Strictly speaking on court ability not based on accolades or anything like that.
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Strictly speaking on court ability not based on accolades or anything like that.
Kobe might be the best iso player of all-time, if they played one on one I think Kobe wins
The question was about 5 on 5 basketball try to keep up.
[QUOTE=RRR3;15030617]The question was about 5 on 5 basketball try to keep up.[/QUOTE]
Why did you make this thread? Anyways...Kobe can play a game from start to finish that's kinda important.
not even a fair comparison :kobe:
[QUOTE=John8204;15030610]Kobe might be the best iso player of all-time, if they played one on one I think Kobe wins[/QUOTE]
Size matters way too much in one on one. Scott Burrell almost beat Michael Jordan, and Burrell was a total scrub.
[QUOTE=j3lademaster;15030628]Size matters way too much in one on one. Scott Burrell almost beat Michael Jordan, and Burrell was a total scrub.[/QUOTE]
Maybe but Kobe won a title with KG on him
[QUOTE=John8204;15030629]Maybe but Kobe won a title with KG on him[/QUOTE]
This didn’t happen.
What exactly except ballhandling is Kobe better at? Yeah Jokič is slower, but he's more effective while scoring at the same clip on average. Better rebounder, better passer. So all Kobe has on Jokič is fanciness. Kobe's defense outside the 3 peat years is massively overrated.
[QUOTE=Overdrive;15030646]What exactly except ballhandling is Kobe better at? Yeah Jokič is slower, but he's more effective while scoring at the same clip on average. Better rebounder, better passer. So all Kobe has on Jokič is fanciness. Kobe's defense outside the 3 peat years is massively overrated.[/QUOTE]
High IQ post.
[QUOTE=Overdrive;15030646]What exactly except ballhandling is Kobe better at? Yeah Jokič is slower, but he's more effective while scoring at the same clip on average. Better rebounder, better passer. So all Kobe has on Jokič is fanciness.[B] Kobe's defense outside the 3 peat years is massively overrated.[/B][/QUOTE]
Anyone who watched basketball during the 00's agrees with this. The only year outside the 3 peat you could say he had an argument for being All-Defense is 2008.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15030649]Anyone who watched basketball during the 00's agrees with this. The only year outside the 3 peat you could say he had an argument for being All-Defense is 2008.[/QUOTE]
xRAPM has Kobe ranked 21st percentile as a defender for his career :lol
How y’all feel about Kobe’s defense in ‘03, was that really the year you noticed a drop off?
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15030671]How y’all feel about Kobe’s defense in ‘03, was that really the year you noticed a drop off?[/QUOTE]
By '03 he became inconsistent. Effort wasn't there like in years past. Alot of it was because of an increased offensive role that year. I would still say his defense that year was far better than his '06 & '07 years. It was an absolute joke that he made all-defensive first team in '06 & '07. Alot of fans at the time didn't agree with that.
Looks like only the least knowledgeable posters of ISH when it comes to basketball think Kobe is better.
[QUOTE=RRR3;15030701]Looks like only the least knowledgeable posters of ISH when it comes to basketball think Kobe is better.[/QUOTE]
John8204 voted for Kobe so that isn't true.
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15030704]John8204 voted for Kobe so that isn't true.[/QUOTE]
True where would we be without his genius takes like Stockton>Shaq?
Snivelball voted for Kobe. In case you needed any more proof Jokic is better.
Snivelly, how come Jokic has far better PER WS BPM and VORP? Your favorite stats apparently. And how come Jokic didn’t need allstars to win unlike Kobe. Be consistent snivelly :no:
[QUOTE=Overdrive;15030646]What exactly except ballhandling is Kobe better at? Yeah Jokič is slower, but he's more effective while scoring at the same clip on average. Better rebounder, better passer. So all Kobe has on Jokič is fanciness. Kobe's defense outside the 3 peat years is massively overrated.[/QUOTE]
"More effective at scoring..." :oldlol:
He's so effective yet he couldn't figure out how to beat Alex Caruso. He's so effective yet he relies on Jamal Murray half the time.
Your grandpa could score at higher efficiency in this era. Look at Bron and Durant, old and injured as fukk but more "efficient" than they were during their primes.
Here is what Ty Lue had to say about MJ just a few days ago when asked how many he would average today:
[B]"Today? 45," Lue said confidently when asked how many points Jordan would average today. "You can't touch nobody. It's a foul. ... There wouldn't be a year he wouldn't average 45. You can't touch nobody now. The physicality's pretty much gone. Anything, you're going to the free throw line, and just how smart he was. Especially nowadays, you can take advantage of these guys just as far as IQ alone."[/B]
Considering Kobe is the closest thing we've seen to MJ, both in terms of talent and killer mindset, it's safe to say those same things apply.
Jay-Z has a famous lyric "do you fools listen to music or do you just skim through it..."
Here it's more like "do you fools actually watch basketball or do you just look at numbers after the fact..."
Because only a number obsessed dork could watch Kobe dominate in real time, rack up all these championships... and then look at his numbers AFTER THE FACT and determine he was no good.
And to add insult to injury, they're not even real numbers. They're made up advanced statistics. Frankenstein numbers that carry no significance.
[QUOTE=RRR3;15030651]xRAPM has Kobe ranked 21st percentile as a defender for his career :lol[/QUOTE]
Where does it rank Klay Thompson?
[QUOTE=Baller234;15030801]"More effective at scoring..." :oldlol:
He's so effective yet he couldn't figure out how to beat Alex Caruso. He's so effective yet he relies on Jamal Murray half the time.
Your grandpa could score at higher efficiency in this era. Look at Bron and Durant, old and injured as fukk but more "efficient" than they were during their primes.
Here is what Ty Lue had to say about MJ just a few days ago when asked how many he would average today:
[B]"Today? 45," Lue said confidently when asked how many points Jordan would average today. "You can't touch nobody. It's a foul. ... There wouldn't be a year he wouldn't average 45. You can't touch nobody now. The physicality's pretty much gone. Anything, you're going to the free throw line, and just how smart he was. Especially nowadays, you can take advantage of these guys just as far as IQ alone."[/B]
Considering Kobe is the closest thing we've seen to MJ, both in terms of talent and killer mindset, it's safe to say those same things apply.
Jay-Z has a famous lyric "do you fools listen to music or do you just skim through it..."
Here it's more like "do you fools actually watch basketball or do you just look at numbers after the fact..."
Because only a number obsessed dork could watch Kobe dominate in real time, rack up all these championships... and then look at his numbers AFTER THE FACT and determine he was no good.
And to add insult to injury, they're not even real numbers. They're made up advanced statistics. Frankenstein numbers that carry no significance.[/QUOTE]
You keep citing Caruso while it's not like Kobe qasn't locked down multiple times during whole series.
Also Kobe was good. Just not as good as Jokič is and I watched Kobe "grow up".
[QUOTE=Baller234;15030801]"More effective at scoring..." :oldlol:
He's so effective yet he couldn't figure out how to beat Alex Caruso. He's so effective yet he relies on Jamal Murray half the time.
Your grandpa could score at higher efficiency in this era. Look at Bron and Durant, old and injured as fukk but more "efficient" than they were during their primes.
Here is what Ty Lue had to say about MJ just a few days ago when asked how many he would average today:
[B]"Today? 45," Lue said confidently when asked how many points Jordan would average today. "You can't touch nobody. It's a foul. ... There wouldn't be a year he wouldn't average 45. You can't touch nobody now. The physicality's pretty much gone. Anything, you're going to the free throw line, and just how smart he was. Especially nowadays, you can take advantage of these guys just as far as IQ alone."[/B]
Considering Kobe is the closest thing we've seen to MJ, both in terms of talent and killer mindset, it's safe to say those same things apply.
Jay-Z has a famous lyric "do you fools listen to music or do you just skim through it..."
Here it's more like "do you fools actually watch basketball or do you just look at numbers after the fact..."
Because only a number obsessed dork could watch Kobe dominate in real time, rack up all these championships... and then look at his numbers AFTER THE FACT and determine he was no good.
And to add insult to injury, they're not even real numbers. They're made up advanced statistics. Frankenstein numbers that carry no significance.[/QUOTE]
Make the case for Kobe with facts not whiny emotional meltdowns please.
[QUOTE=RRR3;15030811]Make the case for Kobe with facts not whiny emotional meltdowns please.[/QUOTE]
What applies to MJ applies to Kobe
I didn't know Lue said all that - so it shows that everyone knows previous eras were better basketball players with superior hoops instinct, IQ and toughness
[QUOTE=3ba11;15030842]What applies to MJ applies to Kobe
I didn't know Lue said all that - so it shows that everyone knows previous eras were better basketball players with superior hoops instinct, IQ and toughness[/QUOTE]
Kobe had a terrible basketball IQ, he chucked up horrid shots like a madman. Next.
Meanwhile the stats you always use have Jokic FAR ahead.
Kobe career high BPM: 7.6 Jokic AVERAGE BPM: 10.3
Kobe career high PER: 28.0 Jokic AVERAGE PER: 28.5
Kobe career high WS/48: .224 Jokic AVERAGE WS/48: .260
:yaohappy:
poor poor POOOOR snivelly
Soooooo, what does DRAPM say about Klay? lol
[QUOTE=warriorfan;15030852]Soooooo, what does DRAPM say about Klay? lol[/QUOTE]
Stay on topic please this is about Jokic and Kobe
[QUOTE=3ba11;15030842]What applies to MJ applies to Kobe
I didn't know Lue said all that - so it shows that everyone knows previous eras were better basketball players with superior hoops instinct, IQ and toughness[/QUOTE]
No, it does simply not. Kobe was worse than Jordan at everything but shooting 3s.
[QUOTE=Overdrive;15030869]No, it does simply not. Kobe was worse than Jordan at everything but shooting 3s.[/QUOTE]
What's wild to me is you could never convince me Kobe was discernably better at his peak than guys like Kawhi & Wade, yet people try to lump him in with Jordan when he's clearly not on his level either all time or peak wise.
I honestly can't think of another athlete people try so hard to elevate to a level he doesn't belong at like Kobe, they frankly do a disservice to him by trying to do that.
[quote=soubeachtalents;15030871]what's wild to me is you could never convince me kobe was discernably better at his peak than guys like kawhi & wade, yet people try to lump him in with jordan when he's clearly not on his level either all time or peak wise.
I honestly can't think of another athlete people try so hard to elevate to a level he doesn't belong at like kobe, they frankly do a disservice to him trying to do that.[/quote]
5 rangz
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15030871]What's wild to me is you could never convince me Kobe was discernably better at his peak than guys like Kawhi & Wade, yet people try to lump him in with Jordan when he's clearly not on his level either all time or peak wise.
I honestly can't think of another athlete people try so hard to elevate to a level he doesn't belong at like Kobe, they frankly do a disservice to him by trying to do that.[/QUOTE]
He wasn't leaps better, but he was definitely better.
Wade was quicker than Kobe and faster off the dribble no question, but he didn't have the same raw fundamentals. With Kawhi it's the opposite. He has the fundamentals but Kobe is more crafty and creative.
They're both great players. The gap between them and Kobe isn't big at all. We're splitting hairs.
But I'm still giving Kobe the edge over them if forced to choose. Neither of them were visibly "better" and neither of them have the resume or the results to prove it.
[QUOTE=Baller234;15030877]He wasn't leaps better, but he was definitely better.
Wade was quicker than Kobe and faster off the dribble no question, but he didn't have the same raw fundamentals. With Kawhi it's the opposite. He has the fundamentals but Kobe is more crafty and creative.
They're both great players. The gap between them and Kobe isn't big at all. We're splitting hairs.
But I'm still giving Kobe the edge over them if forced to choose. Neither of them were visibly "better" and neither of them have the resume or the results to prove it.[/QUOTE]
Definitely better based on what? Because you say so? Wade had a better finals performance than Kobe ever had in 2006 and a better regular season than he ever had in 2009 too.
I'm a big Kobe fan but Jokic is getting to Mt Rushmore levels
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15030871]What's wild to me is you could never convince me Kobe was discernably better at his peak than guys like Kawhi & Wade, yet people try to lump him in with Jordan when he's clearly not on his level either all time or peak wise.
I honestly can't think of another athlete people try so hard to elevate to a level he doesn't belong at like Kobe, they frankly do a disservice to him by trying to do that.[/QUOTE]
And it's weird enough that early Wade was way closer to first 3 peat Jordan than any "Next MJ" ever was. He just wasn't granted the best franchise the NBA has to offer from day 1.
As good as Kobe was but he was a lesser version of post baseball Jordan and as you say people act like he's anywhere close to the peak version. He just isn't and there are quite some people between. Lebron and Jokič being two of those.
Kobe stans are weird. No other fanbase takes that much issue putting their guy at a spot they don't feel he deserves. Putting Kobe at 7, 11 or 12 all time doesn't change his career in any way, but they act like if he's put at 12 people think he sucked.
[QUOTE=Overdrive;15030889]And it's weird enough that early Wade was way closer to first 3 peat Jordan than any "Next MJ" ever was. He just wasn't granted the best franchise the NBA has to offer from day 1.
As good as Kobe was but he was a lesser version of post baseball Jordan and as you say people act like he's anywhere close to the peak version. He just isn't and there are quite some people between. Lebron and Jokič being two of those.
Kobe stans are weird. No other fanbase takes that much issue putting their guy at a spot they don't feel he deserves. Putting Kobe at 7, 11 or 12 all time doesn't change his career in any way, but they act like if he's put at 12 people think he sucked.[/QUOTE]
Don't take it up with us, take it up with Ty Lue. Take it up with the litany of HOF'ers and stars that would tell you you're wrong.
Let me guess, they're all retarded stans too? You guys know more than they do because you studied a graph and watched "Thinking Basketball"???
:oldlol:
[QUOTE=Baller234;15030893]Don't take it up with us, take it up with Ty Lue. Take it up with the litany of HOF'ers and stars that would tell you you're wrong.
Let me guess, they're all retarded stans too? You guys know more than they do because you studied a graph and watched "Thinking Basketball"???
:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
A quote about Jordan is proof to you that Kobe would be as good as some virtual Jordan Lue proposed. That's your kind of "facts".
dbl
[QUOTE=Overdrive;15030895]A quote about Jordan is proof to you that Kobe would be as good as some virtual Jordan Lue proposed. That's your kind of "facts".[/QUOTE]
Same interview:
[video=youtube;zMpm1UFwSUQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMpm1UFwSUQ[/video]
Shannon tells Lue that some outlet had Kobe ranked 11th all time. You could tell by the look on his face and the conviction of his response that he has Kobe ranked a lot higher than that. He SNEERS at the thought of Kobe being #11.
You think he has Yolk top ten all time?? :oldlol:
Here is the video I posted in the other thread showing various hof'ers and stars echoing that Kobe is just below Mike. Multiple examples of guys who played against Kobe, Lebron and Wade... all saying Kobe was the best they faced.
[video=youtube;VvcmuUd6CHo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvcmuUd6CHo[/video]
But sure, they're just retarded stans.
Yes they are retarded stans. Being a player doesn’t mean you can’t be biased.
Jokic
[QUOTE=Baller234;15030899]Same interview:
[video=youtube;zMpm1UFwSUQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMpm1UFwSUQ[/video]
Shannon tells Lue that some outlet had Kobe ranked 11th all time. You could tell by the look on his face and the conviction of his response that he has Kobe ranked a lot higher than that. He SNEERS at the thought of Kobe being #11.
You think he has Yolk top ten all time?? :oldlol:
Here is the video I posted in the other thread showing various hof'ers and stars echoing that Kobe is just below Mike. Multiple examples of guys who played against Kobe, Lebron and Wade... all saying Kobe was the best they faced.
[video=youtube;VvcmuUd6CHo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvcmuUd6CHo[/video]
But sure, they're just retarded stans.[/QUOTE]
As I said before. Being ranked 11th or 7th doesn't change anything about Kobe's skill or career. It's just how the creatora of such a list perceive his career.
Players mostly don't give a shit about "career" they see a player from a skill POV and ofc a contemporary will rank Kobe very high, but at the same time most contemporaries neglect the players who came before and do so for alot for the ones that came afterwards.
You'll have lists by players that are heavily biased towards their era and one maybe two idols they loved watching when they grew up. While players are surely more in touch of the game in itself journalists cover a way larger amount of time under the same conditions.
I think a mix of both views could be very accurate.