Teammate career rankings between Jordan and Lebron -- The Reality

[B]Career Rankings[/B]

[B]PER:[/B]

Anthony Davis....3
Dwayne Wade......21
Kyrie Irving.....33
Kevin Love.......45
Chris Bosh.......62
Scottie Pippen...132
Horace Grant.....185

[B]OBPM:[/B]

Anthony Davis....12
Kyrie Irving.....13
Dwayne Wade......25
Kevin Love.......29
Scottie Pippen...90
Chris Bosh.......102
Horace Grant.....107

[B]
WS/48:[/B]

Anthony Davis....13
Horace Grant.....55
Kevin Love.......57
Kyrie Irving.....68
Dwayne Wade......70
Chris Bosh.......76
Scottie Pippen...129
[B]
Ortg:[/B]

Horace Grant.....4 :biggums:
Anthony Davis....28
Kevin Love.......47
Kyrie Irving.....89
Chris Bosh.......107
Dwayne Wade......231
Scottie Pippen...NR top 250
[B]
Effective Field Goal Percentage:[/B]

Anthony Davis....86
Kyrie Irving.....99
Horace Grant.....206
Kevin Love.......225
Chris Bosh.......227
Scottie Pippen...244
Dwayne Wade......NR top 250
[B]
True Shooting:[/B]

Anthony Davis.....41
Kyrie Irving......84
Chris Bosh........89
Kevin Love........92
Dwayne Wade.......183
Dennis Rodman.....244 :rockon:
Scoottie Pippen...NR top 250 :facepalm
Horace Grant......NR top 250

[B]BPM:[/B]

Anthony Davis.....12
Dwayne Wade.......22
Kyrie Irving......32
Scottie Pippen....35 :applause:
Kevin Love........48
Chris Bosh........134
Horace Grant......176


Notice that all the real stats that are actually measuring something tangible (PER, OBPM, Ortg, WS/48, eFG%, TS%, etc) actually correlate very closely with one another in rankings. They all say that Pippen was maybe a top-100 offensive player all-time. Pippen wasn't even a Chris Bosh level offensive talent. Also, Scottie Pippen's BPM ranking is wildly incongruous because it rewards defensive stars playing on great defensive teams. From BREF about the BPM 2.0 changes:

[QUOTE]
What players were most impacted by the changes?

Including playoffs, only one player saw his career BPM change by 3.0 or more. That'd be the aforementioned Stockton, who was 3.5 under the old system and is now 6.7. He's aided by the changes in the way the assist and rebound terms interact. Further, the old system said "no rebounds = bad defender." [I][B]BPM 2.0 says "elite steals, good defensive teams = good defender."[/B][/I][/QUOTE]


When basketball reference reworked the stat back in 2016, players like John Stockton (another Pippen-like two-way player) saw their career BPM double. And here is the kicker... Even with that bonus bump gifted to him and playing on the best defensive teams of all-time practically his entire career, Pippen wouldn't even be a top-three impact player compared to Lebron's teammates. All-time Pippen is just slightly better than Kevin Love.

In summation, in order for Lebron to be on the level of Jordan, he would need to win six titles and win six Finals MVP's with a Chris Bosh/Kevin Love level player as his second option.

Lebron fans...

[IMG]https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2Fl4Ki2obCyAQS5WhFe%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1[/IMG]

[img]https://i.ibb.co/rGNhsyn/73-F59-D20-F8-E4-406-E-B751-7-D088-E67-AAA3.gif[/img]

no shit the 6 stats you used correlate with each other. most of them are only measuring offense. per is definitely a metric focused on offense. ws is based on ortg and drtg, it's a waste of time to list ortg and ws.

[QUOTE=NBAGOAT;14110886]no shit the 6 stats you used correlate with each other. most of them are only measuring offense. per is definitely a metric focused on offense. ws is based on ortg and drtg, it's a waste of time to list ortg and ws.[/QUOTE]

Translation: Yea, all those stats are legit but they are mostly offensive stats so they don't count, lol.

Is the OP 3ball or Soundwave? :lol

They like to cherry pick advanced stats only when convenient. Just yesterday we saw prime Pippen crushes prime Ewing across the board in advanced stats. That didn't count, doe. Nor does it count that every advanced stat has Pippen near the top for his era.

All this--a daily thread or two to declare "Pippen sucks"--to diminish Pippen and Jordan is still 1-9. He won 6 rangz with a team that was good without him (hell, their offense w/out MJ>their offense w/out Pippen and their alleged fictional offensive ineptness is the thing we hear 24/7 from MJ stains). Sorry, but MJ stains can't erase these facts. Get over it. Maybe someday MJ can get the Hornets out the first round--eventually.

LeBron (long after he played with Wade :oldlol: ) is facing a team with Westbrook, a MVP, as a sidekick. Not exactly John Starks. #Context

The BPM thing is comical. Dishonest MJ fans will deceive--that's all they know to do, but we went over this with OBPM--where again Pippen was elite. MJ stains dismissed that too.

Let's compare OBPM--so no steals in the mix--for Pippen vs. Ewing, a MJ stain favorite and the best player on the only 90's team to consistently give the Bulls comp.

Prime OBPM for Pippen: 3.0
Prime OBPM for Ewing: 2.0

Advanced plus/minus is a great way to suss out a player's impact. Pippen peaked at #2 in that in 95'.

I am sorry MJ quit as MVP instead of trying to win without Pippen or kept opposing trades for Pippen. He clearly didn't feel like he could win without Pippen (not a "challenge" he wanted--a guy who loved challenges). His fans are heartbroken over it to this day.

[QUOTE]Ortg:

Horace Grant.....4
Anthony Davis....28
Kevin Love.......47
Kyrie Irving.....89
Chris Bosh.......107
Dwayne Wade......231
Scottie Pippen..[B].NR top 250[/B][/QUOTE]

:roll:

Pippy poo

Jordan is better than Lebron, but comparing Pippen to Bosh and Love is idiotic. Pippen won more playoff series as a first option without Jordan in the one full year Jordan sat out than Bosh/Love have won without Lebron in their entire career.

Scottie Pippen was a damn good player who was 3rd in MVP voting during the year without Jordan and led them to 55 games. Chris Bosh and Kevin Love aren't even on that same planet. As an overall player, the only years Lebron has played with someone better than Pippen was 2010-2011 Dwade and Anthony Davis this year. Dwade certainly wasn't better than Pippen at the end of his run in Miami and Kyrie was a great scorer, but not the overall player Pippen was. Michael Jordan wouldn't win sh*t if Chris Bosh was his second option.

[QUOTE=goozeman;14110893]Translation: Yea, all those stats are legit but they are mostly offensive stats so they don't count, lol.[/QUOTE]

they do count but your conclusion is lebron had better offensive teammates. you really dont need advanced stats to make that conclusion. also no not all of them are legit, it's kind of well known ws per and ortg arent very good anymore, you're stuck in 2015 if you're using them heavily. if you just want to look at just box score stuff, just use per 75 and ts%.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14110898]Is the OP 3ball or Soundwave? :lol

They like to cherry pick advanced stats only when convenient. Just yesterday we saw prime Pippen crushes prime Ewing. That didn't count, doe.[/QUOTE]

So "cherry picking stats" means posting almost all relevant statistical data for a player's entire career now? I even threw the fake-Pippen/Lebron fans a bone, and dropped your favorite metric BPM in there just to be fair.

LeBron has played with better individual talent. No argument there. Many of these stats however don't take into account defense. And we know that Pippen was the [U]best[/U] wing defender of his era. Another poster, it was either Roundball or Kuniva, posted RAPM numbers for Pippen from 1996-1998. He finished around Top 5 during that span. And in the playoffs even better. When LeBron won his championships, his second best player [U]never[/U] had that kind of impact.

[QUOTE=NBAGOAT;14110908]they do count but your conclusion is lebron had better offensive teammates. you really dont need advanced stats to make that conclusion. also no not all of them are legit, it's kind of well known ws per and ortg arent very good anymore, you're stuck in 2015 if you're using them heavily. if you just want to look at just box score stuff, just use per 75 and ts%.[/QUOTE]

ORTG & winshares don't adjust for teammates or lineups like the advanced plus minus stats do. Pretty big flaw.

[QUOTE=NBAGOAT;14110908]they do count but your conclusion is lebron had better offensive teammates. [/QUOTE]

Was it Miami or Chicago who was top 10 in offense without MJ/LeBron? :confusedshrug: Miami wasn't even top 20 when LeBron left. #TheInconvenientTruth

As to defense, well, Chicago was #2 w/out MJ. Miami? Cleveland?

This is why MJ stains have to repeat the same BS on a loop: to create an alternate reality. Chicago was a competent offense and elite defense w/out MJ. Miami? Cleveland? Not so much...but the guy whose team was #21 on offense and #21 on defense had a better team than the other guy.

#10 on offense. #2 on defense. Cold, hard facts. We can resume the Jordan stain fun house mirror of deception, though, for the rest of the thread--where #10 on O/#2 on D never happened.

Jordan had more help than LeBron relative to the era where guys could be the best player on a contender but would be the #3 option today on a contender (e.g., Klay=Miller) because teams are more stacked (90's and 00's were outliers). Their teams' performance without them speak for themselves. We are always in a twilight zone of speculation when we saw those teams without them. They weren't even close.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14110921]Let's compare OBPM--so no steals in the mix--for Pippen vs. Ewing, a MJ stain favorite and the best player on the only 90's team to consistently give the Bulls comp.

Prime OBPM for Pippen: 3.0
Prime OBPM for Ewing: 2.0[/QUOTE]

Why do Jordan fans ignore this? Could it be because Ewing was on the Knicks who were Chicago's best comp? Nah! Probably just a coincidence man!

[QUOTE=insidious301;14110925]Why do Jordan fans ignore this? Could it be because Ewing was on the Knicks who were Chicago's best comp? Nah! Probably just a coincidence man![/QUOTE]

They know all this. They aren't here to discuss. They do here what they do all over the internet: deceive and destroy MJ's teammates to make it look like MJ won 6 rangz by himself and to mute the argument that MJ was on a milk carton for team success before he had a strong team around him (that LeBron keeps succeeding wherever he goes, whoever the coach, whoever his teammates makes them even more insecure). They have an obvious answer to why MJ did nothing: his team sucked (27 win pace w/out him in 86'; in 94' it was 55 and 63 when Pippen/Grant both played--kind of a big change, no? :lol ) but the logical response is the team became good when they did win. They can't abide that so here we are each day.

The sad thing is they are having some success. They set the terms of the debate because they flood the internet day in, day out with their BS--unrestrained by shame or any connection to reality. The Bulls had a top 10 offense without Jordan. Yet we hear over and over and over the team was inept offensively without the Lord and Savior Michael Jeffrey Jordan. We hear people who were MVP candidates were Iggy and hear people who were never even close to MVP candidates were Curry from the Jordan stan funhouse mirrors.

[QUOTE=tpols;14110900]:roll:

Pippy poo[/QUOTE]
Are you five years old?

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14110928]They know all this. They aren't here to discuss. They do here what they do all over the internet: deceive and destroy MJ's teammates.

The sad thing is they are having some success. They set the terms of the debate because they flood the internet day in, day out with their BS--unrestrained by shame or any connection to reality. The Bulls had a top 10 offense without Jordan. Yet we hear over and over and over the team was inept offensively without the Lord and Savior Michael Jeffrey Jordan. We hear people who were MVP candidates were Iggy and hear people who were never even close to MVP candidates were Curry from the Jordan stan funhouse mirrors.[/QUOTE]

I couldn't agree more. What is the obsession with w/s per 48 btw? I have seen that 3ball poster use it frequently. And now the OP. Do they not know Prime Pippen>Ewing in winshares and w/s per 48? Pippen also had a better ORTG, another one of their favorite stats. ORTG might be the worst because of the similarities it has to raw plus minus. Maybe they do know all of this like you are saying, and are just here to create their own reality. Whatever the case being it is cult-like.

Wow! Even LeBron's teammates are better than Ordan's.
:bowdown: GOAT

[QUOTE=goozeman;14110880][B]Career Rankings[/B]

[B]PER:[/B]

Anthony Davis....3
Dwayne Wade......21
Kyrie Irving.....33
Kevin Love.......45
Chris Bosh.......62
Scottie Pippen...132
Horace Grant.....185

[B]OBPM:[/B]

Anthony Davis....12
Kyrie Irving.....13
Dwayne Wade......25
Kevin Love.......29
Scottie Pippen...90
Chris Bosh.......102
Horace Grant.....107

[B]
WS/48:[/B]

Anthony Davis....13
Horace Grant.....55
Kevin Love.......57
Kyrie Irving.....68
Dwayne Wade......70
Chris Bosh.......76
Scottie Pippen...129
[B]
Ortg:[/B]

Horace Grant.....4 :biggums:
Anthony Davis....28
Kevin Love.......47
Kyrie Irving.....89
Chris Bosh.......107
Dwayne Wade......231
Scottie Pippen...NR top 250
[B]
Effective Field Goal Percentage:[/B]

Anthony Davis....86
Kyrie Irving.....99
Horace Grant.....206
Kevin Love.......225
Chris Bosh.......227
Scottie Pippen...244
Dwayne Wade......NR top 250
[B]
True Shooting:[/B]

Anthony Davis.....41
Kyrie Irving......84
Chris Bosh........89
Kevin Love........92
Dwayne Wade.......183
Dennis Rodman.....244 :rockon:
Scoottie Pippen...NR top 250 :facepalm
Horace Grant......NR top 250

[B]BPM:[/B]

Anthony Davis.....12
Dwayne Wade.......22
Kyrie Irving......32
Scottie Pippen....35 :applause:
Kevin Love........48
Chris Bosh........134
Horace Grant......176


Notice that all the real stats that are actually measuring something tangible (PER, OBPM, Ortg, WS/48, eFG%, TS%, etc) actually correlate very closely with one another in rankings. They all say that Pippen was maybe a top-100 offensive player all-time. Pippen wasn't even a Chris Bosh level offensive talent. Also, Scottie Pippen's BPM ranking is wildly incongruous because it rewards defensive stars playing on great defensive teams. From BREF about the BPM 2.0 changes:




When basketball reference reworked the stat back in 2016, players like John Stockton (another Pippen-like two-way player) saw their career BPM double. And here is the kicker... Even with that bonus bump gifted to him and playing on the best defensive teams of all-time practically his entire career, Pippen wouldn't even be a top-three impact player compared to Lebron's teammates. All-time Pippen is just slightly better than Kevin Love.

In summation, in order for Lebron to be on the level of Jordan, he would need to win six titles and win six Finals MVP's with a Chris Bosh/Kevin Love level player as his second option.

Lebron fans...

[IMG]https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2Fl4Ki2obCyAQS5WhFe%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1[/IMG][/QUOTE]

What more needs to be said

I might retire because of this post

Look how much more offensive talent lebron played with, yet he never had #1 offenses.. leDumb ball

[QUOTE=FKAri;14110940]Wow! Even LeBron's teammates are better than Ordan's.
:bowdown: GOAT[/QUOTE]

Think about this:

LeBron stans: "LeBron makes his teammates better. Look at how good Davis is now!"
Jordan stans: "Jordan's teammates sucked. They sucked before him, they sucked with him, they sucked after him."

It is an odd argument for Mike: so he can't make anyone around him better like his chief rival LeBron does (as argued by his fans)? Maybe that explains the lack of success when he didn't have a strong team around him.

I remember Kobe stans, when he was the big threat to MJ, didn't go around dissing Gasol and co. en masse. Some did, but not all. I remember arguing for much of the 2010 season with Kobe stans who swore to me that Bynum>Amare. :lol

Can anyone imagine MJ fans arguing for Grant or Kukoc, who are the rough analogues to what Bynum was on the Lakers, as being better than a guy like Kemp (loose comp for Amare, although Kemp's ceiling was not as high as Amare's)?

[QUOTE=Insidious]I couldn't agree more. What is the obsession with w/s per 48 btw? I have seen that 3ball poster use it frequently. And now the OP. [/QUOTE]

OP may be 1-9ball. He is echoing him a lot but I have seen that account echo "LostCause" too, who some thought was an alt of Soundwave. For all the flack 1-9ball gets (deservedly so), it is hard to tell who is who because 90% of MJ stans here say the same basic stuff.

WS/48 is a tool used to diminish Pippen because Kukoc was ahead of him in WS/48 a few times and I think Grant once. I think it was Kuniva who ripped 1-9ball badly over that by explaining you can't use WS/48 to compare a bench player to a starter. They keep running into trouble with their TP.

Kukoc WS/48:

1994-95 NBA .185 (12th)
1995-96 NBA .231 (6th)
1996-97 NBA .204 (8th)

Grant WS/48:

1990-91 NBA .188 (13th)
1991-92 NBA .237 (3rd)
1993-94 NBA .188 (11th)
1994-95 NBA .169 (20th)

See the problem? WS/48 tells you Grant was a top 3 player and Kukoc was right outside the top 5 in 6th.

As to Pippen, not exactly a slouch in WS/48 but they cherry pick. Here it is for Pippen:

1990-91 NBA .179 (15th)
1991-92 NBA .192 (12th)
1993-94 NBA .194 (9th)
1994-95 NBA .188 (10th)
1995-96 NBA .209 (9th)
1996-97 NBA .203 (9th)
1997-98 NBA .193 (8th)

So he was top 10 five years in a row--and he was playing heavy minutes, which impacts your "per minute" production.

So their favorite WS/48 stat says: Grant was top 3 at his peak, Kukoc 6th at his peak and top 10 multiple times, Pippen was perennially top 10 for almost all his prime. What will their response be? You know the deal: tap dancing away from WS/48--until the next thread when they pull the same BS until someone calls them out.

oRTG is geared towards low volume dunkers or sharpshooters. Just look at who is at the top of oRTG this year. Hence why a guy like Grant is so high or a guy like Kerr could rank 3rd (w/out MJ in 94').

They don't try to understand stats, how they are calculated. Just cherry pick.

Whenever the plus/minus numbers are posted they fail to generate a response because Pippen crushes their darlings like Ewing, Miller in that.

[QUOTE=Insidious]Maybe they do know all of this like you are saying, and are just here to create their own reality. Whatever the case being it is cult-like.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, they are here to construct an alternate reality and they have some success with it. It is now accepted the Bulls had weak offensive teammates and Pippen himself was a weak offensive player. That the Bulls were top 10 in offense w/out MJ in 95' (8th in 86'--probably more like 6th in the non-MJ games BTW) or 5th of the 16 teams in playoff offense in 94' is ignored and erased.

It is a shame. Jordan took a top 10 offense and made it GOAT level--but that isn't enough for MJ stans. They have to exaggerate.

The irony? When Pippen was out for half a year, the Bulls were #13 in offense in 98'. :lol The Bulls proved they could have a top 10 offense with Pippen, w/out Jordan--but not the other way around. An absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence but it is an ironic and amusing fact, given their narrative...

Do Pippen, Kukoc, BJ, Grant, et al. get the 5-6 PPG boost in today's NBA that MJ stans were arguing for in the Miller thread? Let me guess: nope. :lol We have seen this raised with Pippen and Kukoc. The MJ stan response is their stats would be equal--or even lower (since Pippen would be Iggy and if Pippen is Iggy, Kukoc is probably a 9th man or something, right?)--in today's NBA.

Suddenly 90's stats can be compared straight up to today's stats.
They have no actual beliefs whatsoever, just careening from topic to topic and winging it based on a momentary agenda...if they had actual beliefs, you would have to say the stats in the OP would be boosted for these players with the extra PPG and associated extra efficiency and extra APG they would have in today's NBA.

WS/48 is a stat that is pegged to the team's number of wins, so it's the perfect stat to compare teammates, and less effective comparing players on different teams that have different wins

And lol at roundball.. this thread destroys him.. Pippen sucked... Not a top 100 offensive player

[QUOTE=3ball;14110984]WS/48 is a stat that is pegged to the team's number of wins, so it's the perfect stat to compare teammates, and less effective comparing players on different teams that have different wins

And lol at roundball.. this thread destroys him.. Pippen sucked... Not a top 100 offensive player[/QUOTE]

Alright you just went against goozemans argument. If you can’t compare different players on different teams you cant compare Jordan’s teammates to lebrons teammates using ws/48..,

Again if your point is Jordan mattered more than pippen, that’s basic knowledge but the same for lebron vs wade or Kyrie outside 2011

[QUOTE=NBAGOAT;14110989]Alright you just went against goozemans argument. [B] If you can’t compare different players on different teams you cant compare Jordan’s teammates to lebrons teammates using ws/48..,[/B]

Again if your point is Jordan mattered more than pippen, that’s basic knowledge but the same for lebron vs wade or Kyrie outside 2011[/QUOTE]

Which either negates the OP or makes 3ball retract his cosign. Haha embarrassing. Logic says that you read up and understand the numbers [U]before[/U] applying them. Unfortunately common sense is lost on these people. Roundball had them pegged from the getgo.

[QUOTE=NBAGOAT;14110989]Alright you just went against goozemans argument. If you can’t compare different players on different teams you cant compare Jordan’s teammates to lebrons teammates using ws/48..,[/QUOTE]

This is what I mean. These guys are all over the map careening from TP to TP based on the agenda at a given moment--even if they will say the opposite an hour later or the next day with another agenda in another context (e.g., saying 90's players would score 5-6 PPG more easily today--but not applying that to MJ's teammates).

They don't want to use any form of data, other than cherry picked specific data. WS are tied to wins, but that means we can't compare WS for the Bulls to anyone's because they had no comparable team in the 90's. Ironically, because the Bulls were the super team MJ stans like him swear they weren't, their argument is we can't use WS as a comp.

I agree. WS isn't a good stat--but I used it simply because MJ stans like to bring it up.

We can go all day, pick the stat. We know Pippen over and over again ranks at near the top. Here are some more in easy to grasp graphics for 1-9ball and his minions:

[IMG]https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Ewing-player-card.png[/IMG]

[IMG]https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Pippen-GOAT-card.png[/IMG]

Not stat is the be all end all but when every advanced stat, advanced plus/minus, etc. all tell us the same thing that should mean something to people who throw around stats day in, day out.

[QUOTE=3ball;14110963]What more needs to be said

I might retire because of this post

Look how much more offensive talent lebron played with, yet he never had #1 offenses.. leDumb ball[/QUOTE]

Thanks, man. That's a honor coming from the 3ball, the Jordan-stan legend. Keep posting because it is honestly amusing watching you destroy them constantly. It's funny that they legit think they are winning these arguments no matter how many ways we beat them over the head with the same numbers showing that Pippen was a good player who had a couple of solid seasons as the guy, but he nothing special in the big scheme of things compared to a long list of superior players all-time. Even as a sidekick he was nothing special and many players have won championships with far superior second options. Hell, you could argue some teams won championships with third options better than Pippen (Lakers with Worthy, for example). Fake Pippen-stans always respond the same way, and if you look closely enough off in the distancea you can see the goalposts moving to fit the ever-changing Pippen narrative.

Demar DeJordan got carried by MVPippen, Stern and refs, expansion era, shitty opposition at the SG position and overrated 90s defense

OP - Which of LeBron's teammates were better than Prime Ewing?

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14110981]Do Pippen, Kukoc, BJ, Grant, et al. get the 5-6 PPG boost in today's NBA that MJ stans were arguing for in the Miller thread? [/QUOTE]

MJ stans still dodging their shameless hypocrisy. :lol

[QUOTE=insidious301;14111193]OP - Which of LeBron's teammates were better than Prime Ewing?[/QUOTE]

Good line of questioning.

Also, use the same logic in the OP to compare the players on MJ's opponents versus those on LeBron's.

Warriors: Durant, Curry, Klay, Green, Iggy
Thunder: Durant, Westbrook, Harden
Celtics: Garnett, Pierce, Allen, Rondo
Bulls II: Rose, Gasol, Butler, Noah
Bulls I: Rose, Noah, Deng, Boozer, Korver
Rockets: Harden, Westbrook
Spurs: Duncan, Parker, Kawhi, Manu

Go on down the line. Of course, we know OP won't do that because teams are more stacked today and if you compared rosters from then to today teams with Starks as their second best player or Miller (90's version of Klay) as their best player wouldn't stack up to teams with Westbrook, Pierce, Parker, Curry, Klay, etc. as second options. Look at those teams listed above. What option would Starks be? He would be 4th or 5th on some of these teams. Different eras.

The legit comparison is teams relative to their eras--but we know LeBron's teams sucked without LeBron (unlike MJ's) so we won't see that either from MJ stains.

The biggest comp we hear about player wise in the 90's usually are Malone, Barkley. These guys were forwards. All-NBA voters thought Pippen was better than them in multiple years with both players in their primes. So if Pippen sucked, what does that mean Malone, Barkley, and others like Ewing (never higher than 4th in MVP) and Miller (never higher than 13th, same as Rik Smits that year in MVP), etc.?

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14111215]MJ stans still dodging their shameless hypocrisy. :lol



Good line of questioning.

Also, use the same logic in the OP to compare the players on MJ's opponents versus those on LeBron's.

Warriors: Durant, Curry, Klay, Green, Iggy
Thunder: Durant, Westbrook, Harden
Celtics: Garnett, Pierce, Allen, Rondo
Bulls II: Rose, Gasol, Butler, Noah
Bulls I: Rose, Noah, Deng, Boozer, Korver
Rockets: Harden, Westbrook
Spurs: Duncan, Parker, Kawhi, Manu

Go on down the line. Of course, we know OP won't do that because teams are more stacked today and if you compared rosters from then to today teams with Starks as their second best player or Miller (90's version of Klay) as their best player wouldn't stack up to teams with Westbrook, Pierce, Parker, Curry, Klay, etc. as second options. Look at those teams listed above. What option would Starks be? He would be 4th or 5th on some of these teams. Different eras.

The legit comparison is teams relative to their eras--but we know LeBron's teams sucked without LeBron (unlike MJ's) so we won't see that either from MJ stains.

The biggest comp we hear about player wise in the 90's usually are Malone, Barkley. These guys were forwards. All-NBA voters thought Pippen was better than them in multiple years with both players in their primes. So if Pippen sucked, what does that mean Malone, Barkley, and others like Ewing (never higher than 4th in MVP) and Miller (never higher than 13th, same as Rik Smits that year in MVP), etc.?[/QUOTE]

I wonder if the "[U]gooseman[/U]" will answer my question directly. Lets see how many players were better than the guy who led Jordan's [U]best[/U] comp. I doubt we'll get an answer, because we all know what it entails, and what that'll do to his argument. But I will give him benefit of the doubt.

[QUOTE=Insidious]I wonder if the "gooseman" will answer my question directly. Lets see how many players were better than the guy who led Jordan's best comp. I doubt we'll get an answer, because we all know what it entails, and what that'll do to his argument. But I will give him benefit of the doubt.[/QUOTE]

If that is 1-9ball, he has Ewing 22nd all-time. Not sure where he has Wade. He also has Brandon Ingram as a top 10-12 all-time scorer. As to tpols, he has Ewing>LeBron. :oldlol: tpols isn't "gooseman" but is part of the same ilk. Every MJ stan raves about how great Ewing was.

[QUOTE=tpols]If these clowns dont think he could tack on another 4-5 ppg vs way inferior teams of today with softened rules and amped up spacing what do you think you could possibly say to convince them otherwise?[/QUOTE]

Using that logic...

Pippen 27 PPG
Kukoc 24 PPG
BJ 20 PPG
Grant 20 PPG
Woolridge 30 PPG
Oakley 20 PPG
Cartwright 27 PPG

What do the numbers in the OP adjust to if you give every MJ teammate 5 PPG boosts from their scoring peak? These are just the guys who get to 20+ so it doesn't include guys who move into the high teens with an extra 5 PPG.

Low IQ poster alert :lol

Imagine comparing AD's entire career #s when he hasnt even played 1 full season together lol

Imagine forgetting about the Playoffs

Imagine not comparing LBJ and MJ's playoff career #s. LBJ fam obviously had more HALP despite being less talented than Pippen.

Imagine forgetting all of MJ's rings are 90s trash

The ultimate teammate comparison: 55-27 versus 37-45 or 19-63. :lol

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14111262]If that is 1-9ball, he has Ewing 22nd all-time. Not sure where he has Wade. He also has Brandon Ingram as a top 10-12 all-time scorer. As to tpols, he has Ewing>LeBron. :oldlol: tpols isn't "gooseman" but is part of the same ilk. Every MJ stan raves about how great Ewing was.[/quote]

So what you're saying is "[U]tpol[/U]" has Pippen>Ewing then. That is the conclusion we get from the hard data posted in 1) this thread and 2) the one I enlightened "[U]3ball[/U]" in. There is no other logical choice.


[quote]Using that logic...

Pippen 27 PPG
Kukoc 24 PPG
BJ 20 PPG
Grant 20 PPG
Woolridge 30 PPG
Oakley 20 PPG
Cartwright 27 PPG

What do the numbers in the OP adjust to if you give every MJ teammate 5 PPG boosts from their scoring peak? These are just the guys who get to 20+ so it doesn't include guys who move into the high teens with an extra 5 PPG.[/QUOTE]

That is correct, Roundball. If everyone is getting boosts then why aren't Jordan's teammates? The narratives aren't stacking up as they should!

Wait, I thought today's league is soft and so easy to get stats but here you are using the higher stats to say that they are better then older players?????

:roll:

You can't make it up!!!!!!

:roll:

Well its a different era.

Teams are all loaded now.

Bron isn‘t out here facing teams with Starks, Majerle, Smits, etc as sidekick

[QUOTE=FireDavidKahn;14111280]Wait, I thought today's league is soft and so easy to get stats but here you are using the higher stats to say that they are better then older players?????

:roll:

You can't make it up!!!!!!

:roll:[/QUOTE]

exacly :oldlol:

now do Jordans career competition all-time

where does jeff hornacek and craig ehlo rank in the midst

[QUOTE=FireDavidKahn;14111280]Wait, I thought today's league is soft and so easy to get stats but here you are using the higher stats to say that they are better then older players?????

:roll:

You can't make it up!!!!!!

:roll:[/QUOTE]

Just as you said, Kahn, how do you compare stats that [U]don't adjust[/U] for possessions across era? And still want to claim numbers [U]now[/U] are easier to get? No consistency from the cult-like posters.

[QUOTE=LAmbruh;14111283]exacly :oldlol:

now do Jordans career competition all-time

[B]where does jeff hornacek and craig ehlo rank in the midst[/B][/QUOTE]

:lol :roll: :roll:
G league 6th man

[QUOTE=FireDavidKahn;14111280]Wait, I thought today's league is soft and so easy to get stats but here you are using the higher stats to say that they are better then older players?????

:roll:

You can't make it up!!!!!!

:roll:[/QUOTE]

+1

We need to add 25% to every 90s trash can kid to make up for lack of skillset

[QUOTE=Insidious]So what you're saying is "tpol" has Pippen>Ewing then. That is the conclusion we get from the hard data posted in 1) this thread and 2) the one I enlightened "3ball" in. There is no other logical choice.[/QUOTE]

Yup, but they want it both ways: Ewing was awesome (because he played against MJ) and Pippen sucks (because he played with MJ). tpols compares Pippen to guys like Iggy and Michael Cooper. No beliefs, just agendas. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Insidious]That is correct, Roundball. If everyone is getting boosts then why aren't Jordan's teammates?[/QUOTE]

Good question. They go on and on about how much tougher the 90's were yet MJ's teammates would receive [I]no[/I] benefit from being in what they say is a much easier era?

[QUOTE=FireDavidKahn;14111280]Wait, I thought today's league is soft and so easy to get stats but here you are using the higher stats to say that they are better then older players?????

:roll:

You can't make it up!!!!!!

:roll:[/QUOTE]

[IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/BLjbqh9Yg2LqzBIbf6/giphy.gif[/IMG]

Nope--and they flip flop on this thread to thread--sometimes on an hourly basis. Shameless, isn't it?

its not about impact or else giannis > jordan or wilt > jordan. Lebron might even be more impactful than jordan but well choose kobe over him when it comes to building a team. Well choose kawhi over him coz they possess the skill that matters the most. And pippen is the same, hes a great 2nd option but we might even have a higher chance of winning with miller than him.