1. Bill Russell
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. David Robinson
4. Dikembe Mutombo
5. Tim Duncan
6. Kevin Garnett
7. Ben Wallace
8. Draymond Green
9. Dwight Howard
10. Nate Thurmond
HM: Wilt, Gobert, Pippen, Ewing (overshadowed by Hakeem & Robinson)
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1. Bill Russell
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. David Robinson
4. Dikembe Mutombo
5. Tim Duncan
6. Kevin Garnett
7. Ben Wallace
8. Draymond Green
9. Dwight Howard
10. Nate Thurmond
HM: Wilt, Gobert, Pippen, Ewing (overshadowed by Hakeem & Robinson)
My slight nitpicks
I would've probably added Wilt to the list, but I understand all these guys have legitimate claims to make it
I would've probably put Duncan & KG ahead of Dikembe, but if you have data to support otherwise I'd love to see it
Rodman would have at least been an HM
Leaving off a 4 time dpoty :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15018289]1. Bill Russell
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. David Robinson
4. Dikembe Mutombo
5. Tim Duncan
6. Kevin Garnett
7. Ben Wallace
8. Draymond Green
9. Dwight Howard
10. Nate Thurmond
HM: Wilt, Gobert, Pippen, Ewing (overshadowed by Hakeem & Robinson)[/QUOTE]
Impact as far as what? KG is here but not Wilt, explain.
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15018293]My slight nitpicks
I would've probably added Wilt to the list, but I understand all these guys have legitimate claims to make it
I would've probably put Duncan & KG ahead of Dikembe, but if you have data to support otherwise I'd love to see it
Rodman would have at least been an HM[/QUOTE]
I have a hard time ranking Wilt defensively. I tried to take defensive longevity into consideration in these rankings and Wilt in particular didn't peak until the 2nd half of his career on that end, even then there are some things I question about that time frame.
- Lakers didn't see much improvement on the defensive end when they added him in 1969.
- Lakers had a top 4 defense in 1970 with Wilt only playing 12 games that season
- Lakers had an average defense in 1971 with Wilt playing 82 games
Just some inconsistencies that make me question if he deserves top 10.
Someone like Dwight Howard at his defensive peak was leading a below average cast defensively to a top 1-3 on defense for 3 straight years.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15018309]I have a hard time ranking Wilt defensively. I tried to take defensive longevity into consideration in these rankings and Wilt in particular didn't peak until the 2nd half of his career on that end, even then there are some things I question about that time frame. Lakers didn't see much improvement on the defensive end when they added him in 1969.
- Lakers had a top 4 defense in 1970 with Wilt only playing 12 games that season
- Lakers had an average defense in 1971 with Wilt playing 82 games
Just some inconsistencies that make me question if he deserves top 10.
Someone like Dwight Howard at his defensive peak was leading a below average cast defensively to a top 1-3 on defense for 3 straight years.[/QUOTE]
Every player is the 60s and 70s states Wilt was the strongest and blocked like 10+ shots a game on top of 30 rebounds.
What other information do you need, a stat from basketball reference?
Not surprised that its pretty much a big-only exclusive list. defensive wings are overrated unless you're capable of guarding 5 out which most wings/guards cannot. rodman and lebron come to mind as far as being able to guard pretty much anyone. also another reason why some chips are more valuable than others...you think luka makes the finals without lively? hell nah. shai without chet? FVCK no, wouldn't make it past nuggets without caruso even. the list goes on. but then there's lebronzo, didn't need no defensive anchor, he was an independent man [IMG]https://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/5I5s8.png[/IMG]
[QUOTE=L.Kizzle;15018310]Every player is the 60s and 70s states Wilt was the strongest and blocked like 10+ shots a game on top of 30 rebounds.
[B]What other information do you need,[/B] a stat from basketball reference?[/QUOTE]
Where the team ranks on the defensive end is usually a good indicator of how impactful they are. Wilt doesn't cut it for me, but I don't have an issue with anyone having him top 10.
I know that is not the perfect system. Mutombo played on some bad defensive teams, until you dig deeper on how impactful he was.
'91 Nuggets: #27 ranked defense (Dead last)
'92 Nuggets: #13. With rookie Mutombo.
'96 Nuggets: #17 defense
'97 Nuggets: #24 defense (No Mutombo). Nuggets replaced him with a good defensive player, Ervin Johnson, who was #3 in blocks that season. Still a noticeable drop off.
'96 Hawks: #16 defense
'97 Hawks: #3 defense (With Mutombo)
[QUOTE=L.Kizzle;15018310]Every player is the 60s and 70s states Wilt was the strongest and blocked like 10+ shots a game on top of 30 rebounds.
What other information do you need, a stat from basketball reference?[/QUOTE]
Definitely. Players exaggerate hard from their era.
Here is Shumpert talking about a random Kobe game:
[video=youtube;rvuaGxOVXyo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvuaGxOVXyo&lc=Ugz07jvDc-ebsG7mKuN4AaABAg&ab_channel=CBSSports[/video]
This is that game:
[IMG]https://i.gyazo.com/217c02608ed26c6f93cc11fc45988e2b.png[/IMG]
11/29, lost by 7, game was never even ****ing close in the 4th quarter. Even in said 4th quarter Kobe was a measy 5/12.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15018313]Where the team ranks on the defensive end is usually a good indicator of how impactful they are. Wilt doesn't cut it for me, but I don't have an issue with anyone having him top 10.
I know that is not the perfect system. Mutombo played on some bad defensive teams, until you dig deeper on how impactful he was.
'91 Nuggets: #27 ranked defense (Dead last)
'92 Nuggets: #13. With rookie Mutombo.
'96 Nuggets: #17 defense
'97 Nuggets: #24 defense (No Mutombo). Nuggets replaced him with a good defensive player, Ervin Johnson, who was #3 in blocks that season. Still a noticeable drop off.
'96 Hawks: #16 defense
'97 Hawks: #3 defense (With Mutombo)[/QUOTE]
Blocks and steals dont mean someone is a good defender
[QUOTE=Xiao Yao You;15018317]Blocks and steals dont mean someone is a good defender[/QUOTE]
Getting hunted and cooked off the floor when playoffs come around does?
:lol
[QUOTE=Xiao Yao You;15018317]Blocks and steals dont mean someone is a good defender[/QUOTE]
For steals? I agree. I think blocks are a better indicator even though there are inconsistencies.
Johnson led the Nuggets in defensive rating in '97 which means he was most likely their most impactful defender.
[QUOTE=warriorfan;15018318]Getting hunted and cooked off the floor when playoffs come around does?
:lol[/QUOTE]
Cant skip me!
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15018320]For steals? I agree. I think blocks are a better indicator even though there are inconsistencies.
Johnson led the Nuggets in defensive rating in '97 which means he was most likely their most impactful defender.[/QUOTE]
Im reminded often that drtg means nothing. Supposedly gobert is the reason wolves lost despite leading in ofrtg and drtg. Whiteside blocked shots. A bum. Kessler blocks shots. Jazz worst d in league past 2 years
[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater;15018316]Definitely. Players exaggerate hard from their era.
Here is Shumpert talking about a random Kobe game:
[video=youtube;rvuaGxOVXyo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvuaGxOVXyo&lc=Ugz07jvDc-ebsG7mKuN4AaABAg&ab_channel=CBSSports[/video]
This is that game:
[IMG]https://i.gyazo.com/217c02608ed26c6f93cc11fc45988e2b.png[/IMG]
11/29, lost by 7, game was never even ****ing close in the 4th quarter. Even in said 4th quarter Kobe was a measy 5/12.[/QUOTE]
We can go back and watch this game, not Wilt. And it's freaking Iman Shumpert. These Wilt stories are from Hall of Famers.
[QUOTE=Xiao Yao You;15018317]Blocks and steals dont mean someone is a good defender[/QUOTE]
If you're leading in these categories it's usually an indication of effort and hustle.
The guys who were usually at the top of the league in steals (Jordan, Pippen, Payton, Stockton, Mookie) were all known for being absolute pests on defense. The guys who led in blocks (Dream, Admiral, Mutumbo) were all elite interior guys.
Not a coincidence.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15018309]I have a hard time ranking Wilt defensively. I tried to take defensive longevity into consideration in these rankings and Wilt in particular didn't peak until the 2nd half of his career on that end, even then there are some things I question about that time frame.
- Lakers didn't see much improvement on the defensive end when they added him in 1969.
- Lakers had a top 4 defense in 1970 with Wilt only playing 12 games that season
- Lakers had an average defense in 1971 with Wilt playing 82 games
Just some inconsistencies that make me question if he deserves top 10.
Someone like Dwight Howard at his defensive peak was leading a below average cast defensively to a top 1-3 on defense for 3 straight years.[/QUOTE]I just checked his team's defensive rankings. Warriors and Sixers were usually 2nd (behind Boston) a few 3rd and even had a 1st place defensive ratings. He was hurt the majority of his Laker career.
[QUOTE=Baller234;15018325]If you're leading in these categories it's usually an indication of effort and hustle.
The guys who were usually at the top of the league in steals (Jordan, Pippen, Payton, Stockton, Mookie) were all known for being absolute pests on defense. The guys who led in blocks (Dream, Admiral, Mutumbo) were all elite interior guys.
Not a coincidence.[/QUOTE]
Getting steals could be playing in passing lanes and gambling while giving up many buckets. Guys that try to block everything arent in position to secure rebounds and give up east put backs. rubio got steals playing behind his man hoping gobert would cover for him if he failed
[QUOTE=L.Kizzle;15018323]We can go back and watch this game, not Wilt. [B]And it's freaking Iman Shumpert. These Wilt stories are from Hall of Famers.[/B][/QUOTE]
I didn't realize people who make the hall of fame are usually better people who don't exaggerate. :oldlol:
[QUOTE=L.Kizzle;15018327]I just checked his team's defensive rankings[B]. Warriors and Sixers were usually 2nd (behind Boston)[/B] a few 3rd and even had a 1st place defensive ratings. He was hurt the majority of his Laker career.[/QUOTE]
Lie.
1961: #3
1962: #3
1963: #5
Keep in mind this is in a 8-9 team league. So it's not the same as being #3 in today's league out of 29 teams.
In 1962 for example, when ranked #3, the Warriors had a 92.4 DRTG when the league average was 93.3. They were not too far off league average.
[QUOTE=L.Kizzle;15018323][B]We can go back and watch this game, not Wilt[/B]. And it's freaking Iman Shumpert. These Wilt stories are from Hall of Famers.[/QUOTE]
Your point being?
[QUOTE=L.Kizzle;15018323]And it's freaking Iman Shumpert. These Wilt stories are from Hall of Famers.[/QUOTE]
So what?
L.Kizzle, weren't you supposed to make this project during the offseason?
[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?521883-New-Topic-Projects-For-The-Offseason[/url]
To put Dray above Pat Ewing and Wilt Chamberlain is pure lunacy.
[QUOTE=tpols;15018338]To put Dray above Pat Ewing and Wilt Chamberlain is pure lunacy.[/QUOTE]
And saying Siakam > Giannis isn't.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15018332]Lie.
1961: #3
1962: #3
1963: #5
Keep in mind this is in a 8-9 team league. So it's not the same as being #3 in today's league out of 29 teams.
In 1962 for example, when ranked #3, the Warriors had a 92.4 DRTG when the league average was 93.3. They were not too far off league average.[/QUOTE]
You have Garnett at like 5 and his Minnesota teams were below average.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15018337]L.Kizzle, weren't you supposed to make this project during the offseason?
[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?521883-New-Topic-Projects-For-The-Offseason[/url][/QUOTE]
Which topic should we roll with?
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15018340]And saying Siakam > Giannis isn't.[/QUOTE]
Its even more absurd than that. You didn't even mention Dennis Rodman either. This a clown thread. :lol
2007 Wolves: #21 defense
2008 Wolves (Without KG): #27 defense. Wolves saw their DRTG increase more than +3.
2007 Celtics: #16 defense
2008 Celtics with KG: #1. Historically dominant too.
[QUOTE=L.Kizzle;15018344]Which topic should we roll with?[/QUOTE]
I'm cool with this one or peaks.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15018346]2007 Wolves: #21 defense
2008 Wolves (Without KG): #27 defense. Wolves saw their DRTG increase more than +3.
2007 Celtics: #16 defense
2008 Celtics with KG: #1. Historically dominant too.[/QUOTE]
KG replaced Ryan Gomes.
Rondo in his second year got a significantly bigger role. No more Telfair.
Ray Allen was playing instead of Delonte West.
Perk played a lot more minutes at C instead of Al Jefferson.
KG was the anchor of the defense obviously but the 2008 team was very different from the 2007.
[QUOTE=warriorfan;15018348]KG replaced Ryan Gomes.
Rondo in his second year got a significantly bigger role. No more Telfair.
Ray Allen was playing instead of Delonte West.
Perk played a lot more minutes at C instead of Al Jefferson.
KG was the anchor of the defense obviously but the 2008 team was very different from the 2007.[/QUOTE]
Rondo was far from his prime & since when was Allen a defensive stopper?
2013 Celtics: #7 on defense
2014 Celtics: #18 (No KG)
This is old man KG btw.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15018349]Rondo was far from his prime & since when was Allen a defensive stopper?
2013 Celtics: #7 on defense
2014 Celtics: #18 (No KG)
This is old man KG btw.[/QUOTE]
The team was obviously a lot better in 2008 for many reasons.
Rondo >Telfair
Allen isn’t a known stopper but he isn’t a slouch and a much higher iq and better player than Delonte West
A competitive team will naturally have better defense. Correlation doesn’t equal causation.
2007 Celtics were basically a 60 loss team. In tons of those games it becomes a blow out and it’s not a competitive game.
KG obviously is a huge factor but you are lumping all these other factors in and crediting it all to KG, which is inaccurate.
[QUOTE=warriorfan;15018354]The team was obviously a lot better in 2008 for many reasons.
Rondo >Telfair
Allen isn’t a known stopper but he isn’t a slouch and a much higher iq and better player than Delonte West
A competitive team will naturally have better defense. Correlation doesn’t equal causation.
2007 Celtics were basically a 60 loss team. In tons of those games it becomes a blow out and it’s not a competitive game.[/QUOTE]
I agree with Rondo/Perkins getting more playing time it contributed to them being better on defense, I just find it odd how you mention Ray Allen as some plus defensively over Delonte West, when West was always known as a plus defender. Allen wasn't some upgrade over him on defense.
Even then, Perkins only played a few more minutes per game in 2008 compared to 2007 for Boston.
With what you said, the only real difference was Rondo and of course KG. And Rondo was still green. (no pun)
You could have gone with the Tony Allen route, who played more games in 2008, but instead went with Ray Allen. :lol
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15018359]Even then, Perkins only played a few more minutes per game in 2008 compared to 2007 for Boston.
With what you said, the only real difference was Rondo and of course KG. And Rondo was still green. (no pun)
You could have gone with the Tony Allen route, who played more games in 2008, but instead went with Ray Allen. :lol[/QUOTE]
You are low iq and don’t understand how offense influences defense.
Wemby should be on there if it's just about impact
[QUOTE=Carbine;15018386]Wemby should be on there if it's just about impact[/QUOTE]
Than you would have to put walton if we are going on limited games
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15018289]1. Bill Russell
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. David Robinson
4. Dikembe Mutombo
5. Tim Duncan
6. Kevin Garnett
7. Ben Wallace
8. Draymond Green
9. Dwight Howard
10. Nate Thurmond
HM: Wilt, Gobert, Pippen, Ewing (overshadowed by Hakeem & Robinson)[/QUOTE]
How did Green make the list over Pippen?
135 games of Bill Russell data where he avg 8.1 blocks
112 games of Wilt Chamberlain data where he avg 8.8 blocks.
Wilt one blocked Walt Bellamys first 9 shots because "he wanted to."
This would be like Hakeem blocking Alonzo Mourning first 9 shots because he wanted to.
Old Laker career blocked Kareems sky-hook twice in a row.
Go head and add Wilt Chamberlain bruh and stop playing.
[QUOTE=L.Kizzle;15018405]135 games of Bill Russell data where he avg 8.1 blocks
112 games of Wilt Chamberlain data where he avg 8.8 blocks.
Wilt one blocked Walt Bellamys first 9 shots because "he wanted to."
This would be like Hakeem blocking Alonzo Mourning first 9 shots because he wanted to.
Old Laker career blocked Kareems sky-hook twice in a row.
Go head and add Wilt Chamberlain bruh and stop playing.[/QUOTE]
Wilt is probably the most disrespected GOAT.
The guy was literally 7 foot black superman. And scrubs get placed ahead of him. :facepalm