30/8/13 on 55%
He'll get a lot more assists and he'll have a lot more mismatch opportunities to score on in the post and isolation... Rebounds will pretty much be the same more or less...
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30/8/13 on 55%
He'll get a lot more assists and he'll have a lot more mismatch opportunities to score on in the post and isolation... Rebounds will pretty much be the same more or less...
He doesnt have the isolation game to consistently break free from handchecking. Even today, he needs alot of picks to beat his man off the dribble at times, thats gonna be exasperated if his defender can put his hands on his hip or forearm in his back. He's also not going to be a great post presence, not moreso than today. There were way more legit bigs roaming the paint, and he doesnt have the consistent turnaround/fadeaway game with the footwork that MJ had down there. So major production from the post is unlikely, and paths to the basket wont be unobstructed like today with the no hand rules.
He'd probably average the same as he did in 2013, albeit on a a way lower percentage. Im thinking 27 on 48-49% to go with 7 rebounds/assists. His field goal % spiked from all the transition opportunities generated by the Heat, but outside those Heat years he's pretty much a 48-50% scorer.The 80s would have benefitted Lebron moreseo, the pace and run/gun style would benefit his athleticism and skillset to get out in transition. Alot of perimeter players shot 50% in that period, so he likely would be closer to the 53-55% mark in that era.
[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]He doesnt have the isolation game to consistently break free from handchecking. Even today, he needs alot of picks to beat his man off the dribble at times, thats gonna be exasperated if his defender can put his hands on his hip or forearm in his back. He's also not going to be a great post presence, not moreso than today. There were way more legit bigs roaming the paint, and he doesnt have the consistent turnaround/fadeaway game with the footwork that MJ had down there. So major production from the post is unlikely, and paths to the basket wont be unobstructed like today with the no hand rules.He'd probably average the same as he did in 2013, albeit on a a way lower percentage. Im thinking 27 on 48% to go with 7 rebounds/assists.
The 80s would have benefitted Lebron moreseo, the pace and run/gun style would benefit his athleticism and skillset to get out in transition.[/QUOTE]
You should really move to realgm, bro. I dunno why are you are wasting actual intelligent opinions on this elk? But, I also don't understand why I am either. I guess we are both ****ing morons who are gluttonous for punishment.
[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]He doesnt have the isolation game to consistently break free from handchecking. Even today, he needs alot of picks to beat his man off the dribble at times, thats gonna be exasperated if his defender can put his hands on his hip or forearm in his back. He's also not going to be a great post presence, not moreso than today. There were way more legit bigs roaming the paint, and he doesnt have the consistent turnaround/fadeaway game with the footwork that MJ had down there. So major production from the post is unlikely, and paths to the basket wont be unobstructed like today with the no hand rules.He'd probably average the same as he did in 2013, albeit on a a way lower percentage. Im thinking 27 on 48% to go with 7 rebounds/assists.
The 80s would have benefitted Lebron moreseo, the pace and run/gun style would benefit his athleticism and skillset to get out in transition.[/QUOTE]
So much wrong with this post
1993 MJ would STILL be the best player, but LeBron wouldn't be far behind IF AT ALL in the impact department.
I would say ~30/8/7 on 50% shooting.
It's like they think Handchecking is a one way street
Wrong
Lebron would be dropping the shoulder like he does today, except he would be doing it every chance he gets... Funny how you guys complain about him getting away with that, yet don't acknowledge how effective it would be in the 90's...
A 6-9 270 pound dude getting physically impeded by Chris Mullin? Yeah ****ing right son.
[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]So much wrong with this post[/QUOTE]
Great rebuttal.
[QUOTE=Smoke117]You should really move to realgm, bro. I dunno why are you are wasting actual intelligent opinions on this elk? But, I also don't understand why I am either. I guess we are both ****ing morons who are gluttonous for punishment.[/QUOTE]
Yeah tell me about it. Are there less agenda-ridden fanboy trolls over there?
[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]It's like they think Handchecking is a one way street
Wrong
Lebron would be dropping the shoulder like he does today, except he would be doing it every chance he gets... Funny how you guys complain about him getting away with that, yet don't acknowledge how effective it would be in the 90's...
A 6-9 270 pound dude getting physically impeded by Chris Mullin? Yeah ****ing right son.[/QUOTE]
Exactly why the Open Court panel all thought LeBron would be an even BETTER player in the 90's. The guy's defense would be ****ing scary.
[IMG]http://cdn0.sbnation.com/assets/4183099/Screen_Shot_2014-03-24_at_1.44.10_PM.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdn3.sbnation.com/assets/4183163/Screen_Shot_2014-03-24_at_8.20.26_PM.png[/IMG]
Lebron would be a more effective post player in the 90's... Or atleast just as good
1. He would be posting up smaller dudes (He would be blowing by Anthony Mason)
2. He is not a technical/Hakeem esque/footwork post player, he is a physical post player
3. A physical player in a more physical league?
[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]
A 6-9 270 pound dude getting physically impeded by Chris Mullin? Yeah ****ing right son.[/QUOTE]
You cherry picked the right guy to make your point. Back in 93? What about Larry Johnson, Anthony Mason, Barkley, Rodman? What about Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Mourning,Oakley, Malone, Kevin Willis, Kemp, Coleman, Otis Thorpe, the Davis Brothers? You think those guys are going to roll over? Lebron would he succesful in that era, but dont act like the league wasnt way more physical than it is today, or that he's going to be defended by Chris Mullin types every night. Yes, he can be more physical, but you had legit bruiser types in that era that would push back against Lebron's physicality.
Lebron is not going to post up a center you moron. Same way he'd just blow by Larry Johnson or Anthony Mason
[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]Lebron is not going to post up a center you moron. Same way he'd just blow by Larry Johnson or Anthony Mason[/QUOTE]
I didnt say he would, dumbass. You mean like how he was blowing by Boris Diaw. Its not strictly about his positional matchups, its about the much greater paint resistance. You had much bigger, stronger guys protecting the rim that could actually be physical. Would Lebron adapt? Of course, he's 6'8 and 260 or whatever. But 30ppg on 55%? Nope. Two guys put up 30ppg in the 90's, MJ and Malone( Nique came close in 93). I dont see Lebron being the third. But 27-28 on 49%? Sure, those arent scrub numbers. Rebounds? He barely gets 7 in this era and you think he's ecplising that in 93? Nope. Assists? Meh who cares, I suppose if he ball dominates as much as he does today, mind you he doesnt have all the spot up 3point shooters feeding off his drive and kicks, so assist numbers dont necessarily inflate either.
Anyways, I dont know how I got sucked into wasting my time in this thread, but Im out.
25/6/6 on 49%
GOAT perimeter defender.
[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]
He'll get a lot more assists and... Rebounds will pretty much be the same more or less...
[/QUOTE]
Lebron's poor 1-on-1 and midrange efficiency prevents him from being as good in the 80's or 90's, when these were the primary options remaining without the 3-point shooting needed to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile (driving and kicking for 2-pointers isn't worthwhile or preferable over other options).
Without teammates spreading the floor with threes to make drive-and-kick preferable and the force it is today, Lebron would have to score via 1-on-1 and mid-range like everyone else in the 80's - since his efficiency in very poor in these areas, we know for a fact he would be a lesser player back then.
[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]
23/7/5 on 55%
[/QUOTE]
Fixed.. His rebounding would be down because the league was taller back then and far more physical.. And since he wouldn't be running screen-roll/drive-and-kick, he'd be less ball-dominant with less opportunities for assists... He's not used to passing without being ball-dominant like Bird and MJ were.
.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/WPbmRsn.gif[/IMG]
[QUOTE=GIF REACTION][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/WPbmRsn.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]
:oldlol: The 90's never had clear-outs....
Oh yes, this thread was just begging for 3ball. I'll spare my bandwidth from further suffering.
Holy shit imagine Lebron backing down the small ass wing defenders of the 90's
The doubles would be so predictable Lebron would get 10 assists easy
[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/WPbmRsn.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]
Look at Ewing out of "[I]armslength[/I]" but still in the paint!!!!!!.... In today's game, Ewing would have to vacate the paint and go stand above the foul line next to Rik Smits, which would make Ewing FURTHER away to help than he was back then, when he was legally paint-camping..
Also, in your gif - at least there was 1 defender with his feet in the paint and therefore within helping distance... Otoh, there are no help defenders in the paint against Lebron below - they're all on the far weakside, and therefore furthest away to help.
[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif[/IMG]
40/10/10
.
[i]In the picture below, weakside floor-spreaders have drawn defenders away from the strongside.. If Noah doesn't leave #20 Mosgov and flood to the strongside, the strongside will only have 2 defenders on it.. This demonstrates how spacing necessitates flooding - defenders must flood BACK to the strongside (Noah), only because they were originally drawn away by floor-spreaders on the weakside (Mosgov)[/i]
[IMG]http://i61.tinypic.com/2z7mnvm.png[/IMG]
[COLOR="White"]..................[/COLOR][size="3"][B][color="green"]Now which strongside scenario is harder to score on: [/color][/B][/size]
[b][color=red]WITH weakside spacing[/color][/B] - Being against Iggy with all 4 help defenders on weakside and [color=red]furthest[/color] to help on strongside action:
[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif[/img]
[B][COLOR=blue]WITHOUT weakside spacing[/COLOR][/B] - Being against Rodman with all 4 help defenders on strongside and [color=blue]closest[/color] to help on strongside action:
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/kAsDnlC.gif[/img]
[I]Weakside spacing leaves the strongside with fewer defenders (1st GIF), which necessitates the flooding of defenders BACK TO the strongside - this is how strongside floods originated.
Otoh, without weakside spacing (seen in 2nd GIF), defenders just remained on the strongside and closest to help on strongside action.. With defenders staying on strongside, the strongside was [color="red"][I]already flooded[/color] with all 5 defenders[/I] [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11128077&postcount=21][u](5-defender strongsides[/u][/url], which is stark contrast from today's weakside spacing and resulting [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377570][u]1-defender strongsides[/u][/url]).[/I]
[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]He doesnt have the isolation game to consistently break free from handchecking. Even today, he needs alot of picks to beat his man off the dribble at times, thats gonna be exasperated if his defender can put his hands on his hip or forearm in his back. He's also not going to be a great post presence, not moreso than today. There were way more legit bigs roaming the paint, and he doesnt have the consistent turnaround/fadeaway game with the footwork that MJ had down there. So major production from the post is unlikely, and paths to the basket wont be unobstructed like today with the no hand rules.
He'd probably average the same as he did in 2013, albeit on a a way lower percentage. Im thinking 27 on 48-49% to go with 7 rebounds/assists. His field goal % spiked from all the transition opportunities generated by the Heat, but outside those Heat years he's pretty much a 48-50% scorer.The 80s would have benefitted Lebron moreseo, the pace and run/gun style would benefit his athleticism and skillset to get out in transition. Alot of perimeter players shot 50% in that period, so he likely would be closer to the 53-55% mark in that era.[/QUOTE]
I say his FG% would drop by like ~5%. 26/9/8 on 50%-52%. More rebounds and assists due to the higher pace (96.8 in '93 and 92 in '13).
His defense would improve MASSIVELY though. I'd say he'll be a DPOY level defender due to his strength, athleticism, and IQ. The rules allowing physicality would help him immensely.
Also, he'd probably be able to adjust after a season of playing under the new rules.
[QUOTE=AirFederer]25/6/6 on 49%[/QUOTE]
Those number of rebounds are way too low, A man of Brans size would get 7 rebounds minimum.
I say 26/8/8 on 50%
realistically and objectively probably something like 29-9-6, 55%.
[QUOTE=riseagainst]realistically and objectively probably something like 29-9-6, 55%.[/QUOTE]
Only 6 assists?
He'd be getting easily 10 a game
[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]Only 6 assists?
He'd be getting easily 10 a game[/QUOTE]
I was assuming he'd be playing in the triangle. He may get 7 a game, I can't see double digit assists.
it'd be almost guaranteed with how distinct and obvious defense was played then
[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]He doesnt have the isolation game to consistently break free from handchecking. Even today, he needs alot of picks to beat his man off the dribble at times, thats gonna be exasperated if his defender can put his hands on his hip or forearm in his back. He's also not going to be a great post presence, not moreso than today. There were way more legit bigs roaming the paint, and he doesnt have the consistent turnaround/fadeaway game with the footwork that MJ had down there. So major production from the post is unlikely, and paths to the basket wont be unobstructed like today with the no hand rules.
He'd probably average the same as he did in 2013, albeit on a a way lower percentage. Im thinking 27 on 48-49% to go with 7 rebounds/assists. His field goal % spiked from all the transition opportunities generated by the Heat, but outside those Heat years he's pretty much a 48-50% scorer.The 80s would have benefitted Lebron moreseo, the pace and run/gun style would benefit his athleticism and skillset to get out in transition. Alot of perimeter players shot 50% in that period, so he likely would be closer to the 53-55% mark in that era.[/QUOTE]
You are too generous.
I realistically think he would get something like 18-8 on 45%.
[QUOTE=scandisk_]
Those number of rebounds are way too low, A man of Brans size would get 7 rebounds minimum.
I say 26/8/8 on 50%
[/QUOTE]
He'd get less rebounds due to higher physicality.
[I]And without today's 3-point shooting, he wouldn't be able to run screen-roll/drive-and-kick as often - people ignore me when I bring up this point - apparently, they think Lebron would just drive and kick for 2-pointers and it would have the same efficiency as driving and kicking for 3-pointers.
[/I]
But it wouldn't - the lack of 3-point shooting and resulting lower efficiency of drive-and-kicking for 2-pointers is what made post play preferable to screen-roll/drive-and-kick back then.. Without screen-roll promoting the kind of assist-friendly, ball-dominant style he employs today, Lebron would have less assist opportunities.. Unlike Bird and Jordan, Lebron isn't used to getting assists without being ball-dominant..
Not only would he have less assist opportunities without his drive-and-kick, but he would also have to score via post, midrange and isolation like all other scorers back then, and we know for a FACT that his efficiency is piss-poor in all these areas.. So he'd average something like 23/6/5 on 45% shooting - higher physicality and no drive-and-kick means less rebounds, points, assists, and efficiency.. Don't underestimate the impact of not having drive-and-kick.. :confusedshrug:
[QUOTE=aj1987]I say his FG% would drop by like ~5%. 26/9/8 on 50%-52%. More rebounds and assists due to the higher pace (96.8 in '93 and 92 in '13).
[/QUOTE]
At the risk of sounding like I'm parroting 3ball, I think pace and the nature of the era cancel each other to a degree, though it's impossible to quantity how much.
Lebron gets a lot of 'drive and kick to 3point shooters' assists, considering that the 3 wasn't nearly as utilized 22 years ago would logically impact how he gets alot of assists. Being fair, I say he adapts fine assist-wise given that passing ability is kind of exempt from the era argument, and some of those 'drive and kicks' may morph into 'drive and dish' to the larger selection of quality bigmen in the 90's.
Let's put him in Cleveland for example in 1993, let's say Daugherty and Price are there as well. He's got both an interior target as well as Price (and Ehlo) as shooters. But then, Price becomes a spot-up shooter if they employ Lebron-ball( not that this is bad, Price was one hell of a shooter, but that's not maximizing all his strengths). The question is, depending on team makeup, will he still employ the top of the key, ball-dominant style? Or will he play with a traditional PG where he has to adapt to being more off-ball? All these nuances can swing the stats pendulum, if only slightly.
Rebound-wise, alot of trees in the paint back then and I don't think he's even as good as rebounder in today's smaller league as he should be. Grant Hill, for example, was a better rebounder while giving up 50 pounds and playing in that era of dominant bigs.
[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]
But then, Price becomes a spot-up shooter if they employ Lebron-ball[/quote]
You mean, like how Wade and Irving became spot-up shooters alongside LeBron? :rolleyes:. We have 5 years of solid proof that ball-dominant guards have no issue excelling alongside LeBron. Nobody's turning into a "spot-up shooter". "LeBron ball" is only employed when he's playing with sub-par talent or a very unimaginative offensive coach. Prior to the 2015 playoffs(no Love/Kyrie), the last time we saw it was the 2010 NBA season.
[quote]Rebound-wise, alot of trees in the paint back then[/quote]
LeBron always managed to average 7-8 rpg in Cleveland while playing with very strong rebounding front courts. No reason why he wouldn't be able to at least duplicate that in a faster-paced league that employs the 3-ball less, so he's going to be closer to the basket. Everybody averaged more rpg back in the day, so why the heck would LeBron's decrease?
[QUOTE=Indian guy]
1)You mean, like how Wade and Irving became spot-up shooters alongside LeBron? :rolleyes:. We have 5 years of solid proof that ball-dominant guards have no issue excelling alongside LeBron. Nobody's turning into a "spot-up shooter". "LeBron ball" is only employed when he's playing with sub-par talent or a very unimaginative offensive coach. Prior to the 2015 playoffs(no Love/Kyrie), the last time we saw it was the 2010 NBA season.
2)LeBron always managed to average 7-8 rpg in Cleveland while playing with very strong rebounding front courts. No reason why he wouldn't be able to at least duplicate that in a faster-paced league that employs the 3-ball less, so he's going to be closer to the basket. Everybody averaged more rpg back in the day, so why the heck would LeBron's decrease?[/QUOTE]
1) But we really have no idea how Lebron and Price would be utilized back in 1993. For one, Wade's not a good enough shooter to take that role, so naming him is pointless. You have a point about Kyrie, but one circumstance of a star 'shooting' PG not being relegated to a spot-up role doesn't mean Price wouldn't take that role 20 years ago. It doesn't mean he would either, but it can't be stated with any degree of authority one way or the other. This is purely speculation.
2) I made no argument that his rebounds would decrease. I just don't think they'll increase. In fact, several posts before the one you jumped on, I said his stats would probably be the same minus a lower FG%, more in line with his pre Miami days.
[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]Lebron would be dropping the shoulder like he does today, except he would be doing it every chance he gets...[/QUOTE] How is that different than from today?
[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]A 6-9 270 pound dude getting physically impeded by Chris Mullin? Yeah ****ing right son.[/QUOTE]Chris Mullin wasn't exactly the pinnacle of man to man perimeter D, a lot of guys would and did score on him. He'll be defended by more Anthony Masons and Larry Johnsons. Mullin would be an easier night, and Pippen/ MJ would be a tough night. Nance would definitely give Lebron trouble as well.
How much trouble is LeBron giving the league on the perimeter while being able to put his hands on guys? He nearly won DPOY's in a weak era with his hands behind his back, no?
He locked down D-Rose with length and recovery ability. He shut a peak Big Al down in 2013 by himself.
You give this guy the ability to abuse hand-check rules :eek:
[QUOTE=Rocketswin2013]How much trouble is LeBron giving the league on the perimeter while being able to put his hands on guys? He nearly won DPOY's in a weak era with his hands behind his back, no?
He locked down D-Rose with length and recovery ability. He shut a peak Big Al down in 2013 by himself.
You give this guy the ability to abuse hand-check rules :eek:[/QUOTE]
Lebron could be a very good defender in the 90s. In fact had he played in the 90s he would have to be a very good defender, because he will be a much less effective offensive player.
As I say, he'd be close to a 20-10 power forward who played good defense or alternatively a big better Anthony Mason small forward, but there's no way he hits 25ppg in the 90s.
[QUOTE=j3lademaster]
Chris Mullin wasn't exactly the pinnacle of man to man perimeter D, a lot of guys would and did score on him. He'll be defended by more Anthony Masons and Larry Johnsons. Mullin would be an easier night, and Pippen/ MJ would be a tough night. Nance would definitely give Lebron trouble as well.[/QUOTE]
As would Rodman, but choosing Chris Mullin as if he is representative of 90s perimeter defenders wasnt by accident. Its like those who use Craig Ehlo to say MJ was only defended by skinny white guys while ignoring Rodman, Cooper, Dumars, Payton, Moncrief etc etc.
[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw] It doesn't mean he would either, but it can't be stated with any degree of authority one way or the other. This is purely speculation.[/quote]
Dude, you are the one who speculated first and said it with authority - that "LeBron ball" would relegate Price to spot-up shooter. My rebuttal is, in LeBron's 12 year career, he has played with 3 star-level guards - 'Mo Williams, Wade and Irving. 2 of them happened to be excellent shooters. And 2 of them were ball-dominant. Yet, in all 3 cases, not only did they manage to excel, but none of 'em were reduced to "spot up" status. Thus, there's little merit to what you said. And we don't need to speculate on how LeBron/Price would be used 22 years ago. We can just look at LeBron's history with star-guards and conclude that Price would do just fine.