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Don't care about "resumes" or accolades at this point. Jokic is above all of that just like MJ/Lebron were. MJ was crowned best ever before his career finished. Lebron hit that same pedestal. Jokic is there too.
Kareem, MJ, Lebron, Jokic - 4 best players based on "on the court" ability.
Imo these guys are in the true GOAT tier peak
Jordan
LeBron
Kareem
Hakeem
Shaq
Wilt
Jokic
I'm not sure where I'd rank Jokic amongst these guys yet, but I agree with OP that he belongs.
*Ghost of Kobe brutally posterizes thread*
*Shaq shatters backboard*
*Bird & Magic speak volumes with only smug facial expressions*
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14984724]Duh-uh-uh-uhhh[/QUOTE]
:biggums:
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14984726]Imo these guys are in the true GOAT tier peak
Jordan
LeBron
Kareem
Hakeem
Shaq
Wilt
Jokic
I'm not sure where I'd rank Jokic amongst these guys yet, but I agree with OP that he belongs.[/QUOTE]
Get Hakeem out of there bro. The others are fine.
Jokic has had the least amount of help by quite a bit out of these players, and it's magnified even more by him playing the the modern era where teams have a lot more flexibility to improve their rosters.
[QUOTE=RRR3;14984729]:biggums:[/QUOTE]
You can't make an argument for anyone besides Kareem/MJ/Lebron to be ahead of peak Jokic. This isn't a short peak either, we are on 5 years of absurd dominance. Jokic simply has had WAY less help than Kareem/MJ/Lebron, which isn't debatable.
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14984732][B]Get Hakeem out of there bro.[/B] The others are fine.
Jokic has had the least amount of help by quite a bit out of these players, and it's magnified even more by him playing the the modern era where teams have a lot more flexibility to improve their rosters.[/QUOTE]
:biggums:
Nah I really think he's the GOAT. I want to see him play with a superstar sidekick though. Every other great player nowadays and even in the past got to play on loaded teams. Imagine if Jokic got to play with prime Penny, Kobe, and Wade like Shaq did instead of just jamal Murray whose a pipsqueak version of those guys. It would be an avalanche for Yolk.
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14984734]D-uh-uh-uh-uh-uhhh-uhhh[/QUOTE]
:lol
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14984736]:biggums:[/QUOTE]
OP thinks defense doesn't exist :roll:
[QUOTE=BarberSchool;14984728]*Ghost of Kobe brutally posterizes thread*
*Shaq shatters backboard*
*Bird & Magic speak volumes with only smug facial expressions*[/QUOTE]
To be fair jokic is basically a bigger rich man's Bird. Much bigger too.
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14984726]Imo these guys are in the true GOAT tier peak
Jordan
LeBron
Kareem
Hakeem
Shaq
Wilt
Jokic
I'm not sure where I'd rank Jokic amongst these guys yet, but I agree with OP that he belongs.[/QUOTE]
Why would Magic and Bird not be on this list lol. Or Curry.
Olajuwon vs Jokic is a debate. People on this site don't care about defense so I world expect opinion to go for Jokic but Olajuwon was one of the greatest defensive players of all time along with being a great offensive player.
Prisoners of moments
[QUOTE=GOBB;14984751]Prisoners of moments[/QUOTE]
That's every OP thread. Straight up clickbait, the ****ing buzzfeed of ISH.
[QUOTE=GOBB;14984751]Prisoners of moments[/QUOTE]
Five years of peak MJ/Lebron play is me being a "prisoner of the moment"? :biggums:
Jokic is literally a BETTER/BIGGER version of Larry Bird.
Magic -> Lebron
Bird -> Jokic
This is the evolution of two players widely considered top 10 all time, so of course Lebron/Jokic will rank higher.
Exact numerical rankings are frankly dumb. Separating guys to that fine a degree "hes first, and hes second, and hes third" is so subjective and arbitrary and erroneous. When youre talking about guys within the same general tier, what separates them is mainly just the circumstance they were in. Luck, team fit, era, and so on.
That said, Jokic is clearly up there as a player with anyone. Ive already said this for a couple years, you can put him in the category of best players ever alongside anyone else in it. If youre really perspicacious, you can see it pretty easily. Youre not scared to say something before it's acceptable.
People who wanna stick with generic formulas approved by "Wake Up With Mike Greenberg!" will say [i]he needs to do this or that still[/i] which has nothing to do with his ability as a player, and they will obviously wait until the media says it's okay to rank him here or there, and then theyll do it. Thats the big bulk of standard humanity. Wait for the group to move first, then dutifully follow/agree.
And there theres guys like highwhey, rrr3 and gobb who are resentful and emotional about Jokic for personal reasons, and their view of him will be artificially diminished by the hurt they feel when Jokic succeeds.
So everyone has their place.
[QUOTE=Neal Romer;14984763]Exact numerical rankings are frankly dumb. Separating guys to that fine a degree "hes first, and hes second, and hes third" is so subjective and arbitrary and erroneous. When youre talking about guys within the same general tier, what separates them is mainly just the circumstance they were in. Luck, team fit, era, and so on.
That said, Jokic is clearly up there as a player with anyone. Ive already said this for a couple years, you can put him in the category of best players ever alongside anyone else in it. If youre really perspicacious, you can see it pretty easily. Youre not scared to say something before it's acceptable.
People who wanna stick with generic formulas approved by "Wake Up With Mike Greenberg!" will say [i]he needs to do this or that still[/i] which has nothing to do with his ability as a player, and they will obviously wait until the media says it's okay to rank him here or there, and then theyll do it. Thats the big bulk of standard humanity. Wait for the group to move first, then dutifully follow/agree.
And there theres guys like highwhey, rrr3 and gobb who are resentful and emotional about Jokic for personal reasons, and their view of him will be artificially diminished by the hurt they feel when Jokic succeeds.
So everyone has their place.[/QUOTE]
Fine let's rephrase from Jokic is "4th best" to Jokic is a top 4 player of all time (so any order you want then).
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14984764]Fine let's rephrase from Jokic is "4th best" to Jokic is a top 4 player of all time (so any order you want then).[/QUOTE]
As long as you got Lebron at #1, you can put whoever else you want wherever else you want ;)
[QUOTE=Neal Romer;14984763]Exact numerical rankings are frankly dumb. Separating guys to that fine a degree "hes first, and hes second, and hes third" is so subjective and arbitrary and erroneous. When youre talking about guys within the same general tier, what separates them is mainly just the circumstance they were in. Luck, team fit, era, and so on.
That said, Jokic is clearly up there as a player with anyone. Ive already said this for a couple years, you can put him in the category of best players ever alongside anyone else in it. If youre really perspicacious, you can see it pretty easily. Youre not scared to say something before it's acceptable.
People who wanna stick with generic formulas approved by "Wake Up With Mike Greenberg!" will say [i]he needs to do this or that still[/i] which has nothing to do with his ability as a player, and they will obviously wait until the media says it's okay to rank him here or there, and then theyll do it. Thats the big bulk of standard humanity. Wait for the group to move first, then dutifully follow/agree.
[B]And there theres guys like highwhey, rrr3 and gobb who are resentful and emotional about Jokic for personal reasons, and their view of him will be artificially diminished by the hurt they feel when Jokic succeeds.[/B]
So everyone has their place.[/QUOTE]
:lol
That was put very nicely.
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14984762]Five years of peak MJ/Lebron play is me being a "prisoner of the moment"? :biggums:
Jokic is literally a BETTER/BIGGER version of Larry Bird.
Magic -> Lebron
Bird -> Jokic
This is the evolution of two players widely considered top 10 all time, so of course Lebron/Jokic will rank higher.[/QUOTE]
Bird played defense.
[QUOTE=RRR3;14984775]Bird played defense.[/QUOTE]
Jokic is top 5 in steals. How do you steal the ball without playing defense?
Also... [I]youre[/I] [I]RRR3[/I].
How autistic do you have to be to constantly try and rank players in a team sport?
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14984724[B]]Don't care about "resumes" or accolades at this point. [/B]Jokic is above all of that just like MJ/Lebron were. MJ was crowned best ever before his career finished. Lebron hit that same pedestal. Jokic is there too.
Kareem, MJ, Lebron, Jokic - 4 best players based on "on the court" ability.[/QUOTE]
He's no slouch in that dept either. 3 MVPs, 1 ring w/FVP before he turned 30. I think there is too much parity in the 20's for someone to win 4-5 rings this decade( especially since half of it is over) and he's probably gonna get robbed of a few MVPs for 'reasons'. But strictly as far as individual offensive ability and its effect to lift a team, we all see what we're seeing.
Damn the 4th best player ever and he's only going to end up with 1 championship. The 4th best player ever yet he gets outplayed in his own era by Joel Embiid H2H. 4th best player ever yet the ball is in Jamal Murray's hands when the game is on the line in the playoffs.
Hakeem B2B champ (Considered by many as the greatest defensive center of all time)
Tim Duncan Dynasty starter (Greatest PF ever)
Shaq Dynastic Center (considered by many to be the most dominant player and if there was an all time draft he would be in the running to be picked #1 with Michael Jordan and LeBron James)
nikola jokc 1 nba championship (jamal murray averaged 26 points and was a 50/40/90 guy during the entire playoff run)
Jokic is better than a guy who averaged 24/17/5 and 5 blocks per game in the finals. lol you jokic stans disgust me....one championship top 4.....you are lucky im not a mod
[QUOTE=Mask the Embiid;14984796]Damn the 4th best player ever and he's only going to end up with 1 championship. The 4th best player ever yet he gets outplayed in his own era by Joel Embiid H2H. 4th best player ever yet the ball is in Jamal Murray's hands when the game is on the line in the playoffs.
Hakeem B2B champ (Considered by many as the great defensive center of all time)
Tim Duncan Dynasty starter (Greatest PF ever)
Shaq Dynastic Center (considered by many to be the most dominant player and if there was an all time draft he would be in the running to be pick #1 with Michael Jordan and LeBron James)
nikola jokc 1 nba championship (jamal murray averaged 26 points and was a 50/40/90 guy during the entire playoff run)[/QUOTE]
[IMG]https://media0.giphy.com/media/kkEm7G8KUezK/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b9527ol3hxpd6of8gjbqnpoztmosq6k4nt4r98hz71y9&ep=v1_internal_gif_by_id&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Mask the Embiid;14984796]Damn the 4th best player ever and he's only going to end up with 1 championship. The 4th best player ever yet he gets outplayed in his own era by Joel Embiid H2H. 4th best player ever yet the ball is in Jamal Murray's hands when the game is on the line in the playoffs.
Hakeem B2B champ (Considered by many as the great defensive center of all time)
Tim Duncan Dynasty starter (Greatest PF ever)
Shaq Dynastic Center (considered by many to be the most dominant player and if there was an all time draft he would be in the running to be pick #1 with Michael Jordan and LeBron James)
nikola jokc 1 nba championship (jamal murray averaged 26 points and was a 50/40/90 guy during the entire playoff run)[/QUOTE]
Imagine if you replaced Jamal Murray with prime Jimmy Butler. Embiid lost in the 2nd round with that and multiple other All Star talents. Tyrese Maxey is basically Jamal Murray and Embiid is 1st round or lotto with that help proven while Jokic is Champion.
4th best player ever yet he got knocked out of the playoffs in his peak by a 22-year-old Ant man in a game 7 while at home....4th best ever!
[QUOTE=Mask the Embiid;14984801]4th best player ever yet he got knocked out of the playoffs in his peak by a 22-year-old Ant man in a game 7 while at home....4th best ever![/QUOTE]
1 - Basketball is a team sport
2 - You're anti white
[QUOTE=Mask the Embiid;14984801]4th best player ever yet he got knocked out of the playoffs in his peak by a 22-year-old Ant man in a game 7 while at home....4th best ever![/QUOTE]
Embiid got knocked out of the playoffs in his peak by a 22-year-old Trae in a game 7 while at home.
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14984804]Embiid got knocked out of the playoffs in his peak by a 22-year-old Trae in a game 7 while at home.[/QUOTE]
Who is claiming Embiid is top 4 though? Jokic fans are going totally overboard for a guy who's godawful at defense.
How the **** did Minnesota win that Game 7 with Antman scoring only 16 points on 24 shots.
He shot 25% from the field and 20% from 3. 32 TS%. Absolute disaster.
:biggums:
How did the Wolves win that game? I admittedly didn't watch it.
jokic plays negative defense, a lot of the assists he got last night weren't legit ones either, player took multiple dribbles or made their own shot, it was home treatment.
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14984804]Embiid got knocked out of the playoffs in his peak by a 22-year-old Trae in a game 7 while at home.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, Mask's criteria isnt really doing his guy any favors. If Jokic isnt all time great for not having x amount of this or that... then Embiid must be literally the worst all star level center to ever play.
It's just a game they cant win. When you keep rooting for a losing cause, you will keep taking L's. Rooting against Jokic is like rooting against Lebron. Be prepared for a lot of bitterness. Theyre gonna keep succeeding, while your existence is going to be pain.
[QUOTE=Keno;14984808]jokic plays negative defense, a lot of the assists he got last night weren't legit ones either, player took multiple dribbles or made their own shot, it was home treatment.[/QUOTE]
I agree they probably werent all valid assists. The record really doesnt matter. But anyone who cant see how impactful a player Jokic is, is probably trying not to look.
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14984732]Get Hakeem out of there bro. The others are fine.
Jokic has had the least amount of help by quite a bit out of these players, and it's magnified even more by him playing the the modern era where teams have a lot more flexibility to improve their rosters.[/QUOTE]
Jokic is great but you're smoking dope with Hakeem lol. Hakeem had elite 2 way impact on a game. Joker for all his offensive brilliance would be some ways down the list of the goat centers defensively. As far as him being the 4th best ever? On my list a guy that isn't a great defender at some point cant get past 5. I can't see a route to rate guys with relatively one way impact above 2 way all timers. Magic, Curry, Bird, and Joker fit this category for me personally.
[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;14984816]Jokic is great but you're smoking dope with Hakeem lol. Hakeem had elite 2 way impact on a game. Joker for all his offensive brilliance would be some ways down the list of the goat centers defensively. As far as him being the 4th best ever? On my list a guy that isn't a great defender at some point cant get past 5. I can't see a route to rate guys with relatively one way impact above 2 way all timers. Magic, Curry, Bird, and Joker fit this category for me personally.[/QUOTE]
Jokic makes up for his lack of defense with his passing and shooting. Just like Jokic could never dream of having the defensive impact of Hakeem, Hakeem could never dream of dropping 20+ dimes in a game or averaging 10+ in general. Past that scoring and rebounding are similar for them. So it evens out. Both all time great peaks.
Is this due to the game he had last night? If so, Wilt did this routinely.
There's a game Wilt apparently had 53 points; 32 rebounds; 24 blocks; 14 assist and 11 steals.
[QUOTE=tpols;14984817]Jokic makes up for his lack of defense with his passing and shooting. Just like Jokic could never dream of having the defensive impact of Hakeem, Hakeem could never dream of dropping 20+ dimes in a game or averaging 10+ in general. Past that scoring and rebounding are similar for them. So it evens out. Both all time great peaks.[/QUOTE] You are saying that one aspect of offense is just as important as the whole category of defense when defense is half the game. Prime example of how the importance of defense is underrated. Should Olajuwon get extra credit for averaging several more blocks or is that just one aspect of defense?
[QUOTE=tpols;14984817]Jokic makes up for his lack of defense with his passing and shooting. Just like Jokic could never dream of having the defensive impact of Hakeem, Hakeem could never dream of dropping 20+ dimes in a game or averaging 10+ in general. Past that scoring and rebounding are similar for them. So it evens out. Both all time great peaks.[/QUOTE]
Was a different game, centers weren't playing in the same spots on the court. But Hakeem was a one man no fly zone on the defensive end while being the go to guy on offense. No 90s center was gonna consistently get 10 dimes with the style of play back then. That said, watching the mid 90s Rockets Olajuwon created all the outside looks for the team just by being a truck load down low and in the mid post. His passing was pretty good for a big but the archetypes for position weren't going to allow him to play anything like Joker lol. However, there's nothing keeping Joker from playing like him defensively aside from ability lol.