We won in spite of Jordan getting on guys - Pippen

Another haymaker from Pippen:

[Quote]"In the doc, Michael attempted to justify the occasions in which he berated a teammate in front of the group. He felt these guys needed to develop the toughest to get past the the NBA's more physical teams. Seeing again how poorly Michael treated his teammates, I cringed, as I did back then.

"Michael was wrong. We didn't win six championships because he got on guys. We won in spite of his getting on guys. We won because we played team basketball, which hadn't been the case my first two seasons, when Doug Collins was our coach. That's what was special about playing for the Bulls: the camaraderie we established with one another, not that we felt blessed to be on the same team with the immortal Michael Jordan.
[/quote]


Pippen spitting truth right now.

They didn't win the first 2 seasons because Pippen sabotaged the Pistons series. They had Phil in '90 when MJ averaged 37/7/7/3 in the Playoffs and they were a game from the Finals and winning it all. What happened in that Game 7?

Pippen + Grant + Hodges + Cartwright + Armstrong combined for 28 pts on 11/57 shooting (19.29%) vs MJ's 13/27 FG for 31 points. Maybe MJ should have played less team basketball in that game and taken those shots himself.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14474718]They didn't win the first 2 seasons because Pippen sabotaged the Pistons series. They had Phil in '90 when MJ averaged 37/7/7/3 in the Playoffs and they were a game from the Finals and winning it all. What happened in that Game 7?

Pippen + Grant + Hodges + Cartwright + Armstrong combined for 28 pts on 11/57 shooting (19.29%) vs MJ's 13/27 FG for 31 points. Maybe MJ should have played less team basketball in that game and taken those shots himself.[/QUOTE]

Ethered. Next thread.

MJ stains in full on meltdown mode now :oldlol:

[QUOTE=8Ball;14474715]Another haymaker from Pippen:




Pippen spitting truth right now.[/QUOTE]

This is believable. I have never once won on a team where the "leader" berated teammates. It's usually the voice of reason guy who glues the group together. Jordan was lucky to have a Pippen to be the dam of MJs shit flood. And to a lesser extent Cliff Livingston.

If Pippen wasn't a great teammate Jordan would not be able to berate his teammates to 50 wins.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14474718]They didn't win the first 2 seasons because Pippen sabotaged the Pistons series. They had Phil in '90 when MJ averaged 37/7/7/3 in the Playoffs and they were a game from the Finals and winning it all. What happened in that Game 7?

Pippen + Grant + Hodges + Cartwright + Armstrong combined for 28 pts on 11/57 shooting (19.29%) vs MJ's 13/27 FG for 31 points. Maybe MJ should have played less team basketball in that game and taken those shots himself.[/QUOTE]

No excuses.

LeBron had even less help in 2018 playoffs and made the finals.

[QUOTE=8Ball;14474748]No excuses.

LeBron had even less help in 2018 playoffs and made the finals.[/QUOTE]

What happened in the Finals? Remember, no excuses.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14474718]They didn't win the first 2 seasons because Pippen sabotaged the Pistons series. They had Phil in '90 when MJ averaged 37/7/7/3 in the Playoffs and they were a game from the Finals and winning it all. What happened in that Game 7?

Pippen + Grant + Hodges + Cartwright + Armstrong combined for 28 pts on 11/57 shooting (19.29%) vs MJ's 13/27 FG for 31 points. Maybe MJ should have played less team basketball in that game and taken those shots himself.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=theman93;14474752]What happened in the Finals? Remember, no excuses.[/QUOTE]

Imkobe blamed Pippen for not making finals in 1990.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14474718]They didn't win the first 2 seasons because Pippen sabotaged the Pistons series. They had Phil in '90 when MJ averaged 37/7/7/3 in the Playoffs and they were a game from the Finals and winning it all. What happened in that Game 7?

Pippen + Grant + Hodges + Cartwright + Armstrong combined for 28 pts on 11/57 shooting (19.29%) vs MJ's 13/27 FG for 31 points. Maybe MJ should have played less team basketball in that game and taken those shots himself.[/QUOTE]

How did Pippen sabotage that series? Wasn't it Jordan that decided to stop shooting in game 5 because the coach told him he was being selfish?

And we gonna not give Pippen any kind of slack for having a bad game when he lost his father 3 weeks before that game 7? But we excuse Jordan for retiring a few weeks before the start of the season because his dad died? Wow.

[QUOTE=8Ball;14474746]If Pippen wasn't a great teammate Jordan would not be able to berate his teammates to 50 wins.[/QUOTE]

Exactly!!! How do people miss this? How many players do you think would put up with that day after day before demanding a trade? Or even worse pulling a Ron Artest and hurting Jordan. On any other team, Jordan's behavior would've made him a locker room cancer.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14474718]They didn't win the first 2 seasons because Pippen sabotaged the Pistons series. They had Phil in '90 when MJ averaged 37/7/7/3 in the Playoffs and they were a game from the Finals and winning it all. What happened in that Game 7?

Pippen + Grant + Hodges + Cartwright + Armstrong combined for 28 pts on 11/57 shooting (19.29%) vs MJ's 13/27 FG for 31 points. Maybe MJ should have played less team basketball in that game and taken those shots himself.[/QUOTE]first reply body bag. 8ball should just retire from this site honestly :lol

[QUOTE=8Ball;14474794]Imkobe blamed Pippen for not making finals in 1990.[/QUOTE]

And do you not blame Lebron's supporting cast for all the Finals he's lost?

[QUOTE=outofstomach;14474801]first reply body bag. 8ball should just retire from this site honestly :lol[/QUOTE]

Name me the 50 win seasons Jordan had without Pippen?

I won't be holding my breath.

In games Pippen missed during their title years, the Bulls went 32-12 which is 60-win pace.

[QUOTE=dankok8;14474810]In games Pippen missed during their title years, the Bulls went 32-12 which is 60-win pace.[/QUOTE]

Lol. That don't mean much. Jordan's only successful stint without Pippen was 98. But the rest is either a small sample size, or the Bulls were just terrible.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14474816]Lol. That don't mean much. Jordan's only successful stint without Pippen was 98. But the rest is either a small sample size, or the Bulls were just terrible.[/QUOTE]

He was 1-0 without Pippen in 1993, 5-0 in 1996 and 26-12 in 1998. The overall sample size is 44 games which is sizable, more than half a season's worth.

If it had been drexler instead of MJ with the Bulls, would they have done 2 3peats as well? If pippen is saying it was because they simply played team basketball. Would they have been as successful with drexler?

Jordan wouldn't be hard on Kareem, Worthy, McHale or Parish - he was only hard on Pippen, Grant and Cartwright because they were low-producing bums.. Inconsistent role players that needed constant prodding like a kindergartener to keep their focus up

[QUOTE=3ba11;14474940]Jordan wouldn't be hard on Kareem, Worthy, McHale or Parish - he was only hard on Pippen, Grant and Cartwright because they were low-producing bums.. Inconsistent role players that needed constant prodding like a kindergartener to keep their focus up[/QUOTE]

Pippen is one of the best players of all time and Horance Grant was an all star. Cartwright threatened to beat the shit out of MJ. He should have.

[QUOTE=dankok8;14474821]He was 1-0 without Pippen in 1993, 5-0 in 1996 and 26-12 in 1998. The overall sample size is 44 games which is sizable, more than half a season's worth.[/QUOTE]

What was Chicago's postseason record without Pippen during those title runs?

This is pretty much Jordan's only real weakness. While it could be effective and necessary, that in your face leadership style needed Phil and Pippen to balance things out. It is also true the other way around, you wont win trying to please everybody on the team and telling them things they wanna hear. Somebody needs to be the asshole and tell them what they need to hear to make the team better and tougher.

[QUOTE=8Ball;14474807]Name me the 50 win seasons Jordan had without Pippen?

I won't be holding my breath.[/QUOTE]

If you hold it you will die

[QUOTE=dankok8;14474821]He was 1-0 without Pippen in 1993, 5-0 in 1996 and 26-12 in 1998. The overall sample size is 44 games which is sizable, more than half a season's worth.[/QUOTE]

So you just repeated what I stated. 1 game in 1 season, 5 in another and half of 98. What about the other 5 seasons he played without Pip?

[QUOTE=dankok8;14474810]In games Pippen missed during their title years, the Bulls went 32-12 which is 60-win pace.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14474976]So you just repeated what I stated. 1 game in 1 season, 5 in another and half of 98. What about the other 5 seasons he played without Pip?[/QUOTE]

He would of won with shawn kemp too. F pippen and his fans they can all eat a dick

[IMG]https://townsquare.media/site/88/files/2020/05/GettyImages-74047244.jpg?w=980&q=75[/IMG]

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14474976]So you just repeated what I stated. 1 game in 1 season, 5 in another and half of 98. What about the other 5 seasons he played without Pip?[/QUOTE]

He had terrible supporting casts before and after Pippen. He was also clearly past his prime with the Wizards. Both of those statements are objective takes. No one reasonable would even disagree with them.

The only sample we do have of Jordan with a good cast is the 44 games I posted. I didn't even mean it to be a slight at Pippen. I've always said Pippen was a great player and top 50 all time even if he didn't play with MJ.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;14474949]What was Chicago's postseason record without Pippen during those title runs?[/QUOTE]

??

You guys call the 90s a weak and watered down era but worship pippen too much. The irony. :lol

[QUOTE=dankok8;14475072]He had terrible supporting casts before and after Pippen. He was also clearly past his prime with the Wizards. Both of those statements are objective takes. No one reasonable would even disagree with them.

The only sample we do have of Jordan with a good cast is the 44 games I posted. I didn't even mean it to be a slight at Pippen. I've always said Pippen was a great player and top 50 all time even if he didn't play with MJ.[/QUOTE]

I actually agree. The teams Jordan had without Pippen weren't good. But we're in Rome. And in Rome, context doesn't matter. That's why you have people knocking Pippen for not winning in 94. Or why you have people ripping Pippen for not winning in 00 at 35 years old. And you're in those chats saying the same shit against Pippen that you justify for Jordan. Those 94 and 95 teams were not good enough to win a championship and or got jobbed in 94, or Pippen while good, had too many miles and was too old in 00 to lead a team to a championship. So which one is it Dankok? Make up your mind.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14474797]How did Pippen sabotage that series? Wasn't it Jordan that decided to stop shooting in game 5 because the coach told him he was being selfish?

And we gonna not give Pippen any kind of slack for having a bad game when he lost his father 3 weeks before that game 7? But we excuse Jordan for retiring a few weeks before the start of the season because his dad died? Wow.[/QUOTE]

You have to understand who I'm replying to, lol. These same guys call Jordan "dad killer".

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14475175]I actually agree. The teams Jordan had without Pippen weren't good. But we're in Rome. And in Rome, context doesn't matter. That's why you have people knocking Pippen for not winning in 94. Or why you have people ripping Pippen for not winning in 00 at 35 years old. And you're in those chats saying the same shit against Pippen that you justify for Jordan. Those 94 and 95 teams were not good enough to win a championship and or got jobbed in 94, or Pippen while good, had too many miles and was too old in 00 to lead a team to a championship. So which one is it Dankok? Make up your mind.[/QUOTE]

Pippen wasn't good enough to lead a team to a championship as the best player but then again only twenty or so players in the 75-year history of the sport have been. It's not a slight on Pippen. Not many titles teams in league history would still win the title if you take away their best player? I think the 1994 Bulls weren't good enough to win a championship. Their win total of 55 wins (and actually 57-win pace with Pippen playing IIRC) is misleading. Their SRS which is a better predictor of team quality than W/L record was only +2.87 good for 11th in the league. They were 14th in ORtg and 6th in DRtg out of 27 teams. The Bulls overachieved in the regular season because they were motivated to prove they were still good without Jordan. And they were pretty good. Just not championship good... There is also the fact that the Bulls added Toni Kukoc in that 1993 offseason and he could have been worth a couple of wins as well. The 1993 Bulls before Jordan's retirement were sleepwalking through the regular season and still had a +6.19 SRS which was 4th in the league. 2nd in ORtg and 7th in DRtg. The 1993 Bulls were objectively a much better team than the 1994 Bulls despite comparable win totals.

You might have misunderstood some of my posts because I was responding to people who posted numbers without context. Unfortunately since this forum is full of Lebron stans, people actually perceive me as a Jordan stan which is kind of hilarious. I think Jordan is better than Lebron but I don't worship Jordan and have stated over and over that other players have GOAT cases as well. Anyways I never thought I would be defending MJ even a couple of years ago. If you check my posts from a few years ago I was a lot more pro-Lebron but then the hype train became too much and I started seeing Lebron as overrated.

Context is everything! :cheers:

Jordan unfairly got a bad reputation for being hard on teammates because his teammates were THAT BAD so he had to treat them like children..

He would never be that way with real players like Worthy or Kareem that didn't need to be raised like children - they dominated instead of wetting the bed with role player low production

Only Jordan had low-producing bums like Kerr, Paxson Pippen, or Cartwright that need whipping into shape - these guys were always wetting the bed and were usually bums

[QUOTE=3ba11;14475313]Jordan unfairly got a bad reputation for being hard on teammates because his teammates were THAT BAD so he had to treat them like children..

He would never be that way with real players like Worthy or Kareem that didn't need to be raised like children - they dominated instead of wetting the bed with role player low production

Only Jordan had low-producing bums like Kerr, Paxson Pippen, or Cartwright that need whipping into shape - these guys were always wetting the bed and were usually bums[/QUOTE]

Oh shut up. He had great teammates. He played with 3 other hall of farmers and 2 hall of fame coaches.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14474718]They didn't win the first 2 seasons because Pippen sabotaged the Pistons series. They had Phil in '90 when MJ averaged 37/7/7/3 in the Playoffs and they were a game from the Finals and winning it all. What happened in that Game 7?

Pippen + Grant + Hodges + Cartwright + Armstrong combined for 28 pts on 11/57 shooting (19.29%) vs MJ's 13/27 FG for 31 points. Maybe MJ should have played less team basketball in that game and taken those shots himself.[/QUOTE]

Let me quote Scott Maurice

" As the pressure grew, the pounding grew. Maybe it was the pressure of the game. I wasn't myself on the basketball court. I couldn't answer the bell"

The End

[QUOTE=dankok8;14475295]Pippen wasn't good enough to lead a team to a championship as the best player but then again only twenty or so players in the 75-year history of the sport have been. It's not a slight on Pippen. Not many titles teams in league history would still win the title if you take away their best player? I think the 1994 Bulls weren't good enough to win a championship. Their win total of 55 wins (and actually 57-win pace with Pippen playing IIRC) is misleading. Their SRS which is a better predictor of team quality than W/L record was only +2.87 good for 11th in the league. They were 14th in ORtg and 6th in DRtg out of 27 teams. The Bulls overachieved in the regular season because they were motivated to prove they were still good without Jordan. And they were pretty good. Just not championship good... There is also the fact that the Bulls added Toni Kukoc in that 1993 offseason and he could have been worth a couple of wins as well. The 1993 Bulls before Jordan's retirement were sleepwalking through the regular season and still had a +6.19 SRS which was 4th in the league. 2nd in ORtg and 7th in DRtg. The 1993 Bulls were objectively a much better team than the 1994 Bulls despite comparable win totals.

You might have misunderstood some of my posts because I was responding to people who posted numbers without context. Unfortunately since this forum is full of Lebron stans, people actually perceive me as a Jordan stan which is kind of hilarious. I think Jordan is better than Lebron but I don't worship Jordan and have stated over and over that other players have GOAT cases as well. Anyways I never thought I would be defending MJ even a couple of years ago. If you check my posts from a few years ago I was a lot more pro-Lebron but then the hype train became too much and I started seeing Lebron as overrated.

Context is everything! :cheers:[/QUOTE]

Context is everything. How do you know he wasn't good enough? The context has to be applied. Did he have the team? How many times did Pippen have top tier talent around him while in his prime to say what he couldn't do? Did he have a fair chance?

That's what's funny. See guys like Worthy, McHale, are ways looked at as being good enough to be the best player on a championship team, even though they never got remotely close to doing so. Pippen did.

So how are you quantifying Pippen nor being able to win a championship? Because the teams he led weren't as good as the teams Jordan led. Why didn't Ewing, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Wilkins to name a few not win a championship or win championship as the teams best player as in the case with Robinson.

You don't get to say Pippen wasn't good enough and then excuse the players I listed for not doing what Pippen wasn't able to do when those players had a whole career to win as the best player where Pippen only had 1. Truth be told, Pippen faired as well as anybody else. The only reason the 20 players you alluded to have rings is because they had one of the top 3 teams that year. Typically players aren't expected to win unless they have the most talent. Unless you're Scottie Pippen.

I mean let's be fair.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14475320]Oh shut up. He had great teammates. He played with 3 other hall of farmers and 2 hall of fame coaches.[/QUOTE]


We're all adults here and know the facts

Kukoc was HOF for his euro career, so you're the one lying and stretching the truth

and Jordan 3-peated from 91-93' with 1 HOF and a 1st time, nobody coach - Phil was a 1st time, nobody coach in 90/91, while Jordan was already a goat candidate.

Those are the facts

[QUOTE=2much_knowledge;14475321]Let me quote Scott Maurice

" As the pressure grew, the pounding grew. Maybe it was the pressure of the game. I wasn't myself on the basketball court. I couldn't answer the bell"

The End[/QUOTE]

His father died 3 week before that game 7 jackass. The pistons were literally trying to hurt him. Yall don't cut Pippen any slack. He may have got the migraine by being kicked and elbowed into the head by the Pistons.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14475332]His father died 3 week before that game 7 jackass. The pistons were literally trying to hurt him. Yall don't cut Pippen any slack. He may have got the migraine by being kicked and elbowed into the head by the Pistons.[/QUOTE]


Jordan 3-peated from 91-93' with a single all-star teammate and a 1st-time coach

Only the goat can do that

[QUOTE=3ba11;14475331]We're all adults here and know the facts

Kukoc was HOF for his euro career, so you're the one lying and stretching the truth

and Jordan 3-peated from 91-93' with 1 HOF and a 1st time, nobody coach - Phil was a 1st time, nobody coach in 90/91, while Jordan was already a goat candidate.

Those are the facts[/QUOTE]

Kukoc is a hall of famer for his basketball career. Not just what he did in Europe. 3 championships, 6th man of the year.