When did Lebron elevate a team of unestablished/young players to a championship?

He can [B][U][I]ONLY[/I][/U][/B] win with established vets because his style of turning teammates into spot-up shooters doesn't develop players or teamwork.

So the Nash/CP3/Lebron skillset is indeed flawed because it's poor for player and team development, which is why it mostly loses to the Spurs and Warriors' organic brand of ball-movement.

This ball movement brand is the tried-and-true best way to maximize a team, but it requires players to incorporate a different skillset.. The star must frequently not touch the ball, while teammates move the ball and establish themselves as threats - only when the team needs a momentum boost or to break a momentary lull/stalemate does the star step in and assert their dominance..

Unfortunately, guys like Nash, CP3, and Lebron can't play this way because they lack an adequate skillset to score or assist quickly in the midst of the ball moving... So they must dominate the ball to produce, which puts a lower ceiling on their teams.. This is why I rank players like Nash, CP3, and Lebron behind guys like MJ, Bird, and Kobe (the top 3 perimeter players of all time)

[QUOTE=3ball]He can [B][U][I]ONLY[/I][/U][/B] win with established vets because his style of turning teammates into spot-up shooters doesn't develop players or teamwork.

So the Nash/CP3/Lebron skillset is indeed flawed because it's poor for player and team development, which is why it mostly loses to the Spurs and Warriors' organic brand of ball-movement.

This ball movement brand is the tried-and-true best way to maximize a team, but it requires players to incorporate a different skillset.. The star must frequently not touch the ball, while teammates move the ball and establish themselves as threats - only when the team needs a momentum boost or to break a momentary lull/stalemate does the star step in and assert their dominance..

Unfortunately, guys like Nash, CP3, and Lebron can't play this way because they lack an adequate skillset to score or assist quickly in the midst of the ball
moving... So they must dominate the ball to produce, which puts a lower ceiling on their teams.. This is why I rank players like Nash, CP3, and Lebron behind guys like MJ, Bird, and Kobe (the top 3 perimeter players of all time)[/QUOTE]

Great post. Curry won with Dray and Klay who were the 11th and 35th picks. Both were young and unestablished.

[QUOTE=Ca$H]Great post. Curry won with Dray and Klay who were the 11th and 35th picks. Both were young and unestablished.[/QUOTE]
Yup, that's why Curry > Harden, Westbrook, CP3, maybe Bron depending how you look at it

i wouldnt include nash in there because he actually elevated everybody...

and they were young amare was a baby when he joined the suns, instantly elevated to all NBA caliber, 30 ppg player in the playoffs.

nash's offenses never sputtered in the playoffs...if anything their defense did, but they just lost close.

When did anyone else elevate a cast like the 07 Cavs to the finals?




oh the 2018 cavs......:oldlol:

Cp3 and Blake didn

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]When did anyone else elevate a cast like the 07 Cavs to the finals?




oh the 2018 cavs......:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
2001 sixers.

[QUOTE=Real14]2001 sixers.[/QUOTE]

03 spurs were worse imo

[QUOTE=Real14]2001 sixers.[/QUOTE]
AI had the best defensive player in the NBA as his sidekick

LeBron had a bunch of garbage cans in 07 & 18

[QUOTE=Ca$H]Great post. Curry won with Dray and Klay who were the 11th and 35th picks. Both were young and unestablished.[/QUOTE]
Klay and Dray have carried Curry all these years, not the other way around.

This his been proven with time. Dray and Klay were always more important to the Warriors success than Curry.

[QUOTE=tpols]

I wouldnt include nash in there because he actually elevated everybody...

and they were young amare was a baby when he joined the suns, instantly elevated to all NBA caliber, 30 ppg player in the playoffs.

nash's offenses never sputtered in the playoffs...[COLOR="black"]if anything their defense did, but they just lost close[/COLOR]

[/QUOTE]
Nash did well but he never elevated an unestablished cast to a championship in his career, similar to Lebron, Harden, Westbrook, and other ball-dominators.. It's unfortunate because they could all win a ring if they teamed up a bunch like Bron did, but they'd similarly have weak Finals records..

Otoh, guys like Duncan, Curry, MJ, Shaq, Kobe, KD, Kawhi, Pierce and Dirk have basically all the rings in the last 30 years

And btw, Nash's team defense sputtered more than the opponent's because it's harder to guard ball movement than a primary ball-handler.. that's why Curry had 70-win juggernauts and Nash had teams equal to Lebron's pre-collude years

[QUOTE=Real14]2001 sixers.[/QUOTE]
little known fact was the 2001 sixers had the dpoy and the 6th man of the year; 3 allstars although one went down 2nd half of the year iirc. So i sorta disagre there. Ai didn't have much help scoring but he had good teammates.

Also I gather Op is also denigrating guys like Magic and Stockton who we pretty similar to guys like Nash/Cp3. Stockton put up the least shots of his own of that bunch but in prime years these guys were all neck and neck in usage.

[QUOTE=3ball]Nash did well but he never elevated an unestablished cast to a championship in his career, similar to Lebron, Harden, Westbrook, and other ball-dominators.. It's unfortunate because they could all win a ring if they teamed up a bunch like Bron did, but they'd similarly have weak Finals records..

Otoh, guys like Duncan, Curry, MJ, Shaq, Kobe, KD, Kawhi, Pierce and Dirk have basically all the rings in the last 30 years

And btw, his defense sputtered more than the opponent's because it's harder to guard ball movement than a primary ball-handler.. that's why Curry had 70-win juggernauts and Nash had teams equal to Lebron's pre-collude years[/QUOTE]
Lists Pierce & Dirk as having "all" the rings when they have one each :oldlol:

Ditto Kawhi & Durant with 2, although they obviously still have time to win more

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]Lists Pierce & Dirk as having "all" the rings when they have one each :oldlol:

Ditto Kawhi & Durant with 2, although they obviously still have time to win more[/QUOTE]
not to mention Kawhi being the 3rd or 4th option for his 1st one.....

[QUOTE=3ball]Nash did well but he never elevated an unestablished cast to a championship in his career, similar to Lebron, Harden, Westbrook, and other ball-dominators.. It's unfortunate because they could all win a ring if they teamed up a bunch like Bron did, but they'd similarly have weak Finals records..

Otoh, guys like Duncan, Curry, MJ, Shaq, Kobe, KD, Kawhi, Pierce and Dirk have basically all the rings in the last 30 years

And btw, his defense sputtered more than the opponent's because it's harder to guard ball movement than a primary ball-handler.. that's why Curry had 70-win juggernauts and Nash had teams equal to Lebron's pre-collude years[/QUOTE]

Wat established cast, don’t just gloss over his point :lol. Amare was super young as tools said and they won 29 games before he joined. Marion was their one established all star. Their defensive problems had more to do with amare having no interior presence. Their kryptonite in the spurs didn’t play a heavy ball movement style anyway, lot of Duncan postups

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]not to mention Kawhi being the 3rd or 4th option for his 1st one.....[/QUOTE]
True that, not to mention of all the players he listed, only Jordan, Shaq & Duncan have more/as many rings as best player as LeBron does

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]Lists Pierce & Dirk as having "all" the rings when they have one each :oldlol:

Ditto Kawhi & Durant with 2, although they obviously still have time to win more[/QUOTE]

I am pretty confident if phx pulled the trigger on the amare and Marion for kg trade, Nash would have a ring right now

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]When did anyone else elevate a cast like the 07 Cavs to the finals?




oh the 2018 cavs......:oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Lebron vs 07' Spurs:


[INDENT][I]Sweep[/I][/INDENT]


^^^^ That's the proper guage for how high lebron elevated his team

Not a weak East that everyone and there mom was winning with weak casts (Dwight, AI, Kidd twice)

And do you realize the bulls were 21-42 without MJ in 86'?.. They made the playoffs with 30 wins and were really more like a 12-seed-caliber.. Yet Jordan's 8 seed played the goat Celtics closer than Lebron's 4 seed and 3-time conference champ played the Warriors in 18'.. So congratulations, lebron elevated the 18' Cavs [U]below[/U] MJ's 86' Bulls.... :applause: .. :rolleyes:

So again, Lebron's record loss in the Finals is the guage for how high lebron elevated his 18' team, not a weak East that everyone and there mom was winning with weak casts before he colluded (Dwight, AI, Kidd twice, before lebron colluded in 11')

16 Cavs

Did Kyrie or Love have any playoff success before Lebron?

Anyone know?

[QUOTE=RealSkipBayless]16 Cavs

Did Kyrie or Love have any playoff success before Lebron?

Anyone know?[/QUOTE]
They were already stars, so lebron didn't have to develop their talent, or the team's teamwork to achieve favorite status (they were preseason favorites to win it all, and right before playoffs)

What happened to retiring, 3ball?

Why are you such a liar?

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]Lists Pierce & Dirk as having "all" the rings when they have one each :oldlol:

Ditto Kawhi & Durant with 2, although they obviously still have time to win more[/QUOTE]
I was saying that non-ball-dominant players have basically all the rings in the last 30 years:

Kawhi, KD, Kobe, MJ, Dirk, Shaq, Duncan, Curry, Pierce


While ball-dominant players have almost none without colluding: Lebron, Wade, and that's it (Chauncey wasn't a ball-dominant player)

[QUOTE=3ball]I was saying that non-ball-dominant players have basically all the rings:

Kawhi, KD, Kobe, MJ, Dirk, Shaq, Duncan, Curry, Pierce


While ball-dominant players have almost none without colluding: Lebron, Wade, and that's it (Chauncey wasn't a ball-dominant player)[/QUOTE]
You have the audacity to list Pierce, Curry & Durant when complaining about colluded titles :oldlol:

Kobe not ball dominant lmfao

New top 15 based on the OP's logic and the notion that dominant wing > dominant big in modern era:


1. MJ
2. Bird
3. Kobe
4. Magic
5. Wilt
6. Kareem
7. Shaq
8. Russell
9. Duncan
10. Kawhi
11. Durant
12. Hakeem
13. Pettit
14. Moses
15. Dirk

[QUOTE=3ball]I was saying that non-ball-dominant players have basically all the rings in the last 30 years:

Kawhi, KD, Kobe, MJ, Dirk, Shaq, Duncan, Curry, Pierce


While ball-dominant players have almost none without colluding: Lebron, Wade, and that's it (Chauncey wasn't a ball-dominant player)[/QUOTE]
LeBron had a lower time of possession than Curry in 2014-2016

So how is Curry considered "non-ball-dominant" but LeBron isn't

[QUOTE=3ball]New top 15 based on the OP's logic and the notion that dominant wing > dominant big in modern era:


1. MJ
2. Bird
3. Kobe
4. Magic
5. Wilt
6. Kareem
7. Shaq
8. Russell
9. Duncan
10. Kawhi
11. Durant
12. Hakeem
13. Pettit
14. Moses
15. Dirk[/QUOTE]
Permaban time.

[QUOTE=3ball]Lebron vs 07' Spurs:


[INDENT][I]Sweep[/I][/INDENT]


^^^^ That's the proper guage for how high lebron elevated his team

Not a weak East that everyone and there mom was winning with weak casts (Dwight, AI, Kidd twice)

And do you realize the bulls were 21-42 without MJ in 86'?.. They made the playoffs with 30 wins and were really more like a 12-seed-caliber.. Yet Jordan's 8 seed played the goat Celtics closer than Lebron's 4 seed and 3-time conference champ played the Warriors in 18'.. So congratulations, lebron elevated the 18' Cavs [U]below[/U] MJ's 86' Bulls.... :applause: .. :rolleyes:

So again, Lebron's record loss in the Finals is the guage for how high lebron elevated his 18' team, not a weak East that everyone and there mom was winning with weak casts before he colluded (Dwight, AI, Kidd twice, before lebron colluded in 11')[/QUOTE]
Boi, taking a team to the finals >>>>>>>>>a 1st round exit. I can't even begin to stress > enough. Mj elevated his team back to the lottery while lebron lifted his team to the point they couldn't get lotto picks. This is easy stuff, no need to twist your brain into a pretzel over.

[QUOTE=RRR3]Permaban time.[/QUOTE]
Nobody should really ever respond to his posts but shit like that has psychological problems written all over it.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]You have the audacity to list Pierce, Curry & Durant when complaining about colluded titles :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Again, non-ball-dominators have nearly all the rings, and most didn't need to collude

Otoh, ball-dominators have almost no non-colluded rings, and only 3 colluded

It's funny because you guys complain about comp when lebron was "compensated" for that by getting extra Finals chances via a weak conference, and his own super-teams .. it was on him to have the best teams of his era, yet 3/9.. so don't complain

[QUOTE=3ball]New top 15 based on the OP's logic and the notion that dominant wing > dominant big in modern era:


1. MJ
2. Bird
3. Kobe
4. Magic
5. Wilt
6. Kareem
7. Shaq
8. Russell
9. Duncan
10. Kawhi
11. Durant
12. Hakeem
13. Pettit
14. Moses
15. Dirk[/QUOTE]
How many times you gonna change your all time ranking list this year :lol

[URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13750799&postcount=32"]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13750799&postcount=32[/URL]

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]Boi, taking a team to the finals >>>>>>>>>a 1st round exit. I can't even begin to stress > enough. Mj elevated his team back to the lottery while lebron lifted his team to the point they couldn't get lotto picks. This is easy stuff, no need to twist your brain into a pretzel over.[/QUOTE]
MJ's 1st round losses happened in his first few seasons, when nearly all lottery picks like Lebron, Durant, and Kyrie REMAIN lottery by missing the playoffs

Also, you've said previously that the 80's Celtics = Spurs or Warriors

So lebron's Finals sweeps and blowouts prove that if he faced that caliber in the first round i.e. 80's Celtics, he would've lost in the first round instead of the Finals; he simply didn't have to face that caliber until the Finals, while MJ faced it in the 1st Round

3ball,


1. Why did you lie about retiring?

2. Why are you constantly changing your GOAT list? And not even minor changes either.

[QUOTE=RRR3]3ball,


1. Why did you lie about retiring?

2. Why are you constantly changing your GOAT list? And not even minor changes either.[/QUOTE]
It was a quick retirement and I bumped Wilt down below the goat perimeter players, but still goat of the bigs

It's always a fluid list as ongoing evolution tells us more about our past

[QUOTE=3ball][B]They were already stars, so lebron didn't have to develop their talent[/B], or the team's teamwork to achieve favorite status (they were preseason favorites to win it all, and right before playoffs)[/QUOTE]
LOL @ not knowing the reg. season and postseason aren't comparable.

[QUOTE=3ball]MJ's 1st round losses happened in his first few seasons, when nearly all lottery picks like Lebron, Durant, and Kyrie REMAIN lottery by missing the playoffs

Also, you've said previously that the 80's Celtics = Spurs or Warriors

So lebron's Finals sweeps and blowouts prove that if he faced that caliber in the first round i.e. 80's Celtics, he would've lost in the first round instead of the Finals; he simply didn't have to face that caliber until the Finals, while MJ faced it in the 1st Round[/QUOTE]
You never seem to think any of these topics through bro. Mj led the bulls to lotto picks Lebron didn't as a matter of fact here's the picks each had after being drafted:

Mj:
11th pick in 85
9th pick in 86
8th AND 10th pick in 87
11th pick in 88
6th pick in 89

LBJ: 10th pick in 04 and never another pick in approaching top 10.

So basically your argument is mortally wounded on 2 fronts here. Mj not only couldn't elevate his teams higher than Lebron did in 07 but he also had much better draft talent added to his team.

Lastly just for shits and giggles if lebron were to have Mjs draft position in place of his own he'd have these guys available for the cavs to draft:

1 of :biedrens, telfair, humphires, al jefferson, jr smith, josh smith....or perhaps they take luke Jackson like they did that year with the 10th pick:facepalm
1 of: bynum, granger
2 of: rudy gay and jj Reddick, sefolosha
1 of: thad young, nick young, belinelli
1 of: gallinari, eric gordon

This might honestly be the best thread in ISH history

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

You never seem to think any of these topics through bro. Mj led the bulls to lotto picks Lebron didn't as a matter of fact here's the picks each had after being drafted:

Mj:
11th pick in 85
9th pick in 86
8th AND 10th pick in 87
11th pick in 88
6th pick in 89

LBJ: 10th pick in 04 and never another pick in approaching top 10.

So basically your argument is mortally wounded on 2 fronts here. Mj not only couldn't elevate his teams higher than Lebron did in 07 but he also had much better draft talent added to his team.

[/Quote]
Lebron beat his conference earlier because it was weak, but he couldn't beat the [U]league[/U] earlier because he's inferior to MJ - the league is the proper barometer and it accounts for a weak conference

MJ dominated the league like lebron dominates the East because his skill allowed the best brand of ball movement basketball that yields the best teams.. So it didn't matter who MJ faced in the Finals - his Finals teams were juggernauts that would never be 3/9 regardless of opponent

Otoh, guys like Lebron/Nash/CP3 can't play the ball movement brand because they lack an adequate skillset to score or assist quickly in the midst of the ball moving... So they must dominate the ball to produce, which puts a lower ceiling on their teams.. This is why I rank players like Nash, CP3, and Lebron behind guys like MJ, Bird, and Kobe (the top 3 perimeter players of all time)

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]When did anyone else elevate a cast like the 07 Cavs to the finals?




oh the 2018 cavs......:oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Title of the thread says "championship" and you start talking about "showing up".

:roll: