Would Bird basically be a slightly shorter Jokic in this era (2017-now).

Jokic this past year.

Per 100 Possessions:
38/15.5/12, 130 ORTG, 31.3 PER, 64.7 TS%, 11.7 BPM.

For all measures, Jokic had an ABSURD regular season. He was also his usual superstar self in the playoffs.

Peak Larry Bird (84-88).

Per 100 Possessions:
34/12/8, 119 ORTG, 26.1 PER, 58.8 TS%, 8.7 BPM.

You're comparing statistics from entirely different circumstances.

Jokic is an awesome player, but he isn't as mean as Bird was. Both great players... its just a short sighted comparison given we don't know how Jokic career will pan out.

Jokic does remind me of Bird. Their games are pretty similar. Jokic benefits from his extra size and the better spacing in this era.

In past I think jokic was too unselfish. This year he finally became more aggressive looking for his shot. Quite an impressive season and fun guy to watch.

That seems like an incredibly flawed way to look at things

Per 100 Possessions

'21 Embiid: 44/16/4 121 ORTG 30.3 PER, 64%TS, 7.2 BPM

'00 Shaq: 38/18/5 115 ORTG 30.6 PER, 58%TS, 9.3 BPM

'94 Hakeem: 34/14/4 109 ORTG 25.3 PER, 57%TS, 6.8 BPM

This would suggest Embiid was better than 2 of the greatest peaks ever last season

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14441743]That seems like an incredibly flawed way to look at things

Per 100 Possessions

'21 Embiid: 44/16/4 121 ORTG 30.3 PER, 64%TS, 7.2 BPM

'00 Shaq: 38/18/5 115 ORTG 30.6 PER, 58%TS, 9.3 BPM

'94 Hakeem: 34/14/4 109 ORTG 25.3 PER, 57%TS, 6.8 BPM

This would suggest Embiid was better than 2 of the greatest peaks ever last season[/QUOTE]

I mean...mpg should play a factor too. I think Per 100 Poss can be used if players are playing 30+ mpg, it takes out pace a bit.

Also...I'm pretty sure Embiid is tied or even slightly ahead of Michael Jordan for points per minute for his career...but Embiid does play only 30.6 mpg for his career.

Even without Per 100, Jokic has massive raw stats while also being HIGHLY efficient from the field. Also his game is very similar to Bird's so I think they deserve a comp.

Also the 80's was a far faster pace/easier to score than the mid 90's-05 so I think we can still compare the 80's to now.

Joker is the closest thing we've seen to a 7 foot center version of Bird. Many point to Luka as the point guard version of Bird. But to be frank, I see more Bird in Joker to be honest. The efficiency and being able to dominate from a stationary position or off a bounce or two is VERY SIMILAR to Bird.

But MJ and Bird were the top two most feared scorers on the planet at one point. AND at the same time Bird was among the top 3 passers in the league. And an epic triple double threat. So Bird in today's league would be in contention for the best player in the league. As great as Joker is, he's more of a top 8-10 guy in the league.

A shorter version of Joker is selling Bird short. Bird is the pinnacle of his position in the HISTORY of hoops. Joker has a LONG WAY TO GO to be on that level among centers. Now in terms of offensive skill (scoring skillset, passing, handles), Joker is the MOST SKILLED center ever it's looking like. Hasn't done it for long, but we can't deny his offensive skillset.

[QUOTE=bizil;14441755]Joker is the closest thing we've seen to a 7 foot center version of Bird. Many point to Luka as the point guard version of Bird. But to be frank, I see more Bird in Joker to be honest. The efficiency and being able to dominate from a stationary position or off a bounce or two is VERY SIMILAR to Bird.

But MJ and Bird were the top two most feared scorers on the planet at one point. AND at the same time Bird was among the top 3 passers in the league. And an epic triple double threat. So Bird in today's league would be in contention for the best player in the league. As great as Joker is, he's more of a top 8-10 guy in the league.

A shorter version of Joker is selling Bird short. Bird is the pinnacle of his position in the HISTORY of hoops. Joker has a LONG WAY TO GO to be on that level among centers. Now in terms of offensive skill (scoring skillset, passing, handles), Joker is the MOST SKILLED center ever it's looking like. Hasn't done it for long, but we can't deny his offensive skillset.[/QUOTE]

I think it's safe to say Jokic could have a 10-year prime at a superstar level barring injury.

Idk where he will actually peak since he sucks at defense, but just talking offense he might be the most "skilled" center of all time.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14441743]That seems like an incredibly flawed way to look at things

Per 100 Possessions

'21 Embiid: 44/16/4 121 ORTG 30.3 PER, 64%TS, 7.2 BPM

'00 Shaq: 38/18/5 115 ORTG 30.6 PER, 58%TS, 9.3 BPM

'94 Hakeem: 34/14/4 109 ORTG 25.3 PER, 57%TS, 6.8 BPM

This would suggest Embiid was better than 2 of the greatest peaks ever last season[/QUOTE]

Embiid is a beast and he had butler in 2019 wow how come he didn't win the title that year?

[QUOTE=HBK_Kliq_2;14441814]Embiid is a beast and he had butler in 2019 wow how come he didn't win the title that year?[/QUOTE]


Embiid averaged only 18 ppg that series shooting 37% because he was being guarded by a former DPOY who was in his head.

Given the size difference Id say yeah their games are pretty similar. Joker is obviously bigger but keep in mind the league is bigger now too. Before 2003 it was pretty much a few superstar giants and a bunch of auto mechanics and grocery boys. The league got much more competitive around the time Bron came in.

Walton is a better comparisson to Joker (without the defense ofcourse).

I like the healthy Bill Walton option.

Bird with the freedom to shoot as many 3s as he wanted in today's game would need a rule to stop him.

Same with Rick Barry, World B. Free, Maravich...

I don't get the Watlon comp really. Bill was much more athletic and a much better defender. And Bill didn't function as a point center type of player. Even though he was a great passer. For me, Duncan is the closest we've seen to a Walton type of player. Duncan and Jokic BOTH are more dominant scorers than Bill though. Frankly, I think a 7 foot version of Bird is a pretty damn good comp. And even though he was a bit taller than Jokic, pre injury Sabonis would have been similar IF he made it to the league at that time.

Interesting comparison

Bird is only 7 cm shorter than Jokic.
He is 8 cm taller than Draymond.

If he played in this era he could probably play as PF/C.

We can call him:

Jokic with better shooting, scoring, ball handling

Or

Durant with less athleticism but better playmaking, rebounding

[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/rvsNtvC/images-q-tbn-ANd9-Gc-Si-Y5787-V4-Up-F7fhggx-AIFBft-VHVni-Tkf-PQ-usqp-CAU.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14441800]I think it's safe to say Jokic could have a 10-year prime at a superstar level barring injury.

Idk where he will actually peak since he sucks at defense, but just talking offense he might be the most "skilled" center of all time.[/QUOTE]
Nope, Joker is not even the most skilled big man in his era, Embid is more skilled on both sides of the ball. Kat is very skilled too, Joker is the best passing big in this era for sure.

[QUOTE=LeCola;14453267]Bird is only 7 cm shorter than Jokic.
He is 8 cm taller than Draymond.

If he played in this era he could probably play as PF/C.

We can call him:

Jokic with better shooting, scoring, ball handling

Or

Durant with less athleticism but better playmaking, rebounding

[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/rvsNtvC/images-q-tbn-ANd9-Gc-Si-Y5787-V4-Up-F7fhggx-AIFBft-VHVni-Tkf-PQ-usqp-CAU.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Jokic is a far better rebounder and ball handler than Bird. Wtf?

[QUOTE=999Guy;14453320]Jokic is a far better rebounder and ball handler than Bird. Wtf?[/QUOTE]

I said

[I]Durant with less athleticism but better playmaking, rebounding
[/I]
It means, I said Bird is better rebounder than Durant.

However, I don't agree that Jokic is not far better rebounder, not sure even better.

Jokic's:
Career average is 9.8.
Highest season is 10.8.

Bird's:
Career average is 10.0
Highest is 11.0
First 5 seasons average is 10.7 (He played PF)

Also, he averaged 15.3 rebounds in 81 finals.
He averaged 12.2 in playoffs in his first 5 seasons with playing 67 playoff games and winning 2 rings.

[QUOTE=999Guy;14453320]Jokic is a far better rebounder and ball handler than Bird. Wtf?[/QUOTE]

Birds quicker, more agile and a little more lethal.

[QUOTE=LeCola;14453440]I said

[I]Durant with less athleticism but better playmaking, rebounding
[/I]
It means, I said Bird is better rebounder than Durant.

However, I don't agree that Jokic is not far better rebounder, not sure even better.

Jokic's:
Career average is 9.8.
Highest season is 10.8.

Bird's:
Career average is 10.0
Highest is 11.0
First 5 seasons average is 10.7 (He played PF)

Also, he averaged 15.3 rebounds in 81 finals.
He averaged 12.2 in playoffs in his first 5 seasons with playing 67 playoff games and winning 2 rings.[/QUOTE]

You people might literally be 35 years behind making sense on NBA basketball.

I would have to go back in a time machine to not wanna slap the shit out of you for mentioning just raw rebounds to compare different eras.

[QUOTE=LeCola;14453267]Bird is only 7 cm shorter than Jokic.
He is 8 cm taller than Draymond.

If he played in this era he could probably play as PF/C.

We can call him:

Jokic with better shooting, scoring, ball handling

Or

Durant with less athleticism but better playmaking, rebounding

[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/rvsNtvC/images-q-tbn-ANd9-Gc-Si-Y5787-V4-Up-F7fhggx-AIFBft-VHVni-Tkf-PQ-usqp-CAU.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

I just noticed Jokic"s standing reach is 9'3. The same as Deandre Ayton who's taller and has a longer wingspan. His standing reach is higher than Giannis' too All that length wasted on low set shoulders. Bird's standing reach is 9'1 which is equal to or taller than most power forwards playing today. Just an inch below Giannis.

[QUOTE=theballerFKA Ace;14453541]I just noticed Jokic"s standing reach is 9'3. The same as Deandre Ayton who's taller and has a longer wingspan. His standing reach is higher than Giannis' too All that length wasted on low set shoulders. Bird's standing reach is 9'1 which is equal to or taller than most power forwards playing today. Just an inch below Giannis.[/QUOTE]

There is no way Giannis standing reach is that low. He grew several inches since his official measurements.

Jokic passed Larry Bird on the trip-dub list.

Jokic is also putting up an absurd 39.4/20.8/10.5 PER 100 Possessions this year so far. Dude is so damn underrated and already one of the best offensive players we've ever seen.

Jokic is too good man. Easily most underrated player in the league right now.

Bird had far quicker release and superior jumpshooter, while also having superior quickness and handle

And Jokic's passing is based on being able to catch the ball on the high post and just WAIT....... the spacing keeps help defenders far away so he has time to wait.... and the spacing also also means that someone will be open if you wait long enough

this doesn't compare to Bird passing quickly and threading needles in a no-spacing environment where quick passes were required due to closer help defenders (no time to stand and wait)

[QUOTE=3ba11;14551811]Bird had far quicker release and superior jumpshooter, while also having superior quickness and handle

And Jokic's passing is based on being able to catch the ball on the high post and just WAIT....... the spacing keeps help defenders far away so he has time to wait.... and the spacing also also means that someone will be open if you wait long enough

this doesn't compare to Bird passing quickly and threading needles in a no-spacing environment where quick passes were required due to closer help defenders (no time to stand and wait)[/QUOTE]

Nah

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14551821]Nah[/QUOTE]


Today's spacing is too much for defenders to cover, so someone is always open if you wait long enough

So anyone can catch the ball in the high post and wait until someone gets open. (beginner format)

Otoh, help defenders were standing right next to Bird in previous eras (no spacing), so there was no time to wait and no one was going to be open.. Bird had to thread needles and make QUICK decisions (no spacing) - therefore, he was a far superior passer

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14441743]That seems like an incredibly flawed way to look at things

Per 100 Possessions

'21 Embiid: 44/16/4 121 ORTG 30.3 PER, 64%TS, 7.2 BPM

'00 Shaq: 38/18/5 115 ORTG 30.6 PER, 58%TS, 9.3 BPM

'94 Hakeem: 34/14/4 109 ORTG 25.3 PER, 57%TS, 6.8 BPM

This would suggest Embiid was better than 2 of the greatest peaks ever last season[/QUOTE]

I responded to this post a while back, and want to respond again. You could argue Embiid is underrated a big (of course maybe it's this recent era).

Embiid is posting similar numbers to his 2021 season. This year he is 45/17/6.5 PER 100 POSS. 45 points per 100 possessions is crazy.

Basically Embiid gets to the free throw line at an absurd rate and it helps him have the highest scoring rate per minute (might have to check again but I believe he is ahead of MJ).

Embiid and Jokic are having insane years, best Center battle in a long time.

Offensively, Joker is the MOST SKILLED center ever. Scoring skillset, passing, and handles as a package. That's his mark! If we are talking most skilled on BOTH SIDES of the court, I would go with Embid. I used to go with The Dream for that. But with the way Embid uses the three as a weapon AND his handles, I think Joel has that crown. And if we are talking most skilled SCORER ever among centers, Embid, KAT, and Joker are LIKELY the top three ever in that regard. IN some type of order. The handles and three ball shooting they have ADDED to the center spot have set them apart. I'm NOT SAYING they are better players than a Shaq, Dream, Kareem, or Wilt. BUT they are gonna knock A LOT of the other legendary centers out of their spots on a peak-prime level. And GOAT wise, we gotta see the resumes the accumulate.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14558881]I responded to this post a while back, and want to respond again. You could argue Embiid is underrated a big (of course maybe it's this recent era).

Embiid is posting similar numbers to his 2021 season. This year he is 45/17/6.5 PER 100 POSS. 45 points per 100 possessions is crazy.

Basically Embiid gets to the free throw line at an absurd rate and it helps him have the highest scoring rate per minute (might have to check again but I believe he is ahead of MJ).

Embiid and Jokic are having insane years, best Center battle in a long time.[/QUOTE]

ABSOLUTELY! The way it's looking peak-prime wise, the ONLY CENTERS I would take over them are Shaq, Wilt, Kareem,and The Dream. That's the way this thing is starting to look with those two. And even in comparison to those four, the way they can shoot from deep and handle the rock WHILE maintaining old school center type values is AMAZING to watch! Especially at the size those guys are.

[QUOTE=LeCola;14453267]Bird is only 7 cm shorter than Jokic.
He is 8 cm taller than Draymond.

If he played in this era he could probably play as PF/C.

We can call him:

Jokic with better shooting, scoring, ball handling

Or

Durant with less athleticism but better playmaking, rebounding

[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/rvsNtvC/images-q-tbn-ANd9-Gc-Si-Y5787-V4-Up-F7fhggx-AIFBft-VHVni-Tkf-PQ-usqp-CAU.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]


I've never understood why more player don't shoot from that point.


.

Well?

There are a lot of similarities but Jokic also reminds us of Bird because he operates from the same parts of the floor. But would Bird even play the same way he used to in today's league? Would he not optimize his play to the current league? I don't know what or how much would change in his play. One thing that's very different between the two is motor, stamina and the resulting scoring volume. I don't think Jokic can match Bird in that regard.

Bumping this thread. People keep sleeping on Jok.

Jokic is top 10 all time if he gets another ring/FMVP. He's a taller/bigger Larry Bird in this era.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14870244]Jokic is top 10 all time if he gets another ring/FMVP. He's a taller/bigger Larry Bird in this era.[/QUOTE]

They're both white so they're basically the same player.

[QUOTE=FKAri;14870263]They're both white so they're basically the same player.[/QUOTE]

I mean, they have extremely similar skill sets/athleticism. Bird is just the PF version and Jokic is the Center version.

Papa Sabonis is the closest thing to Jokic

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14870266]I mean, they have extremely similar skill sets/athleticism. Bird is just the PF version and Jokic is the Center version.[/QUOTE]

A big part of Jokic's game is bully balling guys in the paint. Bird never did that.

[QUOTE=FKAri;14870330]A big part of Jokic's game is bully balling guys in the paint. Bird never did that.[/QUOTE]

Bird had post play, but you are right about that. It's actually an edge Jokic has over Bird because Jokic can always rely on bully ball AND do everything else Bird did on the perimeter.