOTE=aj1987]

You're an idiot.

Kobe faced better competition and that a FACT. He destroyed 29 All-D players. MJ? 17.

[/QUOTE]
You included a bunch of guys that didn't guard Kobe - ANYONE can just go through the list of all-league defenders and put every single name down - in that case, MJ and Kobe have faced the exact same number.

But the only thing that matters is comparing the defenders [I]who guarded them heads-up a material amount of the time[/I] - and comparing the overall quality of each group, not counting the exact number.. That's what the OP list did.

[QUOTE=3ball]You included a bunch of guys that didn't guard Kobe - ANYONE can just go through the list of all-league defenders and put every single name down - in that case, MJ and Kobe have faced the exact same number.

But the only thing that matters is comparing the defenders [I]who guarded them heads-up a material amount of the time[/I] - and comparing the overall quality of each group, not counting the exact number.. That's what the OP list did.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ma52qzVsRo1rvwttvo1_500.gif[/IMG]

Can't believe I'm going with 3ball here..this dude aj including MJ, Rodman n shit as players who guarded Kobe...

So basically 2000s were superior to the 90s. Thanks for proving what I already knew:applause: .

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[B][U]All-Defense players Kobe faced[/U][/B]:

Shawn Marion
Andre Igoudala
Paul George
Gerald Wallace
Bruce Bowen
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirelinko
Lebron James
Jimmy Butler
Luol Deng
Ron Artest
Thabo Sefalosha
Raja Bell
Tony Allen
Shane Battier
Chris Paul
Kevin Garnett
Dwyane Wade
Rajon Rondo
Kirk Hinrich
Jason Kidd
Chauncey Billups
Larry Hughes
Eric Snow
Doug Christie
Gary Payton
Scottie Pippen
Michael Jordan
Dennis Rodman
Kawhi Leonard
_________________
[B][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="3"]27 TOTAL[/SIZE][/COLOR][/B]



[B][U]All-Defense players MJ faced[/U][/B]:

Dennis Rodman
Gary Payton
Michael Cooper
Derrick Mckey
Alvin Robertson
Sidney Moncrief
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg][u]Shawn Marion[/u][/url]
Doug Christie
Clifford Robinson
Anthony Mason
Nate McMillan
Latrell Sprewell
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson
Kobe Bryant
Larry Hughes
Bruce Bowen
Jason Kidd
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10924107&postcount=24][u]Shane Battier[/u][/url]
Mookie Blaylock
Eddie Jones
Bobby Phills
Ronaldo Blackman
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3IQKeenIKw&t=8m51s][u]Raja Bell[/u][/url]
Eric Snow
Paul Pressey
Bobby Jones
TR Dunn
Derrick Harper
Rodney McCray
Maurice Cheeks
John Stockton
John Starks
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=embqhggoep4][u]Kevin Garnett[/u][/url]
________________
[B][SIZE="3"][COLOR="Red"]37 TOTAL[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B]
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[SIZE="5"]The above list ^^^^^^ is just to satisfy the aj187's trolling and the faulty logic he used

The real list of all-league defenders that actually guarded these players heads up is below[/SIZE]

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[B]Kobe's Best Defenders (All-NBA Defense Only)[/B]

Shawn Marion
Andre Igoudala
Paul George
Gerald Wallace
Bruce Bowen
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirelinko
Lebron James
Jimmy Butler
Luol Deng
Ron Artest
Thabo Sefalosha
Raja Bell
Tony Allen
Shane Battier
Dwayne Wade
Doug Christie
Jason Kidd
Gary Payton
Larry Hughes



[B]MJ's Best Defenders (All-NBA Defense Only)[/B]

[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858][u]Dennis Rodman[/u][/url]
Gary Payton
Michael Cooper
Derrick Mckey
Ronaldo Blackman
Alvin Robertson
Sidney Moncrief
Eddie Jones
John Starks
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg][u]Shawn Marion[/u][/url]
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xca8mjSzjIo&t=0m28s][u]Doug Christie[/u][/url]
Clifford Robinson
Anthony Mason
Nate McMillan
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352753][u]Kevin Garnett[/u][/url]
Dan Majerle
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvquD3ktNbQ][u]Latrell Sprewell[/u][/url]
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FERPEtMYpes][u]Jason Kidd[/u][/url]
Bobby Phills



[B]MJ's Best Two-Way Opponents:[/B]

[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692264&postcount=24][u]Penny Hardaway[/u][/url]
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10667322#post10667322][u]Grant Hill[/u][/url]
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=365450][u]Kobe Bryant[/u][/url]
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695321&postcount=8][u]Clyde Drexler[/u][/url]
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744903&postcount=25][u]Dominique Wilkins[/u][/url]
Ron Harper
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373989][u]Reggie Lewis[/u][/url]
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOJQOMEJ4Y][u]Ray Allen[/u][/url]
Sean Elliot
Michael Finley
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744186&postcount=18][u]Kendall Gill[/u][/url]
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692400&postcount=30][u]Richard Dumas[/u][/url]
Nick Anderson
Jerry Stackhouse


Also, the list above doesn't include many of the tremendous offensive wings that MJ faced including: Dr. J, James Worthy, Bernard King, Mitch Richmond, Alex English, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Chris Mullin, Larry Bird, Fat Lever, Jeff Hornacek, Allan Houston, Jeff Malone, Glen Rice, [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034][u]Kiki Vandeweghe[/u][/url]
.

.
[COLOR="White"].................[/COLOR][SIZE="3"][B]SG's with 15.0 or Greater PER[/B][/SIZE]


[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR][B][U]2006[/U][/B][COLOR="White"]...............................[/COLOR][B][U]1997[/U][/B][COLOR="White"]............................[/COLOR][B][U]1990[/U][/B]

Kobe Bryant..................... Michael Jordan................ Michael Jordan
Dwayne Wade.................. Clyde Drexler.................. Clyde Drexler
Manu Ginobili................... Mitch Richmond............... Mitch Richmond
Ray Allen......................... Reggie Miller.................. Reggie Miller
Vince Carter......................Eddie Jones.................... Joe Dumars
Michael Redd.................... Allan Houston................. Ronaldo Blackmon
Jason Richardson............... Nick Anderson................ Ron Harper
Richard Hamilton............... Latrell Sprewell.............. Alvin Robertson
Joe Johnson...................... Jim Jackson................... Dale Ellis
Mike Miller....................... Steve Smith................... Hersey Hawkins
Bonzi Wells....................... Kendall Gill.................... Fat Lever
Jamal Crawford................. Isiah Rider.................... Jeff Hornacek
Morris Peterson................. Bobby Phills................... Ricky Pierce
Leandro Barbosa................ Jerry Stackhouse............ Jeff Malone


1990 has a significant edge due to superior 2-way ability.

Of course, with no spacing in 1990, the option of running offense to work the spaced-out defenders for an open shot wasn't available, so players had to settle for contested shots more often.. When teams don't run as much offense and settle for contested shots instead, pace and shot volume increase.

The volume shooting associated with 2-pointer basketball and the wider repertoires needed to navigate no-spacing (defenders in closer proximity) enabled 1990 wings to put more pressure on defenders than subsequent era wings - higher volume and wider repertoires meant they were more of a threat to go off for a big game than subsequent era wings.

Otoh, today's game requires a slower pace and smaller offensive repertoires to work the spaced-out defenders and run offense to get open 3-point looks.. Naturally, it's not surprise that today's wings are less of a threat to go off for a big game and pose less of a threat individually to the defense.. Again, this is in contrast to the more diverse mid-range games of previous eras, which enabled repeated contested shots and therefore less time-consuming offense.

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]Can't believe I'm going with 3ball here..this dude aj including MJ, Rodman n shit as players who guarded Kobe...[/QUOTE]
I know that you're a LeTurd stan, but when was KG guarding MJ? Dude, You're like 15 years old. Go watch Pokemon on some shit. Basketball is not something you understand. 40 posts per day on one account? You need to go out, kid.

[B][U]All-Def players Kobe faced[/U][/B]:

Shawn Marion
Andre Igoudala
Paul George
Gerald Wallace
Bruce Bowen
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirelinko
Lebron James
Jimmy Butler
Luol Deng
Ron Artest
Thabo Sefalosha
Raja Bell
Tony Allen
Shane Battier
Chris Paul
Kevin Garnett
Dwyane Wade
Rajon Rondo
Kirk Hinrich
Jason Kidd
Chauncey Billups
Larry Hughes
Eric Snow
Doug Christie
Gary Payton
Scottie Pippen
Michael Jordan
Dennis Rodman
Kawhi Leonard

[B][U]All-Def players MJ faced[/U][/B]:

Dennis Rodman
Gary Payton
Michael Cooper
Derrick Mckey
Alvin Robertson
Sidney Moncrief
Eddie Jones
Shawn Marion
Doug Christie
Clifford Robinson
Anthony Mason
Nate McMillan
Latrell Sprewell
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson

3ball, you do realize that half the players you listed NEVER made an All-Def team when MJ was playing, right? Some of them NEVER even made the All-Def team.

It's still 29-17, kid. MJ played against weak ass players. An era with literal cream puffs. Kobe would've done worse to those defenders than he did with that chick in Colorado.

Just ban this c*ck sucker till the playoffs are over. The summer is ripe for tiresome bullshit. He'd probably have a complete Michael Jordan thesis written just about the time the playoffs end.

[QUOTE=Lebron23][IMG]http://i60.tinypic.com/qovipv.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

:roll:

[QUOTE=aj1987] Dat weak ass cream puff era doe. :roll:[/QUOTE]

You act like cream puffs are bad. Have you even had a cream puff?

.
[b][size="4"]MJ vs. Michael Cooper [color="red"]ISOLATIONS[/size][/b][/color]


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[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-16-2015/94kSix.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-16-2015/c2PZU2.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-16-2015/yQX1hH.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-16-2015/R5EYHP.gif[/IMG]



[SIZE="3"][B]Transition:
[/B][/SIZE]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-16-2015/dM16Fa.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-16-2015/lXD9ct.gif[/IMG]
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[B]All-Defensive Team SG's and SF's that guarded Kobe[/B]

Shawn Marion
Andre Igoudala
Paul George
Gerald Wallace
Bruce Bowen
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirelinko
Lebron James
Jimmy Butler
Luol Deng
Ron Artest
Thabo Sefalosha
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10924107&postcount=24][u]Shane Battier[/u][/url]
Tony Allen
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3IQKeenIKw&t=8m51s][u]Raja Bell[/u][/url]
Dwayne Wade
Doug Christie
Larry Hughes



[B]All-Defensive Team SG's and SF's that guarded MJ[/B]

[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858][u]Dennis Rodman[/u][/url]
Michael Cooper
Derrick Mckey
Ronaldo Blackman
Alvin Robertson
Sidney Moncrief
Eddie Jones
John Starks
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg][u]Shawn Marion[/u][/url]
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xca8mjSzjIo&t=0m28s][u]Doug Christie[/u][/url]
Anthony Mason
Clifford Robinson
Nate McMillan
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352753][u]Kevin Garnett[/u][/url]
Dan Majerle
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvquD3ktNbQ][u]Latrell Sprewell[/u][/url]
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson
Bobby Phills



[B]MJ's Best Two-Way Opponents:[/B]

[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692264&postcount=24][u]Penny Hardaway[/u][/url]
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10667322#post10667322][u]Grant Hill[/u][/url]
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=365450][u]Kobe Bryant[/u][/url]
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695321&postcount=8][u]Clyde Drexler[/u][/url]
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744903&postcount=25][u]Dominique Wilkins[/u][/url]
Ron Harper
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373989][u]Reggie Lewis[/u][/url]
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOJQOMEJ4Y][u]Ray Allen[/u][/url]
Sean Elliot
Michael Finley
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744186&postcount=18][u]Kendall Gill[/u][/url]
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692400&postcount=30][u]Richard Dumas[/u][/url]
Nick Anderson
Jerry Stackhouse


Also, the list above doesn't include many of the tremendous offensive wings that MJ faced including: Dr. J, James Worthy, Bernard King, Mitch Richmond, Alex English, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Chris Mullin, Larry Bird, Fat Lever, Jeff Hornacek, Allan Houston, Jeff Malone, Glen Rice, [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034][u]Kiki Vandeweghe[/u][/url]
.

Do you realize that when MJ faced some of those defenders, he was missing the Playoffs (inb4 age excuse), right? Kobe was killing them and winning rings.

I know that The Golden Era of SG's was the 2000s era. So that would tie into 2006:

Kobe
Wade
T Mac
AI
Ray Ray
Vince
Manu

U are looking at 7 HOFers in that era. In 1990, u aren't gonna have that many HOFers at the SG. And peak wise, the 2000 era SG's will overtake that whole era other than MJ and Drexler. They would push back the rest of the guys. What made the 2000s era BEAST was u had the Golden Era of SG's and PF's going at the same time.

06 Kobe is the best player from the 3 lists and Wade 06 comes close

2006 is by far the best.

This thread;

[IMG]http://img.pandawhale.com/post-41349-jonah-hill-oscars-cut-it-out-g-w5Tc.gif[/IMG]

.
[SIZE="3"][B]VERY FEW SG's and SF's achieve 100+ Dunks in a Season[/B]
[/SIZE]

[U]1988 - 1996[/U][COLOR="White"]......................[/COLOR][U]2001 - 2014[/U]

Michael Jordan.................. Kevin Durant
Dominique Wilkins............. Lebron James
Clyde Drexler.................... Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen................... Carmelo Anthony
Penny Hardaway................ Kobe Bryant
Grant Hill.......................... Tracy McGrady
Ron Harper ...................... Andre Iguodala
Richard Dumas.................. Rudy Gay
Stacy Augmon................... Shawn Marion
Michael Finley.................... Richard Jefferson
Jerry Stackhouse
Cedric Ceballos
[B][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="3"]Derrick McKey[/SIZE][/COLOR][/B] [COLOR="Red"](All NBA Defensive Team)[/COLOR]
Roy Hinson
Chris Morris

[i][B]Sources[/B]: basketball-reference.com for 2001-2014; Philadelpia 76'er Media Guides and Harvey Pollack's Statistical Guides for 1988-1996, links for which are in this thread's OP: [url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352399[/url][/i]
.

[QUOTE=aj1987]

MJ was missing the Playoffs (inb4 age excuse), while Kobe was [SIZE="3"][B]killing them[/B][/SIZE] and winning rings.

[/QUOTE]
"Killing them"???... :facepalm ... Look at Kobe's career averages vs. some dudes on that list:

[I]26 PPG on 43% vs. Bowen[/I]: [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=bowenbr01[/url]

[I]24 PPG on 43% vs. Prince[/I]: [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=princta01[/url]

:whatever:


Otoh, here's MJ's career stats vs. 1990 and 1991 DPOY Dennis Rodman ([url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374199][u]SF[/u][/url]) and HOF perennial 1st Team All-Defense Joe Dumars (37 games):

[I]30.5 PPG on 47% vs. [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858][u]Rodman[/u][/url]/Dumars[/i]: [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=rodmade01[/url]


Keep in mind, you included washed-up Gary Payton on Kobe's list, and Kobe got OUTPLAYED by washed up Payton.. In 28 games, Kobe only averaged 20.9 PPG on 43% to Payton's 21 PPG on 47%.. Meanwhile, MJ's career averages against [I]prime DPOY Payton[/I] was 30.5 PPG on 47% (15 games), and during those games MJ was going up against [I]in-their-prime All-NBA defenders [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10536861&postcount=264][u]Derrick McKey[/u][/url] and Nate McMillan AS WELL[/I]:

[I]MJ vs. Payton[/I]: [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=paytoga01[/url]
[I]Kobe vs. Payton[/I]: [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=paytoga01[/url]
.

[QUOTE=ImKobe][B]06 Kobe is the best player from the 3 lists[/B] and Wade 06 comes close

2006 is by far the best.[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://img.pandawhale.com/post-47705-michael-jordan-shaking-head-no-PinG.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=3ball]"Killing them"???... :facepalm ... Look at Kobe's career averages vs. some dudes on that list:

[I]26 PPG on 43% vs. Bowen[/I]: [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=bowenbr01[/url]

[I]24 PPG on 43% vs. Prince[/I]: [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=princta01[/url]

:whatever:


Otoh, here's MJ's career stats vs. 1990 and 1991 DPOY Dennis Rodman ([url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374199][u]SF[/u][/url]) and HOF perennial 1st Team All-Defense Joe Dumars (37 games):

[I]30.5 PPG on 47% vs. [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858][u]Rodman[/u][/url]/Dumars[/i]: [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=rodmade01[/url]


Keep in mind, you included washed-up Gary Payton on Kobe's list, and Kobe got OUTPLAYED by washed up Payton.. In 28 games, Kobe only averaged 20.9 PPG on 43% to Payton's 21 PPG on 47%.. Meanwhile, MJ's career averages against [I]prime DPOY Payton[/I] was 30.5 PPG on 47% (15 games), and during those 90's games MJ was going up against in-their-prime All-NBA defenders [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10536861&postcount=264][u]Derrick McKey[/u][/url] and Nate McMillan AS WELL:

[I]MJ vs. Payton[/I]: [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=paytoga01[/url]
[I]Kobe vs. Payton[/I]: [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=paytoga01[/url][/QUOTE]


So you admit that Kobe played against better competition?

29 vs 17. :roll:


Also, stop PM'ing me.

EDIT: Dunking? :roll: Weak ass defenses.

The problem with this kind of comparison is we tend to think it's the prime version when it's not.

For example, Mitch Richmond was just sophomore in 1990. Reggie Miller was just on his 3rd year, which was the first good year he had. He'd be so far behind a 2006 Ray Allen.