If today's defenders have more "freedom", then league-wide ORtg should be lower

But it isn't.. From 2008-2011, league-wide ORtg was the highest it's ever been - it reached an all-time high of 108.3 in 2009*.

This proves that there have been offsetting factors - in 2005, when defenders were permitted to play zone [I]outside[/I] the paint, this was offset by zone being banned [I]inside[/I] the paint, where defenders were required to stay within "armslength" of their man to remain in the paint.

So while defenders have been given unlimited freedom outside the paint, they're hog-tied inside the paint - "armslength" is the strictest defense possible other than making the defender stand shoulder-to-shoulder with his man or something ridiculous like that.

Of course, in addition to "armslength" restriction, the hand-check/physicality ban also offset zones outside the paint.

These types of offsetting factors is why league-wide Ortg has remained stable (between 105-108) for the last 30 years (other than a brief drop-off immediately after MJ retired).


[SIZE="1"]* In 2009, when the NBA's ORtg peaked at 108.3, teams attempted 18.0 threes per game, which is nearly the same as the 16.8 threes attempted in 1997, when ORtg was only 106.7.. In 2006 and 2007, teams attempted 16.0 threes per game, or LESS than 1997, and ORtg was 106.5. [/SIZE]
.

I really don't know why I bother with you...Your post claims that the number of 3's is similar with the 1997 season or so. But now there are more players shooting a high % on more attempts per game. Also, as defense has gotten better overall, so has offence. No more iso iso iso:no:

2000-2005 = goat era of defense.


lowest drtg & pace combination in history BUT still had modern players, skills and rules.


the combination of zone defense & hanchecking was proven to be too much for most, but guys like shaq remained at the top.


this is why shaq is MDE. dominated in the 90s against goat centers and so-so defense. dominated in the 2000s with defense being GOAT. and then dominated post 2005, after his prime, from 2006 & 2007 (same numbers as 2010-2014 duncan - who many still consider dominant).

players got better and their superior skills from the 3 point land allow them to run better offenses:confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]2000-2005 = goat era of defense.


lowest drtg & pace combination in history BUT still had modern players, skills and rules.


the combination of zone defense & hanchecking was proven to be too much for most, but guys like shaq remained at the top.


this is why shaq is MDE. dominated in the 90s against goat centers and so-so defense. dominated in the 2000s with defense being GOAT. and then dominated post 2005, after his prime, from 2006 & 2007 (same numbers as 2010-2014 duncan - who many still consider dominant).[/QUOTE]


so kobe's 35.4 in 2005/06 season is equivalent to like 40 today

[QUOTE=3ball]But it isn't.. From 2008-2011, league-wide ORtg was the highest it's ever been - it reached an all-time high of 108.3 in 2009*.

This proves that there have been offsetting factors - in 2005, when defenders were permitted to play zone [I]outside[/I] the paint, this was offset by zone being banned [I]inside[/I] the paint, where defenders were required to stay within "armslength" of their man to remain in the paint.

So while defenders have been given unlimited freedom outside the paint, they're hog-tied inside the paint - "armslength" is the strictest defense possible other than making the defender stand shoulder-to-shoulder with his man or something ridiculous like that.

Of course, in addition to "armslength" restriction, the hand-check/physicality ban also offset zones outside the paint.

These types of offsetting factors is why league-wide Ortg has remained stable (between 105-108) for the last 30 years (other than a brief drop-off immediately after MJ retired).


[SIZE="1"]* In 2009, when the NBA's ORtg peaked at 108.3, teams attempted 18.0 threes per game, which is nearly the same as the 16.8 threes attempted in 1997, when ORtg was only 106.7.. In 2006 and 2007, teams attempted 16.0 threes per game, or LESS than 1997, and ORtg was 106.5. [/SIZE]
.[/QUOTE]
I don't know how ORtg is calculated, so this is a legit question. Not one of my normal 3ball-responses snarky comment things.

How much of an affect does the additional 3p % point (36.7 vs 36) in 08/09 over 96/97 affect the rating? What about the additional 3.3% in FT% (.771 vs .738)?

Edit: 3p change is minimal, but considering the uptick in attempts as well, I feel it's noteworthy.

[QUOTE=sd3035]so kobe's 35.4 in 2005/06 season is equivalent to like 40 today[/QUOTE]



in 2006, perimeter players saw a rise in ppg because the elimination of hand checking.
2000-2005 emphasized zone AND handchecking, hence the GOAT era of defense


think about it. look at the percentages, the slow pace albeit efficient defensive rating.


there are very few players who would have dominated that era that ARENT big men.


and by dominating, i mean shooting with incredible efficiency while being elite in every facet of the game (permitting your role).

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]in 2006, perimeter players saw a rise in ppg because the elimination of hand checking.
2000-2005 emphasized zone AND handchecking, hence the GOAT era of defense


think about it. look at the percentages, the slow pace albeit efficient defensive rating.


there are very few players who would have dominated that era that ARENT big men.


and by dominating, i mean shooting with incredible efficiency while being elite in every facet of the game (permitting your role).[/QUOTE]


T-Mac 2002-03 was one of the all time great offensive years then

TMAC was an animal that year

Several years ago the Eagles made 5 straight NFC conference games JUST BECAUSE they were the only team to understand that the split between run and pass should lean heavily towards pass. It was a market inefficiency.

In the NBA that inefficiency is the 3 pt shot.

In 85/86 Larry Bird led an all time great team in the Celtics to the title. He won the MVP and led the NBA in 3pt FGs made. With 82. The entire Celtics team made 138, less than half as many as Steph himself made last year; the all time team made fewer as a team than Terrence Ross or Caldwell-Pope alone made last season.

Last year, 90 players made more 3 pters than Bird did in his quintessential season. Robert Covington made 167, almost eclipsing Bird best TWO YEAR RUN in 3s made. And he started the season in the NBDL. He also shot .374, just .002 behind Bird's career 3pt%.

Today's 3 pt shooters are simply A LOT better than they were even a few years ago. And that shooting has completely changed the geometry of basketball. Defenders have to cover so much more ground.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]

so-so defense (in the 90's).

[/quote]
When you say that defenses in the 90's were "so-so", that's based on absolutely nothing, other than your ignorant opinion.

[I]Otoh, stable league-wide ORtg proves that it remains equally hard to score across eras.
[/I]

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]

Shaq dominated in the 90s

[/QUOTE]
Shaq DID NOT dominate the 90's - where do you get this ridiculous idea?.. Shaq didn't win shit and got DESTROYED in the 90's - this is historical fact.. And his stats were nowhere NEAR the best.

In the 90's, Shaq had more stacked teams than he had with Kobe, but he got destroyed by Houston, MJ's Bulls, and Utah (Utah swept him twice - first in 1997, and then in 1998 when Shaq played with 3 other all-stars).
.

[QUOTE=sd3035]T-Mac 2002-03 was one of the all time great offensive years then

TMAC was an animal that year[/QUOTE]



tmac was great, but i don't think you're reading my posts correctly.

you know the perimeter players in the 80s and early 90s all shooting WELL over 50%?


that isn't happening from 2000-2005.

[QUOTE=HurricaneKid]

Today's 3 pt shooters are simply A LOT better than they were even a few years ago. And that shooting has completely changed the geometry of basketball.

[B]Defenders have to cover so much more ground.[/B]

[/QUOTE]
The extra ground today's defenders must cover makes it EASIER for the offensive player, obviously

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]2000-2005 = goat era of defense.


lowest drtg & pace combination in history BUT still had modern players, skills and rules.


the combination of zone defense & hanchecking was proven to be too much for most, but guys like shaq remained at the top.


this is why shaq is MDE. dominated in the 90s against goat centers and so-so defense. dominated in the 2000s with defense being GOAT. and then dominated post 2005, after his prime, from 2006 & 2007 (same numbers as 2010-2014 duncan - who many still consider dominant).[/QUOTE]

Shaq can't dominate the Spurs though.:rolleyes:

Since 1980, the highest Ortg is 108.3 and the lowest is 102.2. The difference between the two is 6%. It's so incredibly stupid that this is always a topic and people feel the need to make that distinction especially when we are talking about individual stats across eras.

[QUOTE=Rooster]Shaq can't dominate the Spurs though.:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]


[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01/gamelog/2001/[/url]

27 & 13 on .541%fg against duncan AND drob


MDE :bowdown:

[QUOTE=HurricaneKid]Several years ago the Eagles made 5 straight NFC conference games JUST BECAUSE they were the only team to understand that the split between run and pass should lean heavily towards pass. It was a market inefficiency.

In the NBA that inefficiency is the 3 pt shot.

In 85/86 Larry Bird led an all time great team in the Celtics to the title. He won the MVP and led the NBA in 3pt FGs made. With 82. The entire Celtics team made 138, less than half as many as Steph himself made last year; the all time team made fewer as a team than Terrence Ross or Caldwell-Pope alone made last season.

Last year, 90 players made more 3 pters than Bird did in his quintessential season. Robert Covington made 167, almost eclipsing Bird best TWO YEAR RUN in 3s made. And he started the season in the NBDL. He also shot .374, just .002 behind Bird's career 3pt%.

Today's 3 pt shooters are simply A LOT better than they were even a few years ago. And that shooting has completely changed the geometry of basketball. Defenders have to cover so much more ground.[/QUOTE]

The different rules cleared the lanes for guards to dribble drive and penetrate and allowed space specialist to thrive because teams would rather give 3 point shot then a layup. The game has evolve that way.

[QUOTE=robby712]


Also, as defense has gotten better overall, so has offence. [SIZE="3"][B]No more iso iso iso:[/B][/SIZE]


[/QUOTE]
[B]^^^ Pure lies - Lebron James and James Harden lead the league in isolations by isolating on 26% of their possessions:
[/B]
[url]http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time[/url]


[B]Screen-roll makes up another 26% of Lebron's possessions:
[/B]
[url]http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/ball-handler/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time[/url]


[B]Accordingly, screen-roll and isolations make up 52% of Lebron's possessions..
[/B]
This is the way it is for MOST wings in the NBA - screen-roll and isolations make up over 50% of their possesssions... For guys like Reggie Jackson, Chris Paul and Lillard, they make up over 60 and 70% of their possessions:

[url]http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/ball-handler/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time[/url]

[QUOTE=mehyaM24][url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01/gamelog/2001/[/url]

27 & 13 on .541%fg against duncan AND drob


MDE :bowdown:[/QUOTE]

In his prime, that is average for him plus his FG was too low. Spurs were playing illegal defense though. NBA has to change the rules to their favor.

[QUOTE=3ball][B]^^^ Pure ****ing lies - Lebron James and James Harden lead the league in isolations by isolating on 26% of their possessions:
[/B]
[url]http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time[/url]


[B]Screen-roll makes up another 26% of Lebron's possessions:
[/B]
[url]http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/ball-handler/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time[/url]


[B]Accordingly, screen-roll and isolations make up 52% of Lebron's possessions..
[/B]
This is the way it is for MOST wings in the NBA - screen-roll and isolations make up over 50% of their possesssions... For guys like Reggie Jackson, Chris Paul and Lillard, they make up over 60 and 70% of their possessions:

[url]http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/ball-handler/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time[/url][/QUOTE]
so instead of posting league stats, you posted lebron stats.
nice to see that you like lebron so much.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]

[COLOR="Red"][B]Shaq is MDE ever (except the stats below prove MJ was more dominant)
[/B][/COLOR]
[/QUOTE]
[SIZE="3"][B]Comparing MJ's Peak to Shaq's Peak (91-93' vs. 00'-02')
[/B][/SIZE]


[B]REGULAR SEASON[/B]

MJ..... 31.4 ppg.. 58.2% ts.. 122 ORtg.. 0.288 WS/48.. 3 All-Defense [COLOR="Green"]1st[/COLOR] Team.. 2 MVP
Shaq.. 28.6 ppg.. 58.0% ts.. 115 ORtg.. 0.264 WS/48.. 2 All-Defense [COLOR="Red"]2nd[/COLOR] Team.. 1 MVP


[B]PLAYOFFS[/B]

MJ..... 33.7 ppg.. 57.2% TS.. 120 ORtg.. 0.267 WS/48
Shaq.. 29.9 ppg.. 56.2% TS.. 113 ORtg.. 0.238 WS/48


[B]FINALS[/B]

MJ..... 36.3 ppg.. 52.6% fg.. 84.3% ft.. played #5, #3, #9 defenses.. beat Magic-Drexler-Barkley
Shaq.. 35.9 ppg.. 59.5% fg.. 50.6% ft.. played #13, #5, #1 defenses.. beat Miller-Iverson-Kidd


[I]Shaq and MJ's assists and rebounds cancel each other out.. Same with steals and blocks.. Also, Shaq has higher FG%, but MJ's has much higher FT% - so TS% and ORtg were used for efficiency.[/I]

[I]Btw, MJ and Shaq are the only players in modern era to win a championship while leading the league in scoring, except MJ did it 6 times, to Shaq's 1 time.
[/I].

[QUOTE=Rooster]In his prime, that is average for him plus his FG was too low. Spurs were playing illegal defense though. NBA has to change the rules to their favor.[/QUOTE]

those are dominant numbers against 2 of the best defensive bigs in the game - during the playoffs.


those might be somewhere near his career average, but his career average is ATG.


his peak = widely known as MDE.

[QUOTE=3ball]When you say that defenses in the 90's were "so-so", that's based on absolutely nothing, other than your ignorant opinion.[/quote]



league wide drtg along with pace is why the 90s defense was "so-so" compared to 2000-2005


so no, it's not based on opinion. its a well-known historical fact.

look it up.


[quote]Shaq DID NOT dominate the 90's - where do you get this ridiculous idea?.. Shaq didn't win shit and got DESTROYED in the 90's - this is historical fact.. And his stats were nowhere NEAR the best.[/quote]


i don't care much for h2h stats, especially with a perimeter player that didn't see as much competition at sg as shaq did center.


shaq in his third season played peak hakeem to a stastitcal draw. literally.

for their careers:


Hakeem: [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=olajuha01[/url]


domination


other centers?


Mourning: [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=mournal01[/url]


Ewing: [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=ewingpa01&p2=onealsh01[/url]


Robinson: [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=robinda01[/url]


Mutombo: [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=mutomdi01&p2=onealsh01[/url]


Sabonis: [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=sabonar01&p2=onealsh01[/url]


Wallace: [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=wallabe01[/url]



all against the best 90s centers, and shaq still shreded them. he raised his play against the best, and held them in check doing so - look at their career numbers vs the matchips against shaq.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]

Shaq is MDE

[/QUOTE]
MJ's stats and clutch were much better.. That's a fact.


[QUOTE=mehyaM24]

all against the best 90s centers, and shaq still shreded them.

[/QUOTE]
His stats were basically equal with Hakeem and Robinson's... :confusedshrug:

More importantly, he lost with stacked teams over and over again in the 90's.. He didn't win shit until he got an MJ clone... THOSE are the facts.

And his stats were worse than MJ's.

[QUOTE=3ball]When you say that defenses in the 90's were "so-so", that's based on absolutely nothing, other than your ignorant opinion.

[I]Otoh, stable league-wide ORtg proves that it remains equally hard to score across eras.
[/I]


Shaq DID NOT dominate the 90's - where do you get this ridiculous idea?.. Shaq didn't win shit and got DESTROYED in the 90's - this is historical fact.. And his stats were nowhere NEAR the best.

In the 90's, Shaq had more stacked teams than he had with Kobe, but he got destroyed by Houston, MJ's Bulls, and Utah (Utah swept him twice - first in 1997, and then in 1998 when Shaq played with 3 other all-stars).



.
[SIZE="3"][B]Comparing MJ's Peak to Shaq's Peak (91-93' vs. 00'-02')
[/B][/SIZE]


[B]REGULAR SEASON[/B]

MJ..... 31.4 ppg.. 58.2% ts.. 122 ORtg.. 0.288 WS/48.. 3 All-Defense [COLOR="Green"]1st[/COLOR] Team.. 2 MVP
Shaq.. 28.6 ppg.. 58.0% ts.. 115 ORtg.. 0.264 WS/48.. 2 All-Defense [COLOR="Red"]2nd[/COLOR] Team.. 1 MVP


[B]PLAYOFFS[/B]

MJ..... 33.7 ppg.. 57.2% TS.. 120 ORtg.. 0.267 WS/48
Shaq.. 29.9 ppg.. 56.2% TS.. 113 ORtg.. 0.238 WS/48


[B]FINALS[/B]

MJ..... 36.3 ppg.. 52.6% fg.. 84.3% ft.. played #5, #3, #9 defenses.. beat Magic-Drexler-Barkley
Shaq.. 35.9 ppg.. 59.5% fg.. 50.6% ft.. played #13, #5, #1 defenses.. beat Miller-Iverson-Kidd


[I]Shaq and MJ's assists and rebounds cancel each other out.. Same with steals and blocks.. Also, Shaq has higher FG%, but MJ's has much higher FT% - so TS% and ORtg were used for efficiency.[/I]

[I]Btw, MJ and Shaq are the only players in modern era to win a championship while leading the league in scoring, except MJ did it 6 times, to Shaq's 1 time.
[/I].[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying that peak Shaq > peak MJ, but we all know Shaq's impact went beyond his numbers. Peak Shaq was the most disruptive force the game has ever seen. Peak Shaq + scrubs = title contender. Peak Jordan + scrubs = likely first round exit. Also, you cannot omit Shaq's rebounding advantage and simply say that MJ's assists cancel it out. That doesn't even make sense, especially considering Shaq was an outstanding passer in his own right. The only reason peak Jordan ranks higher is FT shooting (which albeit is critically important).

Offensive players are better too

[QUOTE=3ball]MJ's stats and clutch were much better.. That's a fact.[/quote]

mj didn't face the comeptition shaq did at center.


fact


[quote=3ball]His stats were basically equal with Hakeem and Robinson's... :confusedshrug:

More importantly, he lost with stacked teams over and over again in the 90's.. He didn't win shit until he got an MJ clone... THOSE are the facts.

And his stats were worse than MJ's.[/QUOTE]



shaq = better peak player, better career stats, and outplayed all those centers, h2h.

just click those links i posted


and no, shaq won his first ring with kobe playing at role players status. the role player kobe averaged just 16ppg in the finals on piss poor efficiency.

good enough to the 5th best scorer in the series - well behind shaq.


so shaq not only faced better competition at his position (meaning his stats are more impressive), but also won a title with little to no help.


jordan cant claim that - he was too busy letting pippen take over the team e.g. in playmaking, defending and leaderhsip.


basically without pippen, jordan was 1-9 in the postseason.

They are shooting threes at a higher rate and better % than past eras, so of course they will have higher points per 100 possessions.

[QUOTE=J Shuttlesworth]They are shooting threes at a higher rate and better % than past eras, so of course they will have higher points per 100 possessions.[/QUOTE]

Defensive players not being allowed to lay a finger on a player with out a whistle has something to do with it...

[QUOTE=J Shuttlesworth]

They are shooting threes at a higher rate and better % than past eras, so of course they will have higher points per 100 possessions.
[/QUOTE]
Again, this is FACTUALLY incorrect, yet another lie by you guys - in 1997, teams attempted 16.8 threes per game, at 36.0%.

That's more than the 16.0 threes on 35.8% in 2007, yet ORtg was the same in 2007 as it was in 1997 (106.5 to 106.7).

It was the same thing in 2008 and 2009 - teams also attempted approximately the same number of threes at the same percentage as 1997, yet ORtg was higher than 1997.

So that destroys your ignorant theory that was based on nothing - it's better to pay attention to the FACTS, rather than make up your own bullshit.

[QUOTE=3ball]Again, this is FACTUALLY incorrect, yet another lie by you guys - in 1997, teams attempted 16.8 threes per game, at 36.0%.

That's more than the 16.0 threes on 35.8% in 2007, yet ORtg was the same in 2007 as it was in 1997 (106.5 to 106.7).

It was the same thing in 2008 and 2009 - teams also attempted approximately the same number of threes at the same percentage as 1997, yet ORtg was higher than 1997.

So that destroys your ignorant theory that was based on nothing - it's better to pay attention to the FACTS, rather than make up your own bullshit.[/QUOTE]

You do realize the 3 point line was closer in 1997 right? I mean, don't let facts get in the way or anything.

[QUOTE=GrapeApe]

I'm not saying that peak Shaq > peak MJ, but we all know Shaq's impact went beyond his numbers. Peak Shaq was the most disruptive force the game has ever seen. Peak Shaq + scrubs = title contender.

[/quote]
Shaq never played with scrubs - he played with stacked teams all the way up until he began declining in 2006.. :confusedshrug:

After a 41-41 rookie campaign and missed playoffs in 1993, Shaq landed Penny Hardaway in 1994.. From that point forward, he always played with stacked teams... Always.

Otoh, MJ played with scrubs in 1989 - those Bulls won 47 games - they would've missed the 42-win playoff cut without MJ's 33/8/8 on 54%.. So MJ took a would-be lottery team to the ECF and 6 games with the champion Bad Boys.. That's the same thing Lebron did this year (take a lottery team to 6 games with the champs), except Lebron only had to carry his lottery team starting midway through the playoffs (Kyrie and Love were healthy all RS).. Whereas MJ had to carry his lottery team all season.

Plus, MJ's stats were better.. Jordan's 34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51.0% in the 1989 playoffs are better than Lebron's 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7% in the 2015 playoffs - MJ has a 5 point scoring edge and a 10 point efficiency edge, while Lebron has a 4 rebound edge and 1.6 assist edge.. MJ's edges are more valuable for a team's #1 scoring option.


[quote=GrapeApe]

Peak Jordan + scrubs = likely first round exit.

[/QUOTE]
Just for comparison sake - we have proof that MJ's 1989 Bulls were more of a 1-man team than Lebron's 2009 and 2010 Cavs:

We've already established that Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7/49 to win 66 games in 2009, while MJ's supporting cast only added enough help to his 33/8/8/54 to win 47 games in 1989.

[COLOR="Navy"]If you think that all 19 of the Cavs' higher win total was due to worse competition (and not better supporting cast)[/COLOR], then consider how much better that makes MJ's playoff stats look, since they came against far better competition... Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing vastly inferior competition..

Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast was better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of higher-producing veterans, a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.

MJ's 1989 Bulls and the [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s]Jordan Rules[/url] were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast - the superior competition Jordan faced and his 1-man show is underscored by the Bulls being a 6-seed, and severe underdog in every series, compared to the Cavs being the #1 seed and favorite to make the Finals.
.

[QUOTE=GrapeApe]Peak Shaq + scrubs = title contender. Peak Jordan + scrubs = likely first round exit.).[/QUOTE]

when has shaq ever carried scrubs ?


Before he got phil and kobe shaq had a stable of all star caliber guards on his teams at all times.. never won anything. He didn't win a ring until he had a top 10 GOAT and a top 15-20 GOAT (who had top 10 GOAT talent but no longevity to attain top 10 career) on his teams.


shaqs impact has to be the most overrated ever.. he could dominate individually but lacked interest/leadership/clutch ability and had glaring, exploitable weaknesses.. people are just in awe of his size and power like hes a king kong exhibit or something.. as far as effectiveness leading to winning, MJ >>>

get them

[QUOTE=tpols]when has shaq ever carried scrubs ?


Before he got phil and kobe shaq had a stable of all star caliber guards on his teams at all times.. never won anything. He didn't win a ring until he had a top 10 GOAT and a top 15-20 GOAT (who had top 10 GOAT talent but no longevity to attain top 10 career) on his teams.


shaqs impact has to be the most overrated ever.. he could dominate individually but lacked interest/leadership/clutch ability and had glaring, exploitable weaknesses.. people are just in awe of his size and power like hes a king kong exhibit or something.. as far as effectiveness leading to winning, MJ >>>[/QUOTE]


truthfully, there's not much that separates kobe from other perimeter superstars during the first threepeat. especially when healthy, if we talk about sheer, unabated impact.

take the lakers first three peat for example.

in 2000, shaq carried one of heaviest burdens in history, right there with hakeem in 1994. his supposed "second best player", kobe, was outscored by multiple players in the finals, including a role player - and yet the lakers still won that series in 6.

how you ask? shaq average 38 & 17 and played elite defense.


you don't think carter, iverson or even tmac could have replicated role player status in 2000, and not win a ring with MDE shaq?


in 2001, the lakers went 15-1 in the postseason, and att, iverson & carter had arguably their greatest postseasons of their careers. people can act like kobe wasn't replaceable, but these guys would've done the same thing kobe did in his role (run the laker offense aka play off shaq).


2002? this was kobe's worst season as a "superstar". tmac and iverson were probably better anyway, so its not out of the question the lakers STILL three peat.


carter & iverson (even tmac to some degree) all had wear & tear because they had to carry their franchises from day one. playing with shaq would have remedied that, tons.


all in all, kobe is a great player who gets overrated by idiots. there have been tons of "great" players.


[quote]Before he got phil and kobe shaq had a stable of all star caliber guards on his teams at all times.. never won anything. He didn't win a ring until he had a top 10 GOAT and a top 15-20 GOAT (who had top 10 GOAT talent but no longevity to attain top 10 career) on his teams.[/quote]


and just for reference, mj was 1-9 in the playoffs before pippen came to chicago.


so lets set aside the myths and hyperbole for a second.

if shaq wasn't a winner before phil, then jordan was a cancer before pippen and phil.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]in 2006, perimeter players saw a rise in ppg because the elimination of hand checking.
2000-2005 emphasized zone AND handchecking, hence the GOAT era of defense


think about it. look at the percentages, the slow pace albeit efficient defensive rating.


there are very few players who would have dominated that era that ARENT big men.


and by dominating, i mean shooting with incredible efficiency while being elite in every facet of the game (permitting your role).[/QUOTE]

I don't buy into the hype THAT much...clearly the defensive rule changes made it easier for perimeter players to get to the line/basket, but Kobe was putting up huge numbers on top defensive teams in the Playoffs during the 3-peat and he averaged 30/7/6 in 03 with 32 a game in the Playoffs, I believe 06 Kobe would have easily put up similar numbers if he played in the same situation under the old rules. You could point to his 2005 season, but he was playing injured and under different coaches with no real system in place.

And the handchecking was eliminated after the 03-04 season, when Mark Cuban used the Pistons' defense in the finals on Kobe as an argument to get the league to change the rules.

Of course Carter, Iverson, Tmac etc would have a good shot at winning rings with shaq.. they were all nba talents. Probably not a 3 peat seeing how close LA was to not attaining that in the first place.. like coming back from a 15+ point lead in a game 7 Q4 led by Kobe.. all the spurs where kobe just went off.. kings series that was super tight. There's no telling though.


I mean you could replaced Lebron in 2011 with a prime iguodala and Miami still would've had one of the most dominant defenses ever and won a ring.. does that mean Iggy > Lebron? No .. it just means when you're talking replacing a star on his stacked team with another star.. that means theyre still a stacked team, and thus have a good shot at winning.



the 1-9 stuff is funny because MJ had to go against GOAT level teams where he wasn't favored at all.. shaq has gotten straight swept in series that were thought to be toss ups lol.. its apples and oranges.

[QUOTE=GrapeApe]

[B]You do realize the 3 point line was closer in 1997 right?[/B] I mean, don't let facts get in the way or anything.

[/QUOTE]
That doesn't matter or alter the point being made:

In 1997, teams took the same amount of 3-pointers at the same percentage as teams from today's era (2005-2011), yet ORtg was still the same, even though defenders supposedly had less freedom back then.

So the 3-pointer argument holds no water and the point remains - league-wide ORtg has remained stable for the last 30 years, which proves that it remains equally-hard to score across the eras.

This thread proves all the theories about defense that you new fans have created to downgrade previous era players is complete BS.

[QUOTE=ImKobe]

And the handchecking was eliminated after the 03-04 season, when Mark Cuban used the Pistons' defense in the finals on Kobe as an argument to get the league to change the rules.[/QUOTE]


they emphasized them during the 2005-2006 season.


look it up


[quote]I mean you could replaced Lebron in 2011 with a prime iguodala and Miami still would've had one of the most dominant defenses ever and won a ring.. does that mean Iggy > Lebron? No .. it just means when you're talking replacing a star on his stacked team with another star.. that means theyre still a stacked team, and thus have a good shot at winning.[/quote]


lol at this idiot

the idea miami still gets past chicago with iguadala is downright hilarious.

thanks for the good laugh. :oldlol:


your comparison doesn't even make sense.


all those players i mentioned e.g. replacing kobe during the threepeat, have similar impact. iggy doesn't come close to lebron, who is elite on both sides.


if you had said kevin durant, you may have had some credibility left.


[quote]the 1-9 stuff is funny because MJ had to go against GOAT level teams where he wasn't favored at all.. shaq has gotten straight swept in series that were thought to be toss ups lol.. its apples and oranges.[/QUOTE]

the 1987 celtics weren't legendary or goat. neither were the 1985 bucks.

don't let the facts get in the way though.

[QUOTE=3ball]The extra ground today's defenders must cover makes it EASIER for the offensive player, obviously[/QUOTE]
While just minutes previous....

[QUOTE=3ball][I]Otoh, stable league-wide ORtg proves that it remains equally hard to score across eras.[/I][/QUOTE]

Anybody else see a glaring problem?

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]


and no, shaq won his first ring with kobe playing at role players status. [B][SIZE="3"]the role player kobe averaged just 16ppg in the finals on piss poor efficiency. [/SIZE][/B]


[/quote]
So what was Pippen's 15 ppg on 34% in 1996 Finals?

Or his 15 ppg on 41% in 1998 Finals?

The bias against MJ by current fans is hilarioius... :oldlol:
.