Every 2nd option took over the top dog/1st option role in a series, except Pippen

Tony Parker, Klay, Middleton, etc, and also all the 90's sidekicks like Stockton, Terry Porter, KJ, Penny, Kemp, Dumars, Worthy and even Starks

Ultimately, Pippen was a system player with low peak capability, so the wasn't even on scouting reports, according to Shaq.. This forced MJ to defeat max defensive attention (carry the scoring load).. MJ also had to shoot over packed paints because Pippen's efficiency/spacing was often the worst ever (Pippen had worst-ever shooting splits for a playoff run of 15 games and 35 MPG in 96' and 98' Playoffs)

[QUOTE=3ba11;15043517]Tony Parker, Klay, Middleton, etc, and also all the 90's sidekicks like Stockton, Terry Porter, KJ, Penny, Kemp, Dumars, Worthy and even Starks

Ultimately, Pippen was a system player with low peak capability, so the wasn't even on scouting reports, according to Shaq.. This forced MJ to defeat max defensive attention (carry the scoring load).. MJ also had to shoot over packed paints because Pippen's efficiency/spacing was often the worst ever (Pippen had worst-ever shooting splits for a playoff run of 15 games and 35 MPG in 96' and 98' Playoffs)[/QUOTE]

Yup, I distinctly remember when Vernon Maxwell bailed out Hakeem.

[QUOTE=Duffy Pratt;15043573]Yup, I distinctly remember when Vernon Maxwell bailed out Hakeem.[/QUOTE]


Otis Thorpe was Hakeem's 2nd option and he took over the leading scorer role over Hakeem in a 1990 series:

[url]https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1990-nba-western-conference-first-round-rockets-vs-lakers.html[/url]

Oh and Vernon also averaged more than Hakeem in that series

[QUOTE=3ba11;15043610]Otis Thorpe was Hakeem's 2nd option and he took over the leading scorer role over Hakeem in a 1990 series:

[url]https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1990-nba-western-conference-first-round-rockets-vs-lakers.html[/url]

Oh and Vernon also averaged more than Hakeem in that series[/QUOTE]

OK, though I have my doubts about talking about Hakeem in 90. Now enlighten us on the playoff series where Stockton out scored Malone.

How could he when he's playing with a ball hog that doesn't elevate his teammates his entire career


The one time we saw Pippen as the number one option he managed to lead a depleted Bulls team to 55 wins and almost got them to the conference finals

If he had more time to develop as the number one guy I'm sure he could get you 27/7/7 alongside GOAT perimeter defense

Jackson & MJ prevented Pippen from reaching his full potential

[QUOTE=Duffy Pratt;15043619]OK, though I have my doubts about talking about Hakeem in 90. Now enlighten us on the playoff series where Stockton out scored Malone.[/QUOTE]


You were already proven wrong and now you're flailing

Stockton wasn't the 2nd option either

Stockton still dominated the 97' WCF to carry the Jazz to the Finals, while hitting the historic series walk-off in Barkley's face - so he was "that guy", while Pippen never was... Stockton also outplayed Magic in the 88' Playoffs when the Jazz nearly beat them.. Again,, Pippen never dominated and was [U]always carried in every series[/U] - this is unique to Pippen among 2nd options

Pippen outscored Magic, Isiah, Stockton, Ewing, Price, Zo, Dumars, KJ, Tim Hardaway & Porter h2h while having the biggest ballhog in history on his team. Dude was an amazing player.

How many conference finals did Jordan make without Pippen again...because made it to the
conference finals more than Jordan.

Pippen took over as first option a month before the 1994 season (MJ quit, mentally soft needed rest) and was handed a 6th round scrub who had been out of the league for years, as MJ's replacement in the starting lineup.

Pip proceeds to will his team to 55 wins, a bullshit call away from the ECF, 3rd in MVP voting and All NBA on both sides of the court.

Jordan never came close to achieving the above without Pippen.... FACT!

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15043659]Pippen outscored Magic, Isiah, Stockton, Ewing, Price, Zo, Dumars, KJ, Tim Hardaway & Porter h2h while having the biggest ballhog in history on his team. Dude was an amazing player.[/QUOTE]


All those guys took over the top dog/1st option role in a series, while Pippen never did, so Pippen is the only guy that was carried in every series... Pippen was the only guy that couldn't create his own shot in the halfcourt and needed a system to average 15-20 ppg - [I]this is a statistical fact[/I]- Pippen was mostly a dunker that couldn't reach 15 ppg outside the system... Essentially, when a team really needs a bucket, Pippen is never the option.

Secondly, Pippen is 1 for 4 in outscoring Isiah in a series.. Ditto Dumars and Ewing... The list of stars that outscored him is much larger than the list of stars he outscored.. When we include efficiency, Pippen is easily the worst-scoring star of the 90's, particularly because he was the only "system player" that couldn't reach 15 ppg outside the system (mostly a dunker) - this is why he's the only guy that never took over the 1st option role in a series (never dominated, couldn't "take over")

Thirdly, aside from Ewing and Zo, everyone you listed was a guard that underperformed against MJ in that one particular series... Otherwise, they all peaked much higher than Pippen and were "go-to" dominant players... Terry Porter carried the Blazers to the 92' Finals by averaging 26/4/8 on 53% three-point shooting (6 attempts) in the WCF.. He was basically Damian Lillard, and this was the WEAKEST sidekick that Jordan faced in the Finals (Porter also carried the Blazers to the 90' Finals as well).. Stockton carried the Jazz in the 92' WCF and hit the historic walk-off in Barkley's face.. Stockton's clutch-stats are also Jordan-level - Malone was 2nd fiddle in clutch - this is an obvious statistical fact.. These are all GO-TO players, while Pippen was just a dunker that couldn't reach 15 ppg outside the system.

Btw, the triangle is the most top-heavy offense of all-time that forces the first option to carry the goat scoring load... [i]Due to this fact, GM's build the team without a 3rd scoring option[/i]... The scoring options consist of a 1st option that carries the goat scoring load, and then a 2nd option that barely scrapes 15-20 ppg, and then no other scorers - this matters because the Bulls' opponents had 3rd, 4th and 5th scorers, so their sidekick has to share the load with other scorers... Despite this handicap, they still nearly matched or exceeded Pippen in basically every series with better efficiency, clutch, and 4th quarter scoring.. Pippen was often not even 2nd on the Bulls in 4th quarter scoring.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;15043683]Pippen took over as first option a month before the 1994 season (MJ quit, mentally soft needed rest) and was handed a 6th round scrub who had been out of the league for years, as MJ's replacement in the starting lineup.

Pip proceeds to will his team to 55 wins, a bullshit call away from the ECF, 3rd in MVP voting and All NBA on both sides of the court.

Jordan never came close to achieving the above without Pippen.... FACT![/QUOTE]



Halfway through this clip, Penny states that the 94' Bulls were the biggest letdown game of the year and teams stayed out all night before playing them because "no MJ":


[url]https://m.youtube.com/shorts/2EY7yjROKC4[/url]


So it's all exactly like I've been saying... The "real" Bulls without MJ were barely .500 in 95' before MJ returned..

Pippen was never a "franchise player" that could build a team from scratch - he was simply handed the most well-oiled machine ever and fully-developed dynasty, which he cratered to .500 in less than 18 months..

Again, when a team needs a bucket, Pippen is NEVER the option - even a role player like Kukoc is preferred

None of that refutes the FACTS that I provided above about the 94 season.


Back to your Pippen drawing board, chico.

[QUOTE=3ba11;15043685]All those guys took over the top dog/1st option role in a series, while Pippen never did, so Pippen is the only guy that was carried in every series... Pippen was the only guy that couldn't create his own shot in the halfcourt and needed a system to average 15-20 ppg - [I]this is a statistical fact[/I]- Pippen was mostly a dunker that couldn't reach 15 ppg outside the system... Essentially, when a team really needs a bucket, Pippen is never the option.

Secondly, Pippen is 1 for 4 in outscoring Isiah in a series.. Ditto Dumars and Ewing... The list of stars that outscored him is much larger than the list of stars he outscored.. When we include efficiency, Pippen is easily the worst-scoring star of the 90's, particularly because he was the only "system player" that couldn't reach 15 ppg outside the system (mostly a dunker) - this is why he's the only guy that never took over the 1st option role in a series (never dominated, couldn't "take over")

Thirdly, aside from Ewing and Zo, everyone you listed was a guard that underperformed against MJ in that one particular series... Otherwise, they all peaked much higher than Pippen and were "go-to" dominant players... Terry Porter carried the Blazers to the 92' Finals by averaging 26/4/8 on 53% three-point shooting (6 attempts) in the WCF.. He was basically Damian Lillard, and this was the WEAKEST sidekick that Jordan faced in the Finals (Porter also carried the Blazers to the 90' Finals as well).. Stockton carried the Jazz in the 92' WCF and hit the historic walk-off in Barkley's face.. Stockton's clutch-stats are also Jordan-level - Malone was 2nd fiddle in clutch - this is an obvious statistical fact.. These are all GO-TO players, while Pippen was just a dunker that couldn't reach 15 ppg outside the system.

Btw, the triangle is the most top-heavy offense of all-time that forces the first option to carry the goat scoring load... [i]Due to this fact, GM's build the team without a 3rd scoring option[/i]... The scoring options consist of a 1st option that carries the goat scoring load, and then a 2nd option that barely scrapes 15-20 ppg, and then no other scorers - this matters because the Bulls' opponents had 3rd, 4th and 5th scorers, so their sidekick has to share the load with other scorers... Despite this handicap, they still nearly matched or exceeded Pippen in basically every series with better efficiency, clutch, and 4th quarter scoring.. Pippen was often not even 2nd on the Bulls in 4th quarter scoring.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]https://c.tenor.com/PLCroit80ccAAAAd/tenor.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;15043688]None of that refutes the FACTS that I provided above about the 94 season.


Back to your Pippen drawing board, chico.[/QUOTE]


Penny isn't lying - it's a fact that everyone stayed out all night before playing the 94' Bulls.. So the 55 wins doesn't represent a team that Pippen built/developed/sustained - it was an obvious fluke and crashed to earth real quick

MJ replaced with a scrub = 55 wins

When LeBron left Cleveland in 2010... it took the Cavs 2+ seasons (213gms) to win 55gms

:roll:

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;15043692]MJ replaced with a scrub = 55 wins

When LeBron left Cleveland in 2010... it took the Cavs 2+ seasons (213gms) to win 55gms

:roll:[/QUOTE]


The 2010 Cavs were 2nd Round losers that lost their entire team, so they fell to lottery... They lost Mo, Varejao, Shaq, Zydrunas and Delonte, which was 52 ppg.. Lebron essentially gutted that team by losing so catastrophically as a favorite for 2 straight years

It's easy to forget that Lebron couldn't win more than 45-50 games until he received a 2nd all-star in 2009 to provide the spacing his stiff-arm needed to be MVP.. Meanwhile, AD lifted a lottery team to champion in 2020, so teammates like Mo and AD always saved Lebron's teams... And of course his super-team teammates like Wade, Bosh, Allen, Love and Kyrie

[QUOTE=3ba11;15043690]Penny isn't lying - it's a fact that everyone stayed out all night before playing the 94' Bulls.. So the 55 wins doesn't represent a team that Pippen built/developed/sustained - it was an obvious fluke and crashed to earth real quick[/QUOTE]

Extremely shook by the FACTS.... resorts to a player opinion as retort :lol

Dbl

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;15043692]MJ replaced with a scrub = 55 wins

When LeBron left Cleveland in 2010... it took the Cavs 2+ seasons (213gms) to win 55gms

:roll:[/QUOTE]


Jordan took a .500 ballclub in 1995 to 72 wins and the goat team in 1996.. So 1994 was a fluke that meant nothing except to inflate Pippen's career by being HANDED the goat team against sleeping opponents

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;15043694]Extremely shook by the FACTS.... resorts to a player opinion as retort :lol[/QUOTE]


i responded to you in the previous post above, while you ignored my facts about the 2010 Cavs in post #16

[QUOTE=3ba11;15043693]The 2010 Cavs were 2nd Round losers that lost their entire team, so they fell to lottery... They lost Mo, Varejao, Shaq, Zydrunas and Delonte, which was 52 ppg.. Lebron essentially gutted that team by losing so catastrophically as a favorite for 2 straight years

It's easy to forget that Lebron couldn't win more than 45-50 games until he received a 2nd all-star in 2009 to provide the spacing his stiff-arm needed to be MVP.. Meanwhile, AD lifted a lottery team to champion in 2020, so teammates like Mo and AD always saved Lebron's teams... And of course his super-team teammates like Wade, Bosh, Allen, Love and Kyrie[/QUOTE]

Your GOAT was replaced by a 6th round scrub. If Jordan was Chicago's entire offense and Pippen sucked like you claim.... then you're admitting the league and competition was complete shit during MJ's time in the 90's.

You can't claim all that stupid shit without contradicting yourself, ya dope.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;15043698]Your GOAT was replaced by a 6th round scrub. If Jordan was Chicago's entire offense and Pippen sucked like you claim.... then you're admitting the league and competition was complete shit during MJ's time in the 90's.

You can't claim all that stupid shit without contradicting yourself, ya dope.[/QUOTE]


It's easy to be complete shit when you're hung over from staying out all night and partying

Imagine that you're a rookie baseball player in the 1920's, and you get the schedule for the upcoming season - the first thing you do is circle the date that you will face the great Babe Ruth - you can't wait and buy tickets to fly in all your friends and family... But right before the season, Babe Ruth retires suddenly - so the biggest game of your life became the most meaningless game - the biggest letdown game of all-time - that's what the 94' Bulls were and Penny confirmed it nicely for us

[QUOTE=3ba11;15043696]Jordan took a .500 ballclub in 1995 to 72 wins and the goat team in 1996.. So 1994 was a fluke that meant nothing except to inflate Pippen's career by being HANDED the goat team against sleeping opponents[/QUOTE]

That's after taking time off to rest and recruiting the NBA's greatest rebounder of the modern era.

Rodman received multiple FMVP votes in 96 for avg. 7ppg. Kemp got multiple FMVP votes for losing. :lol

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;15043700]That's after taking time off to rest and recruiting the NBA's greatest rebounder of the modern era.

Rodman received multiple FMVP votes in 96 for avg. 7ppg. Kemp got multiple FMVP votes for losing. :lol[/QUOTE]


Jordan was forced to co-lead the rebounding with 8 RPG for the 97' Playoffs because Rodman only averaged 4/8 for those playoffs, and he wasn't the starter for the 98' Playoffs... Kukoc beat Rodman for the starting PF spot, which means that Jordan won titles with 3 different role players at PF - Kukoc, Grant and Rodman... Fossil Rodman was worse than 2010 Shaq or 09' Ben Wallace, and the Bulls won IN SPITE of going 4 on 5 offensively... ... Infact, Jordan is the only guy that woke titles with a 4 ppg guy getting major minutes

[QUOTE=3ba11;15043699][b]It's easy to be complete shit when you're hung over from staying out all night and partying[/b]

Imagine that you're a rookie baseball player in the 1920's, and you get the schedule for the upcoming season - the first thing you do is circle the date that you will face the great Babe Ruth - you can't wait and buy tickets to fly in all your friends and family... But right before the season, Babe Ruth retires suddenly - so the biggest game of your life became the most meaningless game - the biggest letdown game of all-time - that's what the 94' Bulls were and Penny confirmed it nicely for us[/QUOTE]

One players opinion doesn't mean shit. How come word didn't get out about the allegedly partying to those voting for MVP, ALL-NBA and All-Defensive?

[QUOTE=3ba11;15043702]Jordan was forced to co-lead the rebounding with 8 RPG for the 97' Playoffs because Rodman only averaged 4/8 for those playoffs, and he wasn't the starter for the 98' Playoffs... Kukoc beat Rodman for the starting PF spot, which means that Jordan won titles with 3 different role players at PF - Kukoc, Grant and Rodman... Fossil Rodman was worse than 2010 Shaq or 09' Ben Wallace, and the Bulls won IN SPITE of going 4 on 5 offensively... ... Infact, Jordan is the only guy that woke titles with a 4 ppg guy getting major minutes[/QUOTE]

None of that changes what happened in 96. Jordan was all on board with adding then current 4x rebound champ / 7x consecutive All Defensive team....

[QUOTE=3ba11;15043702]Jordan was forced to co-lead the rebounding with 8 RPG for the 97' Playoffs because Rodman only averaged 4/8 for those playoffs, and he wasn't the starter for the 98' Playoffs... Kukoc beat Rodman for the starting PF spot, which means that Jordan won titles with 3 different role players at PF - Kukoc, Grant and Rodman... Fossil Rodman was worse than 2010 Shaq or 09' Ben Wallace, and the Bulls won IN SPITE of going 4 on 5 offensively... ... Infact, Jordan is the only guy that woke titles with a 4 ppg guy getting major minutes[/QUOTE]

If Jordan didn't take time off to rest abd recharge... there'd be no 96-98 Finals. He would've petered out and bounced before those Finals. That's why those 3 get an * due to what no other great player has done before or after him.... quit the league, rest up, then return to win more titles*

MJ's considered in a league of his own.... due to quitting and coming back multiple times.

[QUOTE=3ba11;15043656]You were already proven wrong and now you're flailing

Stockton wasn't the 2nd option either

Stockton still dominated the 97' WCF to carry the Jazz to the Finals, while hitting the historic series walk-off in Barkley's face - so he was "that guy", while Pippen never was... Stockton also outplayed Magic in the 88' Playoffs when the Jazz nearly beat them.. Again,, Pippen never dominated and was [U]always carried in every series[/U] - this is unique to Pippen among 2nd options[/QUOTE]

You’re the one who brought up Stockton. Go read your first post.

In the 88 Lakers series, Malone averaged 29 to Stockton’s 19. You really want to say that Stockton was first option or top dog in that series.

In the 97 WCF, Stockton was great and his game winner basically broke the Rockets (I live in Houston). But still not a first option, nor even top dog on the team.

Don’t change your criteria. Stockton was great. The Jazz may have been the epitome of the two man game, but there was never any series in which Malone was not the top guy.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;15043706]None of that changes what happened in 96. Jordan was all on board with adding then current 4x rebound champ / 7x consecutive All Defensive team....[/QUOTE]


Again, when we look at what each guy needed to win, we see that Lebron needed franchise players at PF like AD, Love or Bosh, while the PF position was a role player position for Jordan (Grant, Kukoc, Rodman)

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;15043709]If Jordan didn't take time off to rest abd recharge... there'd be no 96-98 Finals. He would've petered out and bounced before those Finals. That's why those 3 get an * due to what no other great player has done before or after him.... quit the league, rest up, then return to win more titles*

MJ's considered in a league of his own.... due to quitting and coming back multiple times.[/QUOTE]


It's interesting because part of the reason the 94' Bulls won 55 is because they upgraded every roster spot and also received the "closer" that Jordan never had in Kukoc, who hit 5 game-winners for them that season.

the point is that this would've been BY FAR the strongest cast that Jordan ever had if he never retired in 94' - he would've 4-peated, and therefore the same result - GOAT status... ... He had just averaged 41 ppg in the Finals, so it's not like he was physically injured... He simply saw an opportunity to take some time off without hurting his legacy because he was so far ahead of the pack... But he obviously could've played if he decided to

[QUOTE=Duffy Pratt;15043715]You’re the one who brought up Stockton. Go read your first post.

In the 88 Lakers series, Malone averaged 29 to Stockton’s 19. You really want to say that Stockton was first option or top dog in that series.

In the 97 WCF, Stockton was great and his game winner basically broke the Rockets (I live in Houston). But still not a first option, nor even top dog on the team.

Don’t change your criteria. Stockton was great. The Jazz may have been the epitome of the two man game, but there was never any series in which Malone was not the top guy.[/QUOTE]


I'm not changing anything - you haven't poked a hole or found a good example yet of a sidekick that never took over as 1st option and the best player, because Stockton DID:


[indent]4th quarter scoring 1997 WCF:

Stockton'... [url=https://www.nba.com/stats/player/304/traditional?SeasonType=Playoffs&Season=1996-97&Period=4&PORound=3]8.2 on 60%[/url]
Malone...... [url=https://www.nba.com/stats/player/252/traditional?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3&Period=4]6.3 on 42%[/url][/indent]


Again, pippen is the only sidekick that failed to take over the "top dog" or 1st option role in a series - I believe that Stockton did many times based on his equal-scoring partner status with Malone in the 97' WCF coupled with his Jordan-level clutch-time numbers and 33% scoring edge on Malone in the 4th

Regardless, all the other sidekicks did, such as Worthy, Starks, X-Man, Dumars, KJ, Porter, Payton, Penny, etc.. And all modern sidekicks... the only guy that was really just a dunker was Pippen - he could only be 2nd option alongside the goat scorer to carry him, otherwise he was 3rd through 6th option as we saw in Houston or Portland.

Thiose guys had a series where they could be called 1st option, (as illegitimate as that bs sounds) meanwhile Scottie had an entire season as 1st option and finished 3rd in MVP voting. Lets hear when any of those guys, or most of their 1st options for that matter did the same. Pippen thanks you for your contributions in shedding light on his individual greatness.

3ball has been thoroughly beaten on this topic many times. All that will happen is that he will just no longer post here when he can't respond and then make another thread with the same nonsense.

The fact is that Jordan was never going to allow Pippen take a "1st option" role. He was going to get his shots up regardless of how bad he was playing offensively. On the 92 Dream Team, Jordan took almost as many shots as the next two players combined. Why? 3ball can't answer that and it refutes the notion that Jordan would have allowed Pippen to score more points than be did. Ask 3ball why Jordan took so many FGAs on the Dream Team.

The whole argument is dumb anyway. If Pippen would've set out to score more points than Jordan, he could've. Then you'd have a shot jacking contest vs Jordan and Pippen. The team would've suffered but the Jordanites would be satisfied SMH.

Like kelly oubre jr., who was more of a second-option than klay ever was when both of them were still with the warriors, yes?

[QUOTE=97 bulls;15043770]dumb[/QUOTE]
[Url=https://i.ibb.co/LRYVhvB/IMG-20240928-122514.jpg][img]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/image.php?u=827668&dateline=1624237688&type=thumb[/img][/url]

[QUOTE=97 bulls;15043770]3ball has been thoroughly beaten on this topic many times. All that will happen is that he will just no longer post here when he can't respond and then make another thread with the same nonsense.

The fact is that Jordan was never going to allow Pippen take a "1st option" role. He was going to get his shots up regardless of how bad he was playing offensively. On the 92 Dream Team, Jordan took almost as many shots as the next two players combined. Why? 3ball can't answer that and it refutes the notion that Jordan would have allowed Pippen to score more points than be did. Ask 3ball why Jordan took so many FGAs on the Dream Team.

The whole argument is dumb anyway. [B]If Pippen would've set out to score more points than Jordan, he could've[/B]. Then you'd have a shot jacking contest vs Jordan and Pippen. The team would've suffered but the Jordanites would be satisfied SMH.[/QUOTE]


^^^ you think that delusional garbage beats me??.. It sounds like you still believe in Santa Claus.

Pippen is the only sidekick that was just a "system player", who couldn't dominate, "take over", or command doubles.. This is because his scoring ability was really weak in the halfcourt - his iso ability was the worst of any 90's sidekick BAR NONE - he lacked a breakdown handle or good touch on his jumper - he rarely did "fadeaways", and virtually never did turnaround fadeaways.. And he couldn't pull up off a HARD dribble (going hard one direction and then pulling up on a dime).... These are basic things that he struggled with.. That's why he couldn't reach 15 ppg outside the system and barely 20 in it... And of course, when the game was tight, Pippen was completely unavailable similar to Andre Roberson (a great defender that played for OKC alongside KD).

And the reason that Jordan took the most shots in the Olympics is because this was necessary to maintain the standard of winning by 40+... [I]aka the best scorer should be the focus of the defense - this maximizes everyone else and creates the largest margin of victory[/I].. If the standard was to simply win, then Jordan doesn't need to lead the shot attempts.. .But since the standard was to win by 40+, then the best player has to take the most shots and be the focus of the defense... This is also why Jordan averaged 45 in the 92' 1st Round against the lowly Heat - the standard was to SWEEP - anything less was unacceptable, so MJ had to take the most shots.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;15043732]Thiose guys had a series where they could be called 1st option, (as illegitimate as that bs sounds) meanwhile Scottie had an entire season as 1st option and finished 3rd in MVP voting. Lets hear when any of those guys, or most of their 1st options for that matter did the same. Pippen thanks you for your contributions in shedding light on his individual greatness.[/QUOTE]


MVP voting means literally nothing and is based on things like surprise factor - if Pippen was really the man, then he would've won MVP because he had everything set up for him, aka 55 wins without MJ??.. So how did he not win MVP?... It's because he's just Pippen and everyone knew he wasn't a dominant player or anywhere near the top guys like Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley, Malone and other true franchise players like Shaq, etc.. Everyone knew that he was never on this level, or anywhere near.

Heck, Kukoc hit 5 game-winners during the 94' season, so he was Phil's choice when a bucket was needed - Pippen knew this, but when the spotlight was greatest in the playoffs and New York City, he got embarrassed and couldn't handle being exposed as 2nd fiddle to Kukoc.. He was a baby and it's amazing that MJ won any rings with such a carried, non-dominant and mentally-weak sidekick... Pippen shot 46.9 true shooting in the 93' Finals, so he couldn't handle additional load and therefore forced MJ to average 41 ppg to win... Any team that needs 41 ppg from the 1st option is a bad cast.

Ultimately, the reason that MJ sprinted past Bird and Magic is because they needed super-teams to barely hang with Detroit, while MJ swept them easily with just one other all-star - he won 6 with just Pippen - that's why he's GOAT - he didn't need a team of stars.. Accordingly, MJ's sidekick was always going to get overrated, since he's unbeatable the instant he gets an all-star... He didn't lose 3 straight games for 9 years the instant he got an all-star.. That's goat.

Btw, the media voted for MJ/Pippen like a joint ticket, otherwise Pippen would never be in the top 10 for MVP voting in any season - he never got within 10 ppg of MJ and got less DPOY votes nearly ever year, so how could a carried player get MVP votes??.. It's just the dumb media that voted for MJ/Pip like a joint ticket.

[QUOTE=3ba11;15043799]MVP voting means literally nothing and is based on things like surprise factor - if Pippen was really the man, then he would've won MVP because he had everything set up for him, aka 55 wins without MJ??.. So how did he not win MVP?... It's because he's just Pippen and everyone knew he wasn't a dominant player or anywhere near the top guys like Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley, Malone and other true franchise players like Shaq, etc.. Everyone knew that he was never on this level, or anywhere near.

Heck, Kukoc hit 5 game-winners during the 94' season, so he was Phil's choice when a bucket was needed - Pippen knew this, but when the spotlight was greatest in the playoffs and New York City, he got embarrassed and couldn't handle being exposed as 2nd fiddle to Kukoc.. He was a baby and it's amazing that MJ won any rings with such a carried, non-dominant and mentally-weak sidekick... Pippen shot 46.9 true shooting in the 93' Finals, so he couldn't handle additional load and therefore forced MJ to average 41 ppg to win... Any team that needs 41 ppg from the 1st option is a bad cast.

Ultimately, the reason that MJ sprinted past Bird and Magic is because they needed super-teams to barely hang with Detroit, while MJ swept them easily with just one other all-star - he won 6 with just Pippen - that's why he's GOAT - he didn't need a team of stars.. Accordingly, MJ's sidekick was always going to get overrated, since he's unbeatable the instant he gets an all-star... He didn't lose 3 straight games for 9 years the instant he got an all-star.. That's goat.

Btw, the media voted for MJ/Pippen like a joint ticket, otherwise Pippen would never be in the top 10 for MVP voting in any season - he never got within 10 ppg of MJ and got less DPOY votes nearly ever year, so how could a carried player get MVP votes??.. It's just the dumb media that voted for MJ/Pip like a joint ticket.[/QUOTE]

And again you posted all that to avoid addressing what you quoted. As I said those guys had a series where they could be considered "1st option" which, mind you, is incoherent phsycobabble being applied for a stupid effing reason. Youre not the 1st option just because the best player had an off series or you had a great one. The 1st option is the main guy the team is centered around....by default. Not for a specific match up or because other guys get more shots. Its idiotic to believe Magic was somehow the 3rd option on any team he breathed on. Magic was the sun his teams revolved around. Worthy getting a fmvp doesnt mean he was 1st option, it means he had a great series. That said those guys you mentioned had a good series, wow. Pippen had an entire season as the main guy, which one of those listed did that? And which ones ever voted as high as 3rd in mvp voting? Which one of their 1st options ever had a 3rd place finish? Maybe a couple but definitely not many. Pippen was the best sidekick of his era and amongst the best sidekicks ever. Period.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;15043823]And again you posted all that to avoid addressing what you quoted. As I said those guys had a series where they could be considered "1st option" which, mind you, is incoherent phsycobabble being applied for a stupid effing reason. Youre not the 1st option just because the best player had an off series or you had a great one. The 1st option is the main guy the team is centered around....by default. Not for a specific match up or because other guys get more shots. Its idiotic to believe Magic was somehow the 3rd option on any team he breathed on. Magic was the sun his teams revolved around. Worthy getting a fmvp doesnt mean he was 1st option, it means he had a great series. That said those guys you mentioned had a good series, wow. Pippen had an entire season as the main guy, which one of those listed did that? And which ones ever voted as high as 3rd in mvp voting? Which one of their 1st options ever had a 3rd place finish? Maybe a couple but definitely not many. Pippen was the best sidekick of his era and amongst the best sidekicks ever. Period.[/QUOTE]


You misread the thread title - it says Pippen is the only 2nd option that never TOOK OVER the 1st option role in a series - the "took over" verbage matters because it implies that the player is normally the 2nd option, but in this particular series, they took over the 1st option role/leading scorer... Pippen is the only 2nd option that never did this - he's the only 2nd option that was carried in every series (never took over the 1st option role).

Hope that helps.

And btw, Worthy averaged 31 on 62% in the 87' WCF to carry the Lakers to the Finals, in addition to the FMVP in 88'... So again, all 2nd options were capable of taking over the 1st option role and carrying the team, except Pippen.

And when Pippen was already 1st option in the 94' Playoffs, Ewing easily outplayed him, while Pippen wasn't even the 1st option when a bucket was needed (Kukoc was).

[QUOTE=3ba11;15043838]You misread the thread title - it says Pippen is the only 2nd option that never TOOK OVER the 1st option role in a series - the "took over" verbage matters because it implies that the player is normally the 2nd option, but in this particular series, they took over the 1st option role/leading scorer... Pippen is the only 2nd option that never did this - he's the only 2nd option that was carried in every series (never took over the 1st option role).

Hope that helps.

And btw, Worthy averaged 31 on 62% in the 87' WCF to carry the Lakers to the Finals, in addition to the FMVP in 88'... So again, all 2nd options were capable of taking over the 1st option role and carrying the team, except Pippen.

And when Pippen was already 1st option in the 94' Playoffs, Ewing easily outplayed him, while Pippen wasn't even the 1st option when a bucket was needed (Kukoc was).[/QUOTE]

Nope read it right, and reminded you that Pippen never took over a series, those other guys never took over an entire SEASON. Thats all.

[QUOTE=3ba11;15043838]You misread the thread title - it says Pippen is the only 2nd option that never TOOK OVER the 1st option role in a series - the "took over" verbage matters because it implies that the player is normally the 2nd option, but in this particular series, they took over the 1st option role/leading scorer... Pippen is the only 2nd option that never did this - he's the only 2nd option that was carried in every series (never took over the 1st option role).

Hope that helps.

And btw, Worthy averaged 31 on 62% in the 87' WCF to carry the Lakers to the Finals, in addition to the FMVP in 88'... So again, all 2nd options were capable of taking over the 1st option role and carrying the team, except Pippen.

And when Pippen was already 1st option in the 94' Playoffs, Ewing easily outplayed him, while Pippen wasn't even the 1st option when a bucket was needed (Kukoc was).[/QUOTE]

Nope read it right, and reminded you that Pippen never took over a series, those other guys never took over an entire SEASON. Thats all.