:coleman:
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:coleman:
ISH logic... 3>0
All you need to know.
:wtf: :no:
KM for sure
[QUOTE=plowking]ISH logic... 3>0
All you need to know.[/QUOTE]
[B]For his 1st 2 rings (1981 & 1984) he was a 6thman but the 1986-88 version of him was probably the most onstoppable post player ever for many people who saw him (Steven A Smith one of them).
[U]1986 Kevin McHale Final Stats vs The Rockets[/U]
1st In Scoring: 25.8 PPG (on 17.2 FGAs Taken Only)
On 57.3%FG
8.5 RPG
2.5 BPG
Holding HOFer Ralph Sampson to ONLY 14.8 PPG On 43.8% FG Shooting [/B]
The one whose first name starts with "K" and last name ends with "e," initials KM.
Malone and it's not even close.
McHale played better when it really mattered. Malone was always a mental weakling in the body of a terminator. One of them shot 56% in the playoffs, the other, 46%. Malone is the king of aggregated stats, and little else.
[QUOTE=24-Inch_Chrome]The one whose first name starts with "K" and last name ends with "e," initials KM.[/QUOTE]
So obvious :rolleyes:
why does ISH question Malones cred. :confusedshrug:
Karl Malone is the 2nd highest scorer EVER in the league.
Even though him in Stockton were great options we already know that his era it took three all-star type players on a team to win chips.
Mchale had Bird and Chief .
:coleman:
Both are better than Barkley, OP. :facepalm
[COLOR="White"]inb4meltdown[/COLOR]
In terms of historical achievement, it's obviously Malone.
But as someone who saw both guys, if it were my team I'd take McHale in a heartbeat. McHale is one of the most unique ability vs. numbers guys ever because of how much he bent himself for the good of the team.
Malone to me was maybe the best player ever at getting and making the easy shots. Weather it was using his physicality to get way deep in the post to make an easy shot. Outrunning his opponent, which he's really underrated at. And obviously just finding space in that pick and roll. But his game lacked much in the way of counters. If those handful of things were taken away, he didn't adjust well.
McHale's post game could serve as an offensive foundation. It would've been nice had he been a better passer, but that to me is a smaller sin. And defensively the gap is enormous. McHale has a great rep as a rim protector, but is underrated as a perimeter guy before he destroyed his ankle playing through the playoffs on a broken foot.
My fondness of McHale is admittedly higher than pretty much anyone. I'd take him over Barkley for similar defensive reasons. And I'd consider him over Garnett, who's an all time defender and an excellent offensive player, but his game on that end has some of the same flaws as Malone's in that while it's very versatile, it lacked some of the forcefulness that McHale's post game had that feels more foundational.
McHale would be a fascinating player as a center in the current league. He could be a switching machine. Something like Jo Noah on that end, and a more efficient Zack Randolph on the other.
[QUOTE=Jasper]why does ISH question Malones cred. :confusedshrug:
[B]Karl Malone is the 2nd highest scorer EVER in the league. [/B]
Even though him in Stockton were great options we already know that his era it took three all-star type players on a team to win chips.
Mchale had Bird and Chief .[/QUOTE]
I already called him the king of aggregated stats (something pretty unimportant if you ask me), but he doesn't have much cred because of his consistently poor performances in the playoffs.
3 all-star type players? You know the Rockets won in 94 & 95, right? Malone had a good chance in 94, and he shot atrociously for a big man, as was so common with him in the playoffs.
Malone easily ... next.
[QUOTE=Thorpesaurous]In terms of historical achievement, it's obviously Malone.
But as someone who saw both guys, if it were my team I'd take McHale in a heartbeat. McHale is one of the most unique ability vs. numbers guys ever because of how much he bent himself for the good of the team.
[B]Malone to me was maybe the best player ever at getting and making the easy shots. [/B] Weather it was using his physicality to get way deep in the post to make an easy shot. Outrunning his opponent, which he's really underrated at. And obviously just finding space in that pick and roll. [B]But his game lacked much in the way of counters. If those handful of things were taken away, he didn't adjust well. [/B]
[B]McHale's post game could serve as an offensive foundation[/B]. It would've been nice had he been a better passer, but that to me is a smaller sin. And defensively the gap is enormous. McHale has a great rep as a rim protector, but is underrated as a perimeter guy before he destroyed his ankle playing through the playoffs on a broken foot.
[/QUOTE]
All due to respect to one of the better posters on this site, but...
Are you trying to tell me that Malone was not an offensive foundation? The man that averaged no less than 23ppg for FOURTEEN straight seasons, as his team's unquestioned best player, was not an offensive foundation? Not to mention that those teams, where he was the best player and CLEAR #1 option, were in the playoffs for everyone single one of those 14 seasons.
And honestly, who cares if the points were easy or difficult. He had continued success. If the opposing team can't consistently stop him from getting his easy points... well, those baskets still count towards the final score.
I can't speak on McHale's level of play, as I never saw him... but are some people seriously considering McHale's 3-4 years of really awesome play as testament that he was better than Malone? WTF?
Malone clearly.
McHale always had Bird to take off the pressure. He didn't have to carry the burden of being "the man" and that should never be overlooked. It's so much harder to be great when you are the focal point of the D. And Malone's longevity is amazing. If it wasn't for a guy named Jordan, Malone probably has a ring or two and this isn't even a discussion. That late 90's Jazz team was pretty darn good and were somewhat competitive with the Bulls in both finals.
[QUOTE=robert de niro]KM for sure[/QUOTE]
:lol
:roll:
Stat wise Karl Malone is a beast. You can take his top 12 years as an average and it will be better in production as the other top PF's best year. And his playoff numbers were 25/11 over a very large 190 games played, his career numbers were 25/10. His best eight years he's 28 and 11, in both seasons, thats over 700 games where he maintained that high level. Of the post 70's great PFs (Dirk, KG, Duncan, McHale) only Barkley got to 27ppg (and Barkley had one other year where he got to 28ppg). So if somebody wanted 20 years of steady high production, without missing games, he's the best of the lot. If you wanted super high production for 10 years he's got a significant hand on the comp as well.
With that said I definitely could fit McHale, easily the least productive of the bunch, on some teams before Karl. Depends on how you would tweak a team.
If Malone never joined the Lakers, then Malone.
But he did.
dat 1986 McHale was something else but aside from that Malone was consistently better.
[QUOTE=Pointguard]Stat wise Karl Malone is a beast. You can take his top 12 years as an average and it will be better in production as the other top PF's best year. [/QUOTE]
Bob Pettit for 11 seasons: 26.4/16.2/3
The amount of disrespect Malone gets on this site is ridiculous. He put up elite production for over 15 years, averaged 25/10/3 on 50% for a decade straight, and if he didn't play in the Jordan era, would have had a resume that looked like this
15 All-NBA Teams, 11 first (tied with Kobe for most all time) 2 MVP's, 2 Finals MVP's, and the second most points in NBA history
That's a top 10 resume right there. McHale was an excellent player and had a great peak, but this thread is just an insult to Malone. He's got to be the most disrespected top 20 player of all time on ISH. LeBron, Kobe, and Wilt get a lot of shit, but at least people defend them. Ain't nobody on here stands up for Malone, he's always mentioned in a negative light
I don't even think McHale was better than Pau Gasol, let alone Malone. And I only have Malone 4th as an all-time PF.
Easily the Mailman.
McHale had Bird and Parish. Bird a top 10 ATG sure helps alot to have.
And if it werent for Jordans Bulls, Malone would have 2 rings for sure.
McHale
[B]I love McHale's game but c'mon now...
Peak McHale was a great, very valuable player... Top2 GOAT post-game in terms of overall skill, major soft-touch around the rim, very good scorer, close to unstoppable with single coverage on the low-block, had a jumper, pretty good FT shooter, very good rebounder, great overall defender, smart player, not a bad passer... but he just wasn't as good or as impactful as Karl Malone.
Kevin played alongside a top5/10 GOAT who took the most attention on the perimeter for that team and got everyone countless easy buckets.
He was a great defensive player but not what you'd call a defensive anchor, couldn't impact it like that, better than Karl, I'd say, but by very little.
He wasn't an inept passer but turned into a blackhole many times and has more TO's than assists for his career, Malone was EASILY a better passer/playmaker.
He couldn't rebound as well as Karl.
He never was top5 in PPG while Malone was top3 8 times, only topped 26 once while Malone did it 9 times and, yea, McHale always had terrific FG% but Karl's was great as it was while scoring more...
Peak McHale was EXTREMELY hard to guard on that low-block with tremendous skill, long arms, good mobility, numerous counters, could hit jumpers... but Karl was just a better, more versatile scorer.
McHale couldn't impose his way in like Malone, had more skill on the block but not as strong/powerful as Malone, couldn't run the break like Malone, Karl had that pick-n-roll/pop game that McHale didn't, he could do it from the triple-threat while Kevin not so much, McHale's a better FT shooter but Malone got there more often.
And while Kevin was no Robert Parish, as in what you had before was what you were going to get in the most important moments most times, but also wasn't as clutch as a Dennis Johnson.
Karl's a 2 time MVP while Kevin not even at his very best cracked the top3.
Malone was out there playing lots of minutes, leading his team, just better, more impactful than McHale.
And if you wanna factor in longevity, forget about it...
McHale was only coming into his own by 1985, moved into the starting5 by 1986, had his peak in 1987 and was never the same after that same season, due to playing with a broken foot throughout the Playoffs.
Malone has GOAT-level longevity.
McHale has a top5 peak for a PF, although in terms of overall career considering everything, I got Duncan, Malone, KG, Barkley, Dirk, Pettit and Hayes above McHale... That's #8.
[/B]
kevin mchale was one of the greatest post players in nba history, period. he said that even he didn't know what he was going to do in the post before he did it. it was all pure reaction time and instinct.
that said, malone was a two time mvp, the second highest scorer in nba history, and lead his team alongside stockton to two finals appearances. only knock on malone i could think of was the fact that he just couldn't make his free throws in the post-season and that used to always come around to bite the jazz.
I always forget Karl Malone is a 2x MVP, 90s MVPs really seem irrelevant to me.
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]The amount of disrespect Malone gets on this site is ridiculous. He put up elite production for over 15 years, averaged 25/10/3 on 50% for a decade straight, and if he didn't play in the Jordan era, would have had a resume that looked like this[B]
15 All-NBA Teams, 11 first (tied with Kobe for most all time) 2 MVP's, 2 Finals MVP's, and the second most points in NBA history[/B]
That's a top 10 resume right there. McHale was an excellent player and had a great peak, but this thread is just an insult to Malone. He's got to be the most disrespected top 20 player of all time on ISH. LeBron, Kobe, and Wilt get a lot of shit, but at least people defend them. Ain't nobody on here stands up for Malone, he's always mentioned in a negative light[/QUOTE]
GTFO with this the only reason Malone won MVP over MJ in 1996 is because the press was beyond sick of giving the MVP to the same person every year and the turds at BSPN wrote a love piece on Karl Malone.
Malone by a bit, but people dont realize how good McHale was. He was a #1 masquerading as #2, because he played with Bird (Wade playing with LeBron is an excellent comparison) and deferred to him.
If McHale had his own team he averages 25/12/2.5 bpg on 55-60% fg in his prime. And no one would automatically assume that Dirk (or Pau Gasol :roll: ) were better than him.
The only 4's better than McHale were Malone, Barkley, Duncan, and KG, with Dirk an arguable case.
[QUOTE=kshutts1]All due to respect to one of the better posters on this site, but...
Are you trying to tell me that Malone was not an offensive foundation? The man that averaged no less than 23ppg for FOURTEEN straight seasons, as his team's unquestioned best player, was not an offensive foundation? Not to mention that those teams, where he was the best player and CLEAR #1 option, were in the playoffs for everyone single one of those 14 seasons.
And honestly, who cares if the points were easy or difficult. He had continued success. If the opposing team can't consistently stop him from getting his easy points... well, those baskets still count towards the final score.
I can't speak on McHale's level of play, as I never saw him... but are some people seriously considering McHale's 3-4 years of really awesome play as testament that he was better than Malone? WTF?[/QUOTE]
I am saying Malone isn't an offensive foundation. And I know that seems weird considering the ridiculous number of points he scored.
But it's your second point that is the reason. I do care how easy the points were, because it's exactly that reason that I have concerns running an offense through him. And I think it defines some of his post season failures because teams knew they could change looks at him and effect his play. I think that's the reason so many of the big situations those Jazz teams were in, the ball wound up in Stockton or even Jeff Hornacek's hands. They may make a decision to go to Karl, but it was more often or not their decision.
And like I said, if we're doing a historical list, some kind of a ranking, then Malone is clearly ahead. But if I'm running the team and I get to choose between these two skill sets, I'd take McHale.
[QUOTE=JohnnySic]Malone by a bit, but people dont realize how good McHale was. He was a #1 masquerading as #2, because he played with Bird (Wade playing with LeBron is an excellent comparison) and deferred to him.
If McHale had his own team he averages 25/12/2.5 bpg on 55-60% fg in his prime. And no one would automatically assume that Dirk (or Pau Gasol :roll: ) were better than him.
The only 4's better than McHale were Malone, Barkley, Duncan, and KG, with Dirk an arguable case.[/QUOTE]
Prime-wise it's close statistically. Longevity-wise, Gasol tops him after this great all-NBA caliber year at age 34. Both won rings as second option. Pau's '10 playoff run is as good as McHale's '86 run. I don't know if Pau is underrated, or McHale is overrated, but something is wrong with the perceptions here.
Also, DIRK ARGUABLE over McHale? What the ****? :oldlol:
[QUOTE=Thorpesaurous]I am saying Malone isn't an offensive foundation. And I know that seems weird considering the ridiculous number of points he scored.
But it's your second point that is the reason. [B]I do care how easy the points were, because it's exactly that reason that I have concerns running an offense through him. And I think it defines some of his post season failures because teams knew they could change looks at him and effect his play.[/B] I think that's the reason so many of the big situations those Jazz teams were in, the ball wound up in Stockton or even Jeff Hornacek's hands. They may make a decision to go to Karl, but it was more often or not their decision.
And like I said, if we're doing a historical list, some kind of a ranking, then Malone is clearly ahead. But if I'm running the team and I get to choose between these two skill sets, I'd take McHale.[/QUOTE]
But an offense was run through him... for probably 16+ years, and it was effective. And in the post season, his numbers dipped slightly, but that's to be expected for most players on good teams, as they're not able to "feast" on weak teams.
Obviously your opinion. I just disagree.
[QUOTE=JohnnySic]Malone by a bit, [B]but people dont realize how good McHale was. He was a #1 masquerading as #2[/B], because he played with Bird (Wade playing with LeBron is an excellent comparison) and deferred to him.
If McHale had his own team he averages 25/12/2.5 bpg on 55-60% fg in his prime. And no one would automatically assume that Dirk (or Pau Gasol :roll: ) were better than him.
The only 4's better than McHale were Malone, Barkley, Duncan, and KG, with Dirk an arguable case.[/QUOTE]
How good to do you consider Scottie Pippen?
[QUOTE=PsychoBe]kevin mchale was one of the greatest post players in nba history, period. he said that even he didn't know what he was going to do in the post before he did it. it was all pure reaction time and instinct.
that said, malone was a two time mvp, the second highest scorer in nba history, and lead his team alongside stockton to two finals appearances. only knock on malone i could think of was the fact that he just couldn't make his free throws in the post-season and that used to always come around to bite the jazz.[/QUOTE]
Good post.
I will say that other than Hakeem, McHale has the best post moves of any big I have seen.
One very fair criticism of Malone that I haven't seen mentioned yet though is his turnovers. I don't necessarily think that makes McHale better, but it was a problem for Malone's team.
[QUOTE=Thorpesaurous]I am saying Malone isn't an offensive foundation. And I know that seems weird considering the ridiculous number of points he scored.
But it's your second point that is the reason. I do care how easy the points were, because it's exactly that reason that I have concerns running an offense through him. And I think it defines some of his post season failures because [B]teams knew they could change looks at him and effect his play. I think that's the reason so many of the big situations those Jazz teams were in, the ball wound up in Stockton or even Jeff Hornacek's hands. [/B] They may make a decision to go to Karl, but it was more often or not their decision.
And like I said, if we're doing a historical list, some kind of a ranking, then Malone is clearly ahead. But if I'm running the team and I get to choose between these two skill sets, I'd take McHale.[/QUOTE]
Do you think this had anything to do with Malone turning the ball over so much?
[QUOTE=kshutts1]How good to do you consider Scottie Pippen?[/QUOTE]
Pippen was great. Also a 1A like McHale.
[QUOTE=JohnnySic]Pippen was great. Also a 1A like McHale.[/QUOTE]
So who is better... Doc or Pippen? Wilkins or Pippen?
Just unusual to see the "could have been" argument for a player. Mostly, we deal with what did happen.
[QUOTE=JohnnySic]Malone by a bit, but people dont realize how good McHale was. He was a #1 masquerading as #2, because he played with Bird (Wade playing with LeBron is an excellent comparison) and deferred to him.
If McHale had his own team he averages 25/12/2.5 bpg on 55-60% fg in his prime. And no one would automatically assume that Dirk (or Pau Gasol :roll: ) were better than him.
The only 4's better than McHale were Malone, Barkley, Duncan, and KG, with Dirk an arguable case.[/QUOTE]
[B]Please...
Only seasons you can even argue that whole masquerading thing is 1986 and 1987... Still, Bird scored more in both of those years...
In '86 the team was unreal considering each player's "level" at the time. Everybody totally in synch, everyone sharing the wealth, crazy ball-movement, Bird playing like Neo on the Matrix, everywhere without overdoing it, within the flow realizing what he had around him, keeping everything together, giving up his shots and putting egos aside.
Then in '87 they tried to do the same but it just wasn't the same. No bench, players getting older, Parish and Ainge not close to 100% for the Playoffs, McHale with a broken foot... Bird had to step up and carry the load once again.
You gotta realize that peak McHale was extremely close to unstoppable 1on1 in the post... As the clear-cut #1 option? You can bet your ass he's going to get doubled more often than not, and most times McHale tried to do too much while his passing from the post left much to be desired. Even though he was a smart player and not a bad passer, he turned into a blackhole plenty (his nickname) and has more TO's than assists for his career.
Plus, Kevin would hit lots of open jumpers, faders from the post, pretty good FT shooter too... But he wasn't that good at the pick-n-pop/roll game, not a killer on the break, not the player to do it from the triple-threat...
Just wouldn't be the same without a player like Bird to take most attention for himself or to set Kevin up for all those bunnies and such.
If anything, Bird was the one deferring to him.
Kevin didn't have that killer mentality either.
Peak McHale is one of the very best #2 options ever, but imho, that shouldn't be stretched any (or much) higher.
Give him the "space" to operate in the post, let him have his rebounds/putbacks, let him connect on some open jumpers, hit him quickly down-low after he gets position for the "easy" bucket... You're more than good to go, he'll play great defense on his man and good team D, block a couple of shots, could move the ball if rightly influenced, so on...
12 rebounds is clearly a stretch. McHale was a pretty good rebounder, but not at that level, not the type of banger inside either; long arms and pretty mobile but not very strong or all that physical.
Great overall defense but like I've said, not that type of bigman defensive anchor either.
He would score around 26 but efficiency would've dropped and don't be thinking his attempts would've rise much due to the whole doubling and passing aspect...
TO's would've definitely been a problem.
No one would assume Dirk's better than him? :rolleyes: Really? I mean, c'mon now...
Peak? It can definitely be argued that McHale's top5 (or #5) for PF's... But it lasted VERY little and considering everything he's not above Duncan, Malone, KG, Barkley, Dirk or Hayes, for their career.
[/B]