+2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not lebron

.
[U]Regular Season[/U]

[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html]Hornacek[/url]'.... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html]Klay[/url]............ 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts


[U]Playoffs[/U]

[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html]Hornacek[/url]'.... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html]Klay[/url]............ 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts


the CONSENSUS was that the 15' Warriors weren't a good roster, such as +2800 preseason odds and a lower producer than Hornacek at 2nd option.. So the 67 and 73 wins means that Curry did a goat thing, not Lebron.. Lebron doesn't deserve props for beating a 1-man team with the only "big 3" super-team in the league and the preseason favorite.

Lebron also had unprecedented help with a 2nd option outplaying the MVP - that's like Mathurin outplaying SGA or Pippen outplaying MVP Barkley - it's impossible to lose in this scenario. yet Lebron needed 7 games because he wet the bed through 4 games (24 and 6 TO's).. So Lebron shouldn't get MORE credit for coming back, since a dominant performance or knockout is better than having to get off the canvas and basically get lucky.

Hornacek isn't close to Klay man stfu.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;15020682]Hornacek isn't close to Klay man stfu.[/QUOTE]


Not according to PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, FTA, or APG

Btw, weaker scorers like Klay or Pippen can't be franchise players because teams led by them lack capacity to add talent, i.e. any decent scorer will surpass them as 1st option.. Accordingly, franchise players are reserved for dominant producers like Love, KAT, or AD, and their obvious dominance means that they don't need playoff success to make All-NBA...

Otoh, secondary producers like Klay or Pippen needed titles to make All-NBA, similar to Manu, Parker, Pau, Dumars or Worthy - they needed winning spotlight to be seen as All-NBA.. And no one got more winning spotlight than Pippen - he never played above a Larry Nance or Iguodala caliber, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade - he's simply the most overrated player ever.

Good thread

Sthot never saw Hornacek so his opinion is immediately discarded

PER doesn't take into account defense, and Klay was one of the best man defenders in the league during his prime.

I like Hornacek though, underrated playmaker, but Utah Hornacek doesn't come close to the player prime Klay was.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15020747]PER doesn't take into account defense, and Klay was one of the best man defenders in the league during his prime.

I like Hornacek though, underrated playmaker, but Utah Hornacek doesn't come close to the player prime Klay was.[/QUOTE]

Klay Thompson is the most overrated defender in the modern era.

He was decent but he was no where near some lock down elite perimeter guy.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15020754]Klay Thompson is the most overrated defender in the modern era.

He was decent but he was no where near some lock down elite perimeter guy.[/QUOTE]

Disagree, his man defense in particular was top notch. In particular, I remember him playing stick glue defense on every one of his assignments during the '17 postseason.

Where you could give Klay shit is the other aspects of his defense, in particular off ball, team/help defense. He wasn't particularly great in those areas which limited his defensive impact (it shows in the advanced stats).

But as a man defender, I've never seen a pure shooter as good as Klay.

Got some data to back up your stuff? Or is this just a “trust me bro”

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;15020682]Hornacek isn't close to Klay man stfu.[/QUOTE]

Actually the playoff data says Hornacek was slightly better over signifigant sample size. Welcome to reality.

Hornacek and John Stockton averaged 10 ppg and 9.7 ppg in the 1998 NBA finals. The 2020 miami heat have out of their 5 players averaged more points than Hornacek and Stockton. Jordan had terrible competition in the 1990's.

No question Curry is the best player of his generation.

Curry is everything that Bronie fans wish Lebron was, and is not.

[QUOTE=tpols;15020778]Actually the playoff data says Hornacek was slightly better over signifigant sample size. Welcome to reality.[/QUOTE]

So the end all be all criteria of "[B]scoring .matters most" [/B].....[B]"uh uh eye test"[/B]....[B]"uhh uhh rangz"[/B] goes out the window depending on which way we want to bend? Because I guarantee Klay annihilates Hornacek as a scorer without looking at a single stat. And as a defender? Kinda laughable comparison and that's not to say Jeff was some pushover, he was a very good player but Klay was a borderline great player even if we're being modest. Amd i actively disliked both players but by the standards the actors in this thread use in other threads, there's no way to have this conversation and put Jeff anywhere near Klay.

[QUOTE=Full Court;15020780]No question Curry is the best player of his generation.

Curry is everything that Bronie fans wish Lebron was, and is not.[/QUOTE]

Nope
4x NBA MVP 4x finals mvp is better than 1 NBA finals mvp and 2 finals MVP.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;15020785]So the end all be all criteria of "[B]scoring .matters most" [/B].....[B]"uh uh eye test"[/B]....[B]"uhh uhh rangz"[/B] goes out the window depending on which way we want to bend? Because I guarantee Klay annihilates Hornacek as a scorer without looking at a single stat. And as a defender? Kinda laughable comparison and that's not to say Jeff was some pushover, he was a very good player but Klay was a borderline great player even if we're being modest. Amd i actively disliked both players but by the standards the actors in this thread use in other threads, there's no way to have this conversation and put Jeff anywhere near Klay.[/QUOTE]

No its not just scoring. Jeff was better in almost every advanced stat. Way better playmaker and dynamic offensive player while also shooting more efficiently than Klay. Klay is a better defender which lessens the gap but perhaps not by enough to overtake him. Hornacek was an above average defender as well and Klays defense is vastly overrated. He was a basic man defender with average help defense and defensive rebounding. Even then he wasnt even the best man defender on his own team. That would be iggy or dray.

So what youre saying doesn't make sense. Its impossible for somebody to beat you in every advanced stat and you're not even close to them. Doesn't add up.

If we're talking prime for prime, I'd probably disagree, but you could make a valid argument for Hornacek. But if we're talking the Utah version, absolutely indefensibly stupid to claim that version of Hornacek is better than peak Klay.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15020776]Got some data to back up your stuff? Or is this just a “trust me bro”[/QUOTE]

[video=youtube;y589G84w03E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y589G84w03E[/video]

[QUOTE=tpols;15020789]No its not just scoring. Jeff was better in almost every advanced stat. Way better playmaker and dynamic offensive player while also shooting more efficiently than Klay. Klay is a better defender which lessens the gap but perhaps not by enough to overtake him. Hornacek was an above average defender as well and Klays defense is vastly overrated. He was a basic man defender with average help defense and defensive rebounding. Even then he wasnt even the best man defender on his own team. That would be iggy or dray.

So what youre saying doesn't make sense. Its impossible for somebody to beat you in every advanced stat and you're not even close to them. Doesn't add up.[/QUOTE]

Advanced stats dont ever factor defense perfectly. Klay made an all defensive team, Jeff did not. Klay received all defensive team votes in 6 seasons to Jeff's 1. Klay made 2 all nba teams to none for Jeff. Klay has received mvp votes in a season, Jeff? Nope. Jeff won't ever see the hall of fame while Klay is likely to hes on the short list of greatest shooters to ever live. Klay has somewhere around double the 30 point games Jeff has in his career. Jeff had a single 40 point game in his career, Klay probably has at minimum of 10 times that amount. 50 point games? Jeff? None 60 point games? Jeff? None. Scoring isnt the end all be all but the other things Jeff may do arent near enough to make up this gap in both scoring and defense. And this is coming from someone who wished someone would come off the bench and clothesline Klay everytime he played lol. You can t let numbers form your opinion about a guy you may have not seen. Again Jeff was no pushover he was a very good player but Klay is at least a whole tier above him as a role player/2nd option. Klay on those Jazz is probably enough to beat the bulls.

[QUOTE]
Advanced stats dont ever factor defense perfectly. Klay made an all defensive team, Jeff did not.
[/QUOTE]

Advanced stats absolutely do and can highlight defensive impact. There are tons of advanced stats out there centered around +/- and its regressions that measure impact a player has when on the floor in terms of the scoreboard which allows us to separate the Dwayne wades from the Zach lavines even if their stat line was similar.

And fact is Hornacek in his prime not only was way craftier with the ball in his hand, he outshot Klay from an era where shooting %s were lower. Outrebounded him as well, the only thing Klay has is slightly boost in man defense.

To act like Jeff has no argument is beyond absurd. Hornacek was closer to Manu than Klay.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;15020808]

Klay made 2 all nba teams to none for Jeff.


[/Quote]


You're forgetting that true franchise players like Curry or Love are dominant elite producers, so they make All-NBA without any playoff success... Otoh, secondary producers like Klay or Pippen needed titles to make All-NBA, similar to Manu, Parker, Pau, Dumars or Worthy - [I]they needed winning spotlight to be seen as All-NBA[/I].. And no one got more winning spotlight than Klay - he never produced anywhere near Jeff Hornacek, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.. Contrastingly, Jeff didn't get this benefit of getting carried to titles early in his career like Klay, and making All-NBA thereafter.. If Klay was barely scraping 20 ppg while losing on the Wizards, he might not make a single all-star game - the numbers show that he's a 1-dimensional player on offense that doesn't get to the line or pass.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;15020785]So the end all be all criteria of "[B]scoring .matters most" [/B].....[B]"uh uh eye test"[/B]....[B]"uhh uhh rangz"[/B] goes out the window depending on which way we want to bend? Because I guarantee Klay annihilates Hornacek as a scorer without looking at a single stat. And as a defender? Kinda laughable comparison and that's not to say Jeff was some pushover, he was a very good player but Klay was a borderline great player even if we're being modest. Amd i actively disliked both players but by the standards the actors in this thread use in other threads, there's no way to have this conversation and put Jeff anywhere near Klay.[/QUOTE]

This post should be banworthy

[QUOTE=tpols;15020816]Advanced stats absolutely do and can highlight defensive impact. There are tons of advanced stats out there centered around +/- and its regressions that measure impact a player has when on the floor in terms of the scoreboard which allows us to separate the Dwayne wades from the Zach lavines even if their stat line was similar.

And fact is Hornacek in his prime not only was way craftier with the ball in his hand, he outshot Klay from an era where shooting %s were lower. Outrebounded him as well, the only thing Klay has is slightly boost in man defense.

To act like Jeff has no argument is beyond absurd. Hornacek was closer to Manu than Klay.[/QUOTE]

We don't need advanced stats to tell us Dwade is better than Lavine, just eyes wtf? Same applies for Klay vs Jeff. Klay is a clearly superior player. One of the greatest shooters to ever live. Jeff being more crafty with the ball still doesn't outweigh klays superiority as a shooter, scorer or defender. Its too overwhelming a comparison. In what world did he outshoot Klay? He posts a higher fg% for his career taking 2 3s a game while klay takes nearly 8 and has taken as many as 10 a game for a season. What big games can you offer me from Jeff Hornacek that rival Klays game 6? Or any of the times hes shown up big in the postseason? Klay was a bonafied no.2 that on any given night could score as much as Kobe. I never liked the guy but you gotta put some respect on his name.

[QUOTE=3ba11;15020951]You're forgetting that true franchise players like Curry or Love are dominant elite producers, so they make All-NBA without any playoff success... Otoh, secondary producers like Klay or Pippen needed titles to make All-NBA, similar to Manu, Parker, Pau, Dumars or Worthy - [I]they needed winning spotlight to be seen as All-NBA[/I].. And no one got more winning spotlight than Klay - he never produced anywhere near Jeff Hornacek, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.. Contrastingly, Jeff didn't get this benefit of getting carried to titles early in his career like Klay, and making All-NBA thereafter.. If Klay was barely scraping 20 ppg while losing on the Wizards, he might not make a single all-star game - the numbers show that he's a 1-dimensional player on offense that doesn't get to the line or pass.[/QUOTE]

Until that stupid moment you realize Klay made all nba as well as being voted an allstar in 2015, months before the warriors win a title. Pippen was an allstat in 90, made all-defense in 91, once again some time before they ever won a chip. Sounds like your narrative sucks again. And FYI these guys more likely begin to make all nba and all def etc because of their gradual improvement to that level rather than because whatever star you're sucking off won a title. Scottie started making all defensive teams after the world saw his work on magic and other stars. He became all nba once he graduated to being a 20 a game guy. His numbers increased in nearly every aspect during the transition to being recognized as an all nba level player.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15021004]This post should be banworthy[/QUOTE]

Pot, meet kettle. I dont even know why they ever allow you back to be honest.

Now show us drays stats. Epm 4.3, 5.6, 4.5 from 15-17. He’s the true sidekick and easily top 15 guy in the league and all-nba lvl those 3 years. Tbf klay was 4.4, 3.4, 2.9 those 3 years. He’s easily an all star. They don’t highly rate klay on defense either.

What the box score stats and metrics don’t show is how much klays shooting helps his teams offense. Warriors could play 3 non spacers in bogut dray iggy and still be an elite offense because of curry and klay. Hornacek was a great shooter but he was taking less than 3 3’s a game klays on a different lvl. Two guys aren’t jumping out to hornacek and leaving Malone completely open, that’s what teams did vs klay. Shooting is also why Steph’s best ever season clears Jokic by a bit even though Jokic has better stats and is a better playmaker.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;15021065]Pot, meet kettle. I dont even know why they ever allow you back to be honest.[/QUOTE]
What, you don't think his constant racist insults are contributing to the board? :lol

[QUOTE=NBAGOAT;15021154]Now show us drays stats. Epm 4.3, 5.6, 4.5 from 15-17. He’s the true sidekick and easily top 15 guy in the league and all-nba lvl those 3 years. Tbf klay was 4.4, 3.4, 2.9 those 3 years. He’s easily an all star. They don’t highly rate klay on defense either.

What the box score stats and metrics don’t show is how much klays shooting helps his teams offense. Warriors could play 3 non spacers in bogut dray iggy and still be an elite offense because of curry and klay. Hornacek was a great shooter but he was taking less than 3 3’s a game klays on a different lvl. Two guys aren’t jumping out to hornacek and leaving Malone completely open, that’s what teams did vs klay. Shooting is also why Steph’s best ever season clears Jokic by a bit even though Jokic has better stats and is a better playmaker.[/QUOTE]

Yes. There is literally no data that shows Klay being an elite defender.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15021187]Yes. There is literally no data that shows Klay being an elite defender.[/QUOTE]

Just look at the 7:08 mark in the vid I posted. The data is there as a man defender.

You should be happy Curry had a teammate who always guarded the opponents best offensive perimeter player. He hid a lot of Curry's weaknesses as a defender.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15021189]Just look at the 7:08 mark in the vid I posted. The data is there as a man defender.

You should be happy Curry had a teammate who always guarded the opponents best offensive perimeter player. He hid a lot of Curry's weaknesses as a defender.[/QUOTE]

I’m not watching one second of some nerdy ass kid who never played ball and has KG in his top 10 of all time. That dude is ass and doesn’t know shit about basketball.

Post the stats here. I’m not watching low iq clown bball youtube videos.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15021200]I’m not watching one second of some nerdy ass kid who never played ball and has KG in his top 10 of all time. That dude is ass and doesn’t know shit about basketball.

Post the stats here. I’m not watching low iq clown bball youtube videos.[/QUOTE]

It's not even his data, but he puts it in the vid.

But we all know you have a history of shitting on every teammate Curry has ever had. You have no objectivity in these convos.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15021201]It's not even his data, but he puts it in the vid.

But we all know you have a history of shitting on every teammate Curry has ever had. You have no objectivity in these convos.[/QUOTE]

You are legit a dude who admit he was an obese child (who didn’t play basketball subsequently I’m assuming)

So you were an obese kid and didn’t magically drop all the weight and pick up basketball overnight and play for the high school team….


I’m not trying to be a dick but you are just making shit up. You don’t fundamentally understand the game. You don’t even math nerd statistically understand the game. You have resorted to posting youtube links of another kid who never played ball and has KG as a top 10 ATG for some bizarre reason I’m not really interested in pursuing further.

Post some metrics of Klay being an elite defender or get the f.uck out of here

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15021203]You are legit a dude who admit he was an obese child (who didn’t play basketball subsequently I’m assuming)

So you were an obese kid and didn’t magically drop all the weight and pick up basketball overnight and play for the high school team….


I’m not trying to be a dick but you are just making shit up. You don’t fundamentally understand the game. You don’t even math nerd statistically understand the game. You have resorted to posting youtube links of another kid who never played ball and has KG as a top 10 ATG for some bizarre reason I’m not really interested in pursuing further.

Post some metrics of Klay being an elite defender or get the f.uck out of here[/QUOTE]

This is your problem. You ask for data, I give it to you. Then go into denial mode and have a meltdown when I give it to you.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15021204]This is your problem. You ask for data, I give it to you. Then go into denial mode and have a meltdown when I give it to you.[/QUOTE]

Post the data you self admitted 5 8 obese kid who never played ball. I’m not watching some know nothing guys video to reinforce your know nothing point. Articulate your data like a normal human being or get the **** out. I’m sorrry if outside of copy pasting a youtube from some equally low iq dude is too much for you.

That ain’t my problem.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15021205]Post the data you self admitted 5 8 obese kid who never played ball. I’m not watching some know nothing guys video to reinforce your know nothing point. Articulate your data like a normal human being or get the **** out. I’m sorrry if outside of copy pasting a youtube from some equally low iq dude is too much for you.

That ain’t my problem.[/QUOTE]

Or you could just click the video like a normal damn person. My goodness, what a meltdown. :oldlol:

No wonder Curry couldn't win FMVP all those years, his teams were STACKED! You had Dray, Iggy, & Klay playing lockdown D while KD was dropping like 35 points a game.

The crazy thing is even if the Warriors had won in 2016 and 2019 we all know they would have given the FMVP to Draymond in '16 & Klay in '19.

You were an obese child who didn’t play basketball and can’t produce any stats about klay being an elite defender

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15021209]You were an obese child who didn’t play basketball and can’t produce any stats about klay being an elite defender[/QUOTE]

You were high on crack last night and couldn't figure out how to click a simple link to show you all the stats.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15021228]You were high on crack last night and couldn't figure out how to click a simple link to show you all the stats.[/QUOTE]

You are a midget beaner who doesn’t know anything about basketball.

You told us you were obese as a child and obviously never played

If you can’t put it the point you are trying to make in your own words, then too bad.

I’m not watching garbo low iq youtube videos from a nerd who has KG in his top 10 of all time.

There is no evidence Klay Thompson is an elite defender.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15021230]You are a midget beaner who doesn’t know anything about basketball.

If you can’t put it in the point you are trying to make in your own words, then too bad.

I’m not watching garbo low iq youtube videos from a nerd who has KG in his top 10 of all time.

There is no evidence Klay Thompson is an elite defender.[/QUOTE]

You are a hillbilly junkie who doesn't know anything about basketball

If you can't click a simple video that shows you exactly what you were asking for (I put a specific time stamp), then too bad

You can't watch the video because you simply can't handle the truth, you have been in meltdown mode ever since I posted that vid

There is great evidence of how Klay Thompson was an elite man defender.

Are there any metrics DRAPM or DRTG that actually have Klay is a great defender?

Just looking at the 2016 team, Bogut and Dray had by far the best DRTG at 99 and 100 respectively. Iggy and Curry had the next best at 103 and 105. Klay was tied for 5th with Harrison Barnes at 107. Those two had the worst DRTG for Golden State.

Thats on his own team! :lol

I'm curious what his DRAPM ranking was those years. It was probably mediocre rank league wide maybe slightly above average? I'll have to check.