Let's review Pippen's 3rd biggest choke of career - the foul on Hubert Davis (gif)

[B].
Pippen hacks the shit out of Hubert:


[img]https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2021/W44XtX.gif[/img]



Here's what Pippen did right BEFORE the dumb foul on Hubert Davis - he passes up a huge clearout and gives it to BJ for a rushed shot:


[img]https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2021/_p33FZ.gif[/img]



Phil was pissed at Pippen after that - he already knew that Pippen couldn't be trusted when it mattered and that he should've gone with Kukoc again:


[IMG]https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2021/8uUPI_.gif[/IMG]


So Pippen choked many times - the "sit out" game, the "dumb foul" game, and Game 7, plus a lot of other little chokes in between

The problem is that he was overrated by new fans for the last couple decades, so it's gone to his head now - he called Phil racist for going with Kukoc - that's pretty dumb because Phil had no problem putting the ball in MJ's hands[/B]

No Pip, I quit

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;14374058]No Pip, I quit[/QUOTE]


The first gif proves that ESPN literally lies about what happened

Just the other day, Stephen A. said the 94' Bulls would've won the title if not for the bad call on the Hubert play

that's 100% false and revisionist history - Pippen committed the dumb foul and had many other chokes in that series..... It was probably the worst #1 option performance ever in that series - there's no way he beats Reggie in the ECF, let alone Hakeem.. The Bulls would've been down 0-3 if Kukoc missed that shot, but his miracle shot made the series really weird and the Bulls made it a series... Apparently it was Cartwright that led the Bulls in the locker room after Pippen's historic choke where he sat out.

The media simply says "pippen has 6 rings so he's better than almost anyone in history (top 30)"... But 2nd options don't get credit for rings like they're a 1st option.. Klay doesn't get ranked over Harden due to rings, so why should Pippen?..

Everyone in history needed an equal-scoring partner in the playoffs for at least half of their rings - only Jordan carried his team for every playoff run and series, so Pippen is literally the last person that should be complaining - no one in history was more of a secondary player than him.

Why did MJ threaten Krause with:

No Pip, no Phil, I quit

Not even Nicole Simpson & Ron Goldman’s families are as fixated on 1994 as OP is

No Pip no chip

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;14374071]Why did MJ threaten Krause with:

No Pip, no Phil, I quit[/QUOTE]


It takes time to build an organic champion, and Jordan was 35 years old with no time... And the thought of colluding (not competing) didn't occur to him like it does for betas and non-competitors like Lebron

But Jordan knew how to adjust his game to fit with teammates and build championship chemistry (organic champion), so he could've done it anywhere if given the time.

Ultimately, Lebron and KD only learned to team-hop - they never learned to WIN (organic) like MJ did, or like Giannis is doing now..

Learning to win (organic) requires adjusting one's game to fit with teammates and to build an effective system/brand of ball.. Guys like Jordan did it, and Giannis is doing it now by eliminating threes, while focusing on inside play and screen-setting..

Giannis made these adjustments after KD went off in Game 5, and the Bucks never looked back.. [U][I]This knowledge is transferrable to other teams so he can fit with teammates and build organic champions anywhere[/I][/U] - Giannis is learning to win right before our eyes and if he continues to build championship chemistry and brand, he could beat the Suns - he will already be the best talent and the best player in the Finals.

[QUOTE=Vino24;14374073]No Pip no chip[/QUOTE]

That wasnt a foul. Only called to SAVE MJ's legacy.. Pete Myers took over for MJ and the BULLS would have won a title.

[QUOTE=NBASTATMAN;14374076]That wasnt a foul. [/QUOTE]


you're right - it was a HACK:


[img]https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2021/W44XtX.gif[/img]


damn near a flagrant, smh

Toni Kukoc shot was the "Ray Allen" moment they needed to flip momentum. People underestimate the emotional turmoil that's inflicted on a team that has victory snatched by the jaws of defeat. It totally kills momentum.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;14374058]No Pip, I quit[/QUOTE]

1-9?

No Pippen?




No chip’n

No Jackson?

I'm relaxin

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;14374071]Why did MJ threaten Krause with:

No Pip, no Phil, I quit[/QUOTE]


MJ preferred Phil to the ball-buster approach that a lot of coaches used back then, and he didn't want to build another system from scratch, but I promise that if Krause delivered Kemp (he tried), Jordan would've been 100% okay with it, or any number of other guys.

Jordan knew that Pippen struggled all the time, but he was okay with it because he could still win with it - it was a challenge and that's what MJ liked - it was an adventure and a challenge with a softy like Pippen... He probably would've retired several times out of boredom if he actually got a real player in 1987 instead of Pippen's 8 ppg

[QUOTE=3ba11;14374075]It takes time to build an organic champion, and Jordan was 35 years old with no time... And the thought of colluding (not competing) didn't occur to him like it does for betas and non-competitors like Lebron

But Jordan knew how to adjust his game to fit with teammates and build championship chemistry (organic champion), so he could've done it anywhere if given the time.

Ultimately, Lebron and KD only learned to team-hop - they never learned to WIN (organic) like MJ did, or like Giannis is doing now..

Learning to win (organic) requires adjusting one's game to fit with teammates and to build an effective system/brand of ball.. Guys like Jordan did it, and Giannis is doing it now by eliminating threes, while focusing on inside play and screen-setting..

Giannis made these adjustments after KD went off in Game 5, and the Bucks never looked back.. [U][I]This knowledge is transferrable to other teams so he can fit with teammates and build organic champions anywhere[/I][/U] - Giannis is learning to win right before our eyes and if he continues to build championship chemistry and brand, he could beat the Suns - he will already be the best talent and the best player in the Finals.[/QUOTE]
That’s a good point and Bill Russell himself would agree with you. Russell states in his book that at one point he(Russell) could handle playmaking duties as well if not better. But he gave the job to Cousy because it is Cousy’s strength so if he can focus efforts elsewhere while allowing teammates to shine at their strengths that would optimize TEAM production.

[QUOTE=Vino24;14374086]No Pippen?




No chip’n[/QUOTE]

This

That's a flagrant foul in the modern NBA.

.
[B]Pippen was making dumb fouls to lose games [U]all the time[/U]:[/b]


* Pippen lost Game 3 of the 91' Finals by fouling out against Vlade on the last possession, until MJ hits the tying shot and dominates the OT without Pippen:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDn58T5Ujso&t=07m34s[/url]


* Here's Pippen fouling Sam Perkins and losing a game against the 90' Mavericks, except Jordan found Paxson for a last-second winner - (this was BEFORE phil allegedly told Jordan to find Paxson in the 91' Finals, so another media lie):[/B]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SD36-aVeJs&t=05m21s[/url]


* Pippen misses 2 FT's right before Reggie Miller's legendary winner in Game 4 of the 98' ECF (Rodman had offensive foul the very previous possession as well):

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eonuW7tQMQs&t=03m50s[/url]


*

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14374072]Not even Nicole Simpson & Ron Goldman’s families are as fixated on 1994 as OP is[/QUOTE]

:oldlol::roll::roll:

Phil never trusted pippen as a shooter. That is why he called him "sometimes-shooter". Pippen is just not the guy. He's a very good complimentary player to Jordan, but that is it.

[QUOTE=Airupthere;14380143]Phil never trusted pippen as a shooter. That is why he called him "sometimes-shooter". Pippen is just not the guy. He's a very good complimentary player to Jordan, but that is it.[/QUOTE]


A shooter and elite scorer or goat playmaker like Stockton or Harden would be a better complimentary player to Jordan than a guy like Pippen, who was usually a defensive role player.

Brook Lopez, Lou Williams, and Paul George - every sidekick wins without the star in the playoffs and makes it look easy, while prime Pippen made it look impossible and drastically failed to win without Jordan.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14380385]Brook Lopez, Lou Williams, and Paul George - every sidekick wins without the star in the playoffs and makes it look easy, while prime Pippen made it look impossible and drastically failed to win without Jordan.[/QUOTE]

What you drinking?

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14380388]What you drinking?[/QUOTE]


[B]It's just facts and videotape - Pippen was making dumb fouls to lose games [U]all the time[/U]:[/b]


* Pippen lost Game 3 of the 91' Finals by fouling out against Vlade on the last possession, until MJ hits the tying shot and dominates the OT without Pippen:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDn58T5Ujso&t=07m34s[/url]


* Here's Pippen fouling Sam Perkins and losing a game against the 90' Mavericks, except Jordan found Paxson for a last-second winner - (this was BEFORE phil allegedly told Jordan to find Paxson in the 91' Finals, so another media lie):[/B]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SD36-aVeJs&t=05m21s[/url]


* Pippen misses 2 FT's right before Reggie Miller's legendary winner in Game 4 of the 98' ECF (Rodman had offensive foul the very previous possession as well):

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eonuW7tQMQs&t=03m50s[/url]

[QUOTE=3ba11;14380552][B]It's just facts and videotape - Pippen was making dumb fouls to lose games [U]all the time[/U]:[/b]


* Pippen lost Game 3 of the 91' Finals by fouling out against Vlade on the last possession, until MJ hits the tying shot and dominates the OT without Pippen:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDn58T5Ujso&t=07m34s[/url]


* Here's Pippen fouling Sam Perkins and losing a game against the 90' Mavericks, except Jordan found Paxson for a last-second winner - (this was BEFORE phil allegedly told Jordan to find Paxson in the 91' Finals, so another media lie):[/B]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SD36-aVeJs&t=05m21s[/url]


* Pippen misses 2 FT's right before Reggie Miller's legendary winner in Game 4 of the 98' ECF (Rodman had offensive foul the very previous possession as well):

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eonuW7tQMQs&t=03m50s[/url][/QUOTE]

That shot by Reggie has to be one of the best gamewinners of all time. Crowd went totally nuts and you can see miller was under 1000cc of adrenaline. He shoved MJ right out his way. :lol

[QUOTE=tpols;14380560]

That shot by Reggie has to be one of the best gamewinners of all time. Crowd went totally nuts and you can see miller was under 1000cc of adrenaline. He shoved MJ right out his way. :lol


[/QUOTE]


The announcers went crazy.. Reggie was another guy that was superior to Pippen - they faced the same opponent in the playoffs 6 times, shown below:


[indent]R Miller vs. 90' Pistons..... 20.7 on 57%... 17.9 usage
Pippen. vs. 90' Pistons..... 16.6 on 43%... 20.4 usage

R Miller vs 93' Knicks....... 31.5 on 53%... 27.5 usage
Pippen. vs 93' Knicks....... 22.5 on 51%... 28.4 usage

R Miller vs 94' Knicks....... 24.7 on 44%... 30.1 usage
Pippen. vs 94' Knicks....... 21.7 on 41%... 31.7 usage

R Miller vs 95' Magic........ 25.9 on 52%... 26.2 usage
Pippen. vs 95' Magic........ 19.0 on 42%... 23.1 usage

R Miller vs 00' Lakers....... 24.3 on 41%... 25.0 usage
Pippen. vs 00' Lakers....... 15.1 on 43%... 19.5 usage
Pippen. vs 99' Lakers....... 18.3 on 33%... 23.5 usage

R Miller 98' ECF............... 17.4 on 41%... 21.1 usage
Pippen. 98' ECF............... 16.6 on 39%... 26.0 usage[/indent]


Miller's superior play explains why he had numerous great teams and historic runs without a single all-star teammate, while Pippen was barely .500 in 1995 before MJ came back and carried him to another 3-peat (pippen averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs).

Ultimately, the Shaq/Kobe Lakers or the MJ Bulls were nearly beaten by Smits/Miller, so Smits/MJ would win every year with that same Pacer cast.. Pippen is just the low-producing bum that arrived after the super-team 80's - expansion had spread the talent around evenly so 2-star teams could win - anyone wins alongside GOAT in a 2-star vs 2-star format.. If only Woolridge could've been so lucky to play with prime MJ in a 2-star format (90's), instead of rookie MJ in a super-team format (80's)

[QUOTE=3ba11;14374057]Here's what Pippen did right BEFORE the dumb foul on Hubert Davis - he passes up a huge clearout and gives it to BJ for a rushed shot:

[img]https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2021/_p33FZ.gif[/img]

[/QUOTE]

This is a typical lebron hot potato play.

[QUOTE=Airupthere;14380772]This is a typical lebron hot potato play.[/QUOTE]


lol, he can't do shit on Starks

[QUOTE=3ba11;14380774]lol, he can't do shit on Starks[/QUOTE]

Good lateral movement by starks. Pip didn't have a fast enough first step to do anything. Also, that hand by starks helped steer pip's direction. That will not be allowed now, plus it will only be exploited by soft calls, ala KD baiting for a foul by swinging his shot up to his left.

[QUOTE=Airupthere;14380776]Good lateral movement by starks. Pip didn't have a fast enough first step to do anything. Also, that hand by starks helped steer pip's direction. That will not be allowed now, plus it will only be exploited by soft calls, ala KD baiting for a foul by swinging his shot up to his left.[/QUOTE]


Yup, and I wonder if the Knicks would've allowed the left side to be cleared out like that against Kukoc.. regardless, I think Kukoc easily finds a jumper there somehow or a drive.. Or how about a post up on the smaller Starks - not even a thought for Pip

The Lead NBA official said it was a bad call. Even Hubert Davis was surprised he got the call.

[url]https://www.espn.com/nba/playoffs/2009/columns/story?columnist=adande_ja&page=Hollins-090529[/url]

But for some reason, that play was never mentioned in the last dance. Everyone knew it was a terrible call. The Bulls shoudve won in 6.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14380883]But for some reason, that play was never mentioned in the last dance. Everyone knew it was a terrible call. The Bulls shoudve won in 6.[/QUOTE]

If you saw the docu in full, why would THAT be in it? Besides the terrible call happened in game 5. No guarantee the Bulls would've then beat New York in 6. The argument reminds me of LeBron fans who say Chicago should have made the finals. Its like pump the brakes. They still had to get past Indy. :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=MadDog;14380890]If you saw the docu in full, why would THAT be in it? Besides the terrible call happened in game 5. No guarantee the Bulls would've then beat New York in 6. The argument reminds me of LeBron fans who say Chicago should have made the finals. Its like pump the brakes. They still had to get past Indy. :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

So now we cant play the "what if " game huh? But arent you one of those that feel that [I]if[/I] Scottie Pippen went to the Sonics, he wouldn't be the same player? Or [I]if[/I] Michael Jordan had any player that was solid in place of Pippen, he would have won multiple titles?

I think my assessment is much more feasible since the Bulls did win game 6. Jordan never did anything of value as far as winning until Pippen came of age. But you're right we dont know what wouldve happened

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14380965]So now we cant play the "what if " game huh? But arent you one of those that feel that [I]if[/I] Scottie Pippen went to the Sonics, he wouldn't be the same player? Or [I]if[/I] Michael Jordan had any player that was solid in place of Pippen, he would have won multiple titles?

I think my assessment is much more feasible since the Bulls did win game 6. Jordan never did anything of value as far as winning until Pippen came of age. But you're right we dont know what wouldve happened[/QUOTE]

You can say whatever you want dude. But that doesn't mean I am going to agree. Under your scenario, New York faces elimination in Game 6, and likely have a different mindset going in. Pippen never won "anything significant” without Jordan either. Difference being, Pippen had more help around him than Jordan did, yet still underachieved.

The Hollins call is exaggerated. There have been plenty of missed calls before and after that series. Some a lot worse. In the 98 ECF, Reggie pushed off Jordan to hit a game-winner. Refs missed the call. Why wasn’t that in TLD? :confusedshrug:

Idk what happens to Pippen in Seattle. We know that Pippen credited Jordan for his development, so it’s a possibility he is worse off. Pippen definitely isn’t winning as many championships though. Anyway, the docu was too Jordan centric. We both agree there.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14380883]But for some reason, that play was never mentioned in the last dance. Everyone knew it was a terrible call. The Bulls shoudve won in 6.[/QUOTE]


The replay shows it was a foul, and infact a HACK across Hubert's arm, as the OP shows.

Keep pretending tho, but you forget that people have eyes - everyone can see the hack - that gif is from the Knicks broadcast btw, which was the only viable angle.

[QUOTE=MadDog;14380980]You can say whatever you want dude. But that doesn't mean I am going to agree. Under your scenario, New York faces elimination in Game 6, and likely have a different mindset going in. Pippen never won "anything significant” without Jordan either. Difference being, Pippen had more help around him than Jordan did, yet still underachieved.[/QUOTE]
I dont need you to agree with me. I need you to be consistent in your argument. If you can play the "what if" game why cant I?


[QUOTE]The Hollins call is exaggerated. There have been plenty of missed calls before and after that series. Some a lot worse. In the 98 ECF, Reggie pushed off Jordan to hit a game-winner. Refs missed the call. Why wasn’t that in TLD? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
If the Bulls lost that series, trust and believe that Miller push wouldve been a point of contention. You always see everything that alludes to Pippens success outside of Jordan as exaggerated. Like Pippen playing hurt effecting his numbers? Now dont go into another thread and say something that's totally contradictory again.

[QUOTE]Idk what happens to Pippen in Seattle. We know that Pippen credited Jordan for his development, so it’s a possibility he is worse off. Pippen definitely isn’t winning as many championships though. Anyway, the docu was too Jordan centric. We both agree there.[/QUOTE]

That's all I'm saying bro. We dont know how Pippen wouldve faired in another situation. You're acting like Pippen was Ben Simmons and had 4 or 5 years WITHOUT MJ and then his offensive abilities dramatically improved upon joining MJ. WE DONT KNOW. Why didnt Jordan turn anybody else into a player as good as Pippen?

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14380388]What you drinking?[/QUOTE]


The same thing everyone else is drinking:


[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494397-Sourced-quotes-from-people-in-the-NBA-talking-candidly-about-Pippen[/url]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VTEz0j5UD0&t=421s[/url]

[QUOTE=3ba11;14381016]The replay shows it was a foul, and infact a HACK across Hubert's arm, as the OP shows.

Keep pretending tho, but you forget that people have eyes - everyone can see the hack - that gif is from the Knicks broadcast btw, which was the only viable angle.[/QUOTE]

The head referee and the NBA admitted it was a bad call. PERIOD.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14381023]The head referee and the NBA admitted it was a bad call. PERIOD.[/QUOTE]


A foul's a foul - you saw the gif - that's why it was called - and it wasn't the head referee's call, so who cares what he thinks - I'll take the referee's gut instinct in the moment rather than another referee's opinion after the fact who was further away.

The first thing they teach you in middle school is DON'T FOUL A JUMPSHOOTER, yet Pippen committed dumb fouls to lose [U]numerous[/U] games, as shown previously itt.. This is [I]standard[/I] for Pippen, so he doesn't deserve your excuses - not only was he an underperforming player, but he has extremely low character