Why was Hakeem getting beat in Rd 1 or missing the playoffs for so much of his prime

'89 first round L
'90 first round L
'91 first round L (swept)
'92 [U]missed the playoffs[/U].

^ That was age 25-29. In a league with far less total talent than today. Three straight first round bounces, and a missed playoffs. In his prime.



And the same idiots who destroy players today for playoff results have the nerve to put Hakeem in their top 10 :roll:

Imagine being that low IQ.

His team was bad. Also bit overrated by this board. He’s easily the worst playmaker among guys in the top 15. He’s just a really good shotmaker but those guys don’t elevate your offense that much unless they’re also floor spacers

[QUOTE=NBAGOAT;14913079]His team was bad. Also bit overrated by this board. He’s easily the worst playmaker among guys in the top 15. He’s just a really good shotmaker but those guys don’t elevate your offense that much unless they’re also floor spacers[/QUOTE]

Interesting.

Why are there so many low IQ people on ISH who cherry pick the good parts of Hakeem's resume to put him top 10, but for today's players they include all the shortcomings when evaluating a guy?

[QUOTE=FultzNationRISE;14913081]Interesting.

Why are there so many low IQ people on ISH who cherry pick the good parts of Hakeem's resume to put him top 10, but for today's players they include all the shortcomings when evaluating a guy?[/QUOTE]

You get excused when you have a team with just role players. Add on when the role guys and hakeem improved they won a title and it’s one of the few times in history a guy won with no co star

[QUOTE=NBAGOAT;14913085]You get excused when you have a team with just role players. Add on when the role guys and hakeem improved they won a title and [B]it’s one of the few times in history a guy won with no co star[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, what a coincidence.

Now let's pretend that exact situation happened today. What would the narrative be?



[IMG]https://a.espncdn.com/photo/2019/0407/r525728_2_1296x729_16-9.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Cedric-Van-Den-Spiegel/publication/334231233/figure/fig6/AS:776945528762369@1562249657292/8-Logo-Asterisk-Source-Wikimediaorg-With-its-two-million-annual-downloads-and-one.ppm[/IMG]


Why do people only apply context to today's players and not for any of their precious "Nostalgia GOATs"?

Black hole, didn't play well with others, settled for jumpers too often. Inconsistent player in general.

When he was motivated and his jumper was on he was unstoppable. A lot of the time one or the other was missing.

I haven't done a GOAT list in years. Refresh my memory: where is Hakeem usually ranked? Around 8-12, right?

[QUOTE=Im Still Ballin;14913095]I haven't done a GOAT list in years. Refresh my memory: where is Hakeem usually ranked? Around 8-12, right?[/QUOTE]

Usually ahead of Duncan, Kobe, Curry, Jokic, Durant, sometimes ahead of Shaq, and even on completely retarded occasions ahead of Lebron.

Somehow the Hakeem mystique has ensured nobody from later generations can pass him, even tho his playoff success is FAR more inconsistent than many of today's greats, despite a weaker era. And yet playoff success is the exact criterion these same people use to put Hakeem ahead of guys who had more of it.

Funny how that works.

[QUOTE=FultzNationRISE;14913089]Yes, what a coincidence.

Now let's pretend that exact situation happened today. What would the narrative be?



[IMG]https://a.espncdn.com/photo/2019/0407/r525728_2_1296x729_16-9.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Cedric-Van-Den-Spiegel/publication/334231233/figure/fig6/AS:776945528762369@1562249657292/8-Logo-Asterisk-Source-Wikimediaorg-With-its-two-million-annual-downloads-and-one.ppm[/IMG]


Why do people only apply context to today's players and not for any upof their precious "Nostalgia GOATs"?[/QUOTE]

Narrative be hakeem took the leap from just an all time great to one of the best peaks of all time and his team got better. That was narrative back then and now. Realgm gave him a top 5 peak I think. Current guys have also been excused for not winning with no help. Jokic 22 being a recent examine

[QUOTE=FultzNationRISE;14913097]Usually ahead of Duncan, Kobe, Curry, Jokic, Durant, sometimes ahead of Shaq, and even on completely retarded occasions ahead of Lebron.

Somehow the Hakeem mystique has ensured nobody from later generations can pass him, even tho his playoff success is FAR more inconsistent than many of today's greats, despite a weaker era. And yet playoff success is the exact criterion these same people use to put Hakeem ahead of guys who had more of it.

Funny how that works.[/QUOTE]
Nah, Duncan is consistently ranked ahead of Hakeem, who's usually in the fringe top 10 range. The guy does have 2 titles, 2 FMVP's and made 3 Finals, which is worst case as good, if not better, than virtually anybody else outside the top 10. It's not just the titles, his peak during those years (and '93 too) was legitimately as dominant as any player ever, and imo it's his level of play during those years that has a lot of people putting him in the top 10, not just the titles themselves.

You really think he doesn't have a valid case to be ranked ahead of Kobe, Curry, KD, Jokic etc.?

[QUOTE=FultzNationRISE;14913097]Usually ahead of Duncan, Kobe, Curry, Jokic, Durant, sometimes ahead of Shaq, and even on completely retarded occasions ahead of Lebron.

Somehow the Hakeem mystique has ensured nobody from later generations can pass him, even tho his playoff success is FAR more inconsistent than many of today's greats, despite a weaker era. And yet playoff success is the exact criterion these same people use to put Hakeem ahead of guys who had more of it.

Funny how that works.[/QUOTE]

I don’t really see hakeem over duncan very much, that is definitely an outside opinion

To be simplistic he had an insane peak and people like to FMVP count. And he has 2x that of jokic.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14913106]Nah, Duncan is usually ahead of Hakeem, who's typically in the fringe top 10 range. The guy does have 2 titles, 2 FMVP's and made 3 Finals, which is better than virtually anybody outside the top 10. It's not just the b2b titles, his peak those 2 years (and '93 too) was legitimately as dominant as any player ever, and imo it's his level of play during those years that has a people putting him in the top 10, not just the titles themselves.

[B]You really think it's that bad he's ranked ahead of Kobe, Curry, KD, Jokic etc.?[/B][/QUOTE]

My point is if you ask someone today to critique those players... they're going to include every failure and caveat under the sun. People yesterday were saying Jokic was eliminated from the top 10 because he had a mediocre second half to last night's game.

I have NEVER heard anyone mention Hakeem's [I]four year playoff drought in his prime[/I]. He won two playoff GAMES in four years of his [B]prime[/B].

Now, is there context to that? Sure. But people dont use context when they talk about Lebron's finals record. Or they'll use context negatively when talking about KD's Golden State run.

But nobody ever says "Man, Hakeem won two playoff GAMES in four years, what's up with that." People just dont bring it up. They'll bring up how Curry's 73 win team called MVP KD from the parking lot of a finals loss to beg for help and that's how they got two more championships. But they dont talk about prime Hakeem getting swept in round 1.

You just never ever hear this aspect of Hakeem's career mentioned the way you hear every modern player's career get picked apart game by game.

[QUOTE=FultzNationRISE;14913110]My point is if you ask someone today to critique those players... they're going to include every failure and caveat under the sun. People yesterday were saying Jokic was eliminated from the top 10 because he had a mediocre second half to last night's game.

I have NEVER heard anyone mention Hakeem's [I]four year playoff drought in his prime[/I]. He won two playoff GAMES in four years of his [B]prime[/B].

Now, is there context to that? Sure. But people dont use context when they talk about Lebron's finals record. Or they'll use context negatively when talking about KD's Golden State run.

But nobody ever says "Man, Hakeem won two playoff GAMES in four years, what's up with that." People just dont bring it up. They'll bring up how Curry's 73 win team called MVP KD from the parking lot of a finals loss to beg for help and that's how they got two more championships. But they dont talk about prime Hakeem getting swept in round 1.

You just never ever hear this aspect of Hakeem's career mentioned the way you hear every modern player's career get picked apart game by game.[/QUOTE]
I just mentioned in another thread the shocking amount of mediocre playoff series Bird had that never get talked about, the fact is guys that came before the internet/social media age caught a huge break in that all their failures weren't documented permanently in real time for all the world to see. That's an advantage pre 2000's players will always have over those that came afterword.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14913109]I don’t really see hakeem over duncan very much, that is definitely an outside opinion

To be simplistic he had an insane peak and people like to FMVP count. And he has 2x that of jokic.[/QUOTE]

Okay but it's the exact kind of thing people would completely dismiss other players from being top 10 for. "Four years with no playoff series wins in his prime, hell no."

It's literally a worse and more damning indictment than "durr, 4 for 10 in finals, he cant be da G0at!"

But nobody ever uses it. EVAAAA.

[QUOTE=FultzNationRISE;14913114]Okay but it's the exact kind of thing people would completely dismiss other players from being top 10 for. "Four years with no playoff series wins in his prime, hell no."

It's literally a worse and more damning indictment than "durr, 4 for 10 in finals, he cant be da G0at!"

But nobody ever uses it. EVAAAA.[/QUOTE]

it’s tough because i’m speaking on behalf of people but I think they consider the 2 fmvps in back to back championships erasing a lot of those early problems.

I would say the common consensus is that during those prime years you listed in the OP…his team was just not very good. Theres only so much you can do and it doesn’t help when you are running into the Lakers constantly.

Hakeem also in his second year beat the 1986 Lakers who were an all time great team

[QUOTE=NBAGOAT;14913099]Narrative be hakeem took the leap from just an all time great to one of the best peaks of all time and his team got better. That was narrative back then and now. [/QUOTE]


But why did Hakeem all of a sudden go to another level in 94' and 95'?

What changed?

The king lion was gone... that's what changed... one day Hakeem woke up and looked around.... It dawned on him that he was now the king lion - that's when his game and confidence went to another level...

That's when he had the confidence to let his full bag out and the "dream shake" was born (a version of the Jordan windshield wiper move)... Hakeem was like "I'm MJ now"... lol

[QUOTE=3ba11;14913133]But why did Hakeem all of a sudden go to another level in 94' and 95'?

What changed?

The king lion was gone... that's what changed... one day Hakeem woke up and looked around.... It dawned on him that he was now the king lion - that's when his game and confidence went to another level... That's when he had the confidence to let his full bag out and the "dream shake" was born (a version of the Jordan windshield wiper move).[/QUOTE]
The king lion was back in '95 but Nick Anderson threw him off a cliff like Mufasa. Hakeem then went on to SWEEP the team that kicked Jordan's ass to the curb.

[QUOTE=FultzNationRISE;14913110]My point is if you ask someone today to critique those players... they're going to include every failure and caveat under the sun. People yesterday were saying Jokic was eliminated from the top 10 because he had a mediocre second half to last night's game.

I have NEVER heard anyone mention Hakeem's [I]four year playoff drought in his prime[/I]. He won two playoff GAMES in four years of his [B]prime[/B].

Now, is there context to that? Sure. But people dont use context when they talk about Lebron's finals record. Or they'll use context negatively when talking about KD's Golden State run.

But nobody ever says "Man, Hakeem won two playoff GAMES in four years, what's up with that." People just dont bring it up. They'll bring up how Curry's 73 win team called MVP KD from the parking lot of a finals loss to beg for help and that's how they got two more championships. But they dont talk about prime Hakeem getting swept in round 1.

You just never ever hear this aspect of Hakeem's career mentioned the way you hear every modern player's career get picked apart game by game.[/QUOTE]

people who say jokic cant be top 10 because of 1 half shouldnt be taken seriously.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14913133]But why did Hakeem all of a sudden go to another level in 94' and 95'?

What changed?

The king lion was gone... that's what changed... one day Hakeem woke up and looked around.... It dawned on him that he was now the king lion - that's when his game and confidence went to another level...

That's when he had the confidence to let his full bag out and the "dream shake" was born (a version of the Jordan windshield wiper move).[/QUOTE]


Jordan not playing was completely irrelevant to Houston making the finals. Do you not realize Houston is in the West?

:facepalm

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14913140]The king lion was back in '95 but Nick Anderson threw him off a cliff like Mufasa. Hakeem then went on to SWEEP the team that kicked Jordan's ass to the curb.[/QUOTE]


1st options that led their team to Finals in the 1990's


[indent]Shaq
Hakeem
Drexler
Ewing
Malone
Barkley
MJ
Robinson
Payton[/indent]


^^^ these are the best players of the 90's and the 95' Rockets are the only team that had 2 of these guys on 1 team.

I've always said that if MJ had not played baseball, the 95' Rockets were the team that would've ended the Bulls reign by stopping the 5-peat.. Horry had higher gamescore in the 95' Finals than any of Pippen's Finals.

Of course, the 96' Sonics destroyed Hakeem and Drexler in 96' - an obliteration - and then MJ killed them in the Finals with 36 points in Game 3 to cinch the series - it's actually a very underrated game by him and it was one of those "textbook triangle" games where he scores in the system like a role player but ends up with 36 - he could dominate with any style, even the role player style of scoring... Overall, Jordan averaged 31 on 46% to get 3-0 lead before relaxing.

And of course no one cared about MJ losing in 95' because everyone knew there would be an adjustment period.. Check out his advanced stats in 95' - they're Wizards' level.

[QUOTE=tontoz;14913144]Jordan not playing was completely irrelevant to Houston making the finals. Do you not realize Houston is in the West?

:facepalm[/QUOTE]


You missed the point - apparently you've never done anything competitive.

There's a special confidence that comes with knowing that you're the best player on the floor - or in this case, in the league... You can basically f*ck around and do whatever you want - no one can say anything to you because you're the best... As the non-competitor that I suspect you to be, you might think that you can just speak up or question the top guy, but you can't.. This knowledge gives the top guy a special confidence and swagger - we [I]clearly[/I] saw this in 94' from Hakeem - he was a different player because the king lion was gone and he realized that HE'S the king lion now..

Hakeem busted out the full dream-shake bag in 94', which was a version of Jordan's windshield wiper move.. Hakeem was like "I'm MJ now"

I know what you're up to, OP. :lol

[QUOTE=3ba11;14913152]You missed the point - apparently you've never done anything competitive.

There's a special confidence that comes with knowing that you're the best player on the floor - or in this case, in the league... You can basically f*ck around and do whatever you want - no one can say anything to you because you're the best... As the non-competitor that I suspect you to be, you might think that you can just speak up or question the top guy, but you can't.. This knowledge gives the top guy a special confidence and swagger - we [I]clearly[/I] saw this in 94' from Hakeem - he was a different player because the king lion was gone and he realized that HE'S the king lion now..

Hakeem busted out the full dream-shake bag in 94', which was a version of Jordan's windshield wiper move.. Hakeem was like "I'm MJ now"[/QUOTE]



So Jordan's presence in the east is why Houston couldn't even make it to the WCF?

:roll:

[QUOTE=tontoz;14913155]So Jordan's presence in the east is why Houston couldn't even make it to the WCF?

:roll:[/QUOTE]


No, Jordan's absence in 94' gave Hakeem the confidence to bust out his full bag... By 96', Hakeem couldn't maintain the dominance at just 33 years old - part of that is he knows MJ is fully-back now.. He isn't the king lion anymore.. It's all part and parcel

[QUOTE=3ba11;14913158]No, Jordan's absence in 94' gave Hakeem the confidence to bust out his full bag... By 96', Hakeem couldn't maintain the dominance at just 33 years old - part of that is he knows MJ is fully-back now.. He isn't the king lion anymore.. It's all part and parcel[/QUOTE]



[IMG]https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/g195/tontoz/.highres/dumb.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=tontoz;14913159][IMG]https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/g195/tontoz/.highres/dumb.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]


Pick up a ball son

I remember reading Bill Simmons book years back and he mentioned there were Reggie Lewis for Hakeem trade rumors back in the early 90's and that most Celtics fans were against that. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=3ba11;14913158]No, Jordan's absence in 94' gave Hakeem the confidence to bust out his full bag... By 96', Hakeem couldn't maintain the dominance at just 33 years old - part of that is he knows MJ is fully-back now.. He isn't the king lion anymore.. It's all part and parcel[/QUOTE]

[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/47cqZqp/IMG-8678.png[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855;14913186][IMG]https://i.ibb.co/47cqZqp/IMG-8678.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]


I'm using Hakeem's own association - he thinks in terms of the king lion depiction that I used earlier:


[indent][img]https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-24-2020/TZ-v5K.gif[/img][/indent]


When MJ retired, Hakeem realized that he was now the lion on the rock that no one could disturb - the best in the league, and the confidence took his game to another level.. He busted out his full bag of dream shakes, which was a version of Jordan's windshield wiper move, so it's almost as if Hakeem was like "I'm MJ now"

After Jordan Hakeem might just be the best two way player ever.

What’s crazy is his D is better than his offense. And his offense is all time great. lol.

[QUOTE=Norcaliblunt;14913201]After Jordan Hakeem might just be the best two way player ever.

What’s crazy is his D is better than his offense. And his offense is all time great. lol.[/QUOTE]

There is no debate. Peak Hakeem is the GOAT two way player.

I believe Russell & Hakeem are #1 and #2 in terms of defense.

Hakeem didn't have the playmaking, but he was an all-time great scorer.

[QUOTE=tontoz;14913159][IMG]https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/g195/tontoz/.highres/dumb.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

3braincells functions one for each:

1. deifying MJ
2. Kobe as successor
3. crucifying Bron

Coaching.

As soon as Rudy took over and made Hakeem the focal point, he and the team took off.


.

[QUOTE=FultzNationRISE;14913081]Interesting.

Why are there so many low IQ people on ISH who cherry pick the good parts of Hakeem's resume to put him top 10, but for today's players they include all the shortcomings when evaluating a guy?[/QUOTE]

Probably because he peaked at a very high level and his peak was both being the best defensive big man and the best offensive big man, at the time, and he won against other all time greats like Ewing, Shaq, Robinson.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14913133]But why did Hakeem all of a sudden go to another level in 94' and 95'?

What changed?

The king lion was gone... that's what changed... one day Hakeem woke up and looked around.... It dawned on him that he was now the king lion - that's when his game and confidence went to another level...

That's when he had the confidence to let his full bag out and the "dream shake" was born (a version of the Jordan windshield wiper move)... Hakeem was like "I'm MJ now"... lol[/QUOTE]

MJ had nothing to do with Houston not getting to the Finals

Wasn't Hakeem known for his coke and groupie habit in his early years?

And he credits finding god, islam, for turning his career around?

[QUOTE=90sgoat;14913328]Wasn't Hakeem known for his coke and groupie habit in his early years?

And he credits finding god, islam, for turning his career around?[/QUOTE]

I don’t think i’ve ever heard anything like that.

[QUOTE=90sgoat;14913328]Wasn't Hakeem known for his coke and groupie habit in his early years?

And he credits finding god, islam, for turning his career around?[/QUOTE]

He had teammates that were into coke in his early years in Houston (Mitchell Wiggins (Andrew's dad, Lewis Lloyd and Ralph Sampson, the first two were even banned for a couple of years after their trip to the finals). However, I have never heard him being part of that group. What I have heard Hakeem admit is that he used to be a selfish player and put himself above the team before turning to Islam. He became a much better, likeable teammate after that and the results of the following years are a living proof of that.

[QUOTE=FultzNationRISE;14913074]'89 first round L
'90 first round L
'91 first round L (swept)
'92 [U]missed the playoffs[/U].

^ That was age 25-29. In a league with far less total talent than today. Three straight first round bounces, and a missed playoffs. In his prime.



And the same idiots who destroy players today for playoff results have the nerve to put Hakeem in their top 10 :roll:

Imagine being that low IQ.[/QUOTE]


Because he had the worst supporting casts out of any consensus Top 15 player, and his owner was horrible….maybe not quite Glen Taylor bad, but close.

And examine some of these series/years.

In ‘88 they were without Sampson, who suffered a season-ending injury. Even at full strength that was not a very good team, but Hakeem dragged them to 46 wins. What happened in the playoffs?

Man put up 38/17/2/2/3 on 64% TS. No typos there. They lost 3-1 to a 53 win team, but what more do you realistically expect out of one player?

They next year their roster was even thinner, sporting a supporting cast of: Otis Thorpe, Sleepy Floyd, Mike Woodson, Buck Johnson, Walter Berry, Derrick Chievous, Purvis Short and Tim McCormick.

They win 45, again lose without HCA and Hakeem plays well - 25/13/3/3 on 55%.

The Rockets trot out nearly the same roster the following year and lose to a 63 win Lakers, where Hakeem has arguably his least impactful playoff series but still puts up 19/12/2/3 on 6 blocks.

Finally, in ‘91, they add some semblance of support in Smith, but this still falls well short of a championship cast. Win 52, draw the eventual finalists in the first round and Hakeem once again has a great individual series - 22/15/2 3 blks on 63% TS.


Not too damning. Everyone and their mother’s will tell you Jordan was a GOAT-level player even in his early years (better than Hakeem, naturally), yet even that didn’t will him to deep playoff runs.

A minimum threshold of support must have been met for Hakeem to catch criticism for these team underperformances, and it simply wasn’t.

Now, what happened when he *did* receive a contender-level supporting cast, even a marginal one? He managed to squeeze two titles out of it.

In ‘94 he faced Barkley, Malone and Ewing, all of whom had equal or better supporting casts. He was the better player in each of these match-ups, and his team won. Absolutely embarrassed Ewing.

In ‘95 he faced Malone, Barkley, Robinson and Shaq. Again a supporting cast deficit (at least on paper) in every series, and again he was at least equal to or better than the other teams #1. Won a second title without HCA in any round, beating 4 teams that averaged 59 wins.

These results speak for themselves. Swap Hakeem/Duncan and TD is hard-pressed to win more than two, all else (for the sake of the argument) remaining equal. As is Shaq, who won “”””only””” three as the top guy despite having good-to-great situations for the first 15 years of his career.

I’m a big TD guy and rank him marginally ahead of Hakeem, but it’s literally only because of Rangz. I can’t sit here and make any other case for Duncan being definitively ahead as an individual player. There’s a reason no Rockets fan is salty about them drafting Hakeem over Jordan.

^ I totally get. I agree there is context to every result.

But when people discuss ranking Kawhi, inevitably people will bring up blowing a 3-1 lead to a seven foot Windhorst.

If Lebron loses in the finals to the best roster ever assembled people will use that as a reason he cant be ahead of MJ.

People were defining Jokic’s career the other night because he missed a few threes in the first half of a single game.

Ive never heard anyone make such superficial critiques of Hakeem, even tho the opportunity to do so is clearly there.

People scrutinize EVERYTHING about today’s players, and reduce their status with every loss, but seem to “win wash” all the guys from the past. Only the wins count when they rank guys from back in the day.