How credible is a Steph Curry GOAT case?

I feel like a case can be made.

Emphasize offensive goodness, impact on the game (both small scale tactics and large scale team strategy), and ceiling raising. De-emphasize individual defense (although a positive interpretation sees him as an above average defender anyway) and lack of durability.

Only thing GOAT about Steph is his shooting.

Mods, we can close this thread.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14936027]Only thing GOAT about Steph is his shooting.

Mods, we can close this thread.[/QUOTE]
[url]https://fadeawayworld.net/stephen-curry-is-0-14-from-the-field-on-shots-to-take-the-lead-in-the-final-50-seconds-of-playoff-games[/url]


Now we can close thread.

OP I hope you're ok man. This is unhinged.

Steph introduced the world to a superior way of playing and he's the best at this superior way

I thought it was a simpleton way of playing?

[QUOTE=Carbine;14936061]I thought it was a simpleton way of playing?[/QUOTE]

It was, until screwball realized that he could use Steph as part of his anti LeBron agenda.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14936027]Only thing GOAT about Steph is his [b]3pt[/b] shooting.

Mods, we can close this thread.[/QUOTE]
Fixed

I have him in my Mt HUNGMORE along with MJ, Kobe and Magic

Curry changed the game.

We gotta consider him for top 10 all time.

We have recently seen a thread where a poster who shall not be named, a very petty and petulant individual started a long hate campaign on the one known as Chef Dingo saying he's not close to Top 10 all time [I][B]even in the midst of his record shattering Olympic performance.[/B]
[/I]

While this topic may be jumping the gun, it's a nice counter thread to the aforementioned topic.

To find a balance I think we can all agree Curry is Top 5 GOAT with a chance to possibly move up depending on future longevity.

This is a nice and fair compromise fellas.

That changing the game narrative applies to all the best players of their generation

You just weren't alive then to have experienced it.

Wilt/Russell

Kareem with his skyhook revolutionized the "go to" post move.

Magic changed the game being a towering point guard with the best passing gene.

MJ was MJ.

Shaq reset the bar as to what a physical specimen was. The league had to adjust to him in his peak.

Lebron and Steph.

Jokic to a lesser extent as a post player with the best passing gene in the league.

Wemby will likely be in this category down the line barring injury.

Curry is not nearly the only one to chance the game. It's a weak argument, as is his top 5 goat candidacy.

Pretty sure nobody ever changed the way others play more than Steph. Kids didn't change the way they play much to emulate MJ, Kareem or Wilt because they couldn't do the things those guys do.

Steph is more relatable, using ball handling, shooting and off ball movement to dominate. That doesn't mean he is better than those guys but he has certainly been more influential than all of them.

as much case as this chick has for the GOAT breakdancer

[IMG]https://i.abcnewsfe.com/a/1ee44e01-4a08-4e80-bfce-c64f69be6bee/Raygun-3-gty-gmh-240812_1723472077546_hpMain.jpg[/IMG]

....as credible as LBJ's GOAT case.

[QUOTE=gengiskhan;14936125]....as credible as LBJ's GOAT case.[/QUOTE]

it’s actually better

curry doesn’t have the team hops, he doesn’t have the chokes, he doesn’t have the GOAT choke (2011), where lebron joined the 2nd and 4th highest PER in the league (Wade had FMVP experience as well), and went on to claim he’s going to get 8 titles in Miami and it’s “going to be easy” only to subsequently lose in the Finals while being outscored by 0 time all star, journeyman, undersized shooting guard, Jason Terry, despite Terry logging in 67 less minutes than Lebron during the Finals.

Bron has a bunch of empty stats from longevity but with his teamhops and finals disappointments, along with the goat choke, it really bombed his all time rating. There was a moment he could have been goat. It went really sideways for him after The Decision.

OP and 90sgoat have lost their minds since Captain LeMerica happened.

Sad.

I don't think he's there, but the level below the main 3 IMO. There's 4-5 guys there and Steph is in that conversation. Now if he say wins another chip and depending how it goes, you might start that conversation but that died along with the Lauri trade getting nixed.

In the rs, maybe. But when it comes to playoff resume, it's hard to imagine considering he didn't get a finals mvp until his sixth trip to the finals.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;14936067]Fixed[/QUOTE]

No he is the GOAT shooter period.

He has great midrange percentages too and has the highest FT% of all time.

[QUOTE=Axe;14936151]In the rs, maybe. But when it comes to playoff resume, it's hard to imagine considering he didn't get a finals mvp until his sixth trip to the finals.[/QUOTE]

He has no case for regular season GOAT under any normal criteria.

He certainly isn't the goat eye test wise. His accolades in the regular season are so far below other contenders.

Lebron has almost 10 more first team all NBA selections..... Twice as many MVPs. Way more longevity as a top player.


Jabbar has three times as many MVPs, 6 more first team all NBA's, goat tier longevity....

You would have to disregard accolades all together because he gets destroyed in that area.

What holds him back is his defense, if he was an all-nba defender during his prime you could make a case for him being top 5.

MJ
LeBron
Kareem
Russell

These are the Mt Rushmore, I don't see Curry having a case over any of those players. All of them have 4+ rings & 4+ MVPs. All of them except Russell were elite on both ends on the court at their peak. Russell on the other hand is by far the best defensive player in history & led a dynasty to 11 chips, that is hard to ignore.

Wilt vs Curry is an interesting debate. Wilt was the most dominant player this league has ever seen (numbers wise), but advanced stats suggest his impact wasn't as great, at least his offense. Curry to me is actually more impactful offensively if you look at the advanced numbers, but at the same time you can't ignore Wilt's huge advantage on the defensive end.

At this point I see Curry more in the Bird/Magic mold. bottom tier top 10 players who were all-time great offensively, but all 3 had question marks as defenders. Magic & Bird have more accolades over Curry in terms of MVPs & All-NBA selection while Curry has the edge in longevity over the two.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14936184]What holds him back is his defense, if he was an all-nba defender during his prime you could make a case for him being top 5.

MJ
LeBron
Kareem
Russell

These are the Mt Rushmore, I don't see Curry having a case over any of those players. All of them have 4+ rings & 4+ MVPs. All of them except Russell were elite on both ends on the court at their peak. Russell on the other hand is by far the best defensive player in history & led a dynasty to 11 chips, that is hard to ignore.

Wilt vs Curry is an interesting debate. Wilt was the most dominant player this league has ever seen (numbers wise), but advanced stats suggest his impact wasn't as great, at least his offense. Curry to me is actually more impactful offensively if you look at the advanced numbers, but at the same time you can't ignore Wilt's huge advantage on the defensive end.

At this point I see Curry more in the Bird/Magic mold. bottom tier top 10 players who were all-time great offensively, but all 3 had question marks as defenders. Magic & Bird have more accolades over Curry in terms of MVPs & All-NBA selection while Curry has the edge in longevity over the two.[/QUOTE]

If you look at advanced on/off metrics from Curry’s prime you will see he’s at worst a neutral defender, a lot of the years he’s a decent defender that is better than league average at point guard.

In his prime Curry would finish top of the league in many of these metrics even when not having all defensive team impact on that end.

You see the same thing with Jokic now, he is a +1.0 or something on defense but on offense he’s +10.0 so he still has the highest net rating in the league


So of course there’s value in a 2 way player. But a “one way player” can have just as much impact as a “2 way player”.

The opposite end of the spectrum of this analogy using Steph and Jokic is Bill Russell.

They don’t have on/off tracking data from that era but I wouldn’t be surprised if he had numbers that looked like +2.0 on offense and +8.0 on defense….So even though Russell is a one way player so to speak, he still is bringing as much impact as anyone to play the game.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14936210]If you look at advanced on/off metrics from Curry’s prime you will see he’s at worst a neutral defender, a lot of the years he’s a decent defender that is better than league average at point guard.

In his prime Curry would finish top of the league in many of these metrics even when not having all defensive team impact on that end. [/QUOTE]

You could say the same thing with the early years of Magic & Bird, especially Bird who actually made an all-defensive team early in his career. Curry was a decent defender at his peak, but because of his size, he had limitations. He got worse as he aged on defense, similar to Bird & Magic.

To me, if you want to be in the GOAT convo, you have to have a big impact on both ends of the court, unless you are this alien like player on offense who averages 40 ppg & has playmaking skills like Magic/LeBron or they have to have the defensive impact of Russell (which we won't see again because the league is so different) & win a shit ton of rings.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14936214]You could say the same thing with the early years of Magic & Bird, especially Bird who actually made an all-defensive team early in his career. Curry was a decent defender at his peak, but because of his size, he had limitations. He got worse as he aged on defense, similar to Bird & Magic.
[/quote]

Well you say because of his size, yes, but what you are missing here is for a PG he’s not necessarily undersized.

Like I said before if you go to peak years of Steph his defensive metrics are very on point with solid defenders at the point guard position.

With Bird and even Magic, they are big men…..so if you have a let’s say net neutral defender at a forward slot….its going to be more detrimental to your team’s defense than if your point guard was a mere neutral defender.

A big reason why Barkley never won even with insane offensive production is that him being a negative on D at the PF slot really hurt his teams. It’s hard to make a championship team with a PF who is a negative at Defense.

[quote]
[B]To me, if you want to be in the GOAT convo, you have to have a big impact on both ends of the court,[/B] unless you are this alien like player on offense who averages 40 ppg & has playmaking skills like Magic/LeBron or they have to have the defensive impact of Russell (which we won't see again because the league is so different) & win a shit ton of rings.[/QUOTE]

Going back to the last post. This line of logic is a logical fallacy.

If there’s a two way player who is +7 on offense and +5 on defense

And there’s a one way player who’s +12 on offense and +2 on defense



The one way player still has more impact.

[QUOTE=Carbine;14936179]He has no case for regular season GOAT under any normal criteria.

He certainly isn't the goat eye test wise. His accolades in the regular season are so far below other contenders.

Lebron has almost 10 more first team all NBA selections..... Twice as many MVPs. Way more longevity as a top player.


Jabbar has three times as many MVPs, 6 more first team all NBA's, goat tier longevity....

You would have to disregard accolades all together because he gets destroyed in that area.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, he's really lacking individual accolades when compared to those guys. That's the main caveat of being in a dynasty-fostered team.

[QUOTE=dankok8;14936026]I feel like a case can be made.

Emphasize offensive goodness, impact on the game (both small scale tactics and large scale team strategy), and ceiling raising. De-emphasize individual defense (although a positive interpretation sees him as an above average defender anyway) and lack of durability.[/QUOTE]

He is universally recognized as GOAT shooter. But he is not the GOAT player. I have watched too many games especially in the playoffs, where his shot is not falling with the same accuracy in as in the regular season. And it is typical for players who rely heavily on their 3 point shooting - for example Klay Thompson. There is a reason why Durant got the two Finals MVP instead of Steph and also not to mention Iguodala taking the MVP in 2015 instead of main man Curry. I have watched all US games in Olympics and would not have problem with Steph taking the MVP instead of LBJ just because of his shooting performance in the semis and the final game. It just happens that his shot this time start falling at the right time and he killed France in the closing minutes. But the GOAT he is not.
Curry is the face of the 3pt era and GSW dynasty (if consider them dynasty), but as a player he is inferior to Durant and Lebron - the best two players of his generation.

[QUOTE=julizaver;14936233]He is universally recognized as GOAT shooter. But he is not the GOAT player. I have watched too many games especially in the playoffs, where his shot is not falling with the same accuracy in as in the regular season. And it is typical for players who rely heavily on their 3 point shooting - for example Klay Thompson. There is a reason why Durant got the two Finals MVP instead of Steph and also not to mention Iguodala taking the MVP in 2015 instead of main man Curry. I have watched all US games in Olympics and would not have problem with Steph taking the MVP instead of LBJ just because of his shooting performance in the semis and the final game. It just happens that his shot this time start falling at the right time and he killed France in the closing minutes. But the GOAT he is not.
Curry is the face of the 3pt era and GSW dynasty (if consider them dynasty), but as a player he is inferior to Durant and Lebron - the best two players of his generation.[/QUOTE]
There's absolutely zero argments of KD being as good as Steph, let alone better than him. KD got FMVP because he was treated like Harrison Barnes in the NBA finals while averaging 35PPG. We've seen what KD looks like when teams treat him like Steph gets regularly treated in every playoff series since 2015, like Boston Nets a few years back.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14936160]No he is the GOAT shooter period.

He has great midrange percentages too and has the highest FT% of all time.[/QUOTE]
He barely shoots from midrange to even consider him great from that range. If we're talking strictly 3pt shots then it's Curry. If it's strictly 2pt shots I'll take MJ. If it's anywhere from 27ft to the rim, I'll take KD or Dirk.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14936217]If there’s a two way player who is [B]+7 on offense and +5 on defense [/B]

And there’s a one way player who’s +12 on offense and +2 on defense[/QUOTE]

That's the thing though, guys like LeBron & MJ were not just "+7 on offense" during their peak. Both of them were around +10 at their peak. And Curry for most of his career had the perfect roster around him they fit perfect with him, Klay took on the defensive assignments that Curry couldn't guard & provided more spacing for Curry, Draymond was pretty much the playmaker on the team.

Both MJ & LeBron have a higher career Offensive Box Plus/Minus than Curry with also being better defenders.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14936242]That's the thing though, guys like LeBron & MJ were not just "+7 on offense" during their peak. Both of them were around +10 at their peak. And Curry for most of his career had the perfect roster around him they fit perfect with him, Klay took on the defensive assignments that Curry couldn't guard & provided more spacing for Curry, Draymond was pretty much the playmaker on the team.

Both MJ & LeBron have a higher career Offensive Box Plus/Minus than Curry with also being better defenders.[/QUOTE]

Lebron wasn’t really boosting offenses to that level

Here is on off data from 538 from the last decade
[IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/ZYxP4trg/IMG-4058.jpg[/IMG]

Here are the numbers sorted by Total adjusted plus minus
[IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/LXKHyW5B/IMG-4059.jpg[/IMG]




You mentioned BPM. I’m personally not a fan. It’s too heavily influenced by box score and the creator of the stat has admitted himself that DPBM should not be used at all really, he never was able to work out the flaws in the stat defensively. A big reason is because it utilizes box score information so much and as we all know box score information does a very poor job at telling us what happened defensively.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14936253]Lebron wasn’t really boosting offenses to that level

Here is on off data from 538 from the last decade
[IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/ZYxP4trg/IMG-4058.jpg[/IMG]

Here are the numbers sorted by Total adjusted plus minus
[IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/LXKHyW5B/IMG-4059.jpg[/IMG]




You mentioned BPM. I’m personally not a fan. It’s too heavily influenced by box score and the creator of the stat has admitted himself that DPBM should not be used at all really, he never was able to work out the flaws in the stat defensively. A big reason is because it utilizes box score information so much and as we all know box score information does a very poor job at telling us what happened defensively.[/QUOTE]

This thing has Harden above LeBron & KD. :lol

It also only goes back to 2014, it leaves out the numbers from peak LeBron.

Would love to see LeBron's numbers in 2009 when he led an underwhelming roster to the #4 offense. Or 2013 when he was a menace all year offensively.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14936253]Lebron wasn’t really boosting offenses to that level

Here is on off data from 538 from the last decade
[IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/ZYxP4trg/IMG-4058.jpg[/IMG]

Here are the numbers sorted by Total adjusted plus minus
[IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/LXKHyW5B/IMG-4059.jpg[/IMG]




You mentioned BPM. I’m personally not a fan. It’s too heavily influenced by box score and the creator of the stat has admitted himself that DPBM should not be used at all really, he never was able to work out the flaws in the stat defensively. A big reason is because it utilizes box score information so much and as we all know box score information does a very poor job at telling us what happened defensively.[/QUOTE]


Incredible data.

And I'm not surprised at all that Curry and Jokic are at the top. Anybody with a brain can see that their impact is totally next level both in terms of individual production and, most importantly, team enhancement.

Lebron has the individual production but not the team enhancement. Which is why he ranks so much lower.

If you look at the playoff H2H records too this is validated once again. Both Curry and Jokic hold enormous W/L records vs Lebron.

It's a simpleton argument.

Lebrons TEAMS are 2-3 in playoff series against Steph's teams. That's not a big deal.

It's even more of a nothing burger when you factor in Lebron played one of those series without his #2 and #3 options and 2017 and 2018 was against possibly the best team ever assembled. No shame losing to that with one of those years having your #3 and #4 options being JR Smith and George Hill and your #2 option only doing 15 a game on 39 percent shooting. He dragged that 2018 team to the finals. Of course the best team assembled of the last almost 3 decades was going to beat that Cavs team. There was nothing Lebron could have done to win that 2018 title. Did you want him to average 45/15/10 on 65 TS? It's just a very weak argument to use this against Lebron in a Curry debate. Doesn't pass the basic logic test

[IMG]https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/g195/tontoz/(edited)_Screenshot_20220701-162940.png[/IMG]

[url]https://youtu.be/XE-BFmWb9f8?si=8ckO8L39zxzqBuxZ[/url]

You can watch for yourself. It has every Durant highlight in there of the finals. Very very very few points were scored "because" of Curry. It was Durant scoring the way he always has, whether playing in OKC or Brooklyn.

[QUOTE=Carbine;14936280][url]https://youtu.be/XE-BFmWb9f8?si=8ckO8L39zxzqBuxZ[/url]

You can watch for yourself. It has every Durant highlight in there of the finals. Very very very few points were scored "because" of Curry. It was Durant scoring the way he always has, whether playing in OKC or Brooklyn.[/QUOTE]


What you don't see is more important than what you do see in that vid. What you don't see is Durant getting doubled which happened to Curry routinely, sometimes when he didn't even have the ball. If Durant beat his man, which isn't tough for him, he got an easy look because help was slow to come or non existent.

What does curry do on defense that can be considered noteworthy whenever his opponents have the ball? I don't seem to recall any. He isn't exactly what you can call very clutch in the playoffs either.

[QUOTE=Axe;14936305]What does curry do on defense that can be considered noteworthy whenever his opponents have the ball? I don't seem to recall any. He isn't exactly what you can call very clutch in the playoffs either.[/QUOTE]

What is it with you and RRR3 copying my avatar? In your case, a smiling version.

Is it the Hot Pockets?

Oof autistic alert. :eek:

[QUOTE=Axe;14936307]Oof autistic alert. :eek:[/QUOTE]

You're better off with an avatar of a whale, or an elephant. Or hippopotamus, like CavaliersFTW currently has.