Lebron craters the apg and assist % of his teammates

.
[I][COLOR="DarkRed"][B]Lebron achieves his stats by lowering his teammates' PPG and APG.

Specifically, he turns them into play-finishers by lowering their APG (playmaking) and increasing their assisted rate (play-finishing):[/B][/COLOR][/I]



[COLOR="White"]................................................[/COLOR][U][B]APG, ASSIST %[/B][/U][COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR] [B][U]ASSISTED RATE[/U][/B]

[B]Wade [COLOR="Navy"]before[/COLOR] Lebron (04'-10'):[/B][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game]6.6[/url], [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced]34.8%[/url][COLOR="White"]..................[/COLOR][url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting]29.2%[/url] [SIZE="1"][B][COLOR="DarkGreen"]<---- links to nba.com data[/COLOR][/B][/SIZE]
[B]Wade [COLOR="DarkRed"]with[/COLOR][COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] Lebron (11'-14'):[/B][COLOR="white"].....[/COLOR] [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game]4.7[/url], [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced]25.5%[/url][COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR][url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting]40.3%[/url]

[B]Irving [COLOR="Navy"]before[/COLOR] Lebron (12'-14'):[/B][COLOR="white"]....[/COLOR] [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game]5.8[/url], [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced]33.2%[/url][COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR][url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:shooting]31.9%[/url]
[B]Irving [COLOR="DarkRed"]with[/COLOR][COLOR="white"]...[/COLOR] Lebron[COLOR="white"]..[/COLOR] (2015):[/B][COLOR="white"].....[/COLOR] [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game]5.0[/url], [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced]25.6%[/url][COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR][url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting]32.7%[/url]

[B]Bosh [COLOR="Navy"]before[/COLOR] Lebron (04'-10'):[/B][COLOR="white"]......[/COLOR] [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game]2.2[/url], [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced]10.5%[/url][COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR][url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting]55.8%[/url]
[B]Bosh [COLOR="DarkRed"]with[/COLOR][COLOR="white"]...[/COLOR] Lebron (11'-14'):[/B][COLOR="white"]......[/COLOR] [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game]1.6[/url], [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced]8.0%[/url][COLOR="white"] ...................[/COLOR][url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting]71.6%[/url]

[B]Love [COLOR="Navy"]before[/COLOR] Lebron (09'-14'):[/B][COLOR="white"]......[/COLOR] [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:per_game]2.5[/url], [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:advanced]13.0%[/url][COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR][url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:shooting]62.7%[/url]
[B]Love [COLOR="DarkRed"]with[/COLOR] [COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR]Lebron (15'-16'):[/B][COLOR="white"]......[/COLOR] [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game]2.3[/url], [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced]11.4%[/url][COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR][url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting]80.0%[/url]

[B]Mo Will [COLOR="Navy"]before[/COLOR] Lebron (05'-08'):[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:per_game]5.7[/url], [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:advanced]30.2%[/url][COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR][url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2004-2008-sum:shooting]39.2%[/url]
[B]Mo Will [COLOR="DarkRed"]with[/COLOR]... Lebron (09'-10'):[/B][COLOR="white"]..[/COLOR] [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:per_game]4.6[/url], [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:advanced]22.3%[/url][COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR][url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:shooting]47.6%[/url]


[i]FYI...[/i]

[B]Pippen [COLOR="DarkRed"]with[/COLOR][COLOR="white"]...[/COLOR] Jordan 91'-93':[/B][COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game]6.5[/url], [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced]24.5%[/url]
[B]Pippen [COLOR="Navy"]w/out[/COLOR] Jordan 94'-95':[/B][COLOR="white"]......[/COLOR] [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game]5.4[/url], [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced]23.7%[/url]
[B]Pippen [COLOR="DarkRed"]with[/COLOR][COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] Jordan 96'-98':[/B][COLOR="white"]......[/COLOR] [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game]5.8[/url], [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced]25.1%[/url]



Unfortunately, by reducing teammates to play-finishers, Lebron promotes a sophomoric brand of basketball that can't succeed against the best playoff teams, who invariably play a [i]superior[/i] brand of basketball.. Guys like Patty Mills and Boris Diaw are tasked with MAKING PLAYS for the Spurs - they aren't just play-finishers like Shumpert and JR Smith (who are actually more talented).

Futhermore, the supporting cast's predictable play-finishing roles don't work against the best playoff teams, which causes them to routinely underperform and play undercapacity in the Finals (the story is ALWAYS how Lebron's teammates played poorly when it mattered) - since Lebron's teammates play undercapacity against the best teams, the TEAM plays undercapacity/underperforms (i.e. losing as the favorite in 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, and 2011 Finals, or losing when it was 50/50 - [url=http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2014/06/nba_finals_2014_experts_predict_whether_the_heat_or_spurs_will_come_out_on_top_in_the_finals_rematch.html]2014 Finals[/url]).

Now the question is WHY SPECIFICALLY does Lebron turn teammates into play-finishers?.. It's because he employs a point guard style from the forward position - this adds a 2nd low-assisted, high time of possession player IN ADDITION to the existing point guard, which gives teammates less opportunity to assist and less time with the ball than other teams whose forwards have normal assisted rates and time of possession.

That's the difference between 2/6 and 6/6.. MJ got the most out of his teammates - he elevated teammates so the team played to full capacity and never lost as the favorite.. Otoh, Lebron reduces teammates to play-finishers, which leads to team underperformance and losing as the favorite.
.

:sleeping

No matter how hard you try, Lebron > Jordan

This is just really pathetic...even for you. Wade's assist went down...nooooooo, really? You realize that Wade never liked having to handle the ball so much right? He was forced into the PG duties because there was no other option...he always wanted to play more off ball. The fact that he was hurt a lot also lowered his numbers, obviously.

The differences with these other guys is just idiotic...comparing guys like Bosh, Love, Mo, and Irving to before and after...all four guys were on shit teams where they could do whatever they pleased for the most part, so of course their assist numbers were higher. You are going to have the ball in your hands less when you play on a better team and especially with a player WHO IS BETTER THAN YOU. That's kind of how it works, genius.

Mods, seriously?

Lebron had 43,300 minutes entering the 2016 regular season.. Conservatively, if we assume Jordan's 3000 college minutes translates to 1000 NBA minutes, [B]that means Jordan reached 43,300 minutes right before the 1998 playoffs.[/B]

[I]Here's Jordan's 1998 playoff stats at 35 years old vs. Lebron's 2016 regular season stats at 30 years old:[/I]


[SIZE="1"][COLOR="Red"][I]JORDAN[/I]: 32.4 ppg.. 1.6 oreb.. 3.8 dreb.. 3.5 apg.. 2.1 tov.. 1.5 spg.. 0.6 bpg.. 46.2 fg.. 54.5 ts.. 117 ORtg.. 28.1 PER[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Blue"][I]LEBRON[/I]: 26.2 ppg.. 1.4 oreb.. 6.2 dreb.. 6.4 apg.. 3.5 tov.. 1.4 spg.. 0.6 bpg.. 50.1 fg.. 56.9 ts.. 112 ORtg.. 27.4 PER[/COLOR][/SIZE]


[i]Btw, Lebron's body is only 30 years old, and therefore better equipped to handle 43k minutes than MJ's much older, 35-year old body.. And obviously, MJ's superior stats are [U]PLAYOFF[/U] stats, not early regular season like Lebron's.[/i]



[I]Outside the paint, defender can sag off their man, UNTIL defender meets edge of paint[/I]


That's where defensive 3 seconds kicks in - since the paint blocks defenders from further sagging on all sides, today's defenders outside the paint aren't allowed to be further away from their man than previous eras... Previous eras were allowed to sag off their man to the edge of the paint as well (see image above) with the same 3 second limit inside the paint.

The only exception where today's defenders outside the paint are allowed to be a FURTHER distance from their man than previous eras is during "flooding". But flooding merely attempts to make today's concentration of strongside defenders equivalent to the un-spaced courts of previous eras, and therefore wasn't a viable strategy back then.. Flooding also wasn't viable because the unspaced courts of previous eras activated the NBA's legal paint-camping provision, which is a superior defensive tactic to flooding..



[I]Inside the paint, today's defenders must "follow" their man[/I]

Today's defender must follow their man around the paint to stay within "armslength", per the defensive 3 seconds rule.

"Armslength" is much closer than the allowance in previous eras, where defenders could remain in the paint while their man was up to 3 feet outside the paint - so defenders could stand under the rim while their man was 8 feet away on the block, or 12 feet away below the FT line.

Today's defender can't do that - they must stand right next to their man in both cases to fulfill the "armslength" requirement... Accordingly, paint defenders in previous eras had more freedom - they didn't have "follow" their man to stay within armslength like today's defenders.




Unlike the aforementioned zone qualities of paint-camping where defenders can be far from their man, "armslength" is the exact opposite of a zone - infact, "armslength" is the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder.. Nonetheless, this strict, no-zone policy governs today's defenders in the most important area of the floor: the paint.


If big men could still paint-camp under the rim while out of "armslength" of their man, that would be preferable to today's flooding, which requires the big man to leave the rim unprotected and contest guards outside the paint - extra rotations are necessary since the weakside is left a man down.

Paint camping has ALWAYS been a more equitable way to defend the court, since it doesn't leave the rim unprotected or require big men to contest guards on the perimeter, nor does it leave the weakside a man down or require extra rotations.

whatever lebron does, it makes the team into a really good offensive unit even when heat used to play at a slow pace because of their defense which was best suited for half court defense.

So Lebron ball is good enough to become a top 2 team.:applause:

How about Jordan is better than Lebron because he is better at basketball.
Truth bombs here.

[B][I][COLOR="DarkRed"]Kobe won his rivalry with Duncan and defeated him in the clutch:[/COLOR][/I][/B]


[IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/EEr1d9kg2vAUU/giphy.gif[/IMG]



[B][I][COLOR="DarkRed"]Otoh, Lebron choked in the clutch and missed the walk-off attempt - he needed Ray Allen to save him:[/COLOR][/I][/B]


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-05-2015/XxRuyC.gif[/IMG]



[B][I][COLOR="DarkRed"]Naturally, Jordan MADE his walk-off attempt in his first meeting against Duncan/Popovich to send the game into overtime:[/COLOR][/I][/B]


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-05-2015/rP-QUs.gif[/IMG]


[B]
[COLOR="DarkRed"][I]After hitting the walk-off, MJ dominated overtime, including 2 dunks over Duncan[/I]:[/COLOR][/B]


[IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/26FPq7nUqs2V8LyNO/giphy.gif[/IMG]



[B][I][COLOR="Navy"]In his 2nd meeting against Duncan, MJ dominated Duncan even more thoroughly:[/COLOR][/I][/B]


[IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/TbKAH5Pl5N91S/giphy.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-11-2015/cyFnUr.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/VgAj53MW9ee5O/giphy.gif[/IMG]


[B]It's obvious that Jordan only ever DOMINATED Duncan and guys like Duncan - they weren't "[I]rivals[/I]" like they are for Kobe and Lebron.. :rolleyes.. 6/6[/B]






Here's the problem in the Orlando series - as always, Lebron's teammates played horribly, so they lost - who cares how about Lebron's stats if teammates can't play well while Lebron accumulates those stats.. If Lebron's teammates could play WELL alongside him, he'd be 6/6 already.

But it's impossible for teammates to play well when Lebron's presence significantly lowers their APG and PPG - this is [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841]statistical fact[/url].. With teammates playing under capacity, the team plays under capacity and comes up short as the favorite, just like they did in 2009 and other years.

Since Lebron significantly reduces the PPG and APG of teammates, he doesn't elevate teammates, which is the hallmark of a great player.. This is why he isn't top 10 all time - you can't be top 10 all-time if teammates play worse alongside you and it leads to team underachievement.

Whereas MJ's teams never played below capacity or lost as the favorite, because he never got his stats at the expense of teammates - he never reduced the PPG or APG of teammates like Lebron did, yet his stats are still better than Lebron's - as the OP shows, MJ had higher PPG, APG, Steals, efficiency and of course, more rings.




[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]


Kobe had to do more with less. He wasn't as physically gifted as MJ so his skills needed to be on point. I do think that you can argue that [B][SIZE="3"]he was the most skilled 2 guard eve[/SIZE]r[/B].


[/QUOTE]

This is subjective, depending on what your definition of "skills" is.


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-03-2015/P5BrOZ.gif[/IMG]


But what truly separated Jordan, was his shot-making ability inside 15 feet - unmatched in the history of the game.. Phil Jackson said something like "Oscar was amazing shotmaker in the paint, but MJ was by far the best of all time" or something pretty close to that.. he was talking about wing players.

As the GIF above shows, MJ made some things look so easy, you don't realize that's the best offense you've ever seen.

A lot of people think Lebron is a fantastic shotmaker in the paint, but he plays in the 3-point era, which opens up the middle of the floor by forcing defenders to occupy the 3-point line.. With the middle of the floor open, penetrators can beat perimeter defenders or mismatched shading bigs, and then face and open paint while defenders chase from behind and the sides.. This has inflated [i]everyone's[/i] at-rim percentages - even Austin Rivers can be a superstar by beating bigs on the perimeter and finishing on unprotected rims:


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-28-2015/iDsifM.gif[/IMG]



Otoh, the middle of the floor remained crowded at all times in previous eras because no one shot 3-pointers - this forced wing players like MJ into a lot of mid-range pull-ups because the sheer number of players always standing in the paint frequently sealed the paint.


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-23-2015/bZE6Lj.gif[/IMG]


Also, it's evident that without 3-pointers in previous eras, there was no one spacing the weakside, so defenders could remain on the strongside, eliminating the need to flood.. With all defenders on the strongside, wing players must make plays in a smaller space.. Otoh, in today's game, the weakside is always spaced to reduce the number of strongside defenders and give players more room to make a play.

The above situation of overcrowded paints caused by lack of 3-point shooting/spacing, was exacerbated by legal-paint-camping, which was allowable under certain common conditions pre-2005.. Otoh, in today's game, the new defensive 3 seconds rule banned paint-camping and is designed to "open up the game" - according to the NBA, the [I]absence[/I] of today's defensive 3 seconds rule would allow "[I]frontcourt players to stand in the middle of the lane and discourage cutting, passing and dribble penetration[/I].".. See 2nd last question:

[url]http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html[/url]

[QUOTE=3ball]His teams don't play equal-opportunity like all the teams that beat him do (Spurs, Warriors, 2011 Mavs).. His ball-dominance won't allow equal-opportunity and the best brand of basketball, so equal or less-talented teams can pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).[/QUOTE]

He lost in 2014 because his team could not stop the Spurs offense not that his offense was bad. Also in 2009 it was defense. He was incredible offensively and 2011 he was trash in the finals .

[QUOTE=3ball]His ball-dominance doesn't allow his teams to run optimal equal-opportunity offenses like all the teams that beat him do (Spurs, Warriors, 2011 Mavs)..

Since his ball-dominance doesn't allow the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented teams can pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).[/QUOTE]
what optimal offense? heat lost 2014 finals because of their poor defense and lol at using 2011 and 2009.

[QUOTE=3ball]so why didn't Pippen's assists go down alongisde MJ - Pippen's assists went UP alongisde MJ.

everyone else's cratered alongside lebron..... but somehow pippen's went UP alongside Jordan and DOWN when Jordan wasn't there... hmmm....

what is it about mj's presence that made it easier for Pippen to get an assist... hmmmm... that's a tough one boss.. ahem... off-ball.. ahem
.[/QUOTE]

...because they slowed down the offense and there were less fast break opportunities, for one. Replacing Michael Jordan with Pete Myers obviously didn't help. Doesn't take a genius to realize you are going to get more assist passing the rock to Jordan and not Pete Myers. Comparing these guys to Scottie Pippen is just idiotic. The circumstances are not even close to the same.

[B]MJ vs Lebron prime vs. prime stats:[/B]

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=387520[/url]


[b]percentage of team points while on the floor - jordan monster in 4th[/b]

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=392376[/url]


[b]jordan most double-teamed player everr[/b]

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210[/url]


[b]No seriously - this is a foul[/b]

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=391306[/url]


[B]today's defender must follow their man:[/B]

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=390393&page=2[/url]





[QUOTE=Rose'sACL]

lol at using 2011 and 2009.

[/QUOTE]
lol at your beta denials of the facts... It's a statistical fact that ball-dominators [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385794]travel the shortest distances[/url] during games despite having the [url=http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?sort=TOP&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs]highest time of possession[/url] (meaning they stand around a super-ton).

In Lebron's case, his low-assisted, ball-dominance comes from the forward position, so it's in ADDITION to the point guard - he turns a normally high-assisted, frontcourt position into a low-assisted, ball-dominant position.. This extra position of low-assisted, ball-dominance lowers his team's [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446]assist frequency[/url] relative to his peers.

Furthermore, the extra position of low-assisted, ball-dominance that Lebron adds to every team eliminates any chance of his teams running an equal-opportunity offense or the playing best brand of basketball, which allows equal or less-talented teams to pull upsets by playing a [I]better[/I] brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..

Ultimately, it takes more ability to achieve great stats within an equal-opportunity, winning framework, than the grade school-level, clearout/playground style that ball-dominators like Lebron need to put up numbers.



.
[B]All-star appearances while playing with Kareem:[/B]

Magic 10
Worthy 6
Bob Dandridge 2
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Oscar 2
Flynn Robinson 1
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
[I][COLOR="Indigo"]8 players, 25 appearances = 6/9 in Finals[/COLOR][/I]




[B]All-star appearances while playing with Magic:[/B]

Kareem 10
Worthy 6
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
[I][COLOR="Indigo"]5 players, 20 appearances = 5/9 in Finals[/COLOR][/I]




[B]All-star appearances while playing with Bird:[/B]

Parish 9
McHale 6
Tiny Archibald 3
D Johnson 1
_____________
[COLOR="Green"][I]4 players, 19 appearances = 3/5 in Finals[/I][/COLOR]




[B]All-star appearances while playing with Shaq:[/B]

Kobe 7
Wade 3
Penny 2
Van Exel 1
Eddie Jones 1
Horace Grant 1
_________________
[I][COLOR="Indigo"]6 players, 15 appearances = 4/6 in Finals[/COLOR][/I]




[B]All-star appearances while playing with Lebron:[/B]

Wade 4
Bosh 4
Kyrie 1
Mo Williams 1
Zydrunas 1
______________
[COLOR="DarkRed"][I]5 players, 11 appearances = 2/6 in Finals[/I][/COLOR]




[B]All-star appearances while playing with Duncan:[/B]

Parker 6
Robinson 3
Ginobili 2
________________
[COLOR="black"]3 players, 11 appearances = 5/6 in Finals [/COLOR]




[B]All-star appearances while playing with MJ:[/B]

Pippen 6
_______________
[COLOR="Red"][I]1 player, 6 appearances = 6/6 in Finals[/I][/COLOR]
.

Your actually stupid 3brick he lost because of defense in 2009 and 2014. He played like trash in 2011. Have you played basketball or watched it in your life you dumb nerd.:cheers:

Have actually played a game in your life. Your probably one of those fat kids in school who liked to talk about ball but we're to slow and unskilled to play.:lol

.
[COLOR="Blue"][SIZE="2"][B]Lebron significantly lowers the APG and assist % of his teammates:[/B][/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="Green"]Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'):[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game]6.6[/url], [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced]34.8%[/url] [/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]Wade apg and assist % with[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] Lebron (11'-14'):[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game]4.7[/url], [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced]25.5%[/url] [/COLOR]

[COLOR="Green"]Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'):[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game]5.8[/url], [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced]33.2[/url][/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]Irving apg and assist % with[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] Lebron (2015):[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 5.2, 25.0%[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Green"]Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'):[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 2.2, 10.5%[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]Bosh apg and assist % with[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] Lebron (11'-14'):[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game]1.6[/url], [COLOR="White"].[/COLOR][url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced]8.0%[/url] [/COLOR]

[COLOR="Green"]Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 2.5, 13.0%[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 2.2, 10.7%[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Green"]Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 6.3, 30.0%[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]Mo Williams apg and assist % with[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] Lebron:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 4.1, 20.1%[/COLOR]

[B]FYI...
[/B]
[COLOR="Green"]Pippen apg and assist % with[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] Jordan 91'-93':[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game]6.5[/url], [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced]24.5[/url][/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]Pippen apg and assist % w/out Jordan 94'-95':[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game]5.4[/url], [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced]23.7[/url][/COLOR]
[COLOR="Green"]Pippen apg and assist % with[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] Jordan 96'-98':[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game]5.8[/url], [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced]25.1[/url][/COLOR]


[I]Source: basketball-reference.com[/I]
.

Fat boy have you watched a game. You probably just look at Jordan gifs you unathletic weirdo.

[IMG]http://lookingforamerica.us/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Nba-Basketball-Court-Dimensions-300x300.jpg[/IMG]


In today's game, if a defender's man is behind the 3-point line (with or without the ball), the defender can sag off an unlimited amount, even all the way to the baseline, [I][COLOR="Navy"]BUT ONLY IF[/COLOR][/I] the paint doesn't get in the way.

Unfortunately, as the diagram shows, almost nowhere on the 3-point arc can a defender sag off and not eventually meet the paint - in these instances, the defender only has 3 seconds in the paint, which is the same as previous eras, who were also allowed to sag into the paint for 3 seconds.

However, defenders in previous eras had an advantage specifically when sagging off [I][COLOR="Navy"]corner/sideline[/COLOR][/I] 3-point shooters - they were allowed to paint-camp "[I]with no time limits[/I]" in the "outside" lane, which is the outer partition running up the sides of the paint, shown above.. Today's defenders can't do this - they have 3 seconds in the "outside" lane, just like they do in the inside lane.. [I]Given this disadvantage in sagging off on corner/sideline 3-point shooters, today's defender has less freedom in sagging off shooters than previous eras.[/I]
.

another garbage thread brought to you by...

Instead of looking at these players assist ratios, you should look at their postseason success before LeBron, then with LeBron (with Wade obviously being the exception)

[QUOTE=Duffy Pratt]

01-02 Lakers won 58 games and completed the threepeat.

02-03 Lakers had the same core, won 50 games and got knocked out in the second round.

03-04 They added Malone and Payton, lost Horry, won 56 games and got eliminated in the finals. Looks like shaking up the core improved things, but like you said, not enough.

[/QUOTE]
I realized how your Lakers example makes my point - let's say Shaq retires after the 2002 season, and the remaining core players are healthy and in their prime with a chip on their shoulder to prove themselves without the self-proclaimed Most Dominant Ever (MDE)..

Now if Kobe leads that team to 55 wins in 2003, that achievement would be due to 3-peat chemistry and know-how, not talent... No one is going to say he had a stacked squad like young fans say about the 1994 Bulls... [I]Fox, Fisher, and Horry don't represent talent - if you win 55 with those guys, it's due to chemistry.. It's the same thing when Pippen won 55 with Grant, BJ and Longley - they won 55 based on chemistry, not talent.[/I]

Now let's say Kobe DOESN'T lead that untalented supporting cast of Fox/Fisher/Horry to 55 wins, and instead wins 45 - then clearly, the team didn't have great chemistry to begin with and won their 3-peat from 2000-2002 based more on TALENT then chemistry (the talent being the monster duo of top 10 all-time players Shaq/Kobe)... Winning via talent is actually more likely, given how the Lakers very tenuous, flimsy chemistry was exposed in 2003 and 2004, when it completely broke down... Furthermore, the stats below show that MJ carried the far bigger load - Shaq/Kobe clearly [I]shared[/I] the duties more than MJ/Pippen did.. MJ had to do more, due to a lesser cast - the data is clear.

Jordan scored a FAR higher proportion of his team's points while on the floor than Shaq or Kobe... [I][COLOR="Navy"]Shaq got twice the rebounds and blocks, but MJ had twice the assists and steals - so those categories cancel out and we're left with scoring[/COLOR][/I].. The stats below are undeniable and prove MJ had less help than Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Lebron, Magic, Bird, etc, etc... Just like I've been saying all along.. And keep in mind - we're comparing 34-35 year old MJ to prime Shaq, and MJ's 2nd three-peat teams were supposed to be MORE "stacked" (:rolleyes: ):


[COLOR="White"]................[/COLOR][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="2"]Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor[/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR][B]RS[/B][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B]RS 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]36.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]40.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]37.7[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]46.3[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]40.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]50.4[/url]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]36.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]42.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]39.7[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]48.8[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]43.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]49.1[/url]


[I][B]SHAQ 2000[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]35.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]38.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs]34.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]39.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]38.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]43.9[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]33.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]38.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]33.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]34.0[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]35.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]26.2[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]33.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]35.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]33.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]25.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]38.1[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]28.2[/url]


[I][B]PIPPEN 1997[/B][/I].... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]24.7[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]22.2[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]24.6[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]25.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]25.1[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]26.4[/url]
[I][B]PIPPEN 1998[/B][/I].... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]24.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]19.7[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]21.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]15.8[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]22.1[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]14.7[/url]


[I][B]KOBE 2000[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]27.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]29.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs]26.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]27.0[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]19.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]15.7[/url]
[I][B]KOBE 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]32.7[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]34.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]31.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]37.0[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]25.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]23.7[/url]
[I][B]KOBE 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]30.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]31.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]29.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]34.0[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]27.2[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]32.4[/url]
.

Your stupid as hell. Lebrons teams became trash when he does not play . I'm actually from Chicago and An idiot can see that Lebron has a huge impact on his team success.

Lebron achieves his stats by significantly reducing the APG and PPG of teammates - this is statistical [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11709582&postcount=17]fact[/url].

Not only does Lebron reduce teammates' APG, but he increases their assisted rate, proving he turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers..

Naturally, his teammates' basic play-finishing roles no longer succeed against the best teams in the playoffs, which explains their consistent underperformance in the Finals - the story is always how Lebron's teammates underperformed against the best teams, leading to TEAM underperformance by losing as the favorite (2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, 2011 Finals) or when it's 50/50 [url=http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2014/06/nba_finals_2014_experts_predict_whether_the_heat_or_spurs_will_come_out_on_top_in_the_finals_rematch.html](2014 Finals)[/url].

The reason Lebron turns teammates into play-finishers is [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12056301&postcount=60]threefold[/url].

[QUOTE=3ball]When Lebron left the Cavs in 2011, it wasn't just Lebron that left - Mo Williams, Varejao, Shaq, Zydrunas and Delonte were all gone too.. Don't be dumb and think it was just Lebron that left... And this season, obviously, Bosh and Wade missed significant time with injury.. Again, don't be dumb and ignore this.

Otoh, it's a statistical fact that Lebron lowers the assist capacity of his team relative to other teams by turning a normally high-assisted frontcourt position into a low-assisted one... This is a statistical fact - Lebron's teams have [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446]far lower assist frequency[/url] than his peers.. And as this thread shows - Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving, and Mo Williams all have significantly lower apg and assist % alongside Lebron (while Pippen's assists went UP alongside off-ball Jordan, and DOWN when Jordan left).
Furthermore, the extra position of low-assisted, ball-dominance that Lebron adds to every team eliminates any chance of his teams running an equal-opportunity offense or the playing best brand of basketball, which allows equal or less-talented teams to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..

Ultimately, it takes more ability to achieve great stats within an equal-opportunity, winning framework, than the grade school-level, clearout/playground style that ball-dominators like Lebron need to put up
numbers.[/QUOTE]

The Miami Heat missed the playoffs the Nets and Celtics got in over them that's disgusting. You have to be blind to not see how he helps his team win.

Why does it matter if his teammates assists go down if them being the stars of the team did not lead to success aka Love,Irving,Williams and Bosh.

[QUOTE=3ball]

Lebron's low-assisted, point-guard play from the SF position means that every team he's on has an extra point guard... His presence as an extra low-assisted player reduces the playmaking capacity of teammates (since they can't toss him a dime) and their playmaking responsibility (since he's dominating the ball).. Not surprisingly, teammates get far less assists alongside Lebron and all of Lebron's teams have far lower assist frequency than his peers.

[/QUOTE][QUOTE=KellhitEmup15]

Why does it matter if his teammates assists go down if them being the stars of the team did not lead to success aka Love,Irving,Williams and Bosh.

[/QUOTE]
Lebron's ball-dominance turns his teammates from playmakers into play-finishers, which prevents the team from running equal opportunity offenses like the Spurs and Warriors use, where all 5 players share the playmaking responsibility.

Since Lebron's ball-dominance prevents his teams from playing the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented opponents are able to pull upsets by playing a [I]better[/I] brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..

Btw, it takes more ability to achieve great stats within an equal-opportunity, winning framework, than the grade school-level, clearout/playground style that ball-dominators like Lebron need to get their numbers.

Your actually a dimwit. Fake ass intellectual. Your probably some unathletic nerd.

I'd take a wild guess and say Bosh, Kyrie, and Love would trade half an assist and zero playoff success for deep playoff runs and championships

- after their top 3 guys who average double figures - the Pistons had Laimbeer/Rodman/Aguirre/Vinnie/Edwards like the Pistons, 1991 Lakers, 1992 Blazers, 1993 Suns, or ANY good team (like today's Spurs or Warriors) have numerous quality players past their top 3 guys.

The Bulls' team was built differently from most good teams - they had 2 good players, 1 role player, and literally 8+ interchangeable stiffs...


4. 1994. Jordan up and QUIT. He is not traded for additional talent...he QUIT. The Bulls scrambled to replace him, and with whom? None other than the legendary Pete Myers. Yes, they also added Kerr and Kukoc, but neither made a significant impact.

The '94 Bulls then went 55-27...which was deceptive. Why? Because Pippen and Grant missed a combined 22 games. Had those played in almost every game, they easily would have won 60+ games. No question about it. Oh, and Pippen was now considered a Top-FIVE player in the league...which, he was. And Grant? An ELITE PF who had a HUGE IMPACT on EVERY team he played with. And easily the best interior defender on the Bulls. Not only that, but his offensive impact could be measured by his staggering ORtgs.


[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]

[B][COLOR="Red"]The "if this... if that... and if this" argument for why Bulls could've beaten Knicks, Pacers and Rockets in 1994 Playoffs:[/COLOR][/B]

[I]Ok, the '94 55-27 Bulls then lost a close and controversial seven game series against 56-26 Knicks in the ECSF's. In fact, they were ONE PLAY AWAY FROM WINNING THAT SERIES IN SIX GAMES.

The 56-26 Knicks then polished off the Pacers in the ECF's. The same team that Chicago dominated during the season, 4-1. So, the likely scenario was that had Chicago beaten the Knicks, they would have gone to the Finals.

As it was, the 56-26 Knicks lost a game seven to the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals...by four points. In a series that they outscored Houston (just as Chicago had outscored NY in the ECSF's.)[/I]

So, we KNOW that this was NOT an "ordinary second round losing team." They were actually a CHAMPIONSHIP contending team.

[/QUOTE]


[QUOTE]

5. 1995. In addition to not having Jordan, this team no longer had the ELITE PF, Grant. TWO KEY players from their '93 title team. Somehow, Pippen, a Top-5 player in the league, WILLED this roster to a 34-31 record. Think about that. Pippen could carry an MJ-less and Grant-less roster to a winning record, but Jordan never had a winning season without PIPPEN (much less without Grant/Rodman.)

[/QUOTE]
You're bragging about a .500 record?... Many players worse than Pippen have led teams to .500 records.

Furthermore, the Bulls' 1995 roster improved in various ways - starting SG Ron Harper was brought on board, and Kukoc's 2nd year stats drastically improved to 16 ppg on 51% (compared to 10 ppg on 43% in 1994).

And again, Pippen was not a top 5 player in 1995.. 1995/prime David Robinson, Barkley or Malone were all better, along with Shaq (29/13/2.5 blk)... Ewing (25/11/2.7).... and Alonzo (21/10/3).

All these guys would laugh you out of the room if you said Pippen was better, and their stats destroy Pippen's... Don't overrate 22 ppg on 49%.






made several improvements to their roster in 1995You're bragging about a .500 record
Ok, MJ decided to come back to steal another ring. He returns and play the last 17 games of the season. In game five, he poured in 55 points. Clearly, he is completely back, and in fact, when the playoffs arrive, he is the most refreshed and healthiest player in the post-season.


In round 1 MJ proves he is completely back. He hung a 32-7-6 .495 series...which was similar to his '93 playoff averages.

In round 2, the Bulls are beaten 4-2, by a team with Horace GRANT, who put up a staggering 18-11 .647 series. Clearly, it is GRANT who was a KEY piece to Shaq's Magic.

However, the Magic were then SWEPT by a 47-35 team in the Finals.

Think about that. The '94 team came within an eyelash of at least getting to the ECF's, and likely would have given Houston all they could handle in the Finals...since we know that the team that beat the '94 Bulls outplayed that Rockets team. And yet, with MJ basically replacing GRANT on the '95 Bulls...MJ couldn't come close to what the '94 Bulls had accomplished in the post-season.


Now, 3ball (and other's) will tell you NONSENSE, like, you could easily replace Grant (or perhaps even Pippen...which was basically IMPOSSIBLE to replace.) Now, if that were the case, then how about this...

Let's replace PETE MYERS, who wasn't even a Top-20 SG in '94, with even an average SG. Likely a title. But how about replacing him with Reggie Miller, or Joe Dumars, or Mitch Richmond. Does anyone here honestly believe that one of those guys would NOT have made a HUGE difference?


6. 1996. Chicago management took one look at the disappointing '95 season and realized...hey, we can't win without an ELITE PF. So, they went out and grabbed HOFer Dennis Rodman. And the rest was history.

The '96 Bulls had an MJ, who replaced Grant on a 55+ win team, and then ADDED HOFer Rodman.

CLEARLY, the Bulls in the 90's were the most STACKED team in the league. And before 3ball mentions that players like Bird or Magic had better supporting casts...those teams were NOT playing in the 90's. The 90's were a watered down era, where most teams only had one great player, and possibly two. There were no teams like the early 80's Sixers, or late 80's Pistons, or the 80's Celtics and Lakers. Not even close.

One more time...we KNOW how the Bulls played withOUT Jordan. They were a 55+ win team, that could seriously challenge for a title. Now, let's remove the best player from every other team in the 90's...guys like Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, K. Malone, Barkley, etc...

How many rings do the Bulls win without Jordan in that scenario?

I say they easily win six.

THAT tells you all you need to know about MJ's supporting casts in the 90's.[/QUOTE]

.
[I]In the picture below, weakside 3-point shooters (spacing) have drawn defenders away from the strongside.. If Joakim Noah doesn't leave #20 Mozgov and flood to the strongside, the strongside will only have 2 defenders to contest Lebron.
[/I]

[img]http://i61.tinypic.com/2z7mnvm.png[/img]



[I]Otoh, the 80's and 90's didn't shoot 3-pointers like today's game - those eras didn't have shooters on the weakside (spacing) drawing defenders away from the strongside, so the strongside was [i]already flooded with all 5 defenders[/i].. With all 5 defenders on the strongside and multiple defenders already standing where Joakim Noah flooded to, floods weren't necessary:
[/I]

[img]https://media.giphy.com/media/xT0BKishrkuHZV0IDK/giphy.gif[/img]


Ultimately, spacing causes today's defenders to make extra rotations.. But without that spacing (previous eras), defenders were already in closer proximity and the rotations weren't necessary.

Spacing and defensive movement offset each other, which is why league-wide offensive rating (the stat measuring how hard it is to score) has been stable for 30 years.. Excluding a brief downswing from 1999-2004, ORtg has ranged between 105-108 since 1980, including an all-time high of 108.3 in 2009.. The minor shifts within that 105-108 range are due to style of play differences between the eras that affect inputs to the ORtg calculation, such as offensive rebounding rate and FT rate.

30 years of stable ORtg proves the difficulty of scoring hasn't changed, and the changes in offensive strategy (spacing) and defensive strategy (extra rotations) are offsetting - you either have extra rotations required by spacing and defensive 3 seconds (today's game), or the rotations aren't necessary because there is no spacing or defensive 3 seconds (previous eras).
.

You hate lebron...we get iiiiiiiit. Stop beating this dead horse into dust.

.
[size="4"][COLOR="DarkRed"]Insightful stats regarding MJ from NBA.com's advanced stats[/COLOR][/size]



[B][I][COLOR="Navy"]Here are stats linked to NBA.com's advanced stat pages that show old MJ carried a larger load during his 1997 and 1998 championship runs than Shaq's 2000-2002 runs:[/COLOR][/I][/B]

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12092334&postcount=1[/url]



[B][I][COLOR="Navy"]Here's more linked stats that show old MJ carried a larger load during his 1997 and 1998 championship runs than prime Lebron's 2012 & 2013 runs:[/COLOR][/I][/B]

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12095171&postcount=1[/url]



[I][COLOR="Navy"][B]Here's more linked stats that show old MJ scored a higher proportion of team points while on the floor than every year of Lebron's career:[/B][/COLOR][/I]

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12056041&postcount=48[/url]



[B][I][COLOR="Navy"]Here's linked stats for prime vs. prime - Jordan's 6-year prime (1988-1993) to Lebron's 6-year prime (2009-2014):[/COLOR][/I][/B]

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12055910&postcount=35[/url]



[B][I][COLOR="Navy"]Here's a comparison of overall stats for MJ and Lebron's entire careers:[/COLOR][/I][/B]

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12056271&postcount=57[/url]

.

[QUOTE=Smoke117][B]You hate lebron[/B]...we get iiiiiiiit. Stop beating this dead horse into dust.[/QUOTE]
Plus he's quite jealous and fearful of him. That's why he goes through great lengths to try to downplay LeBron's greatness and prop up guys like Shumpert, Delonte', Mo and reject J.R Smith.

[QUOTE=3ball]:facepalm .. It's not my fault no one can explain why Wade, Kyrie, Mo Williams, Bosh, and Love's assists went way down alongside Lebron, while Pippen's went up alongside MJ (and down when MJ was gone).

I can explain it though (see thread cliffs above).
.[/QUOTE]

You have exposed yourself as a troll get out of here.

Yea, he's ball dominant point forward. Amazing discovery

That is why he will be 1.5/7 soon

C'mon guys, we are having a mature basketball discussion here.

[QUOTE=LikeABosh]

[B]Yea, he's ball dominant point forward. Amazing discovery
[/B]
[/QUOTE]
[B]He's a point forward who significantly reduces the APG and assist % of his teammates, including Wade, Kyrie, Mo Williams, Bosh, and Love.. Not surprisingly, all of his TEAMS have low assist frequency:
[/B]

[I]POSSESSIONS PER ASSIST (HIGHER NUMBER MEANS LESS PASSING)[/I]


[I]2015 Cavs[/I]: 92.3/22.1 = [COLOR="red"]4.18[/COLOR]
[I]2014 Heat[/I]: 91.2/22.5 = [COLOR="Red"]4.05[/COLOR]
[I]2013 Heat[/I]: 90.7/23.0 = [COLOR="Red"]3.94[/COLOR]
[I]2012 Heat[/I]: 91.2/20.0 = [COLOR="Red"]4.56[/COLOR]
[I]2011 Heat[/I]: 90.9/20.0 = [COLOR="red"]4.55[/COLOR]
[I]2010 Cavs[/I]: 91.4/22.4 = [COLOR="Red"]4.08[/COLOR]
[I]2009 Cavs[/I]: 88.7/20.3 = [COLOR="Red"]4.37[/COLOR]
[I]2008 Cavs[/I]: 90.2/20.0 = [COLOR="Red"]4.51[/COLOR]
[I]2007 Cavs[/I]: 90.8/20.8 = [COLOR="Red"]4.37[/COLOR]
[I]2006 Cavs[/I]: 89.8/19.0 = [COLOR="Red"]4.72[/COLOR]


[I]1998 Bulls[/I]: 89.0/23.8 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.74[/COLOR]
[I]1997 Bulls[/I]: 90.0/26.1 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.45[/COLOR]
[I]1996 Bulls[/I]: 91.1/24.8 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.67[/COLOR]
[I]1993 Bulls[/I]: 92.5/26.0 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.56[/COLOR]
[I]1992 Bulls[/I]: 94.4/27.8 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.40[/COLOR]
[I]1991 Bulls[/I]: 95.6/27.0 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.54[/COLOR]
[I]1990 Bulls[/I]: 96.7/26.5 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.65[/COLOR]
[I]1989 Bulls[/I]: 97.0/27.0 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.59[/COLOR]
[I]1988 Bulls[/I]: 95.5/26.2 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.65[/COLOR]
[I]1987 Bulls[/I]: 95.8/26.1 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.67[/COLOR]
[I]1985 Bulls[/I]: 99.4/24.3 = [COLOR="Blue"]4.09[/COLOR]


[I]2015 GSW[/I]:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 98.3/27.4 = [COLOR="Magenta"]3.59[/COLOR]
[I]2014 Spurs[/I]:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 95.0/25.2 = [COLOR="Magenta"]3.77[/COLOR]
[I]2011 Mavs[/I]:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 91.3/23.8 = [COLOR="Magenta"]3.84[/COLOR]
[I]2007 Spurs[/I]:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 89.8/22.1 = [COLOR="Magenta"]4.06[/COLOR]

[I]1987 Lakers[/I]: 101.6/29.6 = [COLOR="darkgreen"]3.43[/COLOR]
[I]1986 Celtics[/I]: 102.1/29.1 = [COLOR="darkgreen"]3.47[/COLOR]

[I]Source: basketball-reference.com[/I]


Forwards are normally high-assisted players where teammates assist them a lot.. They aren't low-assisted, point guards like Lebron who score all by themselves.. Lebron's presence as an EXTRA low-assisted player ([I]in addition[/I] to the PG) that teammates rarely get to assist/toss a dime to, reduces the TEAM'S assist frequency and obviously the assists of individual teammates.

The statistical reality is that Lebron's presence as an additional, low-assisted ball-dominator ([I]in addition[/I] to the PG) creates an inequitable distribution of playmaking and prevents the best brand of basketball - equal-opportunity offense - which all the great teams use (90's Bulls, Spurs, Kerr's Warriors)... Since Lebron's ball-dominance prevents his teams from playing the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented opponents are able to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..

Btw, it takes more ability to achieve great stats within an equal-opportunity, winning framework, than the grade school-level, clearout/playground style that ball-dominators like Lebron need to get their numbers.
.

.
[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR][size="4"][COLOR="Navy"][B]NBA.COM'S STATS ON
"MIDRANGE" EFFICIENCY
[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR][size="1"](all shots inside 3-pt line but outside paint)[/size][/B][/COLOR][/size]



[COLOR="White"].......................[/COLOR][U]Midrange Efficiency[/U] .

[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]M Jordan. 1997[/url]:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 48.9%.. 588/1202

[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201566/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]Westbrook 2016[/url]:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 36.9%.. 164/445
[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201566/stats/shooting/]Westbrook 2016[/url]:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 42.4%.. 129/304

[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]D Wade.. 2006[/url]:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 38.4%.. 174/403
[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]D Wade.. 2012[/url]:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 39.5%.. 115/291
[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]D Wade.. 2013[/url]:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 38.9%.. 144/370
[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/]D Wade.. 2016[/url]:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 36.4%.. 143/393

[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201942/stats/shooting/]Derozan. 2016[/url]:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 37.5%.. 183/488

[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202710/stats/shooting/]Butler. 2016[/url]:[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR] 35.9%.. 113/315

[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2003-04&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]Lebron.. 2004[/url]:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 33.2%.. 183/551
[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2004-05&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]Lebron.. 2005[/url]:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 36.0%.. 217/602
[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]Lebron.. 2006[/url]:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 38.4%.. 242/630
[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]Lebron.. 2007[/url]:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 35.1%.. 204/581
[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]Lebron.. 2008[/url]:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 36.4%.. 185/508
[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]Lebron.. 2009[/url]:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 36.8%.. 193/525
[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]Lebron.. 2010[/url]:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 38.8%.. 188/444
[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2010-11&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]Lebron.. 2011[/url]:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 44.6%.. 217/487
[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]Lebron.. 2012[/url]:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 42.3%.. 188/444
[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]Lebron.. 2013[/url]:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 43.2%.. 174/403
[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]Lebron.. 2014[/url]:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 38.5%.. 126/327
[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]Lebron.. 2015[/url]:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 37.0%.. 127/343
[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]Lebron.. 2016[/url]:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 37.1%.. 96/259


[size="4"][I][COLOR="DarkRed"]None of these guys are anywhere NEAR the shooter Jordan was.. :confusedshrug: [/COLOR][/I][/size]

Lebron, Westbrook, Wade, Derozan and Butler all have poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency, yet they're still the top wing scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players easier access to the rim than ever before.

Today's spacing and hands-off defense would benefit MJ's athleticism the same way, except he had [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713011&postcount=43]well-documented, goat midrange efficiency[/url], which would put him in Curry's category as a goat shooter, and give him a similarly massive advantage over Lebron, Westbrook and company..



[COLOR="White"]............................[/COLOR][U][B]5-9 feet[/B][/U]............... [U][B]10-14 feet[/B][/U]............. [U][B]15-19 feet[/B][/U].........[U][B]Overall Midrange[/B][/U]

[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]M Jordan. 1997[/url]:[COLOR="Blue"][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 49.2%.. 62/126...... 51.5%... 240/466..... 49.5%.. 294/594..... 48.9%.. 588/1202[/COLOR]

[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201566/stats/shooting/]Westbrook 2016[/url]:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 46.1%.. 47/102...... 41.9%.... 88/210..... 40.9%.... 72/176..... 42.4%... 129/304

[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/]D Wade.. 2016[/url]:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 40.0%.. 82/205...... 33.7%.... 57/169..... 34.8%.. 116/307..... 37.4%... 174/465

[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201942/stats/shooting/]Derozan. 2016[/url]:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 41.8%.. 71/170...... 42.5%.... 96/226...... 38.9%.. 129/332..... 38.0%... 211/555

[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202710/stats/shooting/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]Butler. 2016[/url]:[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 36.7%... 29/79....... 36.9%.... 41/111...... 37.9%... 78/206...... 36.8%... 138/375

[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]Lebron.. 2016[/url]:[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR]38.1%.. 43/113...... 33.3%..... 33/99...... 42.4%.... 64/151...... 35.1%... 118/357







.